I'm sure it's around here somewhere....

[Comrade C.A.]

A stencil for the phrase YA BASTA. anyone have one or know where a kid could get one?
thanks.

[Comrade C.A.]

also, does anyone have a picture of Stalingrad when the soldier is placing the flag on the building? I can't really describe it very well but hopefully some of you know wat I mean...

thanks again very much.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 26 2006, 03:32 AM
A stencil for the phrase YA BASTA. anyone have one or know where a kid could get one?
thanks.
Of just the phrase?

If so, i've made this for you which should cover it:

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3074/yabastahi6.jpg

[Comrade C.A.]

Originally posted by Black Dagger+Aug 25 2006, 05:53 PM--> (Black Dagger @ Aug 25 2006, 05:53 PM)
Comrade [email protected] 26 2006, 03:32 AM
A stencil for the phrase YA BASTA. anyone have one or know where a kid could get one?
thanks.
Of just the phrase?

If so, i've made this for you which should cover it:

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3074/yabastahi6.jpg [/b]
you sexy bastard, that's exactly what I was looking for!

[Rollo]

http://www.borodulincollection.com/war/stalingrad_images/Flag_Stalingr.jpg

Type Stalingrad flag into a search engine.

[Comrade C.A.]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 07:35 PM
http://www.borodulincollection.com/war/stalingrad_images/Flag_Stalingr.jpg

Type Stalingrad flag into a search engine.
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/4041/communismbynecatorky7.png


I'm looking for this one but with just the image and no words.

[Rollo]

Ah, that would be reichstag.

http://images.google.com.au/images?q=reich...ial&sa=N&tab=wi (http://images.google.com.au/images?q=reichstag%20victory&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&tab=wi)

[Comrade C.A.]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 08:15 PM
Ah, that would be reichstag.

http://images.google.com.au/images?q=reich...ial&sa=N&tab=wi (http://images.google.com.au/images?q=reichstag%20victory&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&tab=wi)
thank you so much!

[Tower of Bebel]

Just minutes after he raised the flag: What are those Germans up to? (http://www.curme.co.uk/old.jpg)

[razboz]

Can anyone else see the two atches the man in the lower right corner is wearing? This is direct and ballant testimony of the way the Russians looted Germany during the war. Also this shot was set up, as a counter to the american of the flag over japan. the Russians had two flags made spetially for the occasion. Later one of the two watches were actually edited out of the fotograph.

[Marukusu]

Can anyone else see the two atches the man in the lower right corner is wearing? This is direct and ballant testimony of the way the Russians looted Germany during the war.

...And the germans didn't loot from Belarus and Ukraine? Or any other countries and territories they occupied?

[razboz]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 03:03 PM

Can anyone else see the two atches the man in the lower right corner is wearing? This is direct and ballant testimony of the way the Russians looted Germany during the war.

...And the germans didn't loot from Belarus and Ukraine? Or any other countries and territories they occupied?
Did you hear me say anything about that? I think not. What i wrote was in reference to that picture. Did i justify anything the Nazis did? I dont think so. The fact remains that the Russians did loot from the Germans. They also organised one of the greatest mass-rapes in the history of mankind, rivalling Genghis-Khan in brutality when they rolled the Nazis back accross Belarus, Ukraine, Poland and finally to Berlin. Do the atrocities commited by German troops justify any of this? Because thats what your implying, that for every dead Bielorussian, Ukranian, Jewish and other civilian there should be a dead German? If it had not been for the cold war and the strategic need for a strong Germany on both sides the german people would have ceased to exists and the nation would have been torn apart and everything it contained looted, stolen raped and murdered by vengefull european citizens that had lived for too long under the joug of War. Every one lost out in WWII, especially the civilian population. The only ones who one were the United States that were propelled once and for all to the rank of Super-Power Extraordinaire.

[ComradeOm]

I'm assuming razboz is German here.


The fact remains that the Russians did loot from the Germans.
Amazing. A victorious army actually looting? This is a real turn up for the books.


They also organised one of the greatest mass-rapes in the history of mankind, rivalling Genghis-Khan in brutality when they rolled the Nazis back accross Belarus, Ukraine, Poland and finally to Berlin.
Don't let facts in the way of great horseshit.

1) They "organised"? I assume you mean the Soviet Army commanders? So what happened… the officers laid the women out and directed the men in? Or they had raffles to see who got to go first? The rape of German women during the Red Army campaign was, like the looting, unfortunate but entirely impromptu and in no way "organised".

2) The accounts of mass rapes centre almost entirely on East Prussia and Berlin. The Soviets did not somehow "rape their way across Europe".

3) Genghis Khan? WTF? Are you simply preying on the fears of the "evil men from the East"? Or perhaps you actually have evidence by which you can compare the situations separated by the centuries?


If it had not been for the cold war and the strategic need for a strong Germany on both sides the german people would have ceased to exist
You're suggesting that the Allies and Russians were planning genocide in Germany? And please, what exactly is "the German people"?

