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*~ReD aPpLE~*
25th August 2006, 07:35
often times i wonder, why is cuba and north korea the only surviving commie country? china the largest, in terms of population, succumb to open market, russia and germany as well gave way to unification. warum?

what made cuba and NK survive up this day?

Avtomatov
25th August 2006, 07:40
they were not so connected politcally to the soviet union so when it fell it effected them less politically. Politcally they were always independent of the soviet union and they didnt let the soviet union control them. I think.

Sentinel
25th August 2006, 07:54
I'm not all too familiar with the situation in DPRK, but Cuba was indeed very dependant on the USSR and the socialist bloc which bought it's sugar for a beneficial price.

The Castro government managed to survive the disastrious ninities by different measures; like attracting more tourism and applying a more thrifty economical policy.

Nowadays Cuba has acquired new trade partners as well as political allies with the leftwing wave in South America.

Avtomatov
25th August 2006, 08:01
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 04:55 AM
I'm not all too familiar with the situation in DPRK, but Cuba was indeed very dependant on the USSR and the socialist bloc which bought it's sugar for a beneficial price.

The Castro government managed to survive the disastrious ninities by different measures; like attracting more tourism and applying a more thrifty economical policy.

Nowadays Cuba has acquired new trade partners as well as political allies with the leftwing wave in South America.
sentinel you didnt understand what i said. I said politically independant. I know it was economically dependant.

Labor Shall Rule
25th August 2006, 08:06
Originally posted by *~ReD aPpLE~*@Aug 25 2006, 04:36 AM
often times i wonder, why is cuba and north korea the only surviving commie country? china the largest, in terms of population, succumb to open market, russia and germany as well gave way to unification. warum?

what made cuba and NK survive up this day?
Both countries were virtually economically dependent to that of the Soviet Union. When Fidel nationalized American-owned property that produced valuable agricultural and even mineral and crude oil products while he started to create social programs, the only power in the world that was willing to pour money into that country was that of the USSR. Cuba continued to expand trade relations with some European countries. North Korea, upon it's creation after the Soviet invasion of Manchuria and Korea in 1945, nationalized mines and started exporting most of it's mineral resources to that of Russia.

Upon the fall of the Soviet Union, Cuba was forced to realign their economic policies and even cutback on their vital social programs, in order to adapt to the world that was experiencing neo-liberalization, while kicking up funding for their millitary. Fidel opened up relations with the EU and privatized the tourist industry while subsidizing small buisness. Cuba made a relatively peaceful pass into this strange type economic socialism while still being accepted by the international community that was trying to rid the power of "communism", of the edge of the global map. As for the North Korea, economic recession and bureaucratic tumors haunted the nation. But they also were easily able to make the transition. They only diverted their resource exports to that of China, which responded by promising continuing millitary aid. Overspending on their millitary destroyed North Korea society. To make a conclusion, they are both really nations that have survived by making concessions to capitalist society (it was forced, of course), since the fall of the Soviet power; both on the edge from "free trade" and "democracy".

Wanted Man
25th August 2006, 08:13
The DPRK(North Korea) also had a high dependency on the USSR(and to some extent China). Right through the 70s and 80s, the DPRK was actually generally known to be more democratic and had a stronger economy. The Ryugyong Hotel was started in 1987 in anticipation of the World Festival of Youth and Students 2 years later. Of course, we all know what happened in the years after... Years of famine, the death of Kim Il-sung. Yet, incredibly, the country is slowly starting to crawl back on its feet.

The country went through lots of losses. In the mid-90s, there was a terrible famine due to a long series of natural disasters, a bad harvest, etc.(no, it was a government-orchestrated, man-made famine! Or at least, that's what imperialist lackeys allege :rolleyes: ) Now they're actually recovering, although there have again been natural disasters this summer which killed many, and left hundreds of thousands without a home. Still, it doesn't look like there is a terrible famine like 10 years ago, so hopefully it only gets better from here.

Sentinel
25th August 2006, 08:24
I said politically independant. I know it was economically dependant.

Ok, great, but I thought it needed to be clarified to red apple that there was a strong economic dependancy at least in Cubas case.

Besides, Cuba had a political one aswell; the USSR had made it clear (during the missile crisis) that they wouldn't accept an imperialist intervention on the island.

