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which doctor
28th August 2006, 02:40
I've heard lots of the Hezbollah supporters on this site say that it's a working class organization.

How is it a working class organization?

Do they not allow the bourgeois among their ranks?

Janus
28th August 2006, 07:29
Hezbollah is an Islamic party. It has even attacked workers before in the areas which they dominate. It is far from a worker's org.

Severian
28th August 2006, 08:27
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 05:41 PM
How is it a working class organization?
It isn't, and it has a lot of bourgeois support.

You might be interested in this thread, (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=54631) I've now posted some data about the support for Hezbollah from different classes.

Edit: fixed link

Tekun
28th August 2006, 12:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 04:30 AM
Hezbollah is an Islamic party. It has even attacked workers before in the areas which they dominate. It is far from a worker's org.
It is these and other bourgeoisie aspects which seem to be overlooked by a substantial amount of RevLefter's who support such a reactionary organization as Hezbollah

A working class organization does not outline Islamic expansionism and rule in their manifesto
Nor do they discriminate and condemn all Jews for their problems

Forward Union
28th August 2006, 13:19
Originally posted by Janus
It has even attacked workers before in the areas which they dominate.

Can you source that, I certianly don't doubt that it's true, I'd just like to read about it.

I would say this is more of a political discussion, moved

Jamal
28th August 2006, 14:03
It has even attacked workers before in the areas which they dominate.

Not true, first of all, they don't dominate any areas. Second, they are composed of working people, it has social organizations that help the working class a lot (free schools, hospitals, social loan centers, taking care of orphans...) so dont start trying to make them look bad in the eyes of the left!

Forward Union
28th August 2006, 14:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 11:04 AM
Not true, first of all, they don't dominate any areas. Second, they are composed of working people,
Not relevant. The Nazi party was full of proles aswell.

which doctor
28th August 2006, 14:51
Same with the Republican Party in the USA.

Just because it's composed of the working class means nothing.

Jamal
28th August 2006, 14:55
That was not my piont! I was saying that Hezbollah doesn't attack working people in the areas it dominate! I was not implying that Hezbollah is a working class party.

which doctor
28th August 2006, 14:57
Does Hezbollah have any problem with attacking Israeli working-class?

Jamal
28th August 2006, 15:06
Yes, they have!
Hassan Nasralla was asked the same question yesterday at his interview with New TV(the only leftist tv station in Lebanon) and his anwer was: "yes, I do have a problem, we are trying as much as we can to target only military targets."

Marion
28th August 2006, 15:25
Out of interest though, was that him explicitly stating that he was wishing to avoid hitting working-class Israelis, or was it simply him making the common point that everyone makes in conflicts that they are not wishing to hit "civilians"?

Rosa Lichtenstein
28th August 2006, 18:12
FOB:


I've heard lots of the Hezbollah supporters on this site say that it's a working class organization.

How is it a working class organization?

Do they not allow the bourgeois among their ranks?

It is no more or less working class than many of the organisations that most of the members of RevLeft belong to (but considerably more popular, and effective).

And it is probably more working class than Marx, Engels, Lenin, Bakunin, and Trotsky were.

Sure, it is not a revolutionary socialist party, but when have any on the left (except those who belong to deeply sectarian grouplets, like some of those posting here) made that a condition of supporting an anti-imperialist struggle?

YKTMX
28th August 2006, 21:02
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 11:41 PM
I've heard lots of the Hezbollah supporters on this site say that it's a working class organization.

How is it a working class organization?

Do they not allow the bourgeois among their ranks?
Most socialist parties don't have "class conditions" for their membership.

And no one ever claimed Hezbollah was "working class". We have stated the fact that Hezb has more support from the labouring masses of Lebanon than most socialist parties today.

And no, for all the historical morons trying to peddle this lie, the Nazis never had mass working class support. Their support was based on a middle class, ex-army and student base. This is why they could scarcely get more than 30-40 percent of the vote in the elections they fought.

Hezb has mass, broad based support, and membership (let's be clear, it's not clerics who fought the baby-killers off, it was ordinary Lebanese people).

Now, one can explain this with a materialist, Marxist analysis and say that they have support because objectively their idelogy, anti-imperialism and national liberation, is in the class interests of Lebanese workers.

Or you can your best piece of Orientalist, anti-semitic guff out and start babbling about "Islamo-fascism" etc.

Maybe the anarchists and the ultra-left Bordigite Cultists might want to look at the deficiences in their own groups in this regard, as Rosa suggested.

bloody_capitalist_sham
28th August 2006, 21:12
LU

Not relevant. The Nazi party was full of proles aswell.



Same with the Republican Party in the USA.

Just because it's composed of the working class means nothing.

