Uday and Qusay - they're dead!

[schumi]

I just heard on the news that the two sons of Saddam Hussein are dead...

This is what CNN writes about them:

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein's sons, Qusay and Uday, were killed Tuesday in a gunbattle with U.S. troops in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul, the commander of U.S. ground forces in Iraq said.

Their bodies were identified from "multiple sources," Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez told reporters in Baghdad.

"They died in a fierce gunbattle," Sanchez said. "They resisted detention and the effort of coalition forces to apprehend them."

When asked whether the $15 million bounties on both Uday and Qusay will be paid, Sanchez said, "I would expect that it probably will happen."

Uday, 39, and Qusay, 37 -- key members of Saddam's regime -- were among four people killed during the battle.

Sanchez said U.S. forces learned about the whereabouts of the brothers from a walk-in Iraqi tipster Monday night.

Sanchez said the 101st Airborne Division, Special Forces and Air Force assets participated in the six-hour operation on a residence near the northern edge of the city. (Map)

A military task force formed to hunt for Saddam and his top supporters led the raid, supported by extensive armor and air cover, officials said.

Two-hundred members of the 101st Airborne Division also joined the assault, and no one was captured, a U.S. official told CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.

The military went in and engaged in a "big firefight," the official said. (Gallery: The firefight scene)

A senior Pentagon official said one of the other two bodies appeared to be that of a teenage boy. U.S. officials noted that Qusay has a teenage son. The other body recovered appeared to be that of a bodyguard.

A U.S. official said Saddam was not among them.

U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld briefed President Bush about the Mosul operation after it was over, a senior defense official said.

"Part of the reason he discussed this operation in particular was because he knew it would get a lot of attention, and that first reports are often wrong," the official said.

The initial White House reaction was cautious, though one official said confirmation that the two sons were killed would "brighten" spirits after recent criticism that the Bush administration exaggerated the former Iraqi regime's threat.

Both in deck of cards
Saddam and his sons have been fugitives since their government collapsed after a U.S.-led invasion in March. (Profiles: Qusay Hussein, Uday Hussein)

Mosul is a Kurd-controlled city about 110 miles [176 kilometers] from both Syria and Iran. Intelligence officials said they are investigating whether Uday and Qusay were attempting to find a way out of Iraq.

Retired Army Brig. Gen. David Grange said the deaths of Uday and Qusay would deal a psychological blow to Saddam loyalists attacking U.S. troops.

The hunt for Saddam in Iraq is led by a U.S. Special Operations team -- code-named Task Force 20 -- with support from the CIA. The task force, which also took part in the rescue of Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch, includes covert special operations forces from the various U.S. military services. (Lynch homecoming)

Qusay and Uday are the second- and third-most-wanted Iraqi leaders, and both are in the card deck of most-wanted Iraqis issued to U.S. troops in Iraq. Uday is the ace of hearts and Qusay the ace of clubs. (Flash interactive: Iraq's most-wanted)

Qusay has been the son widely perceived as most likely to have succeeded Saddam.

With Iraq preparing its defenses in the run-up to the war, Qusay was put in charge of four key areas, including Baghdad and Tikrit -- his family's tribal home.

When the war began, he was in charge of the country's intelligence network, the 80,000-strong Republican Guard and 15,000-member Special Republican Guard, which was responsible for protecting Saddam and his family.

Uday has a reputation for violence that included torturing Iraqi athletes who did not meet expectations. He ran the dreaded Saddam Fedayeen security force.

He was also in charge of the nation's Olympic committee, edited a leading newspaper, Babel, and was head of Youth TV, the country's most popular channel.

Just before the war, Uday warned that Iraqi troops would make the mothers of U.S. soldiers "weep blood instead of tears."

Correspondents Rym Brahimi, David Ensor, Jamie McIntyre, John King, Barbara Starr and Harris Whitbeck, and producers Pam Benson and Kevin Flower, contributed to this report.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/07/22/...sons/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/07/22/sprj.irq.sons/index.html)

[Felicia]

yeah, I heard aboiut that earlier today.

I don't quite know what to think though.....

[Valkyrie]

Yeah, the synchronicity of events is astounding.... They're calling upon Blair's resignation and also looking for something to impeach Bush with (as if that's hard to do)..... Jessica Lynch touches-down with much fanfare on her hometown soil at the VERY EXACT MOMENT IN TIME Uday and Qusay are shot dead by US Forces in Occupied Iraq. HA!

Remember.... they killed Osama and Saddam at first too.... several times.


(Edited by Paris at 9:02 am on July 23, 2003)

[bluerev002]

A bounty? GRRR! Bastard!

"What was the prize on his head?!"- RATM

[Felicia]

Quote: from bluerev002 on 9:01 pm on July 22, 2003
A bounty? GRRR! Bastard!

"What was the prize on his head?!"- RATM
15 million I think, not too sure on that number...

[commieboy]

CNN said it was 25 million.

[Charlie]

Yeah, there was some protest amongst Iraqis cocnerning their deaths as well, but according to Washington it's "a great day for the people of Iraq"...

[ONE]

15 million each I think.

I just don't believe anything anymore... for all we know, they probably wrote the script way before they "liberated" Baghdad. How did Baghdad fall so quickly while other smaller cities that were defended by inferior troops resisted more fiercely? One conspiracy theory states that there was a deal being worked out between Saddam and the US before the fall of the Iraqi capital.

On "liberation" eve, US forces attacked the hotel used by foreign journalists, as well as the Al-Jazeera and Abou Dhabi TV networks' headquarters located elsewhere in the city. Is it a coincidence that all media in the city was attacked on the same night? what happened the next day? Baghdad fell.

This could all be a coincidence, but some say the attacks took place to deflect attention away from what was really going on, an escape route for Saddam or whatever else happened that facilitated the fall of Baghdad. (something to this effect - I read this long ago)


Either way, (***my crazy theory now***) my point is that Odai and Qusai's deaths are probably orchestrated and agreed upon by both, Saddam(& sons) and the US. This way, the US claims a victory at a time most convenient to them, and Odai and Qusai can now start their new lives somewhere in the US, Europe or elsewhere.