I'm under the impression Cuba's politics did differ from the soviet line on occasions though, especially towards the end.

Labor Shall Rule
25th August 2006, 08:32
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 05:02 AM
sentinel you didnt understand what i said. I said politically independant. I know it was economically dependant.
Due to Cuba's and North Korea's economic dependance from the Soviet Union, it would imply that all political choices of Fidel and Sung would result in some sort of financial consequence for the Soviet Union and first world, therefore, it would only be natural to suggest that there was a "political dependance" factor that also existed.

JKP
25th August 2006, 10:02
Why the fuck hasn't anyone stated the obvious yet?

Namely that Cuba and North Korea are not communist in any conception.

They don't even describe themselves as communist.

Comrade J
25th August 2006, 10:44
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 07:03 AM
Why the fuck hasn't anyone stated the obvious yet?

Namely that Cuba and North Korea are not communist in any conception.

They don't even describe themselves as communist.
I've just been reading the thread with the exact same thought.
Glad someone pointed it out.

*~ReD aPpLE~*
25th August 2006, 10:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 07:03 AM
Why the fuck hasn't anyone stated the obvious yet?

Namely that Cuba and North Korea are not communist in any conception.

They don't even describe themselves as communist.
dont they, JKP?

if both countries are not under communist form of government, what form then?

Rollo
25th August 2006, 10:50
North Korea is a heavy dictatorship, Cuba is the closest thing to a communist government but it still isn't communist.

*~ReD aPpLE~*
25th August 2006, 11:16
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 07:51 AM
North Korea is a heavy dictatorship, Cuba is the closest thing to a communist government but it still isn't communist.
im traurig, begnadigen die Unwissenheit. (im sorry. pardon my ignorance)

base on what i learned in school, these two countries were classified under communist state, if that was politically or economically correct, i dont really know.

i wasnt born at the time of che and my only reference were the literature available in our library and the net. precisely one of the reasons why i enlisted in this forum is because i wanted to learn and understand its history.

please bear with me.

Rollo
25th August 2006, 13:05
That's ok but it's good that you're recognising your mistake unlike some of the other people i.e " OMFG NORTH KORE IS COMUNIST U FAG LOL LIEK I R KING LOL FAG "

*~ReD aPpLE~*
25th August 2006, 13:20
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 10:06 AM
That's ok but it's good that you're recognising your mistake unlike some of the other people i.e " OMFG NORTH KORE IS COMUNIST U FAG LOL LIEK I R KING LOL FAG "
thank u! i learned that it is the first step to acquiring wisdom.

i got classmates from south america and uzbekistan but they couldnt help me either figure out this thing about cuba and NK.

Xiao Banfa
25th August 2006, 14:51
China was a revolution of the peasant masses to overthrow feudalism and imperialist domination, that is certain.
The socialist programme carrried out by the CCP ,while progressive, didn't allow the same mass democratic participation as the programme of the (recently created) cuban party.

Cuba has survived through sheer mass solidarity. The cuban revolution was reliant in mass action in the cities.

The chinese revolution was of a different character altogether- maoism, while definately progressive and largely in accordance with marxist-leninism, was a peasant movement.

It's not quite as straightforward as that, but I can't be bothered.

Mesijs
25th August 2006, 14:54
Originally posted by *~ReD aPpLE~*+Aug 25 2006, 07:49 AM--> (*~ReD aPpLE~* @ Aug 25 2006, 07:49 AM)
[email protected] 25 2006, 07:03 AM
Why the fuck hasn't anyone stated the obvious yet?

Namely that Cuba and North Korea are not communist in any conception.

They don't even describe themselves as communist.
dont they, JKP?

if both countries are not under communist form of government, what form then? [/b]
A communist government doesn't exist, because in communism there isn't a government (a ruling elite).

Maybe you can check out somehting in the Learning section, what communism is and that sort of things.

@ Matthijs:

Yeah sure, the only thing why North-Korea is so poor is because of the evil nature! It isn't because the inefficient production, because of the big bureaucracy, because of the one-man rule (where you get killed if you dare to scratch on the portrait of the Great Leader or however they call them) or so forth. Yes, of course, the nature is all to blame!

Vladislav
25th August 2006, 15:15
North Korea is under a system called Juche.
(don't like using wikipedia,but whatever)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche

Damm.Where's Black Dagger when you need him?

