American SWP

[PRC-UTE]

I'm interested in learning more about the American SWP.

Could non-SWP members tell me if they've had experiences with them, and what they were like?

I'm not looking for responses along the lines of theoretical debates with their party line, but people who've observed them in action or worked with em.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

If you ask some specific questions, I can do my best to answer them. I've had some experience with them, as have many of my comrades.

[PRC-UTE]

ok, were they good to work with?

what was their class composition? their wiki entry says they're rank and file is mostly working class.

what vibe did you get from them? - were they pretty sincere, or did they seem to attract the trendy left / college crowd?

I'm curious about them, cos most of my expierence with Trots would be the likes of the cwi and swp uk, socialist action, but the american swp seems very different. I agree with a lot of their positions on Cuba, Ireland, palestine and how they play down ideological affiliation / labels.

thanks.

[Severian]

Good luck with this thread, though you might want to allow for factional rivalry.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 06:25 AM
Good luck with this thread, though you might want to allow for factional rivalry.
Yeah, that's why I asked for only people who'd worked with or observed the (yankee) swp, that way I can see if it seems credible. I won't take heresay or rumours seriously.

[TC]

I've had some experiances with SWP members when i was in the american anti-war movement, i think they do seem on average middle age or old and working class, i think their politics are reasonable but they're clearly a small group or, at least not one very visible at protests.


Good luck with this thread, though you might want to allow for factional rivalry.


As those go, i'd put them in the 'good trotskyist' catagory, whereas the british SWP are definately in the 'bad psudo-trotskyist' catagory.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I'll give you my thoughts.. I hope to be accurate in dates, numbers and facts, and I invite Severian to correct me if I make any mistakes.


i think they do seem on average middle age or old and working class,

While there are alot of folks in their 40s, 50s and older in the SWP, there are also younger people. I mean it's nothing like the campus-based ISO, but there are students and young workers in the SWP and Young Socialists.

As for being working class, they definitely have workers in their ranks.. but alot of that has to do with their "turn to industry" which was introduced by Barnes in the 70s.

They passed a resolution for their members to take industrial jobs in meat packing, mining, etc. Of course, Barnes himself was exempt from getting a job himself. And while petty-bourgeoisie members joining us workers may seem nice, it's got major flaws. Remember that workers are wage-slaves because we have to work for a wage to live, while these folks joined out a want to lead workers to revolution.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have "turned to industry", but it does have its limitations; and if they were an authentic workers' party to begin with, they wouldn't have to turn to work, since they would have already been there.


i think their politics are reasonable but they're clearly a small group or, at least not one very visible at protests.

They have about 200-300 members, and the reason why they're not usually visible at protests is because they don't participate in most of them. Instead they usually send a few people to sell copies of The Militant (their newspaper) or to set up a table to send books from Pathfinder Press (their printing company).

They do much more work running their election campaigns, selling papers and picketing outside of coal mines in Appalachia and Colorado, Meat Packing plants in the Midwest, etc.

They also hold occassional "Militant Forums", which are basically public meetings.

***

On the SWP, I think it's pretty clear that while they take the correct positions on alot of issues, they are politically bankrupt at this point.

I mean they've been around since 1938, and I think they're still using some slogans and strageties from those days.. They haven't been able to accomplish much, they still do the same things over and over that have failed in the past, and now the SWP is run in alot of ways like a business, to the benefit of Mary-Alice Waters and the decrepit Barnes.

They sold their building in New York not long ago and Barnes got something like a million dollars for a "finder's fee"!

The SWP was alot better under Dobbs, who was a coal miner, and Cannon, who came from the IWW; but it still made alot of mistakes. They did do alot of good things, and were involved in good things; but it's been pretty much down hill since the 70s.

[Severian]

from a past thread, one anarchist poster's opinion of some different groups in the U.S. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=47748&st=0&#entry1292039733) He was making an effort to be fair, I think.


Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 31 2006, 10:52 AM
I invite Severian to correct me if I make any mistakes.....
They sold their building in New York not long ago and Barnes got something like a million dollars for a "finder's fee"!
Source? No, of course there isn't one.

I don't usually respond to this kind of apolitical gossip - for one thing there's so many different accusations and rumors floating around on the web, never based on anything definite that could be definitely refuted. But since you invite me....

The SWP's policy is that everyone on staff receives the same low salary. There's no evidence that there's any exception for Barnes or anyone else. I've seen Jack Barnes taking out the trash at the national headquarters; I've talked to people who've been to his apartment.

There's a COINTELPRO file where FBI asked the IRS to do an audit of SWP leader George Novak; they were sure with all his books and speaking he must have royalties and lecture fees he wasn't reporting. No such luck - they all went to the movement. That's the SWP's tradition, and nobody would put up with Barnes or anybody else doing the opposite.

