who is the real enemy?

[Monks Aflame]

I recently read an article about the Iraq situation. US soldiers are being taxed by the guerilla war they are fighting. They are becoming increasingly paranoid and jumpy. They shoot at anybody in the cities, because they drop leaflets beforehand letting people know they're coming is "so whoever is there is a combatant." In some aspects, this is similar to the My Lai massacre, where soldiers were gunning down civilians in the village of My Lai and, reportedly, enjoying it with big grins. Who is the victim, and who is the enemy? Of course the innocent civilian casualties are victims. But I feel, so are the soldiers caught in this situation. I trace fault back to the administration(s) that caused the war and ordered troops in and brought death.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I agree, Comrade Monks Aflame. It is easy to blame the men carrying the guns. The force behind the guns, though, is the military-industrial complex.

It is the corporations bribing the politicians to get huge defense contracts. Having so many tanks and helicopters sitting around makes the militarists twitchy to get out and use them. After all, they have to test their weapons in real combat to see if they really work.

It is the imperialist ruling class coveting the natural resources of the developing world. It is American oil corporations talking their handpicked "president" into seizing Iraq's oil fields.

It is the poverty that comes inevitably with the capitalist system that forces poor men and women to join the armed forces. The naive are rounded up into military bases and made callous in "basic training." The soldiers are forced to idle uselessly so that when given the "privilege" of combat, they will take it rather than continue on their stagnant way.

When the US goes to war to feed its imperialism (which has been every war from the last fifty years, at least), there are many victims:
1. The people of the country (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Nicaragua, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan)
2. The men and women of the US armed forces (for being twisted psychologically and then forced to execute in the name of capitalism)
3. The proletariat of the US (who will lose family members since they are the ones who give their sons and daughters to the military; now also with our assaults upon the Middle East, terrorists will attack American targets--their victims will be working class people)

The only winners in this system are the big corporations and their favorite lackeys (eg: politicians like Bush). And that is why we are anti-capitalists... because this slaughter has claimed too many workers. We must rip the militarist butchers from power and make them face justice for their crimes against humanity.

[LOIC]

"Who is the victim, and who is the enemy? Of course the innocent civilian casualties are victims. But I feel, so are the soldiers caught in this situation. "

u$ soldiers are murderers and they are not forced to join the army. They choose to do this job and most of them are proud of it.
So, how can they be considered as victims when they kill civilians?


(Edited by LOIC at 11:29 pm on July 15, 2003)

[jehenna]

firstly it is the fault of the soldiers for continuing to go into the cities knowing they are too stressed to deal with the circumstances appropriately - though if they were to be unaware of the levels of their stress it would be blamed on those who have not trained them to know their own limits.

secondly it is the fault of the military command, for not implementing proper (more frequent) troop rotation, if a soldier will become unable to deal with the situation over time, then they have been active for too long.

thirdly it is the fault of those who wished to fight a cheap war - as it could be considered there are not enough troops in iraq to properly allow those off duty sufficient time to rest.

that answers your question i think, putting aside the actual validity of the war itself.

[Nobody]

It is the fault of the government and High Command for sending them to an area were they gun down innocents. Plus the GI's are guilty too.

[elijahcraig]

Most of the soldiers are workers, it's a classic case of sending workers to fight your war at their loss, and then the bosses moving in and taking the profits. The soldiers are at fault some for being fooled, but it is in final analysis the fault of the bosses.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Most of the soldiers are workers, it's a classic case of sending workers to fight your war at their loss, and then the bosses moving in and taking the profits. The soldiers are at fault some for being fooled, but it is in final analysis the fault of the bosses.

I agree. Good analysis, Comrade elijahcraig. It is important to remember the soldiers are fooled by massive propaganda efforts in this country. First of all, violence is glorified. The top sport in the US is American football, which is a sort of modern-day gladiator sport. Secondly, serving in the military is made to be about exciting adventures in distant lands, job skills, and bravely defending the homeland. Those that are fooled into enlisting are systematically brainwashed in "basic training." It also bears mention that many who join the military are in such a pathetic state in the society that there is no better job available than to make yourself a target in the olive-drab uniform of the conquerors.

[CopperGoat]

Those military corporations make me sick....


* Barf *

[Felicia]

Fuck the US military. :angry:

[redstar2000]

It is important to remember the soldiers are fooled by massive propaganda efforts in this country. First of all, violence is glorified. The top sport in the US is American football, which is a sort of modern-day gladiator sport. Secondly, serving in the military is made to be about exciting adventures in distant lands, job skills, and bravely defending the homeland. Those that are fooled into enlisting are systematically brainwashed in "basic training." It also bears mention that many who join the military are in such a pathetic state in the society that there is no better job available than to make yourself a target in the olive-drab uniform of the conquerors.

All of this is true enough, of course...and yet.

Most young Americans are not fooled. Most would no more join the military then they'd cut off their legs. Most might even support an imperialist war...but not with their own bodies.

So I ask myself: what makes individual A decide that becoming a mercenary for U.S. imperialism is "ok" while individual B refuses the idea out of hand?

I suspect that it is the most reactionary elements of the working class that enter the U.S. military...people who like be told what to do; who really believe that Americans are "superior" to the "natives" of other countries; who look forward to the opportunity to use violence...especially against defenseless civilians. There are psychological factors at work also: those who become mercenaries are probably unsure of their "manhood" and feel that "combat" either "proves" that one is truly a man or "makes" one into a "real man".