The Nazi's and the Republicans support capitalist imperialism. They support bourgeois class interests.

Hezbollah, oppose capitalist imperialism. They don’t support bourgeois class interests. Meaning they have the same goal as the working class, which is to defeat capitalist imperialism.

Noah
28th August 2006, 21:38
Hezbollah, oppose capitalist imperialism. They don’t support bourgeois class interests. Meaning they have the same goal as the working class, which is to defeat capitalist imperialism.

But they openly support an Isamic state which are oppressive to minorities and force beliefs on other people.

MolotovLuv
28th August 2006, 22:04
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 06:39 PM

Hezbollah, oppose capitalist imperialism. They don’t support bourgeois class interests. Meaning they have the same goal as the working class, which is to defeat capitalist imperialism.

But they openly support an Isamic state which are oppressive to minorities and force beliefs on other people.
Can you source this because I read that even though that was one of the stated goals when the resistance group was first formed, they eventually abandoned the idea of an islamic state to become more inclusive. I'm not sure when these changes started taking place though.

amanondeathrow
28th August 2006, 22:15
Hezbollah, oppose capitalist imperialism. They don’t support bourgeois class interests. Meaning they have the same goal as the working class, which is to defeat capitalist imperialism.

That depends on which section of the ruling class one looks at.

Just as they have always been, the bourgeoisie is usually divided around different issues because different capitalists have different interests. As a result they are always competing and forming alliances, so is the basic nature of capitalism.

There are those members of the Lebanese ruling class that can look past Hezbollah's seemingly egalitarian rhetoric because it strengthens Lebanese nationalism and disdain for Israel.

Others are not as concerned with Israel and would be more willing to finds themselves in an alliance with non Islamic corporations, then allow Hezbollah to add to the list of working class complaints.

All in all, the majority of the ruling class would not normally support Hezbollah and has even tried to suppress it. Hezbollah may not be socialist, but it certainly favors the interests of working people more then that of the ruling class.

Few would attempt to characterize Hezbollah as a force controlled only by the interests of the working class, a group that should always be the left's ally and will serve to bring working class power to Lebanon after Israel has been dispelled completely from the region. However, as of now, the most important interest held by working people of Lebanon is to rid their nation of Israel aggressors. It seems that only "The Party of God" is willing to take on such an endeavor, and they should therefore be given critical support by all rational members of the left.

It's a mistake to think that those who have Hezbollah avatars dream of an Islamic republic like the one proposed by Hezbollah, they simply do not think it would be pragmatic to worry about that now. If Hezbollah does ever try and implement a reactionary government, you can be sure that many, who support their current struggle, including me, will not be silent in our criticism of their Islamism.

People forget that this is a debate over the right of the Lebanese people to begin to develop their own truly independent government, not about what that type of government should. By supporting Hezbollah's struggle, we are supporting the right of the Lebanese working class to actually have that debate and have it actually be put in to practice. Idealism has no place in this conflict.

Vargha Poralli
28th August 2006, 23:28
One thing for sure Hezbollah receives its support from Iran and it aims to create an state in Iranian model.and we shud remember what the theocratic state of iran did to socialsts who fought with in overthrowing of shah.

I just dont understand why followers of islam are carried away by thier religion no matter watever hardships they are in.

Though i must admit Hezbollah is right in its fight against israel . it has more guts than all of other arab govts .

which doctor
28th August 2006, 23:54
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 01:13 PM
Hezbollah, oppose capitalist imperialism. They don’t support bourgeois class interests. Meaning they have the same goal as the working class, which is to defeat capitalist imperialism.
Sure, they may denounce capitalist imperialism, but they support islamo-imperialism!

Imperialism is imperialism regardless of what guise it likes to hide under!

It's easy for you to sit at your computer in your comfy house and "support" an organization on the other side of the earth because you really have little stake in the outcome of the war!

Some people believe that the enemy of our enemy is our ally, that's a very dangerous mistake to make.

MolotovLuv
29th August 2006, 00:12
Originally posted by FoB+Aug 28 2006, 08:55 PM--> (FoB @ Aug 28 2006, 08:55 PM)
[email protected]Aug 28 2006, 01:13 PM
Hezbollah, oppose capitalist imperialism. They don’t support bourgeois class interests. Meaning they have the same goal as the working class, which is to defeat capitalist imperialism.
Sure, they may denounce capitalist imperialism, but they support islamo-imperialism!

Imperialism is imperialism regardless of what guise it likes to hide under!

It's easy for you to sit at your computer in your comfy house and "support" an organization on the other side of the earth because you really have little stake in the outcome of the war!

