Confused, and wondering

[LuXe]

Hello, im new to these forums. Hope im welcome here :)

Ok to start here,. Im very insecure about where I'm standing here, on one side, there is capitalism and on the other there is communism.. I want a better society than there is now, there is too much poverty and the differences between rich and poor is huge. I want changes. Capitalism... Well, I hate it. It sure isnt good enough, I see "the big ones", the RICH people trampeling on the poor. And Im pissed about it. Communism, oh.. I dont really know what to say, nor do I know YOUR definiton of communism, but I see communism as;

"Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a future classless, stateless social organization, based upon common ownership of the means of production and the absence of private property. It can be classified as a branch of the broader socialist movement. Communism also refers to a variety of political movements which claim the establishment of such a social organization as their ultimate goal."

I have seen ALL the countries that have been under commy-influence or have been ruled with communism, and it just doesnt work. I mean, it looks good on paper, but it just doesnt cope with reality. Why? Humans arent perfect, thats a fact. All the commy-revolutions have been particularely bloody too.

I see communism as a way out of the negative circle.. But I dont know if it will work, all those things I have read about. All the effects communism has had on other countries seems a bit frightning,.

But here I am, asking left-wing people... I hope to recieve objective answers despite my slight tipping on the capitalistic side. because face it, capitalism isnt that bad.. Nor is communism.

I wonder where I stand.. I am tipping on either side here.
Maybe I am somwhere in between?

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 12:59 PM




Your deffinition of communism is pretty clear and most here would agree with it.


I have seen ALL the countries that have been under commy-influence or have been ruled with communism, and it just doesnt work.

Non of these countries had the material conditions for communism (industrialization). However as a whole these movements were entirely progressive compared to their fedual like state predecessors. They brought modernization to backwards countries.


I mean, it looks good on paper, but it just doesnt cope with reality. Why? Humans arent perfect, thats a fact. All the commy-revolutions have been particularely bloody too.

The French Revolution (the first bourgeois or capitalist revolution) was extremely bloody. It's hard to overthrow the feudal influences and traditions for something completely new and different.

The point is, its not humans that make communism impossible. It's the pre conditions of the area pushing for it and the forms of organization the people take.


But I dont know if it will work, all those things I have read about.

What did you read? Bourgeois literature on the USSR/China should not be trusted.

You might try looking up some more succesful and inspiring instances in history such as the Spanish Civil War or the Paris Commune.


because face it, capitalism isnt that bad

Then why are you here?

[LuXe]

Point is, capitalism isnt good enough...

But I will listen to your advice, and try to pick up on some more objective litterature.

Here in Norway we have one political movement (Red election-alliance) but they only get about 2% of the votes.

I'm more of a communist than a capitalist, so that ive said it.. Im only debating with myself on which way to turn.

[Phugebrins]

Norway is one of the best countries in the world to live, and it's certainly not one of the most capitalist. In fact, much of what you value today has come about not because of capitalism, but because of the pressure from the left.

For you, capitalism may not be that bad. But for billions across the world, it is terrible - and that is the reason you must not waver in the middle, but be prepared to say that every human being has the right to life, that people's fate should not be decided by the fickle markets but their own efforts, that capitalism, while better than feudalism, *has* to be replaced by socialism.

[LuXe]

Well "I" may have a good life in a good country, but I see all the others. In the capitalistic countries.

The good thing about Capitalism is that ANYONE can make it, and be rich, but the odds are still great. Though this is outweighed by the fact that the distance between rich and poor is huge.

Communism is good because everyone is equal. But the life of people living in social countries may be kid of "ordinary" and "gray". Everything, all the same, every single day.

I want to be a communist, but is the above true? If it is, it may be a small price to be however...

[Global_Justice]

welcome to the site mate. if you haven't already, i suggest reading what some communist theorists have written and it will help you have a better understanding of 'how' communism would work. i take it your quite young, there is no rush, i was posting on here and interested in communism for months before i read anything written by marxs, but it certainly gives you a better understanding of the 'how'.

as for why it hasn't worked in the past. one reason is, as violencia.Proletariat said, is to do with the structure of the countries. obviously, in capatalism, it's the poor that suffer the most and the vast majority of countries that have had communist revolutions were undeveloped countries at the time. a small island like cuba has little chance of competing with economic superpower enemies like the US.

[violencia.Proletariat]

The good thing about Capitalism is that ANYONE can make it, and be rich, but the odds are still great.

