Cuban dissident prefers being in jail

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Cuban dissident prefers being in jail

By VANESSA ARRINGTON, Associated Press Writer 44 minutes ago

HAVANA - Activist Martha Beatriz Roque has an unusual request for the Cuban government: stop the harassment or send her back to jail.

The former political prisoner, who has opposed Fidel Castro for 17 years, says she can no longer endure the threats and insults by government supporters, who yell at her when she walks down the street and slip menacing notes under her door. Last weekend, they banged a pistol against her window in the middle of the night.

"This life has become just about impossible," Roque, one of Cuba's most high-profile dissidents, told The Associated Press in her small Havana apartment Tuesday. "I would rather be behind bars than dealing with this constant harassment."

Roque, an economist, was the lone woman among 75 people imprisoned in the spring of 2003 under a government crackdown on dissent. Given a 20-year sentence, she was released on parole for health reasons in July 2004.

In May 2005, she organized an unprecedented gathering of more than 200 dissidents to discuss promotion of a Western-style democracy in Cuba. James Cason, chief of the U.S. Interests Section in Havana, was among numerous diplomats who attended.

Roque said pressure has been building since July 2005, when Castro lashed out at opponents in his annual rebellion day speech, calling them "traitors" and "mercenaries" paid by the U.S. government. She said harassment has been steady since July 31, when Castro announced he was ceding power to his younger brother while he recovered from stomach surgery.

The slender, gray-haired 61-year-old suffers from diabetes as well as heart and blood-pressure problems.

"Are they doing this to give me a heart attack?" she asked half-jokingly.

The worst came in April, when she said she was repeatedly punched and slapped by a man and woman who rushed into her front room as she tried to leave her apartment. That month, a group of people who had recently moved into nearby units in her building spent a weekend painting the Cuban flag and fiery slogans in the passageway to her home.

The wall still reads "Long Live Fidel" and "Down With the Counterrevolutionaries." And every time Roque opens her door, she's greeted with a huge portrait of Castro, hung by his supporters.

"This has been an offensive with no end," she said.

Roque says she suspects that state security agents are among her new neighbors.

"Put me in a prison cell, where no one can bother me," said Roque, who sent letters to the island's Justice and Interior ministries in May asking the government to either stop the aggressive acts or put her back in jail. "I'm willing to make that sacrifice, to show the world that it's impossible to live in Cuba."

Earlier this month, the Justice Ministry told her the issue did not fall under its jurisdiction and that she should contact the attorney general's office. She's deciding whether to do that or, instead, to launch a protest outside government offices in Havana's Revolution Plaza.

When she was released in July 2004, Roque complained of conditions in her former jail cell, saying there were many bugs and large rats, and the toilet was a hole in the floor. But she said those discomforts pale in comparison to her current suffering.

"Anything is better than this — even my grave," she said.

Roque is among numerous dissidents who have complained of physical and psychological harassment by neighbors and suspected agents.

At least twice last year, scores of government faithful shouting revolutionary slogans surrounded the home of former political prisoner Vladimiro Roca, making it impossible for him to leave.

Wives of political prisoners were also targeted during a march to demand their husbands' release.

While the government has refrained from commenting on most cases, Foreign Minister Felipe Perez Roque declared after that incident that government supporters had every right to hold counterprotests as long as they remained "within ethics and limits."

Martha Beatriz Roque said she does not know whether things will get better or worse for activists under the leadership of Castro's brother, Defense Minister Raul Castro.

But she said eventual political and economic change in Cuba is inevitable.

"Raul Castro will not be able to maintain this for very long — that, I'm sure of," she said.

Associated Press (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060823/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cuba_dissident)

[Mesijs]

Yeah, very democratic... Hey, Hopscotch Anthill guy, are you reading?

[The Grinch]

While I hold no particular brief for the Cuban Regime isn't this


James Cason, chief of the U.S. Interests Section in Havana, was among numerous diplomats who attended.

direct evidence of association with a government that has declared economic warfare on Cuba?

I can't think of many regimes that are overly keen on people hosting representatives of their enemies.

[Wanted Man]

Beatriz Roque can go to hell for all I care. I have in my room a book that contains pictures of her chillaxin' with all kinds of figures from the American Interests Section. Eating, while supposedly on a "fast". I wish this woman would just shut up.

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 10:21 PM
Beatriz Roque can go to hell for all I care. I have in my room a book that contains pictures of her chillaxin' with all kinds of figures from the American Interests Section. Eating, while supposedly on a "fast". I wish this woman would just shut up.
So only freedom of speech for people you agree with? Very democratic indeed.

[The Grinch]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 10:37 PM
So only freedom of speech for people you agree with? Very democratic indeed.
Tell you what, try to organise a meeting in the US where you have prominant members of Al Qaeda attending. Let us know how it goes.