Now to predict the future, the US will get a tip regarding the whereabouts of Saddam and will take him out in a dramatic fashion. They will not take him alive - It's all in the script. they're saving the best for last and for the most appropriate time when they REALLY need a victory to showcase to the American public and international community. Saddam will soon after join his sons to start a new life as a used cars slaesman.

ahhhh, who knows. The one thing that pisses me off is that it's always the innocent people that suffer the most. It seems like assholes, megalomaniacs, dictators, greedy bastards and other similar breeds of humans get everything they want and get away with everything while honest hardworking, moral and ethical people get screwed.

Sorry for the ranting and raving... I feel much better now! :)

[Sensitive]

I can think of one very good thing that will come out this story... The American propaganda media can no longer refer to the Iraqis that attack the occupying US troops as "Saddam Hussein Loyalists".

And they can drop the "pockets of resistance" while they're at it.

[Urban Rubble]

First off, I can't believe someone would say that they don't know what to think. Two sadistic murderers are dead, and people are conflicted ? Who cares who killed them, I don't care if Hitler himself rose from the grave and killed them, I would still smile.

Hooray for those sick pieces of shit being dead. At least one good thing came of this war. Well, Saddam is out too, that's cool.

Now don't attack me for supporting the war, I don't. I am just happy that we at least got rid of them, we are bad, and so were they.

As for the bounty, it was $15 million for the sons, $25 million on Saddam. I heard the U.S intends to pay. Some Iraqi just came the fuck up.

About the Badhdad falling so easily thing, this is my own personal conspiracy theory. I think that by the time the U.S got Badhdad, the Iraqi army knew they were done. Perhaps Saddam, knowing they wouldn't be winning a battle of Baghdad, called all his troops off to reorganize, possibly to coordinate Guerilla attacks ? Since the end of the war we have been hearing reports of increasing Guerilla attacks against U.S troops. I think it is entirely possible that they were smart about it, pulled back their troops and are now taking it more slow. Let us think we've won, wait till we send alot of the troops home, and gradually start a guerilla capaign against us.

I keep wondering, are these Guerilla attacks being carried out by Saddam loyalists or are they simply Anti Saddam but also anti U.S troops ? I would hope it's the latter.

[Danton]

Urban Rubble is right, these two sick bastards lived in grotesque decadence all their pampered lives whilst the people of Iraq suffered.. my enemys enemy and all that.

The interesting thing is the two brothers who despised each-other vehemently were together at the time, my guess is the ace of spades will be captured/killed sooner rather than later....



"Victoria o muerte"

[RevolucioN NoW]

The world is a better place with Saddam's sons gone for good, now the Iraqi people have nothing to fear from their old despots, and can focus on their new american supplied regime, they never seem to get a break hey.

It does seem rather interesting that the said 'urban warfare' in Baghdad never eventuated, possibly Saddam was trying to save his own ass and ran of to the mountains.

two more US troops were killed after the deaths of Uday and Qusay, possibley indicating that the resistance isnt a 'fascist reargaurd element' and is rather becoming a legitimate national resistance movement for the liberation of the Iraqi people.

[ONE]

Quote: from RevolucioN NoW on 11:09 am on July 23, 2003
The world is a better place with Saddam's sons gone for good,

No doubt - but are they gone????

[chamo]

Don't worry, the US military is going to prove they killed the sons by issuing pictures of the deceased, something they objected to during the war.

The amazing thing is that the US government believes this is going to end all the guerilla attacks on the occupying forces, one a day, and these deaths are being used as stupid propaganda to show that the deaths of US soldiers will end.

How will they? America believes that it can eliminate ideas by killing people. They don't realise that some of the resistance is from anti-US guerillas and not Saddam loyalists.

[ONE]

Quote: from happyguy on 11:29 pm on July 23, 2003

... They don't realise that some of the resistance is from anti-US guerillas and not Saddam loyalists.

Maybe they do, but it's not politically smart for them to admit that.

By the way, I just saw a couple of pictures of dead Uday and Kusay.... I couldn't tell if it was in fact them. It's kinda like the before and after pictures of some diet plan - its never the same person!

[Lefty]

Well, they issued pictures of the dead today. Hooray... kinda. I'm glad they are dead. Bastards. However, one wonders what sort of retaliation this will bring?

[RevolucioN NoW]

The pictures ive seen show a bearded Qusay, disguised so as to avoid detection, however i have seen no pictures of Uday, it seems Aussie TV saw the graphic, self inflicted headshot wounds as disturbing.

I can see why people would think that the faces may not be those of the butchering duo however they were disguised to stop the very death that just occured.

Indeed, now the US can stop blaming 'fascist reargaurd elements' for the deaths of US soldiers.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from felicia on 12:24 am on July 23, 2003
yeah, I heard aboiut that earlier today.

I don't quite know what to think though.....


I know exactly what to think, good ridance to the murdering bastards. If any deserve to die it is them and daddy...

How will they? America believes that it can eliminate ideas by killing people. They don't realise that some of the resistance is from anti-US guerillas and not Saddam loyalists.

And you with your extensive knowladge of the Iraqi people and there internal politics are in a position to make a statment like that? I find it far more likley that all it is as the USA has said is pockets of resistance, simply because the only resistance is in the area where Saddam came from. And those who have been caught and or killed have been from there. It is not how you guys are making out, a massive revolution against the USA. The fact that people are saying this shows there ignorance.

Either way, (***my crazy theory now***) my point is that Odai and Qusai's deaths are probably orchestrated and agreed upon by both, Saddam(& sons) and the US. This way, the US claims a victory at a time most convenient to them, and Odai and Qusai can now start their new lives somewhere in the US, Europe or elsewhere.

What a heap of steaming bullshit...

[ONE]

Either way, (***my crazy theory now***) my point is that Odai and Qusai's deaths are probably orchestrated and agreed upon by both, Saddam(& sons) and the US. This way, the US claims a victory at a time most convenient to them, and Odai and Qusai can now start their new lives somewhere in the US, Europe or elsewhere.

What a heap of steaming bullshit...