Some people believe that the enemy of our enemy is our ally, that's a very dangerous mistake to make.[/b]
Of course the enemy of our enemy is our friend is a bad and stupid way of thinking, but your right, it is easy for us to sit at our computers and support an organization, just as it is easy for you to oppose them even though your house and family wasn't blown away by Israel. Like I said before, instead of *****ing about Hezbollah and spewing the same crap as the corporate media, why not push for a more inclusive, secular hezbollah. I don't care whether a comrade is christian, jewish, muslim or athiest, as long as they respect my beliefs and we are fighting for the same cause, we'll be just fine. I don't think Palestine and Lebanon have the luxury of sitting around debating like we do, they are suffering, not us, so I will support their resistance.

which doctor
29th August 2006, 00:24
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 04:13 PM
Of course the enemy of our enemy is our friend is a bad and stupid way of thinking, but your right, it is easy for us to sit at our computers and support an organization, just as it is easy for you to oppose them even though your house and family wasn't blown away by Israel.
I'm not neccassairly opposing them, I'm just thinking critically about them as an organization.

Emperor Ronald Reagan
29th August 2006, 01:40
A working class organization does not outline Islamic expansionism and rule in their manifesto

Except Nasrallah just gave an interview on New TV mere days ago in which he categorically rejected the idea of any religious state in Lebanon. It is obvious to anyone with even cursory knowledge of Hezbollah that Nasrallah is responsible for steering the party away from the idea of an Islamic republic, which was supported by some figures in the party and by some factions in Iran. But of course, you don't know anything about the interview because you do not understand Arabic. Thank you though, for demonstrating why people without Arabic language skills should spare us their idiotic pontifications until they acquire the skills (Arabic language) to have any real concrete knowledge about the Middle East.

Noah
29th August 2006, 02:04
Except Nasrallah just gave an interview on New TV mere days ago in which he categorically rejected the idea of any religious state in Lebanon.

So then why is a Muslim cleric, trying to get into power again?

If he didn't care about Islam and cared more for the people of Lebanon, he would take off his cleric clothing and say I am Lebanese regardless of whether I am Muslim, Christian or Mandaean and we have to all work together. But that isn't the image he is putting across.

He is saying I am a Muslim Cleric and his interests are to win support and gain power, now I don't know about anyone else here but I wouldn't trust a Muslim cleric to be leading a country.

I mean come on, his party is 'The party of God' and you are trying to tell me his party does not centralise itself upon Muslim morals and teachings even if 'Nasrallah has steered it away from Islam'?

The working class people need nothing to do with organised religion, never mind an organised religious party.

Oh and by the way, I watch Arabic news and speak to Arabic people and countless time when sitting with my parents, have I heard him talking about a Muslim state.

I posted a video from youtube when he mentions this, when I find it again I will post it up here.

Hala ib Nasrallah my arse.

Rosa Lichtenstein
29th August 2006, 02:33
Noah, read The Peasant War in Germany; Engels did not make it a condition that only atheists can fight oppression. Muntzer was as religious as Nasrallah.

JimFar
29th August 2006, 02:41
Rosa wrote:


Noah, read The Peasant War in Germany; Engels did not make it a condition that only atheists can fight oppression. Muntzer was as religious as Nasrallah.

Hey, back in the 1980s, the Sandanista government in Nicaragua had several Catholic priests serving as cabinet ministers. Should we have opposed the Sandanistas for that reason?

Rosa Lichtenstein
29th August 2006, 02:58
Jim, good point, as usual.

Severian
29th August 2006, 10:39
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 12:03 PM
We have stated the fact that Hezb has more support from the labouring masses of Lebanon than most socialist parties today.
You could make a similar statement about the Democratic Party, or Blair's New Labor.

But as I've documented, Hezbollah's has about 40% support from all class levels of the Lebanese Shi'a population. (Based on a poll of "which party do you prefer", multiple-choice.) Link earlier in this thread.

Clearly its support is not class-based.

YKTMX
29th August 2006, 17:33
Originally posted by Severian+Aug 29 2006, 07:40 AM--> (Severian @ Aug 29 2006, 07:40 AM)
[email protected] 28 2006, 12:03 PM
We have stated the fact that Hezb has more support from the labouring masses of Lebanon than most socialist parties today.
You could make a similar statement about the Democratic Party, or Blair's New Labor.

But as I've documented, Hezbollah's has about 40% support from all class levels of the Lebanese Shi'a population. (Based on a poll of "which party do you prefer", multiple-choice.) Link earlier in this thread.

Clearly its support is not class-based. [/b]
This is false.


A national poll conducted in Lebanon about two weeks ago by the Beirut Center for Research and Information showed a sharp rise in support for Hezbollah since the Israeli invasion. Eighty-seven percent of all respondents supported Hezbollah's military response (including 89 percent of Sunnis and 80 percent of Christians). Five months ago, just 58 percent supported Hezbollah's right to remain armed.