[More Fire for the People]

Awesome tactics by the Cuban government :D I'm glad to see a Cuban crackdown on counter-revolutionaries. Perhaps Mesijs would find more in common with them than say the leftist he pretends to be?


So only freedom of speech for people you agree with? Very democratic indeed.
It's not a question of who I agree with, it's a question of who is in my class. I'm from a working class family and support working class democracy. Roque is a member of the petty-bourgeoisie who has sided with the bourgeoisie so she should promptly fuck off and die.

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by The Grinch+Aug 23 2006, 10:39 PM--> (The Grinch @ Aug 23 2006, 10:39 PM)
[email protected] 23 2006, 10:37 PM
So only freedom of speech for people you agree with? Very democratic indeed.
Tell you what, try to organise a meeting in the US where you have prominant members of Al Qaeda attending. Let us know how it goes. [/b]
So you compare something who wants to reform the economy with someone from Al Qaeda?

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 23 2006, 10:44 PM
Awesome tactics by the Cuban government :D I'm glad to see a Cuban crackdown on counter-revolutionaries. Perhaps Mesijs would find more in common with them than say the leftist he pretends to be?
I just respect anyone's opinion, even if it's contrary to mine. That's something any democracy would do. So you supports countries that jail and mistreat people that don't support the government? I think that's why you call Cuba a democracy.

[The Grinch]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 10:44 PM
So you compare something who wants to reform the economy with someone from Al Qaeda?
No, I compare someone who openly associates with representatives of a hostile government with Al Qaeda.

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 04:46 PM
I just respect anyone's opinion, even if it's contrary to mine. That's something any democracy would do. So you supports countries that jail and mistreat people that don't support the government? I think that's why you call Cuba a democracy.
No, you see, unlike you, I am a leftist. I support the working class. I support working class democracy and working class dissent. You on the other had are a capitalist and, yes, one day you will be crushed and your ideas smashed. You will be gone: forever cast into the dustbin of history. I support any means to crush non-working class counter-revolutionaries: jailings, censorship, public executions, etc.

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by The Grinch+Aug 23 2006, 10:48 PM--> (The Grinch @ Aug 23 2006, 10:48 PM)
[email protected] 23 2006, 10:44 PM
So you compare something who wants to reform the economy with someone from Al Qaeda?
No, I compare someone who openly associates with representatives of a hostile government with Al Qaeda. [/b]
Right... Does she support the Iraq War? Does she support killing of innocent Cubans? Don't think so. She would like another government form in Cuba, so coincidentally it's a representative from a country with another government form.

It's not like organizing a meeting with Bin Laden. Bin Laden (supposedly) ordered to destroy the Twin Towers and to kill thousands of civilians. We're now talking about someone who wants to change the government form and has been jailed for it many years. What do you think about that?

[Phugebrins]

I noticed this phrase, too: "James Cason, chief of the U.S. Interests Section in Havana, was among numerous diplomats who attended." - but my reaction was 'If there were two-hundred people there, and "numerous" foreign diplomats attended, how many actual Cubans were there'?

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by Mesijs+Aug 23 2006, 04:53 PM--> (Mesijs @ Aug 23 2006, 04:53 PM)
Originally posted by The [email protected] 23 2006, 10:48 PM

[email protected] 23 2006, 10:44 PM
So you compare something who wants to reform the economy with someone from Al Qaeda?
No, I compare someone who openly associates with representatives of a hostile government with Al Qaeda.
Right... Does she support the Iraq War? Does she support killing of innocent Cubans? Don't think so. She would like another government form in Cuba, so coincidentally it's a representative from a country with another government form. [/b]
Did you even read the article?


Roque, an economist...

In May 2005, she organized an unprecedented gathering of more than 200 dissidents to discuss promotion of a Western-style democracy in Cuba. James Cason, chief of the U.S. Interests Section in Havana, was among numerous diplomats who attended...
But she said eventual political and economic change in Cuba is inevitable.

"Raul Castro will not be able to maintain this for very long — that, I'm sure of," she said...

She wants full on capitalism, the destruction of workers' power, and the US dick up the Cuban ass. I wasn't serious before, but you really are a shit for brains.