Maybe it is, but you never know when it comes to politics. Are you so naive to believe everything you hear - especially from a government that hasn't, even for once, told the truth??? I'm not saying my theory is THE truth, it's only a crazy theory as I called it, but what makes you so sure that the US in fact killed those psychos?

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from ONE on 3:40 pm on July 25, 2003


Either way, (***my crazy theory now***) my point is that Odai and Qusai's deaths are probably orchestrated and agreed upon by both, Saddam(& sons) and the US. This way, the US claims a victory at a time most convenient to them, and Odai and Qusai can now start their new lives somewhere in the US, Europe or elsewhere.

What a heap of steaming bullshit...

Maybe it is, but you never know when it comes to politics. Are you so naive to believe everything you hear - especially from a government that hasn't, even for once, told the truth??? I'm not saying my theory is THE truth, it's only a crazy theory as I called it, but what makes you so sure that the US in fact killed those psychos?

I am not 100% sure that the US have killed them, far from it, I do not however feal the need to make paranoid suggestions about conspiricys etc.

[Valkyrie]

Booooo!!!!!

I don't know why you people are all hooray-ing. That's exactly why the US won't obtain membership in the International Criminal Court - so they can walk into any country they please, occupy it, steal their resources and kill off the former government. Doesn't matter if Saddam wasn't democratically elected or if they themselves are brutal murderers, or even if they had WMD's --- and that's the real issue-- They Don't-- and they did all this anyway!!!! --- There are UN protocols and Universal Human Rights that the US has to abide by also. And The People have to MAKE them abide by it or face the consequnces.

No matter how the chips fall now, Bush has won himself the next election, Saddam or No Saddam. Hooray? Fuck'in A.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Paris on 2:08 am on July 26, 2003
Booooo!!!!!

I don't know why you people are all hooray-ing. That's exactly why the US won't obtain membership in the International Criminal Court - so they can walk into any country they please, occupy it, steal their resources and kill off the former government. Doesn't matter if Saddam wasn't democratically elected or if they themselves are brutal murderers, or even if they had WMD's --- and that's the real issue-- They Don't-- and they did all this anyway!!!! --- There are UN protocols and Universal Human Rights that the US has to abide by also. And The People have to MAKE them abide by it or face the consequnces.

No matter how the chips fall now, Bush has won himself the next election, Saddam or No Saddam. Hooray? Fuck'in A.

Actually no thats not the fucking issue! :angry:

The issue is that two brutal murderers/fascists are now burning in hell, and good riddance to the bastards. Perhaps now that they know this the Iraqi people will feal it is safer to establish a better system of government, and regain control of there nation so the US troops can bugger of home and life can return to normal in Iraq, but with a considerably higher standard of living.

AK47

[Guardia Bolivariano]

I agree 100% with what Paris said.

Besides the human rights issue that prooves US tropps are no better than the former iraqi regime It's important to remember nothing is black an white in this war.

The main objective of the killing of these 2 individuals is to somehow please the occupied and destroy the moral of the iraqi resistance.

BUT the iraqi resistance is mix of loyalties

First you have arab fighters from other countries that fight for jihad. Saddam having a secular regime they couldn't care less If his son's are dead they were never apart of the "islamic standard" in the first place.
They'll keep fighting until the invaders are of of holy arab land.

The anti us and anti saddam fighters. Obviously this sector is pleaced with the death of Hussein's sons but does that change the fact that the foreigners that bombed and ocupied thier country will remain, of course not. So they will keep fighting and the death of of 2 of their enemies just gives them more time to focus on the other problem, american troops.

Finally the Saddam loyalist who are the most afected by these news.
Well the truth is that by the excesive use of force (200 men , cobra helicopters and antitank missiles) they have managed to create martyrs for the fadayeen.
And already the Saddam loyalist have sworn revenge.

What did they achieve with this more violence...

[Guardia Bolivariano]

so the US troops can bugger of home and life can return to normal in Iraq, but with a considerably higher standard of living.



It would be wonderfull if that scenario could actually produce Itself.
But the truth is american troops don't pull out of "conquered" territoty.

They still have troops in Japan, Germany a quick reaction force in Panama a base in Cuba etc....

And I rreally doubt they'll leave the oil reserves to a nationalised iraqi industry.

No their plan is to destro the OPEC.

[MikeyBoy]

I think Che said it best when he said,

"One, two, many Vietnams!"

American has fallen into a new Vietnam. The people fight not because of their old regime but because American occupation will be unable to supplant anything except domination. Democracy has to start with the Iraqi people's own self-determination, the regime is dead, end the occupation!

[Valkyrie]

Look Ak47. It is not up to the US and Britain to decide that they have preeminent powers outside any international consensus to depose of any government they dislike and replace it with those of their own choosing. That is the REAL issue. it doesn't matter the pretext of incidentals. Since when is it ok to declare war on another nation by false allegations?

If Uday and Qusay were hunted down for being accused of war crimes than they should have been put on trial in the ICC. That's what is was created for. That the US does not want to participate in it does not give them rights to murder them instead. Isn't this pretty much the same thing as the CIA did to Che? Besides that, a 14 year old boy was killed.. he is not responsible for the actions of his father, Qusay or Saddam.

[ONE]

lying

I am not 100% sure that the US have killed them, far from it, I do not however feal the need to make paranoid suggestions about conspiricys etc.



Was the bush administration under fire for the 1 American death/day in Iraq? - Yes - 100%

Is the news of Kusay and Uday's deaths beneficial to the US government and the Bush administration? Yes - 100%

Is it possible that the US government would lie about the deaths to gain more support and alleviate some of the pressure and criticism? who knows, but given the US' track record - It is possible - I'll give that 50%

What are the chances that Saddam and sons struck a deal with the US just before the fall of baghdad? I don't know, but let's say 20%.

I hope you can see that it is not pure paranoia that drives me to come up with crazy theories! It is possible that this whole thing is a lie. it MIGHT be far fetched, but anything is possible in the wild world of politics.

[ONE]

Quote: from MikeyBoy on 3:44 am on July 26, 2003

... The people fight not because of their old regime ...