Rollo
25th August 2006, 15:17
Apparently england is under a socialist government according to tony blair.

*~ReD aPpLE~*
25th August 2006, 16:56
thank u gentlemen, your postings were like arrows hitting its target, very enlightening.

obviously, views varies depending on which element of communism one prefers to associate it with. although for most people having limited understanding of the facets of communism, today, cuba and NK are the only surviving countries from the said block.

MrDoom
25th August 2006, 17:10
base on what i learned in school, these two countries were classified under communist state, if that was politically or economically correct, i dont really know.

Schools tend to lie about socialist ideologies, being an organ of the ruling class and a function of the state.

"Communist state" is itself a self-contradictory term, you cannot have a stateless state.

Wanted Man
25th August 2006, 17:12
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 07:03 AM
Why the fuck hasn't anyone stated the obvious yet?

Namely that Cuba and North Korea are not communist in any conception.

They don't even describe themselves as communist.
I don't think anyone has claimed them to be communist. So what's your point? "lolz theyre not perfect communist utopias so fuck them lolz see i used 'fuck' im so witty"?

Mesijs: you are a clown. What I am about to quote here is not meant for you, but for people who are actually interested in learning something, just so they don't think that your post makes sense in any way.


1.) Threat imposed by the United States. Meaning the DPRK has to devote energies to maintaining its standing army to deter/off-set a terrorist attack and terrorist invasion of the country by the US - energies which would otherwise be devoted to economic development.
2.) Sanctions. Has difficulty importing fuel for energy production, and food on commercial terms.
3.) Loss of socialist market relations following the collapse of global communism.
4.) Lack of arable land; much of it that is available has been damaged, and has therefore been rendered useless, by a series of natural disasters.

Here is some information on the standard of living:

"Infant mortality: Myanmar had 79 deaths per 1,000 live births; North Korea had 23 per 1,000, South Korea was lower with 10 per 1,000.

"Percentage of income spent on housing: Myanmar ranked 87th at 10%, South Korea 140th at 4.1%, North Korea 164th at .8%.

"Percentage of income spent on health care: The U.S. ranked first at 17%, South Korea 35th at 5%, Myanmar 92nd at 2.4%. North Korea was not listed. Health care there is free.

"Hospital beds: North Korea was third highest at 135 per 10,000 population; the U.S. was 85th at 41 per 10,000, South Korea was 95th at 34 per 10,000, and Myanmar was 200th at 6 per 10,000.

"Population per physician: Myanmar's ratio is 3,485 people to 1 doctor, South Korea is 784:1, North Korea is better at 370:1, and the rich U.S. is practically the same: 365:1.

"Life expectancy in both North and South Korea was the same: 69 years. The U.S. wasn't much higher--72 years, while Myanmar was 58 years.

"Of the three Asian countries, North Korea had the lowest death rate--5.3 per 1,000, while in Myanmar it was 9.9 and in South Korea 6.4.

"North Korea did fantastically well on literacy: 95%. The U.S. had 95.5% and South Korea 98%. Myanmar was 83%.

"Population with access to safe drinking water (1994-95): North Korea is listed with 38 other countries at 100%. Only 90% of people in the U.S. have access to safe drinking water, according to these figures. In South Korea, the number is 89%, and in Myanmar, only 39%."

Source: Illustrated Book of World Rankings 2001, 5th edition, for South Korea, North Korea, and a few for the United States, as well as for Myanmar (Burma)
(posted on another forum some time ago)

Hell, I'll even elaborate for a bit on those first 4 points.

1: do you know what happened to Cuba, which is by no means as "bad"(for a liberal :rolleyes: ) as North Korea? It got invaded, terrorist strikes against it were committed, saboteurs were funded, and schemes were routinely made to assassinate leaders like Fidel Castro, Raul Castro and Che Guevara. The DPRK's army is not just there to show off, nor are its nukes. They need that shit to survive into the 21st century. And I can only laugh at the ignorance of those who say: "If they didn't spend so much on weapons, they could feed their people!" The fact of the matter is that they're already doing the best they can to farm every bit of land that is available to them(not much, it is a very mountainous country after all, much more than the south). And with sanctions against them, they can't just magically turn weapons or money into food. So please tell me what more you would like them to do to feed themselves.

