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namepending
27th August 2006, 19:04
For instance the International Communist Current denounces the Hezbollah resistance and virtually blames it for initiating war in the middle east merely by defending it's home...

It seems a contradiction for the ICC to denounce self-defensive violence when it's own policy is one of no-compromise, obviously violent revolution (for without reformism one cannot influence the class it wishes to remove other than by forcing its hand with violence).

Secondly, corporate media / Israeli allegations seemingly supported by the ICC, such as the "overwhelming targeting of civilians" by Hezbollah and "Hiding Among Civilians" are rendered completely false by the numbers supplied the media itself (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060814/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel_1097), that is, 119 Israeli soldiers, 39 Israeli civilians (of whom 90% supported the holocaust according to polls). Meanwhile, though Lebanon has been, as one of it's officials promised, "turned back 20 years" and a growing number of Lebanese have been dug out of the scarred ground, already in excess of 1000, Hezbollah has reported barely a handful of deaths of its own and has functioned better than the Lebanese government itself or the UN, handing out relief and preventing through sheer power the UN or the government from disarming, evacuating or forcing promises from their organization, suggesting to anyone who can put two and two together that Hezbollah was not beneath the rubble of civilian homes as Israel promised.

Even knowing this, ICC may or may not have a point with its accusation of Hezbollah as being un-proletarian (which it is) and therefore being irrelevant or even somehow detrimental to any revolutionary progress (which to me seems dubious).

So in my eyes, the discussion from a revolutionary point of view, has to do with whether third world resistance to neo-colonialism (such as in Mexico and often in South America, also perhaps Africa) and Imperialism (What we see in Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan and soon North Korea, Iran and Syria) is something to be supported, even encouraged, even if obviously it is the reaction of a feudal or semi-feudal or vulgar capitalist population to high imperial capitalism. If it is, would revolution as Mao thought be considered something that may occur when imperial capitalist societies suffer terrible losses to underdeveloped societies they are trying to exploit? And if that is the case, what of the proletariat in developed countries?

This seems an important subject to consider, as the proletariat is apparently more class unconscious then ever historically (we are definitely deep in the fascist/reactionary part of the reactionary/reformism cycle), while third world resistence to imperialism seems to be in a golden age.

rouchambeau
27th August 2006, 20:57
I see no reason why we shouldn't try to help out anti-capitalist movements regardless of their class make-up.

Severian
28th August 2006, 02:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 10:05 AM
So in my eyes, the discussion from a revolutionary point of view, has to do with whether third world resistance to neo-colonialism (such as in Mexico and often in South America, also perhaps Africa) and Imperialism (What we see in Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan and soon North Korea, Iran and Syria) is something to be supported, even encouraged, even if obviously it is the reaction of a feudal or semi-feudal or vulgar capitalist population to high imperial capitalism.
This is not a new subject. And really, there isn't any specially new development that should change the communist approach to it, either.

The approach should be: what advances the interests of working people? In each case, does this "third world resistance" increase the class consciousness of working people in that country, increase our class' possibility of advancing our own interests, liberating ourselves?

The capitalists are no longer a progressive class in the world today - no minor capitalist class is going to successfully break up the imperialist system. Only the working class can do that.


This seems an important subject to consider, as the proletariat is apparently more class unconscious then ever historically (we are definitely deep in the fascist/reactionary part of the reactionary/reformism cycle), while third world resistence to imperialism seems to be in a golden age.

See, I think this is dead wrong. On the one hand, working class struggle is beginning an upswing. From the massive protests by immigrant workers in the U.S. - the biggest political strike in this country ever - to strikes and ghetto riots in France - to developments in Venezuela and across Latin America.

On the other hand, bourgeois nationalist resistance - including "Islamic fundamentalism" - has definitely run into a dead end. After decades of trying, they've been able to overthrow the "apostate" regime and take power....only in Afghanistan, Sudan, and Iran. They've now lost Afghanistan and Sudan.

The rise of al-Qaeda and its attacks on the "far enemy" - like 9/11 - is a symptom of desperation over the failure to carry out "Islamic revolution" anywhere. And as usual with terrorism, it's backfired.

Also: why line up with something just because it's seems strong this week? I know it's a reality many people will, "nothing succeeds like success".

But if you're committed to the liberation of working people - you should realize that can only be self-liberation. Just because some other gang of exploiters are in conflict with Washington - doesn't mean that conflict serves our interests.

Anyway, I think it's useful to go back and look at what the historic communist position on this is. They really were dealing with most of the same problems as we are today.

But maybe I'll start another thread on that - Edit: OK, here it is. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=55038) With the early Communist International's resolutions on this subject.

ComradeBen
28th August 2006, 03:09
Now, the real problem is that most of these "terrorists" are Islamic fascists. Islamic Fascism is designed, like fascism to appeal to idealistic young people with a utopian future where the world will be "cleansed". It really started with the Iranian revolution in 1979. Islamic Fascism has many names such as "Islamic fundamentalism", "Islamofascism" or "Islamism". Islamism aims to impose religious Sharia Law on the whole world, ending freedom of religion, ending human rights and civil liberties, ending freedom of speech, and ending freedom of sexuality.

Organizations and countries that have been labeled Islamofascist include Al-Qaeda, the current Iranian government, the Taliban, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, and Hezbollah.