I agree! There are a lot of Arab fighters in Iraq, and none of them are there to restore the old regime. Some of these fighters are not Moslem extremists who are fighting a Jihad, but rather, Arab Nationalists that don't want to see foreign troops (especially Americans) on Arab soil. It doesn't matter if the US kills Uday, Kusay, or even Saddam himself, their resistance will persist.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Paris on 4:49 am on July 26, 2003
Look Ak47. It is not up to the US and Britain to decide that they have preeminent powers outside any international consensus to depose of any government they dislike and replace it with those of their own choosing. That is the REAL issue. it doesn't matter the pretext of incidentals. Since when is it ok to declare war on another nation by false allegations?

If Uday and Qusay were hunted down for being accused of war crimes than they should have been put on trial in the ICC. That's what is was created for. That the US does not want to participate in it does not give them rights to murder them instead. Isn't this pretty much the same thing as the CIA did to Che? Besides that, a 14 year old boy was killed.. he is not responsible for the actions of his father, Qusay or Saddam.


It is not up to the US and Britain to decide that they have preeminent powers outside any international consensus to depose of any government they dislike and replace it with those of their own choosing.

So you would have let Hitler run around invading most of europe and murdering Jews, simply because it is "none of our buisness". What kind of lame excuse for an argument is that? I accept that the US should be out of Iraq, however I can easily forsee Saddam Hussain returning to power as soon as the US troops leave. Killing his sons is one more sign to the Iraqi people that the old Regime is not coming back.

Since when is it ok to declare war on another nation by false allegations?

Since when is it ok to leave a murdering despotic fascist in power of a country to continue his extermination of the Kurdish people?

It is tre that the WMD were a big lie, however the moral issues more than justify the war.

If Uday and Qusay were hunted down for being accused of war crimes than they should have been put on trial in the ICC. That's what is was created for. That the US does not want to participate in it does not give them rights to murder them instead.

I actually think that you will find that you can only capture a person if they are willing to surrender. They died in a gun battle, if they refuse to surrender then taking them in alive becomes a bit of a challange. It has been said by many experts in politics that it would have been politically better to have taken them alive to stand trial, so the US most certaily would have tried to take them alive. It was more politically profitable to do so, instead they had to kill them in battle. What you are saying is obviously false for that reason.

Besides that, a 14 year old boy was killed.. he is not responsible for the actions of his father, Qusay or Saddam.

Yes it a tragady, however I am sure that the US troops did not execute them, as I said before it would have been more politicaly profitable to take them alive.

The people fight not because of their old regime but because American occupation will be unable to supplant anything except domination.

Actually no the only people fighting the americans are those formaly from the republican guard and supporters of Hussain. Which would make them the same people who carried out the massacres of over 1.5 million civillians under Saddam's rule, the tools of fascism. Or they are those from other Arabic countrys who hate America and wish to fight them in a Jihad. Maybee they will be flying plains into the Empire state in few years time instead of taking potshots at american troops.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from AK47 on 12:01 pm on July 26, 2003
[quote]Quote: from Paris on 4:49 am on July 26, 2003

It is not up to the US and Britain to decide that they have preeminent powers outside any international consensus to depose of any government they dislike and replace it with those of their own choosing.

So you would have let Hitler run around invading most of europe and murdering Jews, simply because it is "none of our buisness". What kind of lame excuse for an argument is that? I accept that the US should be out of Iraq, however I can easily forsee Saddam Hussain returning to power as soon as the US troops leave. Killing his sons is one more sign to the Iraqi people that the old Regime is not coming back.



I had to quote this since in most right wing boards you always get the Hitler story.

Well Hitler attacked and occupied nations (exactly what the us did in Iraq) an declared war on the allies that's diferent that is war in the real sence.

In this case who attacked first?
The german army was the best in training and equipement in europe..

The iraqi army had rusting tanks and 70's weaponry not something to fear at all. Oh and no WOMD wasn't that the reason to go to war?

What the US did was call the UN resolutions irrelevant take the law into their own hands ans start an illegal war.

In ww2 even the waffen ss had a chance to a trial.

And they lost It and in most cases were excecuted.
I don't see anyone complanning about that but going in and butchering 2 men an one 14 year old is far from justice.

I guarantee you that if saddams sons were alive and captured I would have been a thousand times more usefull and would have helped the iraqi post war effort isntead of creating martyrs for the baath party and Saddams tribe.

Nobody here is defending Uday and Qusay but If the reason to go to war was human rights , Then the US troops behaved the same way as Hitler in this case.
I mean If this kinds of things go on what can stop them from attacking other places and kill leaders that are not murderers but that they just don't like?

The US propaganda was to make Iraq (the place were civilazation began) more "civilized" I have yet to see the US be civilized in Iraq.

Just look at the examples in the balkans are they killing the leaders?
No they are sending them to court in the Hague.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 9:37 pm on July 26, 2003

Quote: from AK47 on 12:01 pm on July 26, 2003
[quote]Quote: from Paris on 4:49 am on July 26, 2003

It is not up to the US and Britain to decide that they have preeminent powers outside any international consensus to depose of any government they dislike and replace it with those of their own choosing.

So you would have let Hitler run around invading most of europe and murdering Jews, simply because it is "none of our buisness". What kind of lame excuse for an argument is that? I accept that the US should be out of Iraq, however I can easily forsee Saddam Hussain returning to power as soon as the US troops leave. Killing his sons is one more sign to the Iraqi people that the old Regime is not coming back.



I had to quote this since in most right wing boards you always get the Hitler story.

Well Hitler attacked and occupied nations (exactly what the us did in Iraq) an declared war on the allies that's diferent that is war in the real sence.

In this case who attacked first?
The german army was the best in training and equipement in europe..

The iraqi army had rusting tanks and 70's weaponry not something to fear at all. Oh and no WOMD wasn't that the reason to go to war?

What the US did was call the UN resolutions irrelevant take the law into their own hands ans start an illegal war.

In ww2 even the waffen ss had a chance to a trial.

And they lost It and in most cases were excecuted.
I don't see anyone complanning about that but going in and butchering 2 men an one 14 year old is far from justice.

I guarantee you that if saddams sons were alive and captured I would have been a thousand times more usefull and would have helped the iraqi post war effort isntead of creating martyrs for the baath party and Saddams tribe.