When did the Democrats ever have 87 percent support? Or when did New Labour, even in Blair's best days, ever have 87 percent support?

The only parallel I can imagine is Bush's 90 percent approval rating after 9/11 - and that's been shown to be completely anomalous.

However, this isn't the main issue.

Hezbollah is a national liberation force, so of course its membership is not going to be "class" orientated. You wholeheartedly support the Chinese and Cuban national liberation movements, and one could scarcely suggest they would past the "proletarian" test, surely?

The point remains however that they have significant support amongst the Shia whom they provide with social services - and they form the backbone of a wider national resistance to imperialist movement. In this regard, their staunch opposition to Zionism and imperialism, they are amongst the minority in the Arab political groupings. Most are co-opted, as the response to the Israeli assault showed.

Severian
31st August 2006, 08:48
Originally posted by YKTMX+Aug 29 2006, 08:34 AM--> (YKTMX @ Aug 29 2006, 08:34 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 07:40 AM

[email protected] 28 2006, 12:03 PM
We have stated the fact that Hezb has more support from the labouring masses of Lebanon than most socialist parties today.
You could make a similar statement about the Democratic Party, or Blair's New Labor.

But as I've documented, Hezbollah's has about 40% support from all class levels of the Lebanese Shi'a population. (Based on a poll of "which party do you prefer", multiple-choice.) Link earlier in this thread.

Clearly its support is not class-based.
This is false.


Eighty-seven percent of all respondents supported Hezbollah's military response (including 89 percent of Sunnis and 80 percent of Christians).

When did the Democrats ever have 87 percent support? Or when did New Labour, even in Blair's best days, ever have 87 percent support? [/b]
This is apples and oranges. 87% is support for military resistance to Israel, not support for Hezbollah as a party. And of course you didn't even try to break that down along class lines.

As for who supports Hezbollah as a party, here's a poll of Lebanese Shi'a:
Table 6 - SES is socio-economic status
Preferred Party High SES Medium SES Low SES
Amal 35 22 39
SSNP 21 24 14
Hezbollah 44 53 47
Total 100 99 100

Info on source (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=54631)
The researcher comments ""When SES was correlated with political preference, the association was extremely negligible...."


Hezbollah is a national liberation force, so of course its membership is not going to be "class" orientated. You wholeheartedly support the Chinese and Cuban national liberation movements, and one could scarcely suggest they would past the "proletarian" test, surely?

Awful, awful analogy. Just shows how completely rotten your cheerleading attitude towards these "Islamic" rightists is, that you'd compare 'em to the Chinese and Cuban revolutions. (And also how your capitulation to bourgeois nationalism is enabled by your false "state capitalist" analysis - which says these revolutions took place within the limits of capitalism.)

In both China and Cuba, there certainly was a strong class correlation to who participated. Certianly neither had nearly as much upper-class support as Hezbollah! For the simple reason that both, from early on, carried out agrarian revolutions, taking the property of the landlords...and threatening that of the capitalists. There's no way to thoroughly take on the economic as well as political domination of imperialist finance capital - without taking on the domestic exploiters as well.

In both China and Cuba, the revolutionary forces were drawn largely from poor peasants - rural exploited toilers. There was also an element of wage-workers, especially in Cuba where much of the rural population was proletarian (sugar), and where a general strike clinched the revolutionary victory!

So in fact it is characteristic of national liberation movements - as opposed to reactionary bourgeois nationalist movements - that people join along class lines.

You probably know this perfectly well, which is why you've tried to give Hezbollah such a membership. Problem is, that doesn't exist in reality.


The point remains however that they have significant support amongst the Shia whom they provide with social services -

"the Shi'a." A religious-sectarian community divided into different classes.

And yes, their support does seem largely based on providing social services. Including basic things like water and power, which are used by all classes of the population.

Now, does that make them a progressive movement - that their support is largely based on patronage, charity, and vote-buying? No, and you ought to ask where they get that money from.

(Their ability to effectively get that money to the villages and neighborhoods does reflect their relative lack of corruption....but the main problem with ruling-class parties and politicians has never been their personal corruption, but rather their political agenda and the class interests they serve. Anti-corruption demagogy is often characteristic of the ultraright.)


and they form the backbone of a wider national resistance to imperialist movement. In this regard, their staunch opposition to Zionism and imperialism, they are amongst the minority in the Arab political groupings. Most are co-opted, as the response to the Israeli assault showed.

In other words, they're against imperialism, and that's what really matters to you.

Communists, in contrast, start with what we're for: the self-liberation of the working class. We start by asking what increases the confidence and strength of working people - not necessarily, or first of all, what weakens imperialism.