Actually part of the fight for a proletarian party was adopting a policy that every member of the National Committee has to be willing to go on full-time staff if asked; it's a sacrifice. No more Burnhams! (http://www.marxists.org/archive/cannon/works/1940/party/ch02.htm)

The rumor mills doesn't seem to have any actual inside info on the SWP; they rarely if ever disclose in advance any of the SWP's organizational changes, for example. Developments like the Militant and Perspectiva Mundial merging are discussed at length in various corners of the 'net....after they're publicly announced, but not before.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I've seen Jack Barnes taking out the trash at the national headquarters;

Maybe.. but you haven't seen him at a job anywhere.. 'cause he doesn't have one. I'm pretty sure he never has. Didn't he go straight from Carleton to sponging off of SWPers' dues?

Anyway, I'll get back to you tommorow with a source on the sale of the SWP building in Manhattan.. Of course it's not apolitical if the leader of a so-called workers party is taking $1 million fees off of sales of the party's building for personal use.

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 10:51 PM
Source? No, of course there isn't one.
According to the Anchor Foundation's financial reports (the Anchor Foundation being the money-holder for the SWP) for that year, Barnes got $250,000 as a "finder's fee" from the sale of the West Street building, and another $150,000 "finder's fee" from the purchase of the new location. Mary-Alice Waters received the same amounts.

Miles

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Okay so I was wrong, the close to $1 mill was split between Alice-Waters and Barnes. ;)

[Severian]

Originally posted by CommunistLeague+Aug 31 2006, 10:40 PM--> (CommunistLeague @ Aug 31 2006, 10:40 PM)
[email protected] 31 2006, 10:51 PM
Source? No, of course there isn't one.
According to the Anchor Foundation's financial reports (the Anchor Foundation being the money-holder for the SWP) for that year, Barnes got $250,000 as a "finder's fee" from the sale of the West Street building, and another $150,000 "finder's fee" from the purchase of the new location. Mary-Alice Waters received the same amounts.

Miles [/b]
Oh. Your source was gossip that Miles has been circulating (by PM or e-mail?). Big surprise. His source is unstated. Another big surprise. (I doubt he even saw these statements himself - probably he picked this gossip up somewhere else on the 'net.)

It might well be officially listed that way - a lot of stuff, including the Militant, is officially listed as property of various individuals, including some people who live nowhere near New York, who I know well and can say with confidence are far from rolling in dough.

Occasionally this stuff does come back and bite ya - as with Burnham and Schachtman stealing the name and mailing rights to a magazine they were trustees for, back in the '40s. Ocean Press was founded with similarly stolen property....but it's rare, and trustees are necessary.

I do see another reason (besides pointlessness) why the SWP doesn't respond to this stuff....it'd be easy to say too much.

****

Why apolitical? Not just because this gossip could be retailed by people of any political stripe. Also because its content is a retreat from politics, a rejection of the effort and sacrifice involved.

There's a lot of burned-out ex-members of this and that, and other semi-ex-activists out there. I'm one of 'em myself. But unlike most, I don't invent psedopolitical rationalizations to justify or excuse my burnout.

The whole of Redstar2000 Thought is one example of such a rationalization - no need to actually do anything, since the objective conditions fatalistically determine everything, just wait 'til they're ripe. The Detroit/Cyberspace "Communist League" is another - it also derides effort and sacrifice. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?act=ST&f=7&t=34578&hl=&view=findpost&p=1291853784) This kind of attitude can be seen in CDL's post as well - anyone going on full-time staff is derided as sponging off members' dues.

Based on this conception of party organization - either there should be no full-time staff, or they should be constantly derided as parasites. Good luck building anything significant outside cyberspace, either way.

[RevolutionaryMarxist]

I met a Old SWP Worker near price chopper the other day, passing around pamphlets to people in the parking lot.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Ocean Press was founded with similarly stolen property....but it's rare, and trustees are necessary.

"Stolen property"? Since when do communists uphold "intellectual property"?


This kind of attitude can be seen in CDL's post as well - anyone going on full-time staff is derided as sponging off members' dues.

Nah, I never said that at all... There may be times when full-time mebers are necessary.. but a petty-bourgeois cat, who has never had a job, and who lives (better than most) off of the financial contributions of workers.. that's a different story.


Based on this conception of party organization - either there should be no full-time staff, or they should be constantly derided as parasites. Good luck building anything significant outside cyberspace, either way.

The last thing we need is luck. The FPM, CL and indeed other groups have shown in practice that it is not only possible to organize "real life workers", but that it's possible for those folks to continue working while operating a geniunely revolutionary organization.

The "outside of cyberspace" remark is just an ad hom by a guy that supports one of the "official" parties that's been around for decades, with little to show for it in the way of revolutionary successes.. Similar things where said about the Panthers when they started out, and they quickly became one of the most revolutionary groups in U.S. history.