Nobody here is defending Uday and Qusay but If the reason to go to war was human rights , Then the US troops behaved the same way as Hitler in this case.
I mean If this kinds of things go on what can stop them from attacking other places and kill leaders that are not murderers but that they just don't like?

The US propaganda was to make Iraq (the place were civilazation began) more "civilized" I have yet to see the US be civilized in Iraq.

Just look at the examples in the balkans are they killing the leaders?
No they are sending them to court in the Hague.

I had to quote this since in most right wing boards you always get the Hitler story.

Well perhaps the right wing has got it right for once? Has that ever crossed your mind, or are you far to arrogant to consider that the left is always 100% correct?

Well Hitler attacked and occupied nations (exactly what the us did in Iraq) an declared war on the allies that's diferent that is war in the real sence.

Well how about Iraq invading/oppressing the lands of the Kurdish people and murdering all those who resited? Or can you not believe that your "hero" Saddam was a murdering **** who hopefully will be burning with Hitler in hell before the end of the year.

You are also a fool if you think that I advocate the USA's reasons for invading Iraq. I do not care about WMD, I care that the Kurdish people have nearly been exerminated from Iraq, which in my book is a very good fucking reason to go to war. Just protecting our trade prospects in europe, was the reason for the allied war against Hitler. Yet I do not see people winging about the allied invasion of Germany. Even though both wars are about trade. But to me both wars are about extermination and totalitarianism. And if you dont like that then you can go off to Iraq and fight along with the Iraqi resistance with the rest of the tools of Fascism.

Also if you had not noticed Saddam Hussain has invaded both Kuiate and Iran in his time in power. Or have you forgotten that? Yet more bloodshed on his hands, but ohh no the fake humanitarians only remember the crimes of the US.

In this case who attacked first?


Saddam attacked Kuiate first an ally of the USA.

Hitler attacked Poland first.

Oh and no WOMD wasn't that the reason to go to war?

The capitalists yes, the people who give a damn about human suffering no.

What the US did was call the UN resolutions irrelevant take the law into their own hands ans start an illegal war.


Ohh what you mean in the same way that Saddam Hussain ignored 17 UN resolution until the US overthrew his despotic regime?

I don't see anyone complanning about that but going in and butchering 2 men an one 14 year old is far from justice.

Its called a fire fight, gun battle, shoot out or what ever else you want to call it. People die in them especially if they dont surrender. How can you capture a man who refuses to give up? The only option is to kill or be killed. Of course the 14 year old boy is highly regretable and I feal sorry for him and all but errors will always be made. Such as not invading that Fascist earlier before he had the oppertunity to murder more people. I dont see you morning them, I am also sure that Saddam did not care howmany 14 year olds he gassed.

I guarantee you that if saddams sons were alive and captured I would have been a thousand times more usefull and would have helped the iraqi post war effort isntead of creating martyrs for the baath party and Saddams tribe.

I said that before, which proves my point, the USA would not have executed them, it would have been as you pointed out more profitable to take them prisoner. You just destroyed your own argument.

Nobody here is defending Uday and Qusay

Well you could have fooled me!

Then the US troops behaved the same way as Hitler in this case.

Ohh well thats strange, I have not heard of any ethnic minority being rounded up and placed in consentration camps, before being taken to a death camp and gassed with cyanide. For god sake, stop saying such obvious rubbish.

I mean If this kinds of things go on what can stop them from attacking other places and kill leaders that are not murderers but that they just don't like?


Well in that case what is there to stop ruthless despots commiting acts of genocide ion there people?

The US propaganda was to make Iraq (the place were civilazation began) more "civilized" I have yet to see the US be civilized in Iraq.


I have never heard that specific propaganda being used, On all the sites, TV shows radio shows etc that I have read, watched listed to on the war never has any politician said that the people of Iraq are uncivilised. You just wish they did, by the sounds of it.

Just look at the examples in the balkans are they killing the leaders?
No they are sending them to court in the Hague.

Yes but they surrendered, where as Uday and Qusay did not.

Its really simple, say you are in a way you are in a war and you are attacking a building. You are being fired apon by some hostile so you shoot back, but you hit the hostile and kill him, replace the hostile with Uday or Qusay and yourself with a US soldier. That seams to me a far more likley scenario than the US lining them against a wall and shooting them. For the political reasons you posted above.

(Edited by AK47 at 12:18 am on July 27, 2003)

[Guardia Bolivariano]

AK47 I have no time to waste on you.
I wanted a simple discussion with you but you are not capable of posting anything without an insult.

If you ever want to be taken seriously, you should cut the crap.

And that coment on Saddam being my hero , that's a chilidish way of getting my attetion but It won't work.

Hope you learn one day..

[Guardia Bolivariano]

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/posters/ira/poster63r.jpg


http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/posters/ira/poster09r.jpg


(Edited by Guardia Bolivariano at 3:15 am on July 27, 2003)

[Guardia Bolivariano]

http://osiris.978.org/~brianr/mirrors/cryptome.org/us-blackout/iraq-19.jpg

http://osiris.978.org/~brianr/mirrors/cryptome.org/us-blackout/iraq-20.jpg

Liberation?

[ONE]

Man, it is truly sad to see innocent children killed for no fault of their own. These pics are definitely a good illustration of the true casualties of war - Innocent Civilians.

I believe that people should see these pics to understand the brutality of war and the heavy-handedness of the powerful. However, I have one suggestion, maybe you can warn people about the graphic nature of the pics before you post them.. or just start a new thread that is aptly titled.

They caught me off guard!

[Tasha]

Whatever you choose to believe at this point is an opinion there is absolutely no evidence on qusay and uday being dead. One's theory is therefore plausible as any theory is at this point.

Ak47 you say this war was justified? Let me share something with you,no man has the right to have a say so over another man's life. In this period of time NO invasion of any kind is justified.

As for uday and qusay, the united states could very well have taken them alive had they really wanted to. With the near trillion that they spend on military, you dont think they can gas a place or have some sort of tranquilizer, flashbangs, just listing very basic things here that could easily have been put to use. I am sure they have much more advanced stuff than this with the kind of money they spend on military. Anyways point is if they really wanted to yes they could easily have taken them alive in this situation. This is one fact that sways my opinion that this was another propaganda scheme another being the us government credibility. Where do they get their dna from, their dental records? How can they be positive that this is theirs? And how can you be positive that the government is not lieing to you?