YKTMX
31st August 2006, 17:15
In both China and Cuba, the revolutionary forces were drawn largely from poor peasants - rural exploited toilers. There was also an element of wage-workers, especially in Cuba where much of the rural population was proletarian (sugar), and where a general strike clinched the revolutionary victory!

Silly.

Peasants are not "exploited" in the Marxist sense of the word. Peasants don't automatically have the same interests as the working class. You should read a guy called Trotsky on this issue - fascinating.

As for the "general strike" clinching "victory". Castro was always calling general strikes. Most of these never happened, precisely because the middle class leadership and the peasant base was totally alienated from the Cuban proletariat. There was no serious attempt to either arm the Cuban workers, nor was there an attempt by the Cuban workers to create their own autonomous institutions of power within the factories. This was certainly not a working class revolution, and its bizarre that you should talk about "land reform" when trying to prove the working class nature of the revolt!

Land reform is a PEASANT demand. The fact that Castro ceded this demand proves the "influences" he was under. The fact that he never raised the issue of workers' control over production or the destruction of the bourgeois state also says much.

The Cuban revolution was a petty-bourgeois nationalist revolt against imperialism.


In other words, they're against imperialism, and that's what really matters to you.

It matters to me when Imperialism is the dominant issue, yes. And I'd suggest that imperialism is the dominant issue when the baby-killers are swarming above you and over the borders.


Communists, in contrast, start with what we're for: the self-liberation of the working class.

Rhetoric. You patently don't believe this to be the case. For you, the class can be liberated by armed doctors and the peasants.


We start by asking what increases the confidence and strength of working people - not necessarily, or first of all, what weakens imperialism.

The two are inseperable.

Rosa Lichtenstein
31st August 2006, 20:22
Some comrades might like to read this, some not (since it contradicts a few too many of their illusions):



The defeat of the regional superpower could yet open the way to a wider settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict

George Galloway in Beirut

Thursday August 31, 2006

The Guardian

As the smoke clears from the battlefield of the 34-day war in Lebanon, it would be a mistake to count the cost only in fallen masonry and fresh graves. All is changed, changed utterly, by the defeat that the whole of Israel is now debating, from the cabinet through the lively press to the embittered reservists at the falafel stall. Practically the only person in the world who claims Israel won the war is George Bush - and we all know his definition of the words "mission accomplished".

Reports that the Hizbullah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, expressed regret this week at having underestimated Israel's reponse to the capture of two of its soldiers were misleading. In fact, Nasrallah thanked God that the attack came when the resistance movement was prepared, as he was convinced Israel would have otherwise invaded later in the year at a time of its choosing.

If the fierce thicket of the Iraqi resistance stopped the Bush war spreading to Syria then the extraordinary Hizbullah victory has surely made the world think again about an attack on Iran. But the main - and maybe the most welcome - shift in the 40-year-old paradigm of the Israeli-Arab conflict is the puncturing of the belief in a permanent and unchallengeable Israeli military superiority over its neighbours and the hubris this has induced in Israeli leaders - from the sleek Shimon Peres through the roughhouse of Binyamin Netanyahu to the stumbling Mr Magoo premiership of Ehud Olmert.

The myth of invincibility is a souffle that cannot rise twice. Over the past week I have picked my way through the rubble of Dahia in downtown Beirut, now resembling London's East End at the height of the blitz, and across the south of Lebanon in towns such as Bint Jbeil whose centres look as if they have been hit by an earthquake. Here the litter of banned weapons lies like a legal time bomb - evidence of war crimes alleged by the UN and Amnesty International that in a genuine system of international justice would put Israel in the dock at The Hague. This, together with the beating Israel has received in international public opinion, is the collateral damage suffered alongside military humiliation.

Israel announced the capture of Bint Jbeil several times, but in truth it never held the town - or anywhere else for that matter - throughout the war. Despite raining down thousands of tons of high explosive on homes, schools, hospitals, roads, bridges, ambulances, UN posts, oil storage depots, electricity plants and virtually every petrol station south of Beirut (the bombers seemed to have a crazed thirst for petrol stations, while telling the world that they were kindly inviting the residents of south Lebanon to get into their cars and leave their homes for a little while), the Israelis were given a severe mauling by Hizbullah fighters when it came to boots on the ground.

Paradoxically, some believe that all this has blown open a window in which it is possible to glimpse the possibility of a comprehensive settlement of the near-century-old conflicts which lie behind the recent war. Now that the status quo ante has been swept away, we may even see an FW de Klerk moment emerge in Israel (and among its indispensable international backers).

The leader of the white tribes of apartheid South Africa waited until the critical mass of opposition threatened to overwhelm the position of the previously invincible minority, and sold the transfer of power on the basis that a settlement later, under more severe duress, would be less favourable. Israel's trajectory is now heading towards such a moment.

