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Janus
27th August 2006, 04:01
What do you think about the PRC right now, particularly concerning the government's attempts to address the wealth gap? Furthermore do you think it's a worker's state (you'll be surprised at the views that some here hold ( :o )?

bloody_capitalist_sham
27th August 2006, 04:32
I would like to know the relationship between the PRC and the USA in terms of their economies.

And why would a workers state, if it is one, work with a capitalist nation? they are the Class enemy after all.

A discription of its democtratic system would be handy too.

Phalanx
27th August 2006, 04:51
The PRC by my definition is not a workers state. Theoretically they have laws against worker exploitation, but most cases are ignored. China has every right to grow economically, but when that growth is off the backs of the workers whom see little of it, people must question if that growth is worth it.

Janus
27th August 2006, 05:29
Concerning China's recent reforms in trying to "fix" the countryside, it seems to me that these reforms are nothing new especially when one looks at the rural reforms undertaken in the older industrialized nations particularly the United States. After all, considering China's history it would be quite dangerous to have a very dissatisfied and angry rural populace particularly one that makes up a huge portion of the populace. But if these reforms were really as effective as some may claim, why is there still so much dissent in the countryside? How can the government claim to be fixing the countryside while at the same time helping to kick farmers off their lands and suppressing protests and arresting activists who try to help them out? Is it possible that these reforms do not go as deep as some may claim?

So far, the main problems concerning the farmers are the high taxes and the exploitation that they sometimes experience. But this stems from national government neglect; many farmers have claimed that the government officials are only interested in their taxes or land and then leave once that is over with. So far, the government has only tried to relieve the tax problem
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2...tent_448014.htm (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-06/02/content_448014.htm)

No one here will deny that China’s growth has been tremendous in recent times and this is the main reason why the countryside is experiencing a lot of trouble. Deng had already decollectivized much of the Chinese countryside through a contract responsibility system based on individual households thereby replacing the old collectives with family based farming (although much of the land is technically owned by the government in accord with their principles). The reforms were able to successfully increase productivity and farmer’s incomes but this soon changed as the CCP turned its attention to the cities and as result leaving the rural areas in the dust.

Supposedly, when farmers are moved out of their land, they should gain some compensation for it from the government. But this is really left to local officials to implement and this leads to a real problem is they pocket the money and do not send documentation to the farmers. 1 in 5 farmers in a survey by Renmin University actually stated that they were consulted so ignorance particularly of law is quite detrimental to the farmer’s situation as it only allows them to be cheated. Therefore, corruption on both local and national scales is another main problem facing these reforms particularly at the local level. One must not underestimate the geography of China here. There is a major divide in terms of communication between the countryside and the cities especially if the villages are located in remote areas. As a result, local officials are generally the law in these areas so the trickle down theory might face certain obstacles in this aspect.

Rural situation (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/27/AR2006012701588.html)

Rural situation (http://newsroom.msu.edu/site/indexer/2768/content.htm)

Rural problems (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5155948.stm)


Now as for whether or not China is a worker’s state, I have to say that this notion is simply ridiculous. Even during Mao’s time, China was not a truly worker’s state as it was the Party that had the final say. No amount of worker’s congresses or unions is going to change this especially when the government continually cracks down on the workers. The government has even gone as far as to suppress news on their situation as can be seen by the shutting down of the Worker’s Website.
http://www.marxist.com/yuan-workers-website310306.htm

Worker's protests (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2659887.stm)

Of course, one would think that a worker’s state would have better conditions for its workers as well but this is obviously not the case when one looks at the worker’s conditions in the large, industrialized areas (forget the fact that the “worker’s state” has shut down many interior factories and forgotten about the workers there). The workers in these areas are generally migrant workers from the rural areas who have come here to seek work and support their families back home. They generally have both of these hopes dashed when faced with the terrible wages and living conditions in the cities. This is all assuming that they can get a job in the first place of course. I don’t see how these conditions could somehow exist in a worker’s state especially if one of the slogans of said state is “To get rich is glorious” rather than “Build socialism”. China is as much of a worker’s state as the US is (I would say less than) but what is embarrassing is that the CCP still holds onto some sort of semblance of communism rather than simply admitting to being capitalist. After all, the CCP formally allowed capitalists to enter the party in 2002 (something that Jiang Zemin wanted) and people are joining these days for the desire of economic advancement rather than helping out the people.

Worker's situation (http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/globaleconomy/chinapetition.cfm)

China Labor Watch (http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/en/web/)

China rights study (http://www.news.cornell.edu/chronicle/05/3.24.05/China_rights_study.html)

Janus
27th August 2006, 05:43
There is some semblance of grassroots democracy in China but it is severely limited and quite “skin deep”. It is effective in that the people elect the local village councils but it is quite limited due to the fact that they really have no power. This is easy to tell by examining recent protests by farmers that were later crushed by police on the orders of regional Party officials. So although grassroots democracy is certainly effective in certain instances, it is quite unhelpful in others and farmers then have to rely on activist lawyers (many of whom are arrested) to help with their grievance cases (higher education is now quite expensive and the hand exam days are over).
Grassroots democracy? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4319954.stm)

So this lack of true grassroots democracy, the lack of a proper healthcare system, and the lack of proper rights for the oppressed really shows what kind of state the PRC truly is.

anonymous red
27th August 2006, 05:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 09:33 PM
I would like to know the relationship between the PRC and the USA in terms of their economies.


the u.s. has a significant trade deficit with china...i believe in the $billions.