Anyways what good does killing a person do? Eye for an eye, not good. Every man no matter how bad of a criminal can be of use to society.

As for the kurds there are more solutions to a problem than war. War is simply the easiest way out and war is a root to much worse problems. Only weak minded peoples will resort to war because they can think of nothing better.






(Edited by Tasha at 7:21 am on July 27, 2003)

[Lefty]

It is good that they are dead, because they were bastards to the extreme.

[Morpheus]

Well how about Iraq invading/oppressing the lands of the Kurdish people and murdering all those who resited?

Turkey has done the same thing to the Kurds, and the US sold them the weapons to do it with (they also sold the Iraqis weapons). Should the US invade Turkey? By your logic the US should be invaded for its' numerous crimes.


Also if you had not noticed Saddam Hussain has invaded both Kuiate and Iran in his time in power.

With US support. The United States has invaded numerous countries - Yugoslavia, Panama, Nicaragua, Mexico, Vietnam, etc. Should Iraq invade America?

[Felicia]

I don't know if this was sid already but apparently Uday was in the process of negotiating his surrender when he was shot by the americans. I read it posted by a liberal on another board.

Has anyone heard of this also?

[highway star]

no no it is $30 millions totaly
15$ millions is for one
amd cnn said their cousin tell them to us forces for this money

[highway star]

hey morpheus what r u mentionig about?
turks did anything to kurds.with other countries effects kurds began to fight with turks.when their leader ocalan fucking his girls on his warm bed their militans killed 30,000 innocent people includes turks,kurds,children,olders,...
if u got any prob on this subject discuss them with me
ok?

[Felicia]

Here's a site with pictures of civilian casualties, I think some of the pics are already shown. But there's 20 pages there alone.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm

[Felicia]

Here's the pictures that I posted at a conservative board


www.robert-fisk.com/030401AlKindi6.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/030401AlKindi7.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/smain1.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/smain2.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/smain4.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/bloodied_child_2.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/1_145858_1_6.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/iraqiterrorist.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/liberatediraqi.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/iraqichildvictim2.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/bombing_iraq3_mar2003.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/iraqivictims_hospital7apr2003.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/46e7ef90.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/iraqboy2_10apr2003.jpg

LOOK AT THIS BABY!!! (http://www.robert-fisk.com/6712ce10.png)

www.robert-fisk.com/701f7b90.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/5cc3bd00.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/5aa18cd0.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/57dfc740.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/iraq23.jpg

www.robert-fisk.com/iraqi_injured.jpg

[Invader Zim]

Yes people die in war, but the number who died in this war is miniscule compared to the number Saddam hussain killed.

I am not sure on the precise amount of time he has been in power, lets call it 20 years. He has killed over 1,500,000 people, so lets work out how many that is per year on average.

75,000 people he killed per year on average.
205.5 per day on average
8.5 per hour
2.1 every quarter of an hour
1.4 every 10 minuets
0.7 every 5 minuets
0.15 every minuet.

If he remained in power for another 1 year the total would increase to 1,575,000.

If he stayed in power for a further 10 years the total increases to 2,250,000.

And you tell me that the civilian deaths in the war make the war unjustifiable? 7000 to 75,000 perhaps you should learn to count a little better people. I know which I think is the lesser of the evils.

[Turkey has done the same thing to the Kurds, and the US sold them the weapons to do it with (they also sold the Iraqis weapons).

Yes Turkey does have numerous human rights abuses on its record, yet I do not ever remember hearing that it has had 1.5 million people murdered and is continuing to murder still more of them. However if it has then do tell me and I will quickly call for its invasion.

As for the USA, except when they wiped out the native populations of America, they have not systematically murdered millions of people. Yes they have gone to war and killed millions, but that was like two generations ago and a different administration etc etc etc. Not like Saddam Hussain, who has been killing continually for the last 20 years.

Ak47 you say this war was justified?

Yes absolutely, however the numbers above rather make my case for me, don’t you recon?

Let me share something with you, no man has the right to have a say so over another man's life.

Obviously apart from Saddam Hussein then? As you are obviously willing to let him continue his murdering and despotic rule over Iraq. So say you are not willing to allow his murdering to continue, how else to you propose to stop him? Rebellion/revolution? Ohh but that more killing... Democracy? Can you really see Saddam allowing elections? A coup? Tried many times failed many times. As you can see your options to ensure regime change are none existent.

As for the Kurds there are more solutions to a problem than war. War is simply the easiest way out and war is a root to much worse problems. Only weak minded peoples will resort to war because they can think of nothing better.

see above.

you don’t think they can gas a place or have some sort of tranquilizer,

I should Imagine that you read the news, yes? Well if so a few months ago you will have heard that a Russian theatre was seized by terrorists and hostages were taken. Anyway the Russians thought on the same lines as you are and used gas. When they entered the building they found dead terrorists and terrorists.

And how can you be positive that the government is not lying to you?

That’s very true, but how can I be sure that you are not a US agent spying on the evil commies? I will tell you, because I am not paranoid in both cases.

Anyways what good does killing a person do?

Well in this case it saves 75000 people from being murdered every year.

And that comment on Saddam being my hero , that's a childish way of getting my attention but It won't work.

Well actually I did not mean it in a literal sense, hence the reason why I put quotation marks around the word. However I do not really care whether you post in this thread or not. Its not like either of us are going to change our minds.

As for childish its is not me who has posted completely off topic pro IRA pictures in a completely unrelated thread, simply to get a reaction out of another member.

So that makes you: -

A) Childish
B) A spammer, as there are like 4 other threads for you to post that in.
C) An idiot if you though you could really upset me by posting it.
D) A hypocrite for accusing me of it, then promptly doing it your self.

However I do apologise for saying that Saddam was your "hero".

[Felicia]

In the name of oil, yeah I think that it's unjust!

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from felicia on 6:25 pm on July 27, 2003
In the name of oil, yeah I think that it's unjust!