A comprehensive settlement now would of course look much like it has for decades: Israeli withdrawal from land occupied in 1967; respect for the legal rights of Palestinian refugees to return; the emergence of a real Palestinian state with east Jerusalem as its capital - a contiguous state with an Arab border, with no Zionist settlements and military roads, and with internationally guaranteed Palestinian control over its land, air, sea and water. In exchange there would be Arab recognition, normalisation and, in time, acceptance of Israel into the Middle East as something other than a settler garrison of the imperial west.

Just as you can't be a little bit pregnant, a settlement can't be a little bit comprehensive. Attempts - like the one more than a decade ago in Oslo - to obfuscate, shave and sculpt such a package to the point of unrecognisability will founder on the new reality.

The Arab world is waking up to its potential power. It has seen the Iraqis confound Anglo-American efforts to recolonise their country, the unbreakability, whatever the cost, of the Palestinian resistance, and now the success of Hizbullah. If there is no settlement there can only be war, war and more war, until one day it is Tel Aviv which is on fire and the Israeli leaders' intransigence brings the whole state down on their heads. Nor is it only Israel that will pay the price for continued conflict: the enduring injustice of Palestinian dispossession has already poisoned western-Muslim relations and helped spill violence and hatred on to our own streets. There is still time to choose peace. But make no mistake, with the victory of Hizbullah, a terrible beauty is born.

• George Galloway is the Respect MP for Bethnal Green and Bow

www.georgegalloway.com

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,,1861645,00.html

Severian
1st September 2006, 06:21
Before I respond to YTMX, I want to point out he's managed to completely bury and forget the topic of the thread.

The fact is, Hezbollah's class composition has nothing in common with the class composition of the "Chinese and Cuban national liberation movements". YTKMX has dropped any claim it does, in favor of a general peasant-bashing-fest. Apparently he prefers the bourgeoisie - what other conclusion can ya draw, when he endorses bourgeois parties and rejects the worker-peasant alliance?

The fact is that Hezbollah doesn't fight for land reform or anything else that challenges the interest of the propertied classes, even within bourgeois-democratic limits. And the historic fact is, that has always been a characteristic of national liberation movements.


Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 08:16 AM

In both China and Cuba, the revolutionary forces were drawn largely from poor peasants - rural exploited toilers. There was also an element of wage-workers, especially in Cuba where much of the rural population was proletarian (sugar), and where a general strike clinched the revolutionary victory!

Silly.

Peasants are not "exploited" in the Marxist sense of the word.
Wage-labor was only one form of exploitation. There's a chapter of Capital where Marx compares forms of exploitation under capitalism, feudalism, and slavery.

But I'll try to not to do too much quotesmanship....poor peasants produce wealth - in some period of history, they feed the rest of society. Today, working farmers produce huge amounts of wealth.

They receive a relatively small amount of that as their own income. The rest of it is appropriated by banks - as interest, by landlords - as rent - and by agribusinesses that buy and sell from farmers - who have the leverage to set unfavorable prices.

That is precisely "exploitation, in the Marxist sense." Value - necessary-value = surplus-value.

Apparently the British SWP does no Marxist education at all.


Peasants don't automatically have the same interests as the working class.

True! For one thing, rich peasants are exploiters - of tenants and hired laborers. Peasants are a spectrum of classes - at one end shading into the bourgeoisie, at the other into the working class.

Poor peasants have many interests in common with the working class. You should read a guy called Lenin on this. His strategy - of allying with the peasants, against the landlords and vacillating bourgeoisie - proved better than Trotsky's.

Yours - of rejecting alliance with working farmers in favor of an alliance with the bourgeoisie - wasn't Trotsky's however. It was the Menshevik approach. And heck, at least they had the excuse of dealing with a semi-feudal country.

(Before 1917, Trotsky was somewhere between the two, organizationally and politically.)


As for the "general strike" clinching "victory". Castro was always calling general strikes. Most of these never happened, precisely because the middle class leadership and the peasant base was totally alienated from the Cuban proletariat.

Um, no. One general strike failed. (Which was a major setback for the revolutionary forces.) There were, IIRC, 3. Including, again, one at the moment of the triumph of the revolution, which completed the downfall of the regime and blocked all the plans for a coup and/or other maneuvers to get rid of Batista while saving capitalist rule.

You don't know anything about the history of the Cuban revolution - and worse, you don't want to. If you did - I'd suggest you take a look at the Santa Clara uprising, also. But if you'd prefer to repeat mindlessly that workers were not part of making the Cuban revolution....


Land reform is a PEASANT demand. The fact that Castro ceded this demand proves the "influences" he was under.