Janus
27th August 2006, 05:48
I must also apologize for the limited links here, it has come to my attention that certain members here don’t like to use translators when foreign documents are used. The fact that they remain skeptical of independent sources such as CND while at the same time embracing government sources like People’s Daily and Xinhua is quite ridiculous.

Sugar Hill Kevis
27th August 2006, 12:49
far far from a workers state, I have little admiration for the PRC...

That being said I remember something about a new "socialist" agricultural plan, don't know if that was just white washing or whatever.. or if it never went down... Perhaps something more knowledgeable can fill me in?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,,1858767,00.html
the above is fairly interesting...

Fidelbrand
27th August 2006, 18:48
The China-Veneuzulean agreement is great news. Joint lefties fighting hegemony.

As for the topic, I don't think it's a worker's state. It's more likely to be defined as "State-capitalism". but once again i have to stress, I support anything that moves away from pure market-liberal-economics.

Denouncing progression is simply not conducive to "our" movement.

When would we get to realise that?

вор в законе
27th August 2006, 19:20
I find it both amusing and disturbing that there is still a Communist Party in China.

namepending
27th August 2006, 19:26
Why does no one understand the significance of the sickle in the soviet flag?

Popular Front! Peasants! peasants's Revolution!

The "Four Classes" of Mao's revolution

In China, there shouldn't have even been a hammer, just a sickle and the star which represented the five continents recognized at the time which should have been a spiked dot, for one.

The worker never had anything to do with China, I.E. there was no proletariat. NOW there is, but China is among the worst of the capitalist colonies. Why do you think everything is "made in China?" Because exploitation there is fantastic and flowing out for every capitalist who wants in, otherwise they would stick to "made in Indonesia" "made in Thailand" etc. etc. China is going to be ripe for a worker's state by the time the Republic of China returns, but it is not a workers state now- rather it is an aging and scared landlord which rents out land and labor to capitalists worldwide, hoping they will stay appeased long enough to let them die as aristocrats. Think Mobutu, ruler of the resource-rich Congo in Africa, who became one of the wealthiest men in the world and one of the longest rulers of the 20th century because he allowed and assisted capitalists in making his people one of the most miserable in history.

As the Soviet Union handed the keys to Russia over to Capitalism in return for eternal wealth and safety, after threats of real socialism emerged, after Tiananmen Square where students sang the Internationale, China has been lending the keys to capitalism to help ultimately preserve their lifestyle.

redhmong
28th August 2006, 04:12
No, China isn't a worker state.
I don't think there is a worker state on the earth, now.

Perhaps, the central of CCP wants a socialism China. But the corruption of middle and grass-roots officials make the masses poor and complained. The unbalanced developement make the great difference between eastern and middle-western. In fact, I think nowaday China like capitalism in primitive accumulation rather than so-called 'socialist country'.

Janus
28th August 2006, 05:52
Well, it looks like the member who originally inspired this thread isn't going to show up but if TragicClown wants to excommunicate others and retreat into her own world then that's her problem.


Denouncing progression is simply not conducive to "our" movement.
Right, but falling over ourselves every time the Republicans lower taxes or when Bill Gates donates some money won't be helpful. We should be happy with better conditions but be critical especially when they could be a lot better.

Janus
28th August 2006, 05:54
But the corruption of middle and grass-roots officials make the masses poor and complained
Right, the corruption is really massive in the local and national scale. In fact, at the top of Hu Jintao's points at the last CCP meeting was dealing with this corruption. So far, no officials have been tried or arrested. :rolleyes:

Severian
28th August 2006, 06:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 08:30 PM
Now as for whether or not China is a worker’s state, I have to say that this notion is simply ridiculous. Even during Mao’s time, China was not a truly worker’s state as it was the Party that had the final say.
That's not the point.

Of course the political regime in China is not, and never has been, representative of the workers. Almost everyone knows that.

The real question is: what economic system does China have? What economic foundations does the state machinery rest on - and so necessarily, to a degree, defend?

It's on that economic basis that I and some others (in reality, dunno about this board) would argue China remains a workers state.

So do Russia, and other countries, whose political regimes no longer claim to be communist - a false claim anyway - but where stable capitalist property relations are a long way from being reestablished. In some ways the Chinese Communist Party and its highly repressive regime has been able to go further towards capitalism than they have.

The capitalists have noticed the problems they've run into in the former Soviet bloc, even if few leftists internationally have.

****

Since you've mentioned the countryside, it's interesting to note that despite the abolition of the collectives, the land is still state property. The peasants have the use of the land, but it cannot be transferred, sold, foreclosed on by banks.