I never have or ever will justify the war in the name of oil. I dont think even the USA have admited that was the reason.

[Felicia]

Quote: from AK47 on 2:38 pm on July 27, 2003

Quote: from felicia on 6:25 pm on July 27, 2003
In the name of oil, yeah I think that it's unjust!

I never have or ever will justify the war in the name of oil. I dont think even the USA have admited that was the reason.
Yeah, I saw an article (from the whitehouse I think, or something like that, I'll find it) posted by a liberal, saying how the US had a plan to get oil from Iraq over two years or so ago..... They just need a "reason" I guess.

[Felicia]

here, I found this..... they had a plan for oil distribution or something....

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=33642 (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33642)

[schumi]

Did you guys know that one of the big companies who got big contracts with the US goverment is led by the Vice President Dick Chenney...

I read that somewhere...but dunno if that's true...If it is its really disgusting to start a war so you can make money out of it while thousends of innocent people die!

[Felicia]

yep, I think that's mentioned in the above article aswell :)

(Edited by felicia at 4:13 pm on July 27, 2003)

[Urban Rubble]

Paris, I wanted to reply to a few comments you made.


"If Uday and Qusay were hunted down for being accused of war crimes than they should have been put on trial in the ICC. That's what is was created for. That the US does not want to participate in it does not give them rights to murder them instead. Isn't this pretty much the same thing as the CIA did to Che? Besides that, a 14 year old boy was killed.. he is not responsible for the actions of his father, Qusay or Saddam."

First off, they couldn't capture them because they came under fire as soon as they got to the building.

As for the 14 year old that got shot, did you even read the official story ? The 3 adults were dead, they stormed the building and the 14 year old shot 3 soldiers with a Kalashnikov. Now, assuming this story is correct, which it probably isn't, then killing that kid was perfectly justifiable.

Anyway, this war sucks, bad, but for now I will be happy that 2 fascists are dead. I guess I'm just trying to find something good in this horrible war.

[American Kid]

Odai and Qusai's deaths are probably orchestrated and agreed upon by both, Saddam(& sons) and the US. This way, the US claims a victory at a time most convenient to them, and Odai and Qusai can now start their new lives somewhere in the US, Europe or elsewhere.


Um....

No.

Now this one:

by the time the U.S got Badhdad, the Iraqi army knew they were done. Perhaps Saddam, knowing they wouldn't be winning a battle of Baghdad, called all his troops off to reorganize, possibly to coordinate Guerilla attacks ?

Now that's the first "conspiracy theory" I've heard from a member here (I've been "doing" this site for over a year) that I think I can actually contemplate with a degree of seriousness.

Nice work.
-aK

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from American Kid on 4:08 am on July 28, 2003
Odai and Qusai's deaths are probably orchestrated and agreed upon by both, Saddam(& sons) and the US. This way, the US claims a victory at a time most convenient to them, and Odai and Qusai can now start their new lives somewhere in the US, Europe or elsewhere.


Um....

No.

Now this one:

by the time the U.S got Badhdad, the Iraqi army knew they were done. Perhaps Saddam, knowing they wouldn't be winning a battle of Baghdad, called all his troops off to reorganize, possibly to coordinate Guerilla attacks ?

Now that's the first "conspiracy theory" I've heard from a member here (I've been "doing" this site for over a year) that I think I can actually contemplate with a degree of seriousness.

Nice work.
-aK


This comming from the Apolitical New Englander ...


I knew that wasn't going to last long, politics is an airborne virus!

[Morpheus]

I am not sure on the precise amount of time he has been in power, lets call it 20 years.

Saddam came to power in 1979 so its' about 24 years.


He has killed over 1,500,000 people, so lets work out how many that is per year on average.

1.5 million? What a coincidence - that's approximately the same number of people the US killed via sanctions & bombing between the two wars. Bill Clinton killed at least 2 million people so if your estimate of the people Saddam killed is correct Clinton was worse. By your logic the United States should be invaded.


If he remained in power for another 1 year the total would increase to 1,575,000.

That's still less than Clinton.


Yes Turkey does have numerous human rights abuses on its record, yet I do not ever remember hearing that it has had 1.5 million people murdered and is continuing to murder still more of them.

I don't remember how many were killed by Turkey's genocide against the Kurds, but it was definately comparable to what Saddam has done. It has largely stopped now, but Saddam's mass slaughter had also largely stopped a decade ago. The Kurds gained autonomy after the Gulf War, there hasn't been any ethnic cleansing there by Saddam for 12 years. That's longer than Turkey, which was doing this in the late '90s. Saddam was the worst when he was backed by the US, since that ended he's been much less of a tyrant on account of the fact that the US is no longer helping him kill people.


As for the USA, except when they wiped out the native populations of America, they have not systematically murdered millions of people.

Bullshit. Youv'e been duped by capitalist imperialist lies. The US has intentionally slaughtered large numbers of innocent people many, many times over the last century. There were concentration camps in the Phillipeneses, Death Squads in Latin America, invasion of Vietnam, the Shah, East Timor, and many more. The genocidal seige of Iraq from 91-03 killed about 1.5 million people and declassified documents prove this mass slaughter of innocents was intentional from the very beginning. 75% of the people Saddam killed were killed with US support. In the period following WW2 the United States has killed more people than the Jewish holocaust. The American empire is a killing machine far worse than Saddam. He was merely an extention of that killing machine which came loose. You need to read some of Chomsky's writings on US foreign policy and stop regurgitating capitalist lies.

[ONE]

Quote: from American Kid on 4:08 am on July 28, 2003
Odai and Qusai's deaths are probably orchestrated and agreed upon by both, Saddam(& sons) and the US. This way, the US claims a victory at a time most convenient to them, and Odai and Qusai can now start their new lives somewhere in the US, Europe or elsewhere.


Um....

No.



And what makes you so sure? were you one of the top US officials that were involved in the behind the scenes politics?

Again, people, that was JUST a theory, and for all the reasons I stated, it's not impossible. You would be naive to think that the malevolent greedy international bullies don’t work out such deals.

I have no problem with people choosing not to believe something; I just hate it when people reject something so confidently. Some of you people don't understand how the real world works and how dirty politics is. Again, in the world of politics, EVERYTHING is possible.