Similarly Lenin? And how about those peasant soldiers in the October insurrection, not to mention the Civil War?



(Severian)We start by asking what increases the confidence and strength of working people - not necessarily, or first of all, what weakens imperialism.
(YTMX)The two are inseperable.

I'm sorry, but that's obviously not true, if you'll just take a moment to, figuratively, look around you at the world.

There are more than two forces in the world. Some of them may weaken imperialism - heck, conflicts among imperialists can do that - without benefitting working people.

Has the Iraqi resistance, in its attacks on imperialism, strengthened the Iraqi working class? On the contrary, it's terrorized, attacked workers - and divided the class along deepening sectarian lines.

Sometimes the enemy of my enemy...is also my enemy.

But you clearly just don't care. Certainly the interests and class-consciousness of working people is not where you start from, in any of your arguments.

YKTMX
1st September 2006, 17:16
The fact is, Hezbollah's class composition has nothing in common with the class composition of the "Chinese and Cuban national liberation movements".

I agree with this, as I've said.

Hezbollah is far more proletarian than either of those movements.


Apparently he prefers the bourgeoisie - what other conclusion can ya draw, when he endorses bourgeois parties and rejects the worker-peasant alliance?

I don't reject worker-poor peasant alliances, and I've never said anything of the sort. I think cross-class alliances can work, for instance in the Russian Revolution, if the working class can lead the peasantry.

If its middle class intellectuals in league with peasants, then that's something completely different.


The fact is that Hezbollah doesn't fight for land reform or anything else that challenges the interest of the propertied classes

And? I've never even attempted to paint them red.


Today, working farmers produce huge amounts of wealth.

All agriculture produces 4% of world GDP.

In any case, the point is not, for Marxists at any rate, whether people "have it bad". I've no doubt Severian's lauded peasant folks suffer. But suffering does not make a revolutionary class, as I'm sure he's aware. Marxists asks "what are the class interests of the peasantry and do they conflict with the interests of the urban proletariat"?

The working class is the revolutionary socialist class because its objective class interests lie in the overthrowing of the bourgeoisie and a communist society. Since most peasants, quite correctly, favour "more land" and a fairer price for their crop, they may not favour communism. These are contradictions that have all "raised themselves" in history. The Bolsheviks dealt with them. But they were never under any illusions.

The fact that Sev wants to forget all this so he can excuse Stalinism in Cuba is rather sad.


Similarly Lenin? And how about those peasant soldiers in the October insurrection, not to mention the Civil War?

Well, exactly. Lenin also, if you'll recall, implemented workers' control and created a new workers' state around the Soviets. Castro didn't. Mostly because no such institutions existed at the time, not to mention the fact that the Cuban Stalinists never desired it. They dreamed of "planned, nationalized" economies, where enlightened people with degrees and specialist "knowledge" could lead the "masses" towards "socialism".

Workers' control wasn't a phrase in his vocabulary. Neither is it in yours, it seems.


Has the Iraqi resistance, in its attacks on imperialism, strengthened the Iraqi working class? On the contrary, it's terrorized, attacked workers - and divided the class along deepening sectarian lines.

Well, even I get bored. Once again 75% of "non-military" operations are aimed at the occupation forces. The rest are aimed the Iraqi police and army (do you consider these targets legitimate?). And a small minority is aimed at civilians, with the goal of creating civil war. I don't consider these groups part of the national resistance. And neither does the resistance.

The only people pleading with us to believe this fairytale are you, Miles, Blair, Bush and that guy who reads the "news" for Murdoch.

The Grey Blur
1st September 2006, 17:24
Originally posted by Emperor Ronald [email protected] 28 2006, 10:41 PM

A working class organization does not outline Islamic expansionism and rule in their manifesto

Except Nasrallah just gave an interview on New TV mere days ago in which he categorically rejected the idea of any religious state in Lebanon. It is obvious to anyone with even cursory knowledge of Hezbollah that Nasrallah is responsible for steering the party away from the idea of an Islamic republic, which was supported by some figures in the party and by some factions in Iran. But of course, you don't know anything about the interview because you do not understand Arabic. Thank you though, for demonstrating why people without Arabic language skills should spare us their idiotic pontifications until they acquire the skills (Arabic language) to have any real concrete knowledge about the Middle East.
:lol:

Hezbollah is Iran

Every major decision Hezbollah make is decided in Iran

Marion
1st September 2006, 17:24
Just in passing...

Lenin also, if you'll recall, implemented workers' control
Its necessary to be absolutely clear that the implementation of workers control was the work of the working class. The Bolsheviks merely legalised it once it had been started (and then quickly began clamping down on it). Its a very important distinction.

Rosa Lichtenstein
1st September 2006, 17:30
Spot on, Marion.