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by Hopscotch Anthill+Aug 23 2006, 10:51 PM--> (Hopscotch Anthill @ Aug 23 2006, 10:51 PM)
[email protected] 23 2006, 04:46 PM
I just respect anyone's opinion, even if it's contrary to mine. That's something any democracy would do. So you supports countries that jail and mistreat people that don't support the government? I think that's why you call Cuba a democracy.
No, you see, unlike you, I am a leftist. I support the working class. I support working class democracy and working class dissent. You on the other had are a capitalist and, yes, one day you will be crushed and your ideas smashed. You will be gone: forever cast into the dustbin of history. I support any means to crush non-working class counter-revolutionaries: jailings, censorship, public executions, etc. [/b]
Good. So if for example before a revolution 65% is working class and 35% bourgeoise, and then there's a revolution, you support a genocide against 35% of the population? Your opinions are no worse than Hitler's or Stalin's (I suppose you support the latter, because in your opinion he would be a 'working class democrat').

[The Grinch]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 10:53 PM
Does she support killing of innocent Cubans? Don't think so. She would like another government form in Cuba, so coincidentally it's a representative from a country with another government form.

It's not just any government.

It's a government that has backed large numbers of terrorist attacks on Cuba, so the analogy stands- http://www.alternet.org/story/40370/


So yes, in effect she does support the killing of innocent Cubans. Or at least is happy to ally with those who do.

If this was genuine working class dissidents in Cuba I'd support them. But it isn't. It's somebody who is happy to ally with a regime that is an enemy of Cuba and has attacked them economically and with terrorism.

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 04:58 PM
Good. So if for example before a revolution 65% is working class and 35% bourgeoise, and then there's a revolution, you support a genocide against 35% of the population? Your opinions are no worse than Hitler's or Stalin's (I suppose you support the latter, because in your opinion he would be a 'working class democrat').
Well for one, nine-tenths of the population is working class. The vast majority of the one-tenth that is bourgeoisie will most likely capitulate to the ranks of the working class out of fear because of what we have done to those that did not capitulate. Oh, and mate I'm a Trotskyist.

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by Hopscotch Anthill+Aug 23 2006, 10:57 PM--> (Hopscotch Anthill @ Aug 23 2006, 10:57 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by The [email protected] 23 2006, 10:48 PM

[email protected] 23 2006, 10:44 PM
So you compare something who wants to reform the economy with someone from Al Qaeda?
No, I compare someone who openly associates with representatives of a hostile government with Al Qaeda.
Right... Does she support the Iraq War? Does she support killing of innocent Cubans? Don't think so. She would like another government form in Cuba, so coincidentally it's a representative from a country with another government form.
Did you even read the article?


Roque, an economist...

In May 2005, she organized an unprecedented gathering of more than 200 dissidents to discuss promotion of a Western-style democracy in Cuba. James Cason, chief of the U.S. Interests Section in Havana, was among numerous diplomats who attended...
But she said eventual political and economic change in Cuba is inevitable.

"Raul Castro will not be able to maintain this for very long — that, I'm sure of," she said...

She wants full on capitalism, the destruction of workers' power, and the US dick up the Cuban ass. I wasn't serious before, but you really are a shit for brains. [/b]
Haha, very nice interpreting. I'm going to interpret it myself.

She would like another democracy, where people with another opinion are not put into jail. She would also like to stop the American embargo. She would also like economic reforms, because almost 50 years after the revolution people are still living in shit. She also wants to get rid of senile despots currently opressing the people.

That's my interpretation.

And please stop insulting people. It's very childlike.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

In other words.. She'd rather be in jail (where she was put for working for a foreign government to overthrow the revolution), so she can cry about "government repression", than being in the street, where the vast majority of Cubans are against her counter-revolutionary activities.... cause it's even hard for the right-wingers to argue that's somehow a part of "government repression".

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by Hopscotch Anthill+Aug 23 2006, 11:03 PM--> (Hopscotch Anthill @ Aug 23 2006, 11:03 PM)
[email protected] 23 2006, 04:58 PM
Good. So if for example before a revolution 65% is working class and 35% bourgeoise, and then there's a revolution, you support a genocide against 35% of the population? Your opinions are no worse than Hitler's or Stalin's (I suppose you support the latter, because in your opinion he would be a 'working class democrat').
Well for one, nine-tenths of the population is working class. The vast majority of the one-tenth that is bourgeoisie will most likely capitulate to the ranks of the working class out of fear because of what we have done to those that did not capitulate. Oh, and mate I'm a Trotskyist. [/b]
Okay, but theoretically, if 35% would be bourgeoise and if they would not capitulate, you would support killing them.



It's not just any government.

It's a government that has backed large numbers of terrorist attacks on Cuba, so the analogy stands- http://www.alternet.org/story/40370/


So yes, in effect she does support the killing of innocent Cubans. Or at least is happy to ally with those who do.

If this was genuine working class dissidents in Cuba I'd support them. But it isn't. It's somebody who is happy to ally with a regime that is an enemy of Cuba and has attacked them economically and with terrorism.