[razboz]

First off im not some kind of crazed German Nationalist. As a mater of fact i am not even German at all. Heck im not even european. If were going to start discussing nationalities here im half Mexican, half Algerian. Am i not able to argue in the name of innocense and peace because of it?


Amazing. A victorious army actually looting? This is a real turn up for the books.

Does this make it normal to steal from people who have already lost everything worth losing? Ill agree perhaps some people may even have deserved to have theri posetions taken, but can you really argue that taking a peasants crop, when he has already lost both his sons to the war, and seen his hife and 11 year old daughter raped by by one army and another, is just? You are arguing that the glorious Red Army could not help but loot seeing as its normal to do so in war? Would you also argue that in the case of the Germans? OF course they could do it seeing as everyone does it anyways!

This is bollocks reasoning and we both know it.


1) They "organised"? I assume you mean the Soviet Army commanders? So what happened… the officers laid the women out and directed the men in? Or they had raffles to see who got to go first? The rape of German women during the Red Army campaign was, like the looting, unfortunate but entirely impromptu and in no way "organised".

I dont think thats right, but i wont argue over it because i dont have the facts at hand. It is undeniable, and you do not deny it, that the Great Red Army of Mother Russia raped indiscriminately every female shaped object in their way. This is undisputed historical fact, unless you argue its all bourgeois propaganda, in which case id reply thats Stalinist propaganda and wed never see the end of it.


2) The accounts of mass rapes centre almost entirely on East Prussia and Berlin. The Soviets did not somehow "rape their way across Europe".


Do you mean to suggest that army that did not have the disciplin to refrain from looting and raping, at your admission i should add, would somhow be able to refrain from hurting any one on their way to germany? After all the Nazis did to the USSR?


3) Genghis Khan? WTF? Are you simply preying on the fears of the "evil men from the East"? Or perhaps you actually have evidence by which you can compare the situations separated by the centuries?


My facts may be wong, but Genghis Khan was the ruler of the Mongols and he conquered large swathes of Asia and eastern Europe. He was the one of the most gifted and ruthless military leaders in history. It was not his army but the fear of his army that caused thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of people to capitulate to his every whim. Genghis Khan struck terror into the hearts of the most powerfull empires of the time. One of the ways he kept his repuation was by killing vast amounts of people. Another was by raping or having raped large amounts of people. IF this is all too confusing for you go and lie down.


You're suggesting that the Allies and Russians were planning genocide in Germany? And please, what exactly is "the German people"?

Planning only? What would you call what "Bomber" Harry did to Cologne and so many other German cities? Was he targeting factories or military instalation? No. He was aiming straight for the German civilians. Perhaps he was exacting revenge for the way the Germans bombed England? I dont know. What is true though, is that German indutrial output was never as high as when the Allies were meant to be hurting their factories and heavy industry. As to who the german people are, i would say that might depend on your personal convictions. I beleive there are no German, French, or American people as such, just people who are trapped inside a line drawn on a map. The German people would be the people living within Germany. Does this make sense to you or do you need a map (http://www.embl-hamburg.de/~msweiss/Germany.jpg) ?

I think the moral here is we should not beleive the Soviet, Allied or Nazi propaganda, but rather be critical of all those who pretend to rule us, wether in be in the name of the Soviets, of the Master Race, or just the "People".

[ComradeOm]

Does this make it normal to steal from people who have already lost everything worth losing?
I say that it’s a reality of war. I don't assign moral values. In this regard the Soviet Army was no different from every other army ever fielded in human history.


I dont think thats right, but i wont argue over it because i dont have the facts at hand.
Then find them and tell me where it says that mass rapes were "organised". I have never denied that they occurred but the idea that the Soviet Army "organised" mass rapes like some sort of exercise, event or other deliberate policy is ridiculous.


Do you mean to suggest that army that did not have the disciplin to refrain from looting and raping, at your admission i should add, would somhow be able to refrain from hurting any one on their way to germany? After all the Nazis did to the USSR?
Yes. Its documented fact that the mass rapes engaged upon by Russian soldiers were confined to Germany. Did rape and looting occur elsewhere? Probably but, as I've said, that's a reality of war. What differentiates the rape in Berlin and East Prussia was the sheer scale of it.

As for why this was confined to German… well you answer that yourself. It was primarily a response to German atrocities on Russian soil.


Genghis Khan struck terror into the hearts of the most powerfull empires of the time. One of the ways he kept his repuation was by killing vast amounts of people. Another was by raping or having raped large amounts of people. IF this is all too confusing for you go and lie down.
You see the problem with this genius bit of reasoning is that its bullshit. The Mongols did not use rape as a weapon because as a tool of war its pretty shit. Its also fairly unnecessary when your primary weapon is thousands of horsemen. If that doesn't strike fear then a habit of razing cities will do the job.

The Mongols did rape fairly indiscriminately but then so did all armies of that era. You conquered an enemy fiefdom and you raped and pillaged to your hearts content. Few "civilians" survived. The Mongols were particularly experienced at this brutal form of warfare.