I know YKTMX would agree with you on that.

YKTMX
1st September 2006, 18:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 02:25 PM
Just in passing...

Lenin also, if you'll recall, implemented workers' control
Its necessary to be absolutely clear that the implementation of workers control was the work of the working class. The Bolsheviks merely legalised it once it had been started (and then quickly began clamping down on it). Its a very important distinction.
Absolutely. You're right.

I was just trying to make a distinction between political formations there viz a ve Castro's movement and the Bolsheviks led by Lenin.

Severian
3rd September 2006, 02:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 08:17 AM

The fact is, Hezbollah's class composition has nothing in common with the class composition of the "Chinese and Cuban national liberation movements".

I agree with this, as I've said.

Hezbollah is far more proletarian than either of those movements.
We're going around in circles here. Due to YTKMX's dodging around and avoiding the main issues.

The facts again:
As for who supports Hezbollah as a party, here's a poll of Lebanese Shi'a:
Table 6 - SES is socio-economic status
Preferred Party High SES Medium SES Low SES
Amal 35 22 39
SSNP 21 24 14
Hezbollah 44 53 47
Total 100 99 100

Info on source (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=54631)

YKTMX
3rd September 2006, 04:32
Originally posted by Severian+Sep 2 2006, 11:19 PM--> (Severian @ Sep 2 2006, 11:19 PM)
[email protected] 1 2006, 08:17 AM

The fact is, Hezbollah's class composition has nothing in common with the class composition of the "Chinese and Cuban national liberation movements".

I agree with this, as I've said.

Hezbollah is far more proletarian than either of those movements.
We're going around in circles here. Due to YTKMX's dodging around and avoiding the main issues.

The facts again:
As for who supports Hezbollah as a party, here's a poll of Lebanese Shi'a:
Table 6 - SES is socio-economic status
Preferred Party High SES Medium SES Low SES
Amal 35 22 39
SSNP 21 24 14
Hezbollah 44 53 47
Total 100 99 100

Info on source (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=54631)

[/b]
And this proves what? If I've read the data correctly, it says this:

If we consider high SES the "middle class", the middle SES the organised (better off) workers and the lower SES the poorer workers, unemployed and lumpen sections, then while Hezbollah has a comfortable plurality amongst all groups. But its support is strongest amongst organised workers and the lower sections.

However, as I've said repeatedly, contrary to Sev's moaning about me "dodging the issue", the support for anti-imperialist movements rises sharply amongst all sections of the population when the issue of imperialism dominates. This was shown in the polls at the time of war when ever Lebanese Christians were shown to support Hezb!

I'm not interested in electioneering for Hezbollah. I'd much rather the more overtly secular, leftist forces in Lebanon prevailed in the bourgeois electoral process. Of course I would.

The whole point of these debates is whether you support the Lebanese, Palestinian and Iraqi national resistance movements. I've never said I sign up to the Hezbollah's political programme, so the question of their electorial success hardly matters to me.

I would defend them against the comrades who seem, sadly, to spend the majority of their time attacking resistance movements rather than the Imperialist aggression that provokes, and indeed demands, those movements.

Severian
4th September 2006, 07:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 07:33 PM
If we consider high SES the "middle class", the middle SES the organised (better off) workers and the lower SES the poorer workers, unemployed and lumpen sections, then while Hezbollah has a comfortable plurality amongst all groups. But its support is strongest amongst organised workers and the lower sections.
Or with less self-delusion: We could consider high SES to mean the "upper class," middle SES to mean "middle-class," and low SES to mean "lower class", in the sense that bourgeois social "scientists" - like the one who conducted this study - usually mean these terms.

And of course plenty of those in the "Low SES" category would be those peasants who YTKMX despises so much. Since Hezbollah's support is strong in the south Lebanese villages, and the Lebanese Shi'a generally are disproportionately rural.

I've read the whole study, and that's clearly what the reseacher means: Hezbollah's support is if anything strongest in the middle class. (But the difference is so slight she says there's "negligible correlation.")

What's more, this ain't any third-of-the-population in each classification; the lowest category includes most of the population.

How do I know? Because the researcher states she had to oversample the high and medium categories in order to get enough subjects in 'em to yield meaningful results. In other words, a random sample would yield few subjects in those categories - they're a small part of the population.

***

But thanks for that example of how deep you're willing to go in self-delusion. You see the Hezbollah you want to exist, not the one that actually does.

More fun with similar self-delusion: Remember that wonderful Nasrallah interview where he graciously promised to accept support from socialists? Fake as astroturf, and everybody admits it now. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=54996) So why did so many leftists pick it up and circulate it as confirming their fondest hopes? Why did some people cling to it with such determination?