In other words, it's certainly true that the ruling class attempts to "brainwash" young Americans into accepting and taking part in imperial violence...but it seems that those who "embrace" the "brainwashing" with enthusiasm are the ones who were already receptive before they were old enough to put on a uniform.

Thus, whenever the Iraqi resistance (or that in any other country) kills a U.S. (or British) soldier, they are actually removing one reactionary member of the working class...someone who, if they returned alive, would probably end up being a cop or a prison guard.

Therefore, it cheers me up whenever I read of new casualties in the occupation forces--one less bastard to have to deal with later on.

:cool:

[schumi]

Who is the victim, and who is the enemy?

ofcourse the civilians aren't the enemy! It's the US Millitary that is our and their enemy! Even other rightwing capitalist/americans are our enemy...that's why everey rightwing capitalist who has a gun in his hands has the right to be shot!

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Well they are not all "reactionary elements of the working class".

In order to get enough soldiers for a military campaign in Iraq the Bush administration attracted young immigrants with the promise of a passport if they would join them in their conquest. The first coalition troops who died in Iraq where actually Latino immigrants.

[LastingDamage]

Redstar is right, as are many of the points made by Marxist in Nebraska and repeated throughout the thread, lol. We should take comfort in the fact that the US and UK bastards in Iraq will fail! Out in 3 months? My leftist ass! Altho Islam has a bad rep and is responsible for almost as many atrocities as the US and other fascist dictatorships, its followers will drive out the Americans and keep their oil for themselves. Its democracy, 60% shi-ites mean a shi-ite country. The end result of this conflict will be just another Iran or Syria, little better than Saddams Iraq and a sure sign that war doesnt work when it doesnt have the people's interests in mind. The US troops deserve to go home in coffins, if they had the Iraqi people in mind and not oil and building contracts, they would've left long ago and not destroyed the infrastructure so they could make a shit-load fuckin rebuilding it!

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Comrade redstar2000,
It is a fair point that most in the military are on the reactionary side to begin with. They are easier to recruit. Remember, though, that many are seduced into the military with college scholarships and other spoils. I can recall a military promotion, maybe a year ago, where if you enlisted they would let you choose where you would be stationed. Sounds like a long, paid vacation, eh?

I am not sure about your point about violence seekers making up any sizable portion of the military. I have heard about people wanting to join the military to learn how to kill and put it into practice. I have also heard from military veterans, however, that such would-be serial murderers will not survive basic training. Apparently, these people are "Rambo"-types and do not take orders well. If one cannot take orders, the military has no interest in you.

[Monks Aflame]

In response to those who saying that the soldiers did not have to join the army in the first place... consider when all the immigrants came into America. Recruiters would be right there by the ships offering a roof over their heads, a place to sleep, and 3 meals a day. For someone who's been on a ship for the past few weeks and who has no possessions, that's a very good opportunity, no?

At my school, I have no army or military posters in my classrooms, being a Chinese-American in a magnet program. On the other hand, the 'mainstream' program, which is filled by an overwhelming majority by african-american kids, their classrooms are filled with these posters. Its brainwashing since high school. On TV, there are always these commercials for the navy or airforce or army, where you're jumping out of an airplane, or in the forest with fatigues and camo paints on your face... propaganda. It's brainwashing. This is the opportunity of a lifetime!

Also, consider, like the immigrant, the high school drop out with no money and no place to stay. Where do they go?

Sure, they should know what the military does... invade, kill... but its all justified and right, according to our Western media!!! This campaign of brainwashing is the enemy, everyone else falls victim.

[CienfuegosJnr]

Quote: from CCCP on 3:19 pm on July 21, 2003
Well they are not all "reactionary elements of the working class".

In order to get enough soldiers for a military campaign in Iraq the Bush administration attracted young immigrants with the promise of a passport if they would join them in their conquest. The first coalition troops who died in Iraq where actually Latino immigrants.




I didn't know Bush did that!
Iherd years ago they were thinking of makeing a U.S Foreign Legion, promising people who joined U.S Citizenship

Bring the Aussie troops back in body bags...... Then people will bee marching back on the streets again!

[liderDeFARC]

Quote: from Marxist in Nebraska on 2:57 am on July 16, 2003

......It is the corporations bribing the politicians to get huge defense contracts. Having so many tanks and helicopters sitting around makes the militarists twitchy to get out and use them. After all, they have to test their weapons in real combat to see if they really work....... The naive are rounded up into military bases and made callous in "basic training." The soldiers are forced to idle uselessly so that when given the "privilege" of combat, they will take it rather than continue on their stagnant way.


were you being sarcastic when you said that they had to test the weapons to see if they work? and who are you talking about when you say militarists (soldiers, and/or the high military leaders)? Because i dont think that the fact that the weapons and planes, and other crap are there is a reasonable excuse to use them. So, since the weapons are there we might as well use them. I mean if my mom was obsessed with knives and had a whole knife collection right there at home, and i got twitchy and wanted to use them, and i actually do go out and use them to kill innocent people, is that ok?

And what you said about the soldiers and their "privilege", to that i just shake my head.

but hopefully i misunderstood you....

I also agree with the people who said the civilians are the victims, and the us military the enemy. That's obvious.