The terrorist attacks on Cuban people are disgusting, but she doesn't support them automatically. She was having a meeting and a diplomat of the US attended, that's all. It's not like she is in an axis of evil with someone to install an exploitative capitalist dictatorship while enjoying dying Cubans. That's only your interpretation.

But theoretically, if she wasn't aligned with US people, would you support this mistreatment?

[The Grinch]

She does want the embargo lifted, but not for the good of the Cuban people.

MARTA BEATRIZ ROQUE: I'm against the embargo. I would like that the embargo will be lifted.

PAUL SOLMAN: Because?

MARTA BEATRIZ ROQUE (Translated): Because I believe Cuban society needs contact with North American society. We need to be in touch with capitalism.

So stop kidding yourself that Roque is some kind of progressive democratic socialist. She's a capitalist, pure and simple.

And, the Miami exiles, the ones who were involved in the terrorist attacks I mentioned earlier:

MARTA BEATRIZ ROQUE (Translated): I have family outside. I have support. Many friends in the U.S., especially in Miami, help us.

(Taken from http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin_ameri...cuba_7-18.html) (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin_america/july-dec01/cuba_7-18.html))

How can you, as any kind of socialist whatsoever, support someone who wants capitalism and is allied with the pro Batista exiles?

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 23 2006, 11:11 PM
She does want the embargo lifted, but not for the good of the Cuban people.

MARTA BEATRIZ ROQUE: I'm against the embargo. I would like that the embargo will be lifted.

PAUL SOLMAN: Because?

MARTA BEATRIZ ROQUE (Translated): Because I believe Cuban society needs contact with North American society. We need to be in touch with capitalism.

So stop kidding yourself that Roque is some kind of progressive democratic socialist. She's a capitalist, pure and simple.

And, the Miami exiles, the ones who were involved in the terrorist attacks I mentioned earlier:

MARTA BEATRIZ ROQUE (Translated): I have family outside. I have support. Many friends in the U.S., especially in Miami, help us.

(Taken from http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin_ameri...cuba_7-18.html) (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin_america/july-dec01/cuba_7-18.html))

How can you, as any kind of socialist whatsoever, support someone who wants capitalism and is allied with the pro Batista exiles?
You are thinking too much in black and whit. I would not support capitalism in Cuba, nor any closer ties with the US. But I neither support the current one-man dictatorship of Fidel Castro. I support socialism, therefore I neither support her ideas neither Fidel's policy.

Your interpreting in this case is also wrong. She does not say that she doesn't want it because of the Cuban people. And assuming that every Cuban exile in Miami is a terrorist is proposterous.

I only support the right for everyone to organize and to criticize the government. But supposedly a lot of people on the forum wants to follow one man blindly and assuming everything he does as great.

[The Grinch]

Then find me just one quote where she either condemns Batista or the terrorist attacks against Cuban civilians.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

She would like another democracy, where people with another opinion are not put into jail.

This is pure bullshit. Even the enemies of the revolution claim there are 72 "dissidents" in Cuban jails.. so either there are only 72 people in Cuba who oppose the revolution.. which would mean it is a widely popular and democratic revolution (since democracy is majority rule).. or you're absolutely incorrect and people "with another opinion" are not put into jail.

Of course the latter is true. Have you heard of the "Women in White"? Look them up.. they protest regularly in Cuba (they protest the arrests and jailings of their husbands, who were found to be on the payroll of the U.S. Government).. they've been doing it for a long time.. they're not in jail..

But yeah, groups of Cubans counter-demonstrate against them, because they're counter-revolutionaries.. and the majority of Cubans support the revolution.

If you think that there's any country in the world where you can be under the pay of a foreign government, working to overthrow the government of your country, and not be put in jail, you're fooling yourself. If you think in a workers' state, counter revolutionaries who are under the pay of imperialist powers, working actively to overthrow the revolution, shouldn't be put in jail, or worse, then you're not serious about revolution.

What should Cuba do, invite them to meet with Fidel and Raul? Would that make the liberals here happy?


She would also like to stop the American embargo.

No she wouldn't.. she wouldn't like to smash the embargo, in anti-imperialist fashion.. she'd like to reinstate capitalism, and open the Cuban economy completely to U.S. capitalists.. sure they'd "drop the embargo" then, cause they'd have their colony back.


She would also like economic reforms, because almost 50 years after the revolution people are still living in shit.

You must be joking right?

Literacy was only 54% before the revolution, it's 100% now.. and has been for decades.

Life expectancy was 55 years before the revolution, it's 78 years now.

Infant mortality was 60/1000 before the revolution, it's 5.8/1000 now. Lower than the U.S. and other imperialist countries.

In every social indicator, Cuba surpases any comparible country (i.e. any former colony with latifundia land ownership) or any third world country period.