2: Addressed above. There are sanctions. You've got to be a very arrogant fuckface to accuse the government of "starving its own people" while your own government may very well be taking part in a program to starve the country into submission.

3: In other words, no more USSR, GDR, Poland, Bulgaria, etc., etc. for trade, aid and solidarity. 60% of the DPRK's trade was with the USSR. That's a big blow.

4: Addressed in point 1. They just don't have all that much good land. It's a very mountainous country, much more so than the south, which, of course, can always rely on a lot of trading partners if anything should ever go wrong.

Add to that the natural disasters that happened lately(and the ones in the mid-90s that contributed to the famine in the first place), and it is no wonder that the DPRK has these kinds of problems. The disasters, to be precise, were a flood, a year of drought, and then a 26-foot-high tidal wave, all this from 1994-1997. Imagine if the Netherlands were diplomatically isolated, constantly risking a war with Belgium, and only received very limited trade and aid from the UK and France. And then suddenly a disaster like the Watersnoodramp of 1953, followed by a year-long drought and a tidal wave were to happen. We'd be fucked, and Holland doesn't even have mountains!

Opponents of the DPRK gloat over their starving children. For me, such events only increase my solidarity for these people. As for "inefficient bureaucracy", umm, what? They are trying to work on every inch of arable land, and workers from the cities and soldiers are actually being sent into the countryside to help in the harvest. Again, I ask: what else can they do?

Karl Marx's Camel
25th August 2006, 18:49
Health care there is free.

How free?

Wanted Man
25th August 2006, 19:42
Free as in: you don't have to pay for it.

Dr. Rosenpenis
25th August 2006, 19:51
I haven't read the thread... but in short: Juche, the philosophy followed by North Korea, can best be summed by the worship of Kim Il Sung, socialist economic policy, and national self-determination and independence.

Cuba, as has been stated, was politically independent from the Soviet bloc... unlike Eastern Europe. It is well-documented that their economic dependence on the Soviet bloc and the Soviet bloc's collapse caused an economic crisis of sorts in Cuba.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Vietnam also opened its market. So nowdays it looks a lot like China.

Wanted Man
25th August 2006, 20:06
Someone from Vietnam once told me that the country does indeed allow foreign companies in, but all Vietnamese who wish to work for such companies have to be members of a union to avoid unfair treatment.

norwegian commie
25th August 2006, 20:23
I just want to make one thing clear.

Cuba was indeed dependent on the sovjet economicly.
Cuba did have large trade deals and so on. But my fellow comrads, dont share the capitalistic wiew on Cuba, saying that the sovjet uppheld the cuban economy by using economic gifts and free goods. That is incorrect, sovjet had no intresst in this. What they did needed was sugar, rum ect.. That they an almost they alone bought. That made cuba dependent on them, meaning that when they collapsed, Cuba had problems. Cuba had no oil, sovjet did.

Cuban economy was upheld by the cuban worker, and the socialistic system.

Labor Shall Rule
25th August 2006, 20:56
Are the "sovjets" a band?

RevolutionaryMarxist
25th August 2006, 21:08
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 05:57 PM
Are the "sovjets" a band?
So mean :(

CCCPneubauten
25th August 2006, 22:41
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 07:51 AM
North Korea is a heavy dictatorship, Cuba is the closest thing to a communist government but it still isn't communist.
The DPRK follows the Juche ideal...read the works of Kim Il Sung before you just go "LOLZ DICK-TATOR-SHIP"

Karl Marx's Camel
26th August 2006, 11:12
socialist economic policy

In other words.... Kim Jong Il & co-owned economy?

Rollo
26th August 2006, 13:28
Originally posted by CCCPneubauten+Aug 26 2006, 05:42 AM--> (CCCPneubauten @ Aug 26 2006, 05:42 AM)
[email protected] 25 2006, 07:51 AM
North Korea is a heavy dictatorship, Cuba is the closest thing to a communist government but it still isn't communist.
The DPRK follows the Juche ideal...read the works of Kim Il Sung before you just go "LOLZ DICK-TATOR-SHIP" [/b]
I know about the Juche ideaology but I was trying to explain it more simple, communist governments can't evern exist I figured that would point that out.