This isn't true at all. Getting rich in capitalism without having been born into a higher class is a matter of chance. Chances only go out to certain people at certain times, therefore, not everyone has the ability to trascend class.


Everything, all the same, every single day.

What does this have to do with communism? The fact is you would have much more leisure time and access to a multitude of resources never available to the common person. I can't really see how you can claim it would be repetitive compared to capitalism. Afterall, capitalism is wake up, work, sleep.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 01:12 PM
Point is, capitalism isnt good enough...

But I will listen to your advice, and try to pick up on some more objective litterature.

Here in Norway we have one political movement (Red election-alliance) but they only get about 2% of the votes.

I'm more of a communist than a capitalist, so that ive said it.. Im only debating with myself on which way to turn.
Welcome. :)

To get to the point:


The good thing about Capitalism is that ANYONE can make it, and be rich, but the odds are still great.

Untrue.

If your parents raised you in a trailer park on substaneance wage, and you were abused, and got bad grades in Primary, secondary and tertiary schools, you're most likely not going to be making the "big bucks", so to speak. Your classs background greattly influences the options you have in life. Though there are those extrodinary cases where a poor person may strike it rich, they are most likely very gifted, and these cases are hard to find.


Though this is outweighed by the fact that the distance between rich and poor is huge.

Right.

Communism is good because everyone is equal.


Mmm-hmm.


But the life of people living in social countries may be kid of "ordinary" and "gray". Everything, all the same, every single day.

Actualy, that's a misconception. People would be able to lead their own lives: they can be creative, explore new areas of intrest, make love, make conflict, make a family, make art, help others, help themselves, etc. They simply wouldn't be able to do so on the backs of others. Understand?

[LuXe]

Can anyone suggest some good reading material for me then? I need to involve myself further into this if I am to grasp how this works and what benefits the people. After all; Knowlede is power.

[Phugebrins]

"but the odds are still great." (My emphasis)
I think our friend did actually mean "the odds against it are still great" or "the odds are small".

[Janus]

Can anyone suggest some good reading material for me then?
Start out with the really basic stuff like the Manifesto or Socialism: Utopian and Scientific,etc.

You can find most of this stuff in www.marxists.org and also check the archives i here for more links

[LuXe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 09:59 PM
"but the odds are still great." (My emphasis)
I think our friend did actually mean "the odds against it are still great" or "the odds are small".
Ok :blush: Maybe I formulated myself in a wrong manner... English is not my main language you see.. :P

I of course meant the odds are small.

[Phugebrins]

Yeah, another thing to note is not to take things too personally on these boards. People will jump on you if they interpret anything in what you say as something they disaggree with. It's generally not out of spite, just a desire to explain or debate things.

[namepending]

Karl Marx for me is the voice of reason- no offence to anyone but I would forever be an appeasing progressive if all communism had was these thousands of internet clowns ...

Just Kidding, seriously though,

Das Kapital is the ultimate analysis of capitalism--

and the best place to go on the web for all the texts and information and stuff is

The Marxist Internet Archive's Encyclopedia of Marxism (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/index.htm)

[Global_Justice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 07:54 PM
Well "I" may have a good life in a good country, but I see all the others. In the capitalistic countries.

The good thing about Capitalism is that ANYONE can make it, and be rich, but the odds are still great. Though this is outweighed by the fact that the distance between rich and poor is huge.

not really. and the only way to get rich would be to exploit other people. nobody (maybe you could argue sports is an exception) gets rich without exploiting other people.


Communism is good because everyone is equal. But the life of people living in social countries may be kid of "ordinary" and "gray". Everything, all the same, every single day.


that really isn't true. i don't understand why some people think this. 'everyything the same every day' that sounds like capatalism to me. working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week doing the same boring repetitive job that pays just enough to get by on and no more. its capatalism that is the same every day.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 05:22 PM
Can anyone suggest some good reading material for me then? I need to involve myself further into this if I am to grasp how this works and what benefits the people. After all; Knowlede is power.
Check out Workers Councils by Anton Pannekoek, The Conquest of Bread by Peter Kropotkin, Marx of course.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 09:22 PM
Can anyone suggest some good reading material for me then? I need to involve myself further into this if I am to grasp how this works and what benefits the people. After all; Knowlede is power.
Manifestoon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znMkqEnO6d4)

[roguetrick]

I'm new to the forums but I know what your going through boss. Remember to learn slow and don't think everything will make sense all of a sudden. If you let the meme of self identification take over you too quick, you'll just be a weekend revolutionary untill some new idea takes hold.

Always remember the key to all of this, that everybody deserves to live.