She also wants to get rid of senile despots currently opressing the people.

:lol: You've got some friends waiting in Miami... I'm sure they'll give you a job in their terrorist organizations.. why don't you go check it out.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 11:03 PM
\

Haha, very nice interpreting. I'm going to interpret it myself.

She would like another democracy

For who is this democracy for?


, where people with another opinion are not put into jail.

The pro-US elements you love to defend do this crap all the time.


She would also like to stop the American embargo.

By turning Cuba into a poverty-ridden Haiti.


She would also like economic reforms,

And by this, it means a colossal collapse of culture and the productive forces by reverting back to capitalism.


because almost 50 years after the revolution people are still living in shit.

Thanks largely to the US embargo.


She also wants to get rid of senile despots currently opressing the people.

Where did she say anything about opposing such capitalists?

Cuba is a deformed workers' state, true, but it is not so simple as to merely oppose it. It must be defended from all forms of imperialism, for the Cubans are better off now than under capitalism (just look at what capitalism has done to Russia.). It can only be changed by working class movement, and thanks to the peculiar nature of the Stalinist state, this can open up honest disucssion about genuine soicalism and such (they have not outlawed Trotskyist works being sold, etc.).

[Mesijs]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 23 2006, 11:18 PM
Then find me just one quote where she either condemns Batista or the terrorist attacks against Cuban civilians.
So if I don't say I don't like anyone, I automatically like him. This is just an absurd reasoning. Does she say she likes Batista or the terrorists? No she doesn't. And by the way, she says she wants democracy so she doesn't like Batista.

To CompañeroDeLibertad

Of course, when you are a true spy you should be jailed. However, it seems like in your opinion political opposition is not possible at all.

And Cuban is still third world. They have no industry, no modernization, poor people. Just search up the average wage. They don't have any luxury.

And when I don't like dictatorial one-man rule, I like terrorist? What kind of logic is that?

[The Grinch]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 11:30 PM
So if I don't say I don't like anyone, I automatically like him. This is just an absurd reasoning. Does she say she likes Batista or the terrorists? No she doesn't. And by the way, she says she wants democracy so she doesn't like Batista.

No, if you hang round with the supporters of terrorist attacks on Cuba, while not saying one word against them, your motives are suspect to say the least.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

But theoretically, if she wasn't aligned with US people, would you support this mistreatment?

She isn't aligned with the "US people". She's aligned with the U.S. government. Big difference.


How can you, as any kind of socialist whatsoever, support someone who wants capitalism and is allied with the pro Batista exiles?

He can't. But then, he's not "any kind of socialist".. he's a pro-capitalist gusano supporter.


She does not say that she doesn't want it because of the Cuban people.

Yeah, "capitalism for the people" .. :lol: We know how good that works out.


And assuming that every Cuban exile in Miami is a terrorist is proposterous.

"Exiles" is a funny term for people that left on their own will.. cause they couldn't "make it big" exploiting people.. because they didn't want to cooperate.. or because their businesses were shut down.

Of course there are some that left cause they bought into the US and gusano propaganda, but they're few.. and most of them have come since the 80's.. as well, most of that handful doesn't actively work to overthrow the Cuban revolution like the gusanos.

ALL the gusanos.. all the scum bags you seen on FOX NEWS dancing in the street when Fidel first fell ill in what Alarcon called "a vomit inducing spectacle".. they support right-wing, CIA-backed terrorism against the Cuban people.


But I neither support the current one-man dictatorship of Fidel Castro.

This has been refuted so many times it's almost not even worth commenting on anymore..

This'll probably be one of the last times I do so..

I mean, anyone that's bothered to study the Cuban system even a little bit knows that this is nonsense.

From the Cuba Truth Project (http://www.cubatruth.info): "There is a one party government in Cuba, but that does not mean that democracy doesn't exist there. In fact, there are more differences in the Communist Party in Cuba than there are between the Democrats and Republicans in the United States! The Cuban people are very active in their work places through their unions and in local and national elections, where normal working people are nominated and elected by a vote of 50% of more--in the US you need large amounts of money to run for office, and canidates are often elected by only 20% of the electorate. In Cuba 99% of eligable people vote, in the United States less than 50% do.

Indeed, this "dictatorship" in Cuba is very strange, because everyone calls the president by his first name, like when they see him in the street, the highest government officials play baseball in their short sleeves with the rest of the people, the entire population is armed, everyone knows how to read, decisions are made by common consent, prostitutes are sent to school and taught another occupation, government officials meet with the workers to discuss salaries and production and the people interrupt the prime minister's speeches to criticize certain ministers or officials!