The usual capitalist pattern - of peasants being driven off the land, and ownership being concentrated in fewer hands - is not happening in the Chinese countryside. In some ways this has buffered the social chaos and discontent that normally accompanies industrial expansion - and the moves towards capitalism in the cities.

Any reforms the Chinese government introduces occur in that context, so comparisons to rural reforms in the U.S. (which ones, anyway?) don't seem particularly useful.

That's why taxation, land seizures to clear land for industry, etc., are the major issues. Because unlike farmers in the U.S., Chinese farmers don't have to worry about losing their land to the bank.

****

As for industry: Privatization is a long way from complete. So are measures to try to make the state-owned companies operate like capitalist concerns, with profitability their highest concern.

They are underway, and fiercely resisted by workers and peasants - with thousands of strikes, demonstrations, and massive street fights with cops and soldiers.

People who say China is simply capitalist, are acting as if this battle was already lost. But it's still underway.

It should also be kept in mind that imperialist pressure on China - from the U.S., European powers, Japan - aims at encouraging and demanding further moves towards capitalism. Along with Chinese bureaucrats and capitalists, they're trying to push social reality one way - Chinese workers and peasants are pushing it the other.

Communist worldwide oughta side with Chinese workers and peasants and oppose imperialist pressure on China, obviously - but not many "leftists" do. Some take the opposite side.

Fidelbrand's comment that Chinese "state capitalism" is progressive compared to "pure market-liberal-economics." is interesting, and might point towards a conclusion I'd agree with, terminology aside.

***

As for Tragic Clown's stuff on China - on this one question, she does have a point, which some people could stand to think about. That looking at the economy, China is not simply capitalist.

'Course, she attributes this to the regime having some progressive content, and even sides with it against peasant protesters. That's where she's dead wrong.

The regime is trying as hard as it dares to push towards capitalism - and it's the worker and peasant protesters who are opposing the moves towards capitalism. They - not the regime - represent what's progressive about China's social setup - the remaining gains of the 1949 Revolution.

Janus
28th August 2006, 07:04
That's not the point.

Of course the political regime in China is not, and never has been, representative of the workers. Almost everyone knows that.
It was one of the reasons this thread was created in the first place.


what economic system does China have?
I would say that it's really a mix at this point in that it's not truly capitalist yet.


The usual capitalist pattern - of peasants being driven off the land, and ownership being concentrated in fewer hands - is not happening in the Chinese countryside.
Some farmers have been chased off their land due to the actions of business developers with the help of local officials.


so comparisons to rural reforms in the U.S. (which ones, anyway?) don't seem particularly useful.
What about certain reforms that were introduced following agrarian dissent such as after the Populist upsurge?

And of course in Europe, a lot was done to get rid of the landed gentry and give better conditions for the actual farmers themselves.

What I'm saying is that Mao helped the peasantry to their feet with the iron rice bowl programs after Liberation and their lives steadily improved until Deng began refocusing everything on the cities.

Janus
28th August 2006, 07:08
Fidelbrand's comment that Chinese "state capitalism" is progressive compared to "pure market-liberal-economics." is interesting, and might point towards a conclusion I'd agree with, terminology aside.
The state is no longer as dominant in that aspect as it was before; it is closing many of its factories down and allowing more privitization to occur in the major cities.

Fidelbrand
28th August 2006, 14:52
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 10:53 AM

Denouncing progression is simply not conducive to "our" movement.
Right, but falling over ourselves every time the Republicans lower taxes or when Bill Gates donates some money. We should be happy with better conditions but be critical especially when they could be a lot better.
Yup, can't agree more with you. Fuck, I doubt their genuine intentions. These "businessmen" always has a secret agenda... :ph34r:

bloody_capitalist_sham
28th August 2006, 20:52
I really want to think that china might be socialist, but then you see articles like this which protects the rich and not the poor.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5291910.stm

red team
29th August 2006, 03:54
Originally posted by Fidelbrand+Aug 28 2006, 11:53 AM--> (Fidelbrand @ Aug 28 2006, 11:53 AM)
[email protected] 28 2006, 10:53 AM

Denouncing progression is simply not conducive to "our" movement.
Right, but falling over ourselves every time the Republicans lower taxes or when Bill Gates donates some money. We should be happy with better conditions but be critical especially when they could be a lot better.
Yup, can't agree more with you. Fuck, I doubt their genuine intentions. These "businessmen" always has a secret agenda... :ph34r: [/b]
It's not that they do or don't have a secret agenda. I can't read Bill Gates mind so don't know what his intentions are, but that's not relevant and it's not what the most important consideration is for Capitalists whether they are charitable or not.

You can be as charitable as you want and your intentions may all be good, but if you're simply concentrating on promoting charity what you are essentially doing is supporting a type of private social democracy at most. You're not undermining the very system of production itself which is the profit system. Breaking enclosure laws on private property like patents on intellectual property and building up public social services does undermine the profit system which is why Capitalists never support those actions as charitable as may be. Charity is one thing, but you're not going to ruin your own business by making property widely accessible.