As you can tell I despise this belief of ISlamism, in all forms. Islam itself is a very oppressive religion, oppressive towards homosexuals, women, and anyone who doesn't follow Islam. It takes away freedoms and individuality. So, no I do not think that communists or leftists of any kind should support such an oppresive and anti-freedom organizations or countries, just because they hate capitalist imperialism and the west.

namepending
28th August 2006, 05:37
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 08:10 PM
just because they hate capitalist imperialism and the west.
My radical-z net/parecon style contemporary world affairs teacher grew very angry at me a few months ago when I printed out a blowup of the muslim cartoons from Europe as a joke on islamic and general religious insanity (I am a very hard atheist). Her course was mainly a justification of Islamic culture and problems with capitalism. Of course, she was a great teacher and it was a great course.

Didn't Trotsky do some popular front strategy for confronting fascism in Germany? I thought it was Weimer Capitalism and Comintern parties?

if its
because they hate Hitler and the Nazi's vs.
because they hate capitalist imperialism and the west

I don't see much of a conflict

More Fire for the People
28th August 2006, 05:39
Yes! There can be unity between the working class, both agricultural and industrial, and poor peasants as long as the working class leads the peasanty. I would check out Gramsci's works on working class hegemony.

namepending
28th August 2006, 16:31
Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 27 2006, 10:40 PM
as long as the working class leads the peasanty
exactly, but the vanguard is significantly smaller, more divisive and less organized than the Islamic movements even in isolated cases... (the majority of proletarians are unaware or unmotivated to independence I think from the failure of the left to have an effective program, so "vanguard" is a term that seems a bit lame given reality) and the Islamic movements have tremendous influence on the general majority of their class. At this point any association with these movements would be one of a sucker fish latching on to a shark IMO.

From the perspective of an actual future occurring revolution here in the west, you wouldn't be compelled to support non-proletarian classes or you could just lead them, but there is no revolution here and not even a worthy vanguard by any ones definition-

Recent currents of the left have been strong, but strongly reformist. The only physical blows or even physical organization against the Bourgeois have been from the Islamist/Nationalist movements in the middle east, as well as the curious state movements in South America.

The Great Threat to Bourgeois Supremacy here in the west, according to the Bourgeois Media in the year 2006, is Super Bourgeois Ned Lamont, who is "encouraging terrorists" by calling for a transfer of military forces to another part of the world in favor of US established self-oppression in Iraq
and writing articles in the Wall Street Journal promising businesses favorable treatment.

Dean
30th August 2006, 17:41
I think that these popular movements like Hezbollah should definitely be allied with. That does not mean that all of its stances need to be taken; the important thing is that the people are getting together and forming a grassroots deense organization which is a lot less authoritarian and racist than peopel are saying. Though Nasrallah has called for the extermination of all jews, like Hamas most of Hezbollah does not consider itself anti-semitic.

LoneRed
5th September 2006, 07:55
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 05:58 PM
I see no reason why we shouldn't try to help out anti-capitalist movements regardless of their class make-up.
so we dont end up like all the sell out parties out there, out of the hundreds, a small few are good. People can be anti-capitalist but they still can be reactionary.

Luís Henrique
5th September 2006, 21:09
Tailing after those bourgeois anti-imperialist movements is always wrong.

If the working class has independent organisations, it is possible that it is in its own interest to rally with bourgeois anti-imperialists against the common enemy, provided that they do not subordinate to or dissolve within the bourgeois organisation.

If the working class has no independent organisations, that's what should be focused: building independent working class organisations.

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
5th September 2006, 21:17
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 11:47 PM
On the one hand, working class struggle is beginning an upswing. From the massive protests by immigrant workers in the U.S. - the biggest political strike in this country ever - to strikes and ghetto riots in France - to developments in Venezuela and across Latin America.
Ah, but this is "reformist": they don't wear military uniforms, they don't kill people, they don't hide in the jungle, they have no sex appeal, they aren't selfless idealist who give their lives to "save" other people... they are definitely unromantic.


On the other hand, bourgeois nationalist resistance - including "Islamic fundamentalism" - has definitely run into a dead end. After decades of trying, they've been able to overthrow the "apostate" regime and take power....only in Afghanistan, Sudan, and Iran. They've now lost Afghanistan and Sudan.

But they do the "real thing": they use Kalashnikovs, they strive for personal power but know how to obey absurd orders, they don't loose time organising people, they live quickly and die young. How can one resist?


Also: why line up with something just because it's seems strong this week? I know it's a reality many people will, "nothing succeeds like success".

I think it may be worse: some people seem to seek failure, as long it is spectacular failure.

Luís Henrique

Nothing Human Is Alien
6th September 2006, 02:59
Tailing after those bourgeois anti-imperialist movements is always wrong.

If the working class has independent organisations, it is possible that it is in its own interest to rally with bourgeois anti-imperialists against the common enemy, provided that they do not subordinate to or dissolve within the bourgeois organisation.

If the working class has no independent organisations, that's what should be focused: building independent working class organisations.

Agreed.. and of course this is nothing new...

"The relationship of the revolutionary workers' party to the petty-bourgeois democrats is this: it cooperates with them against the party which they aim to overthrow; it opposes them wherever they wish to secure their own position." - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels

"... as communists we will only support the bourgeois freedom movements in the colonial countries if these movements are really revolutionary and if their representatives are not opposed to us training and organising the peasantry in a revolutionary way. If that is no good, then the communists there also have a duty to fight against the reformist bourgeoisie." - Lenin

"When Africa becomes economically free and politically united, the monopolists will come face to face with their own working class in their own countries, and a new struggle will arise within which the liquidation and collapse of imperialism will be complete." - Kwame Nkrumah