For more info see: Is Cuba democratic? (http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/democracy.htm), Let's talk about Cuban democracy (http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/democracy.htm), and The truth about Cuba (http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/democracy.htm)," "Is Fidel Castro a dictator (http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/dictator.htm)," "Five reasons why the people rule Cuba (http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/cubasi_article.asp?ArticleID=53)," "Participation is key to Cuba’s democracy" (http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/cubasi_article.asp?ArticleID=50).

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

And Cuban is still third world.

Yeah of course! WTF? How do you suggest they overcome that while imperialism exists? That's why we fight for world revolution..

But even being a third world country, they match many imperialist countries in alot of social indicators.. something no other third world country has been able, or willing, to do ever, in history. Why is that?


They have no industry, no modernization, poor people.

No industry? Are you kidding? At least open a book before you start shitting out of your mouth. "The Cubans have built formidable pharmaceutical, genetic engineering and biotechnology industries, and have twenty scientific research centers investigating products from inexpensive pharmaceuticals to "green medicine." That's not to mention food industries (soda plants, beer plants, packaged and canned food plants), construction industries (concrete plants, block plants), energy industries (power plants, oil processing), etc. etc.

No modernization? "Ninety-four percent of the population has electrical service in Cuba, surpassing the rest of Latin America and the Caribbean by some 20%. Television reaches even remote mountain areas and Cuban radio covers the entire island."

Poor people? Yeah.. it's a third world country remember? But no homeless people. Not one. Only 1.4% unemployment. No starvation. "The UN recently announced that Cuba is the only country in Latin America that has no malnutrition." ... "The majority of Cubans own their homes. "


Just search up the average wage. They don't have any luxury.

There average wages are low in comparison to say.. a U.S. wage.. but ummm, the cost of living isn't even remotely the same. Most Cubans own their homes.. the ones who don't pay 10% of their wages as rent.. "Gas bills in Cuba average 2-4 pesos (8-16 cents) a month; electricity 5-7 pesos (20-28 cents) a month; telephone 6-8 pesos (24-32 cents) a month, the first 300 minutes being free."

Public transportation and child care are subsidized to the point of almost being free.. food is subsidized and distributed equally.. health care and education are absolutely free.

Luxuries? Almost half of the people in the world don't even have the luxury of clean drinking water.

Get the fuck out of here.

[LSD]

It's not a question of who I agree with, it's a question of who is in my class.

Right, because "class spite" is such a mature position... :rolleyes:

Besides, class is only relevent in pre-revolutionary and revolution situations. In postrevolutionary society, classes as they are presently structured will not exist.

You seem to be approaching class as if it were ethnicity, something that is pased down from generation to generation to generation.

Obviously class perpetuates itself -- that's the whole point of the "traditional family" -- but only to a point. If material circumstances intervene, one's class can radically varry from the class of one's parents.

When the child of a bourgeois father is unable to attain control over the means of production, he ceases to be bourgeois. If he is then forced to take a job wherein which he sells his labour power to survive, he becomes, by any definition, a worker.

Following a successful workers' revolution, that will be the situation for every bourgeois son. Despite the best wishes of reactionary parents, there will simply be no material opportunities for bourgeois propagation.

After the workers have sized control over production and have kicked out the bosses and their parasitic "managerial clique", there will be no room for capitalist survival.

In less than a generation the class will be extinct.

Accordingly, any society that still has a thriving bourgeoisie is, by definition, not a workers' state.

Therefore your claim that Roque is an agent of the petty-bourgeoisie (or even the haute bourgeoisie!) means one of two things: either you are incorrect in your analysis of Ms. Roque and she is not an agent of the bourgeoisie, or correct in your analysis and there remains a potent Cuban bourgeoisie.

Either way your position is flawed.

Personally, I am of the firm opinion that Ms. Roque is not only an agent of the United States, but is an agent of the very alive Cuban bourgeoisie which has a class interest in removing any lingering socialist restrictions on their freedom of action.

Look, it would be wonderful if Cuba really were a "workers state" or the democratic haven that its apologists love to advertise it as, but the reality is that, while the Cuban government has done a lot of good, it remains an oppressive and, ultimately, class-based elitist managerial clique.

Class in Cuba is somewhat complicated by the enormous power of the state. Like in the former Soviet Republics, the bureacratic elite is a de facto rulling class in and of itself, often competing with the bourgeoisie for power and resources, but also often co-operating in the struggle against their common enemy, the Cuban working class.

We can debate for hours about just how "democratic" Cuba is, but it's all smoke and mirrors. Cuba doesn't have a democracy, Cuba doesn't even claim to have a democracy. It claims to have a republic. That form of government invented by the bourgeosie to give their political domination that tinge of "letitimacy".

