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Gradualist Fool
31st August 2006, 13:29
When I first registered here, I considered myself a Capitalist Democrat, as a result of my continuing knowledge of economics and observation that Democrats are essentially moderate Democratic Socialists. I'm anti-ideology, of course, but still...

I recognized, first, that property is defined as that which a person labors for. But a person doesn't labor for land or natural resources and touching them isn't labor, which implies Georgism, that no land or natural resources can be owned. But, recognizing that theft is founded upon historical theft and the land-value tax can't replace all taxation, I read Rawl's "A Theory of Justice," and gained insight from that. Property rights could be determined according to justice as fairness rather than classical liberal notions of inalienable property rights.

Then, just today, I suddenly realized that if property rights were established in a State of Nature (the ideal), Georgism in a State of Nature would make Capitalism impossible to justify. If we all share equal ownership of natural resources, we must therefore assert equal ownership of all goods created. Because the act of creating goods requires taking ownership of at least some natural resources. On the other hand, recognizing the inefficiency of Communism, I'm a Libertarian Socialist.

In other words, I advocate Communism, in principle, philosophically. Communism, if possible, should be established. However, based upon my knowledge of Economics, I very much doubt so and I hold equal ownership of property to be just as important as equal liberty. Though my beliefs on taxation previously centered around creating equal taxation in terms of opportunity cost, which would be progressive yet far less progressive than our current system of taxation, that might change as I'm sure the economy could allow for greater progressivity, which is, I suppose, desirable.

Still, though, I reject a number of Socialist proposals, not out of principle, but empirical observation, such as gun control, public education, and drug regulation.

I understand that all "Capitalists," aren't allowed anywhere but this forum. Technically, I advocate a mixed market which leans towards Socialism to the extent that the market will allow. If you don't allow for even Libertarian Socialists to be unblocked (excluding those Libertarian Socialists who advocate Anarchism), then, well, damn.

EDIT:

Oh, and, if you accept, it might just be better to approve my other account. I forgot my account with this site, tried to register the name 'Nathyn', then suddenly remembered this account name and logged in. So far, it's been 10 minutes and no email, so not sure if the account got created, but I'd prefer to have the username 'Nathyn,' as I am no longer a "Blue Dog Democrat," so the username is misleading.

somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback
31st August 2006, 14:25
Originally posted by Blue Dog [email protected] 31 2006, 11:30 AM
Still, though, I reject a number of Socialist proposals, not out of principle, but empirical observation, such as gun control, public education, and drug regulation.
What are your stances on those subjects then? And on abortion? Gay rights? Euthanasia? If you'd please clarify these, that would be appreciated ;)

bcbm
31st August 2006, 17:17
Still, though, I reject a number of Socialist proposals, not out of principle, but empirical observation, such as gun control, public education, and drug regulation.

Who proposes gun control?

Why do you oppose public education?

Who proposes drug regulation?

KC
31st August 2006, 17:32
Drug control and gun control are bourgeois liberal - i.e. idiotic - positions.

colonelguppy
31st August 2006, 18:51
so your rejecting common sense economics for a moral position?

Gradualist Fool
31st August 2006, 21:08
Originally posted by s3rna+Aug 31 2006, 11:26 AM--> (s3rna @ Aug 31 2006, 11:26 AM)
Originally posted by Blue Dog [email protected] 31 2006, 11:30 AM
Still, though, I reject a number of Socialist proposals, not out of principle, but empirical observation, such as gun control, public education, and drug regulation.
What are your stances on those subjects then? And on abortion? Gay rights? Euthanasia? If you'd please clarify these, that would be appreciated ;)[/b]
My stance on those issues has always been the same:

Pro gay rights, don't care about abortion either way, and pro-euthanasia, provided it's voluntary.


Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 31 2006, 02:18 PM

Still, though, I reject a number of Socialist proposals, not out of principle, but empirical observation, such as gun control, public education, and drug regulation.

Who proposes gun control?

Why do you oppose public education?

Who proposes drug regulation?
I thought Socialists supported gun control and drug regulation.

I oppose public education just because of what I understand of its results. I've gone to a Community College and a public school. In public school, nobody cared, because we were given limitless chances to fail, there are unlimited second changes, and everything was free. In Community College, if you fail a course, it's in your record for life and because every person cares about school, it's a better learning environment. In Educational Psychology, I learned that student apathy and teacher apathy are both a cycle. When students treat teachers as if they don't care about the curriculum, teachers begin to care less about what they're teaching because they see it as pointless. And when teachers act that way around new students, students have no enthusiasm. The basic premise behind public education is that you can force people to have knowledge that they might not want to have, but that's false.

Public schools are also used by Fascist regimes for propaganda. Even in America, countless schools still teach false nationalist propaganda, such as that Christopher Colombus "discovered," America and they promote a cult of personality around the Founding Fathers. The Pledge of Allegiance is itself propaganda. So, education shouldn't be compulsory. I support subsidies of Community Colleges, so I would also support subsidies for private education. And curriculum should be equally controlled by the government and the schools. On the one hand, you don't want schools teaching nonsense, so they can't have absolute authority, but you can't give government absolute authority either, or else, again, they will use schools for propaganda.