[ONE]

I will, however, vehemently, ruthlessly, and incessantly ridicule the theory itself, as being, in my opinion, the bastard offspring of an over-active (though respectably inventive) imagination along with what might be a possibly-unhealthy level of (forgive me) paranoia.


You are entitled to your opinion as well, and therefore, rejecting this theory (and others) is your choice. However, you don’t know me at a personal level, and consequently, accusing me of paranoia is, at best, an ignorant allegation by an ill informed individual.




By the way, just wondering, what other conspiracy theories do you subscribe to? I'm interested in picking your brain at the moment.

Like, you don't think that 9/11 was a deal between Bush and Mullah Omar to build an oil pipeline through Afgansitan do you?

Or that it was an Israeli plot to increase pressure on the Palestinians and other assorted "arabz"?

-ak


Sarcasm is never an effective method of communication and will get you nowhere in life. Your assumption that I subscribe to an assortment of wild “conspiracy theories” is severely flawed and reflects poorly on you.

I have neither the time nor desire to be involved in such a fruitless trade of posts. It is a waste of time for both of us. (trust me, I'd rather be out with the ladies :biggrin: )

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Morpheus on 10:58 am on July 28, 2003

I am not sure on the precise amount of time he has been in power, lets call it 20 years.

Saddam came to power in 1979 so its' about 24 years.


He has killed over 1,500,000 people, so lets work out how many that is per year on average.

1.5 million? What a coincidence - that's approximately the same number of people the US killed via sanctions & bombing between the two wars. Bill Clinton killed at least 2 million people so if your estimate of the people Saddam killed is correct Clinton was worse. By your logic the United States should be invaded.


If he remained in power for another 1 year the total would increase to 1,575,000.

That's still less than Clinton.


Yes Turkey does have numerous human rights abuses on its record, yet I do not ever remember hearing that it has had 1.5 million people murdered and is continuing to murder still more of them.

I don't remember how many were killed by Turkey's genocide against the Kurds, but it was definately comparable to what Saddam has done. It has largely stopped now, but Saddam's mass slaughter had also largely stopped a decade ago. The Kurds gained autonomy after the Gulf War, there hasn't been any ethnic cleansing there by Saddam for 12 years. That's longer than Turkey, which was doing this in the late '90s. Saddam was the worst when he was backed by the US, since that ended he's been much less of a tyrant on account of the fact that the US is no longer helping him kill people.


As for the USA, except when they wiped out the native populations of America, they have not systematically murdered millions of people.

Bullshit. Youv'e been duped by capitalist imperialist lies. The US has intentionally slaughtered large numbers of innocent people many, many times over the last century. There were concentration camps in the Phillipeneses, Death Squads in Latin America, invasion of Vietnam, the Shah, East Timor, and many more. The genocidal seige of Iraq from 91-03 killed about 1.5 million people and declassified documents prove this mass slaughter of innocents was intentional from the very beginning. 75% of the people Saddam killed were killed with US support. In the period following WW2 the United States has killed more people than the Jewish holocaust. The American empire is a killing machine far worse than Saddam. He was merely an extention of that killing machine which came loose. You need to read some of Chomsky's writings on US foreign policy and stop regurgitating capitalist lies.


1. The crimes of the USA are absolutly nothing to do with Iraq and never will be.

2. I would like to see you provide a source relating to this: -

The genocidal seige of Iraq from 91-03 killed about 1.5 million people and declassified documents prove this mass slaughter of innocents was intentional from the very beginning.

The time required to declassify documents in the US is currently on 25 years, unless a current administration wishes to release it. Can you really see Bush releasing harmful data to hiw war effort early?

3. The sanctions placed on Iraq were agreed apon by the UN, because Iraq was ingnoring UN legislation. The system was that when Saddams regime followed UN legislation then sanctions would cease. They never did, the only blame lies soley with Saddam.

4. I am aware of the US's crimes, so dont even go there. Also do you really think I like the US? I have already repeatedly said that I do not agree with the USA's reasons for war. Do your research first.

5. Of all those crimes of the US I saw, some of them were nearly half a century ago. You may as well condem mongolia for the crimes of Gengis Khan. Some of the others I would like to see a source for, such as the concentration camps one.

[American Kid]

Again, people, that was JUST a theory

Absolutely. And you're 120% entitled to it. Never would I ever have you sent on a train to Siberia nor ridicule you on a personal level for either having it or thought it up.

I will, however, vehemently, ruthlessly, and incessantly ridicule the theory itself, as being, in my opinion, the bastard offspring of an over-active (though respectably inventive) imagination along with what might be a possibly-unhealthy level of (forgive me) paranoia.

But you're right and I have no choice but to humbly concede in the face of the (airtight, yet definetely unfair) argument that I can't prove it couldn't happen.

As I can't.

I just wrote pretty much what I think is the best thing I can muster on why I don't buy the conspiracy theories on this in a seperate thread in OI. I think I'll cut and paste it over here so you can enjoy it.

By the way, just wondering, what other conspiracy theories do you subscribe to? I'm interested in picking your brain at the moment.

Like, you don't think that 9/11 was a deal between Bush and Mullah Omar to build an oil pipeline through Afgansitan do you?

Or that it was an Israeli plot to increase pressure on the Palestinians and other assorted "arabz"?

-ak

[American Kid]

HERE'S MY THING FROM OI:

There's been substantial eye-witness acounts not just from USA sources but from Iraqi neighbors who were literally ringside and saw the whole thing.

I don't understand how the Bush administration could benefit from this, politically; there hasn't been a single jingoistic attempt through the press or any other means to rally the country into some psuedo-post-9/11-style of solidarity and celebration. Hardly anyone cares, really, it seems.

And even if they did try to turn it into re-election fodder (like they are the image of Bush arriving on that aircraft carrier in a fighter jet wearing a fucking flight-suit, after the war was over) it wouldn't matter anyway because according to the latest polls the American public is finally starting to show signs of losing their patience over the absence of so-called "WMD's" and come next November he, along with the rest of his cabinet, are going to find themselves unceremoniously inducted into the fraternal order of the unemployed.

God-willing.

-ak