None of us actually live in Cuba so none of us can say just how much "input" the Cuban populace actually has in selecting its "leaders", but the very fact that Cuba even has leaders and that these leaders are seperate from the working class, tells us more about the nature of Cuban society than any array of statistics ever could.

A society that is truly run by its working class would not be bourgeois repuplicanism painted red. And yet that is precisely what Cuba is.

Again, there's a lot of good things that can be said of the Cuba government, but it's a government and it's a bourgeois one and so, as communists, we have no business supportiing it.


I support any means to crush non-working class counter-revolutionaries: jailings, censorship, public executions, etc.

And who gets to decide who are "non-working class counter-revolutionaries"? You?

"Counterrevolution" is probably one of the most abused words in the english language. Over the past hundred so years, it has been used to justify all manngers of atrocities and always in the name of "the people" or "the cause".

Well, it's time for leftst theory to move beyond the petty emotionalism of spite-based politics.

Yes, reactionaries are our enemies and yes, if they ever got back into power they would oppress us all. But we are not the bourgeoisie. We have no obligation to "treat them in turn" or to "revenge ourselves" upon them.

Revolution is not just another transfer of power in the long train of power transfers that shape political history, it is an unprecedented shift in the manner of governance. It is the transfer of authority, for the first time, to the majority instead of the elites.

Such a society cannot be built on suppression and murder.


Good. So if for example before a revolution 65% is working class and 35% bourgeoise, and then there's a revolution, you support a genocide against 35% of the population?

Don't be an ass.

No one wants to "exterminate" the bourgeoisie, we just want to take away their ability to exploit us. We seek their elimination as a class, not as individuals.

Following the postrevolutionary re-organization, former capitalists will be free to do as they like so long as they do not threaten the new society. They will enjoy the same rights as everyone else and will certainly not be subject to "genocide".

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

And now we get a great revelation from LSD.. the resident anarcho-professor.

Classes still exist in socialism...

In case you didn't know that socialism wasn't communism, LSD has made that clear here... :rolleyes:

Next he breaks more new ground in telling us that bureaucracies arise in small imperialist-oppressed countries trying to build socialism in a capitalist-imperialist dominated world. Imagine!!

Then, the great thinker insists that Cuba is run by a bureacracy that has become the ruling class itself! It must be the most giving and selfless ruling class to the working class ever, and one that keeps itself at a standard of living not really even measurably above that of the average Cuban! Of course, we know that this is pure idealism, and that if the ruling class of Cuba was a class other than the proletariat, it would act in its own interests.. like it has in every capitalist society in history.. it would never make internationalists moves like sending almost its entire military to Angola to fight against racist, imperialist invadors, when it had not a single investment in Angola, nor did it stand to benefit financially in any way whatsoever..but I guess Cuba's the exception from material reality! :lol:

Before parting, the master LSD goes on to tell us that in his perfect little revolution, there will no need to fight the counter-revolutionaries (a word that's not hard to define.. someone who fights actively against the revolution is a counter-revolutionary).. they'll just melt away naturally into the ultra-democratic decentralized leaderless classless councils which will spontaneously arise... they'll be "free to do as they like so long as they do not threaten the new society".. because as we've seen throughout history.. anytime the capitalists are overthrown, they usually just say "okay, no problemo" and join in with the revolution..

Oh wait, that's never, ever happened.

[More Fire for the People]

:lol: CdL you are my hero. LSD the working class exists under socialism. How else will things be produced? Will we take LSD and pretend production is happening?

[LSD]

And now we get a great revelation from LSD.. the resident anarcho-professor.

Classes still exist in socialism...

Actually, that's your theory, not mine.

My position, again, is that following a genuine workers' revolution, the bourgeois class cannot remain a potent force. The capitalist class is defined by its relation to the means of production, if that relation no longer exists, neither does the class.

The fact that, in your own judgment, there remains a powerful Cuban bourgeoisie means that Cuba cannot be "socialist" or "a workers state".


Then, the great thinker insists that Cuba is run by a bureacracy that has become the ruling class itself! It must be the most giving and selfless ruling class to the working class ever

Not really.

The Cuban bureaucratic class is fighting for power with the ever resilient local bourgeoisie. By keeping the people relatively satisfied, they assure that no bourgeois counterrevolution will occur and their position of authority will not be challenged.

It's no different from the myriad of social programmes introduced by Stalin and his successors.

Even Kim Jon Il pays lip service to the "idealist" of communism. Keeping the people molified is as old as government itself.

Is the Canadian bourgeoisie "more selfless" than the American one? No? Why not? It's made consessions that the American capitalists would never make.