[email protected] 31 2006, 03:52 PM
so your rejecting common sense economics for a moral position?
I didn't say that. And it isn't common sense economics. I simply have a moral position on property rights, but in the mean time, I have to of course advocate what works -- not forsaking stability for principles, the way that Anarchists and Anarchist-based philosophies like Libertarianism do.

Also, last night it occurred to me that pure meritocracy is classlessness. Meritocracy is also the bridge between liberty and equality, because while everyone succeeds of their own accord, studies on social mobility show that the free market does not provide meritocracy.

Publius
31st August 2006, 22:10
Never thought I'd see you post again after you got banned from PW...

What did you do again?

Nathyn
31st August 2006, 22:16
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 07:11 PM
Never thought I'd see you post again after you got banned from PW...

What did you do again?
Lol, picture of Guevara boning Chomsky.

Whitten
31st August 2006, 22:42
I dont understand. You recognise that capitalism and private ownership cannot work under Georgism, which implies communal ownership. If this is so how can any service, including education, be private?

Nathyn
31st August 2006, 23:12
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 07:43 PM
I dont understand. You recognise that capitalism and private ownership cannot work under Georgism, which implies communal ownership. If this is so how can any service, including education, be private?
Because it isn't "owned," by the educational institutions. They're just given stewardship over it for the benefit of society. I support partial privatization of education only for economic reasons, not philosophical reasons. Individual ownership of anything, including an educational institution, is illegitimate. But under the current economic circumstances, government ownership of education is less efficient than private control, so control is yielded.

While social justice should not be forsaken for collective prosperity, stability must be the foundation for any political doctrine. If an economic policy does not provide pareto efficiency and remain in accordance with social justice as much as possible, it should be disregarded.

Privatizing education, with subsidies, in my opinion would improve our educational system while harming no one. Inner cities with currently poor education would receive superior education than they do now.

Zero
31st August 2006, 23:15
The Knights of Lenin will still probably want to keep you restricted, but I'm pretty sure you would fit in with the rest of us.

EDIT:

On the subject of partially privatized education; have you thought about class size? As everyone knows (and probably has experianced firsthand) class size in colleges, as well as high schools, and elementary schools, etc are growing at a out-of-control pace. What about communal schooling, and rapidly decentralised schools controlled and regulated by local unions/communes.

AlexJohnson
31st August 2006, 23:52
Hey Blue Dog, it's SUL. Why havne't I seen you at PW for awhile? We could use you.

OneBrickOneVoice
1st September 2006, 00:14
what's PW?

colonelguppy
1st September 2006, 00:51
its a right wing website where we go, but blue dog got banned for some unkown reaosn to me.

Qwerty Dvorak
1st September 2006, 00:53
ProtestWarrior, I think?

colonelguppy
1st September 2006, 00:55
yeah, thats the one.

Zero
1st September 2006, 01:23
AHAHAHAHAHA OMFG! YES! PWNED! Hackthissite.org got them! I used to hang with them.

http://www.protestwarrior.com/newsletters/05_26_06.php

colonelguppy
1st September 2006, 01:58
hackers are gay.

Publius
1st September 2006, 02:04
Actually, the crack (Not hack. Learn the difference.) was thwarted I believe, and the proprietor of hack this site is probably going to do time, last I heard.

Oops.

which doctor
1st September 2006, 02:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 05:59 PM
hackers are gay.
OOOPSEY DAISY!

You've just earned yourself a warning point.

Zero
1st September 2006, 02:25
I never mentioned hack or crack. I said that they "got" them.

I know the difference between hacker and cracker.

Oh, and FoB, its alright. Everyone knows that the scale of general network security knowlege is directly related to your sexualty.

Does colonelguppy actually give anything to debate?

EDIT: I don't think that they would be able to arrest him if he didn't actually crack the security. What I want to know is why he stole CC# and User info, and why he didn't just deface it. I thought ILF was better than that =P.

Whitten
1st September 2006, 14:04
Originally posted by Nathyn+Aug 31 2006, 08:13 PM--> (Nathyn @ Aug 31 2006, 08:13 PM)
[email protected] 31 2006, 07:43 PM
I dont understand. You recognise that capitalism and private ownership cannot work under Georgism, which implies communal ownership. If this is so how can any service, including education, be private?
Because it isn't "owned," by the educational institutions. They're just given stewardship over it for the benefit of society. I support partial privatization of education only for economic reasons, not philosophical reasons. Individual ownership of anything, including an educational institution, is illegitimate. But under the current economic circumstances, government ownership of education is less efficient than private control, so control is yielded.

While social justice should not be forsaken for collective prosperity, stability must be the foundation for any political doctrine. If an economic policy does not provide pareto efficiency and remain in accordance with social justice as much as possible, it should be disregarded.