Now then, how does this relate to the USSR? It doesn't. Unless you have fears of strangers from the East. Your analogy is correct in that neither the Soviets nor the Mongols had an "organised" or deliberate system of rape. Where it falls flat on its face is in the fact that these are two different armies from two different eras. You may as well compare American Marines to Persian Immortals. Its stupid.


What would you call what "Bomber" Harry did to Cologne and so many other German cities?
I would call that terror bombing. It’s a particularly inefficient form of air campaign that was popular around that time. The idea being that the morale of the civilian population could cause the war to be won from the air. Ironically its still alive and kicking today in US doctrine… but I digress.

I advise you to look up the definitions of either terror bombing or genocide.


As to who the german people are, i would say that might depend on your personal convictions. I beleive there are no German, French, or American people as such, just people who are trapped inside a line drawn on a map. The German people would be the people living within Germany. Does this make sense to you or do you need a map ?
And what's your position on the Germans that were living in Prussia or Czechoslovakia? You see, the term "the German people" usually referred to them as well. Then again that phrase fell out of fashion about Adolf made it his own.

And personally I feel that the lesson here is to critically examine all history and not bother with tired stereotypes or allow moral concerns to cloud judgement. And reading the relevant history is always a plus.

[razboz]

And personally I feel that the lesson here is to critically examine all history and not bother with tired stereotypes or allow moral concerns to cloud judgement. And reading the relevant history is always a plus.

Allow moral concerns to cloud my judgement? Okay lets do a little evaluation with no moral concerns:

Capitalism is more efficent than Communism or any derived ideology becuse by the ruthless application of competition, people strive to survive, even through the most inhumane conditions and this breeds creativity and innovation as well as personnal gain for a few.

Selective extermination of poorer non-productive people is beneficial for society as a whole as it raises the available amount of resources, for productive people to use.

Still morally unconcerned? Lets go on:

Union and Labour rights are counter-productive as they lower output by increasing the comfort of Workers.

Sterilising or destroying genetically impure people is beneficial for Human evolution.

Got the picture? Morality is the only issue at stake on these forums. This is what Revolutianry Leftist politics and philosophy are about. You cannot examine things froma disconnected and cold 'scientific' point of view. This is what Nazis do. I am not a Nazi. I do not look at things and evaluate wether or not they fit into historical phenomenon that are repeated accrtoss history. I do not justify the actions of somone because historically it fits in.i denounce cold, detatched thinking as the cause of more than one Genocide. I denounce cold detatched thinking as one of the pillars of Capitalism. I denounce moral detatchment as one of the basic and fundamental causes of every bad deed commited.

[ComradeOm]

So now we're completely off topic. Feel free to actually respond to my points at some stage.

As for "moral concerns", if your interest in communism is due to some moral outrage about the evils of capitalism then go visit a church. Considering your arbitrary use of facts it wouldn't surprise me if this moral objection was the basis of your entire critique of capitalism. It is only by examining both history and society objectively that we can learn. Otherwise you're just listening to the echoes of your own outrage.

Oh and the examples that you've given or neither "cold" nor "calculating"… they're just bullshit.

[Comrade C.A.]

so uh....yep...got that picture alright...

[razboz]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 07:10 PM
So now we're completely off topic. Feel free to actually respond to my points at some stage.

As for "moral concerns", if your interest in communism is due to some moral outrage about the evils of capitalism then go visit a church. Considering your arbitrary use of facts it wouldn't surprise me if this moral objection was the basis of your entire critique of capitalism. It is only by examining both history and society objectively that we can learn. Otherwise you're just listening to the echoes of your own outrage.

Oh and the examples that you've given or neither "cold" nor "calculating"… they're just bullshit.
Theyre not bullshit, you just say they are because theyre inconvenient.

And ive answered all your points. You calim that its somehow ok or at least normal to loot, rape and generally be an ass when your in a war. I willnot deny that this is what happens, and if i remeber (or just scroll up) properly this is how the entire thing started: i was pointing out how it was that the Soviet armies looted and how that picture indicated this fact. Seeing as no one here is denying that i dont see why youre so worked up, Comerade OM. You seem to say that i am anti-soviet. I am. I understand that you may nto feel it fair that i pointed out that the Red Army stole from the Germans. You however admit that they raped and indeed looted "East Prussia adn Germany". The literature i have read indicates that the Russians raped even with in the liberated areas within he USSR. however i wont argue on that point because we are all prey to propaganda, and either of us may have been given false information.

As to the issue of Morality and objective observation, i cannot agree more that we need to examine the facts. However in our interpretaiton of them we have to attatcha moral jidgement. This is the only way communism can viably work as a solution. Communism is definitely not, and i dont think anyone can argue this, the most efficient, or cost reducing method of production of Wealth. WHat it is however is the most moral, and humane one.

@Comrade C.A. i appoligise that your thread degenrated a little, but it really doesent serve any other purpose as youve got the pics anyway.