Vargha Poralli
26th August 2006, 22:35
DPRK whether communist or not will continue to exist it current form of govt with the help of PRC as long as the chinese need a buffer zone from the us army in the 38 th parallel.

Cuban govt's existence solely rely on its people's strong resilence to severe US pressure.

Mesijs
27th August 2006, 18:58
@ Matthijs:

you post very much statistics about health care and wealth etc, but these don't have to do with socialism. I think capitalist countries like Sweden, Norway, Holland all outdo North-Korea by far.

You ask what they have to do. That's easy: respect the will of the people, stop the personal cultus around the president, install true democracy. You know, there is the death penalty if you scratch on a painting of the Great Leader. And why do they have heridatery (or how do you write it?) rule.

I'm not talking in matters of efforts. Maybe the people put a lot of effort in their work, but I'm talking about inefficiency in the bureaucracy.

*~ReD aPpLE~*
28th August 2006, 06:10
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 07:36 PM
DPRK whether communist or not will continue to exist it current form of govt with the help of PRC as long as the chinese need a buffer zone from the us army in the 38 th parallel.

Cuban govt's existence solely rely on its people's strong resilence to severe US pressure.
:huh: isnt the 38th parallel the side of a mountain dividing north and south? if the 38th parallel is serving as buffer to u.s. army then it is tantamount to saying u.s. army is based in south korea, is my understanding correct?

in fact, at the south korean side facing the 38 parallel are christian prayer mountains.

is it america that north korea and china wary about or is it japan?

Wanted Man
28th August 2006, 14:25
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 03:59 PM
you post very much statistics about health care and wealth etc, but these don't have to do with socialism. I think capitalist countries like Sweden, Norway, Holland all outdo North-Korea by far.
I'm sure they do. That's rather easy when you're in the fucking European Union! :rolleyes: Well, except Norway, but they still have lots of trade. What does the DPRK have?


You ask what they have to do. That's easy: respect the will of the people, stop the personal cultus around the president, install true democracy.
What is "the will of the people", why is that not the worship of the Kims(not that I'm in favour of it, I just don't really care), what is true democracy? And how does this relate to their economic problems?


You know, there is the death penalty if you scratch on a painting of the Great Leader.
You just made that up on the spot. Stop lying.


And why do they have heridatery (or how do you write it?) rule.
They don't. It could just as well have been someone else. It's true that Kim Il-sung himself designated Jong-il as his successor, but this was never officially legislated. I quote from this article (http://www.east-asia-intel.com/eai/Sample/2.html)(not exactly a pro-government source...):


Kim himself staged a ruthless power struggle with his uncle, Kim Young-Ju. He was victorious and ousted his half-brother, Kim Sung-Ju.

Contrary to the popular belief that Kim Il-Sung groomed his son to transfer power to him, Sohn's biography and the testimonies of other defectors confirm that Kim fought his way up. By 1987, even his father was under the junior Kim's control.

"You have to be shrewd to take the full control of the military, party and the bureaucrats in North Korea. Kim demonstrated the capability. He could not come where he was simply because he was the son of Kim Il-Sung," said Lee Hang-Koo, a long-time North Korea watcher who worked in South Korean military counterintelligence.

Of course, the article itself consists entirely of speculation, but tales of how his position as Kim Il-sung's son are the only reason he is where he is today are just as unlikely to me.


I'm not talking in matters of efforts. Maybe the people put a lot of effort in their work, but I'm talking about inefficiency in the bureaucracy.
Then I'm sure you can find some evidence of this inefficiency.

matiasm
28th August 2006, 14:59
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 05:25 AM

I said politically independant. I know it was economically dependant.

Ok, great, but I thought it needed to be clarified to red apple that there was a strong economic dependancy at least in Cubas case.

Besides, Cuba had a political one aswell; the USSR had made it clear (during the missile crisis) that they wouldn't accept an imperialist intervention on the island.

I'm under the impression Cuba's politics did differ from the soviet line on occasions though, especially towards the end.
Yeah but the political "relations" they both shared were severed, and righly so, when Che Guevara gave that truthful speech in Congo when he talked about developed socialist countries having the obligation to help other socialist developing countries, and blaming USSR of not doing so whilst using others for their politicaland and economical power!

*The Red leopard*
28th August 2006, 15:03
I know im new to this but i was wondering what is the difference between the cuban,north korean,chinese and the vietamese ways of socialism??