Privatizing education, with subsidies, in my opinion would improve our educational system while harming no one. Inner cities with currently poor education would receive superior education than they do now. [/b]
Then have you considered decentralised control of the educational facilities (non-private). Local communities are going to want to produce a labour force that would be productive in their society. Applying the same education criteria from a central government down on everyone is foolish, yes, but the alternative isnt necessarily "privatisation." This may be what you are suggesting, but couldnt think of a better word than "pirvate".

colonelguppy
1st September 2006, 19:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 05:59 PM
hackers are gay.
OOOPSEY DAISY!

You've just earned yourself a warning point.

for saying gay? why?


Does colonelguppy actually give anything to debate?

what exactly are we debating? i was showing my disapreciation for hackers in general, whats debatable about that?

Nathyn
2nd September 2006, 00:34
Originally posted by AlexJohnson+Aug 31 2006, 08:53 PM--> (AlexJohnson @ Aug 31 2006, 08:53 PM)Hey Blue Dog, it's SUL. Why havne't I seen you at PW for awhile? We could use you.[/b]
I got banned.


Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 09:15 PM
what's PW?
Right-wing Capitalist activist group. Because of their zeal for Capitalism, I think "Fascist," would probably be a more appropriate description. One of their leaders is a Objectivist who advocates the elimination of Palestine.

http://www.protestwarrior.com/

They have a forum where I used to pwn them, repeatedly. There was someone on there named Socialist, who was a Socialist (also used to post here too). I made fun of him as well, because I was and still sort of am both anti-Capitalist and anti-Socialist. Being a non-Anarchist Libertarian Socialist, I oppose both Capitalism and authoritarian Socialism. In my opinion, it is not possible to forcefully "establish," Communism, based upon my limited knowledge of mainstream economics. So, with this person named Socialist, I had for a lack of a better word, a "love-hate relationship." (Friend\enemy relationship is a lot better phrase.) So, when he attacked Capitalism, I would often agree with him. Other times, I would ridicule him. Sometimes, we were friends (we sort of are now), but other times, I infuriated him.

ProtestWarrior was generally unmoderated, which was great. However, the moderator finally decided to start acting like Stalin and "purged," the forum of people for dubious crimes. I was banned for posting a photoshopped photo of Che Guevara sodomizing Noam Chomsky as a joke. The thread had a NSFW tag. Other right-wing capitalists had posted X-rated things before without any NSFW tag. So far as I am concerned, I was banned because they are afraid of my intellect.

I was told that they'd let me back if I emailed the admin that I was sorry, but I would not even give them the satisfaction of receiving a fake apology.

Laughably and rather embarassingly for the site's moderators, after their "purge," of the forum's left-wing posters and crazy right-wing posters which make them look bad, many members complained and they unbanned the majority of those who were banned. They didn't unban me, however, despite the fact that a large amount of Capitalists on their forum also agreed that the ban was unjust.


Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 08:13 PM

[email protected] 31 2006, 07:43 PM
I dont understand. You recognise that capitalism and private ownership cannot work under Georgism, which implies communal ownership. If this is so how can any service, including education, be private?
Because it isn't "owned," by the educational institutions. They're just given stewardship over it for the benefit of society. I support partial privatization of education only for economic reasons, not philosophical reasons. Individual ownership of anything, including an educational institution, is illegitimate. But under the current economic circumstances, government ownership of education is less efficient than private control, so control is yielded.

While social justice should not be forsaken for collective prosperity, stability must be the foundation for any political doctrine. If an economic policy does not provide pareto efficiency and remain in accordance with social justice as much as possible, it should be disregarded.

Privatizing education, with subsidies, in my opinion would improve our educational system while harming no one. Inner cities with currently poor education would receive superior education than they do now.
Then have you considered decentralised control of the educational facilities (non-private). Local communities are going to want to produce a labour force that would be productive in their society. Applying the same education criteria from a central government down on everyone is foolish, yes, but the alternative isnt necessarily "privatisation." This may be what you are suggesting, but couldnt think of a better word than "pirvate".
No, because Americans are ignorant. In the north, perhaps worker-owned educational institutions would work, but not in Jesusland. (See map below)

http://lazur.com/news/2006/03/15/if-canadians-ruled/files/jesusland.jpg

I've seen a lot of polls which show that the majority of Americans support some form of creationism and oppose homosexuality.

In fact, to revise my previous statements: education probably should be compulsory and its curriculum should be determined by neither the people nor the government but academic institutions themselves.

Your statement about how people want to provide a productive work force in their society, so democracy would provide that is flawed. I don't believe that direct democracy is "self-regulating," in the interest of the people, based upon how it works in America and Switzerland.

RevSouth
2nd September 2006, 00:58
You need to put a tiny red dot in south-central Jesusland. That is where myself and my comrades tiny little leftist nation will be. And it will rock.

Janus
2nd September 2006, 01:13
Read this.

Read (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=22496)