Hmmm, could it be that the level class exploitation isn't dependent on "selfnessless", but on material and historical conditions? :o

The Cuban working class has managed to force a split in its rulling class. The same split that defined all the other so-called "socialist states" throughout history. Instead of the bourgeoisie rulling unchallenged, it must contend with a powerful and well-supported managerial class. That limits the degree to which it can exploit the working class and forces the state to make consessions to secure its power.

That's why living standards collapsed following the fall of the Soviet Union. One rulling class can get away with things that two rulling classes couldn't.

That doesn't mean that bureaucratic capitalism is the way to go. It just means that it tends to be better than laissez-faire. Actual worker self-governance, however, beats both of them by a mile!


it would never make internationalists moves like sending almost its entire military to Angola to fight against racist, imperialist invadors, when it had not a single investment in Angola, nor did it stand to benefit financially in any way whatsoever..

It sure standed to gain politically, though.

Castro has always been a very politically minded leader and he is aware, probably more than anyone, how important it is to keep Cuba's image up, both domestically and in the rest of the world.

Cuba's foreign policy is as much about appearance as it is about charity. Not that charity is incompatible with bureaucratic rule.

After all, the bureaucrats aren't the ones shipping off to Angola or Venezuela. Rulling elites are human too and, especially in ideologically charged states, they often buy into their own propaganda.

I have no doubt that a large part of the Cuban government genuinely believes that it is a part of a revolutionary vanguard and that it is serving and internationalist proletarian agenda.

But "belief" does not define class.

The government of the Republic of Cuba has direct control over the means of production. That relationship is what defines its econoomic class. Whether it admits that or not, whether it is even "representative" or not, is ultimately irrelevent.

The American bourgeoisie also sees itself as the "defenders" of "freedom" and its puppet government is just as "representative" as Cuba's (if not more so). Somehow, though, you seem less willing to buy their self-description.

Look, I understand the temptation to buy into the Cuba myth, but the facts speak for themselves. If the workers truly ruled in Cuba, there could be no other classes, save perhaps a lingering peasantry.

There are capitalists in Cuba, CdL, and by definition that means that bosses are runing production, not the workers.

Sorry. :(


Before parting, the master LSD goes on to tell us that in his perfect little revolution, there will no need to fight the counter-revolutionaries

Where precisely did I say that?

I rejected Hopscotch's calls for censorship and "public executions", but I never claimed that the revolution would be easy or bloodless.

Following the revolution, however, there is no need to "censor" or "arrest" dissidents. Those who actively attempt to violate the rights of others must be stopped, but statements cannot be taken as signs of "threat".

Should I take it that you disagree? That you support wide-scale censorship of any suspected "counterrevolutionaries" by some "socialist state"?

How exactly does that differ from every other attempt at socialism in the twentieth century? Haven't you learnt anything from the abysmal failure of "socialist governments"?

The only way for the workers to free themselves is for the workers to free themselves. No state, no Republic, no "representatives", and no bosses!


anytime the capitalists are overthrown, they usually just say "okay, no problemo" and join in with the revolution..

No, usually they get jobs with the new government and go right back to managing the economy.

Meanwhile the workers on who's behalf the revolution was ostensibly fought end up trading one asshole boss for another (or sometimes even the same one).

As long as control of production is not directly in the hands of the working class, using the adjective "worker" in reference to that society is inappropriate. You could call Cuba socialistic, you could even call it social-democratic (although, again, the extent of Cuban "democracy" is highly contensious), but you cannot call it a "workers' state".

The people running the Cuban government are not workers, they're politician. A lot of those politicians may be genuinely nice people, but they're still a parasitic disease on the body of the working class.

You don't need to take LSD to see what's right in front of your face.

[Mesijs]

Great posts LSD.

[Conghaileach]

So a few Cuban citizens take exception to a US spy living in their midst and all of a sudden it's indicative of the dictatorship in Cuba and the stifling of dissent?

Get real.

[metalero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 07:34 PM
Cuba's foreign policy is as much about appearance as it is about charity. Not that charity is incompatible with bureaucratic rule.


You think Cuba has enough resources to go out and give charity? or you define "Charity" by providing third world countries struggling against colonialism and oppresion with military assitance, doctors, teachers to erradicate illiteracy and improve material conditions for the working class so they can organize and prepare for socialism? That would be the only "burocratic elite" in the world to keep spreading internationalist socialism and working class consciousness.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Yes, great post, LSD.


For more info see: Is Cuba democratic?, Let's talk about Cuban democracy, and The truth about Cuba," "Is Fidel Castro a dictator," "Five reasons why the people rule Cuba," "Participation is key to Cuba’s democracy".


THAT source is not reliable, as has been proven before.


Would you comment this, CompañeroDeLibertad?


http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...c=54383&hl=cuba (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=54383&hl=cuba)