Vargha Poralli
28th August 2006, 19:01
(*~ReD aPpLE~*
Posted: Aug 28 2006, 03:11 AM
Report Post)isnt the 38th parallel the side of a mountain dividing north and south? if the 38th parallel is serving as buffer to u.s. army then it is tantamount to saying u.s. army is based in south korea, is my understanding correct?

in fact, at the south korean side facing the 38 parallel are christian prayer mountains.

is it america that north korea and china wary about or is it japan?


sorry dunno much about geography of that place. but there is a demilitarised zone of 4 km widt running along the 38th parallel to prevent another invasion.it is manned by US army in the south korean side.

*~ReD aPpLE~*
29th August 2006, 04:53
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 04:02 PM

(*~ReD aPpLE~*
Posted: Aug 28 2006, 03:11 AM
Report Post)isnt the 38th parallel the side of a mountain dividing north and south? if the 38th parallel is serving as buffer to u.s. army then it is tantamount to saying u.s. army is based in south korea, is my understanding correct?

in fact, at the south korean side facing the 38 parallel are christian prayer mountains.

is it america that north korea and china wary about or is it japan?


sorry dunno much about geography of that place. but there is a demilitarised zone of 4 km widt running along the 38th parallel to prevent another invasion.it is manned by US army in the south korean side.
vielen dank (many thanks) g.ram for the affirmation that is precisely one of the points in my post. the 38th parallel separating the north from the south and alledgedly serving as buffer. :)

how about japan coming into the scenario in the trilogy?

BurnTheOliveTree
1st September 2006, 22:40
QUOTE
You know, there is the death penalty if you scratch on a painting of the Great Leader.


You just made that up on the spot. Stop lying.



Umm, this one's true Mister man. Channel 4's Dispatches.

-Alex

Red Rebel
4th September 2006, 05:59
You know, there is the death penalty if you scratch on a painting of the Great Leader.

I'm not sure about the death penalty but you are punished.

Source (although its from China) the book Red Azalea by Anchee Min who lived in China during Mao's time. I am comparing NK's glorious leader to Chinas.

Labor Shall Rule
4th September 2006, 17:44
Originally posted by *The Red leopard*@Aug 28 2006, 12:04 PM
I know im new to this but i was wondering what is the difference between the cuban,north korean,chinese and the vietamese ways of socialism??
The Cuban Revolution was more of a populist insurrection that slowly transformed itself through socialistic economic policies towards that of Marxism. China and Vietnam are countries that experienced what the maoists call a "people's war". They followed a strange form of "Marxism-Leninism" that followed along the lines of "Mao Zedong thought". North Korea follows Juche.

RevolutionaryMarxist
4th September 2006, 17:49
Mao was quite nasty with his personality cult too,

Read "The Unknown Mao" by (What I percieved to be) Trotskyist Jung Chang. It is very revealing about how Mao secured his power and control through terror, murdering of countless comrades, and such, and the establishment of his personality cult like North Korea. I give this book a +, but as I'm only 80% through it, I am still unsure whether it's bourgeois propaganda either.

Overall it seems historically valid and persuasive.

Wanted Man
6th September 2006, 20:11
Wow, that's insane. Jung Chang a credible source? Even the bourgeois sources which agree that Mao "was a monster" are uneasy with her:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/a-swans-l...8563003642.html (http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/a-swans-little-book-of-ire/2005/10/07/1128563003642.html)
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/sto...1657292,00.html (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1657292,00.html)
http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/r...ticle224522.ece (http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/reviews/article224522.ece)

Historically valid my arse.

Jung Chang a Trotskyite? Wow, that's the most moronic thing I've ever read on this forum. Although no doubt the Trotskyites love using Jung as "evidence", the fact remains that she is a rich woman living in Notting Hill with her husband, served by a maid. But hey, let's ask the Trotskyites themselves what they think of this "historically valid" book:

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2005/401/mp5.htm

Not to mention the heaps of communist articles on it that completely burn it down.

Labor Shall Rule
7th September 2006, 02:11
"Mao: The Unknown Story", was a great read. Unfortunately, I would never classify this book as a "socialist" critique of Mao and the PRC. George Bush even read it, and declared that it was one of his most favorite books.