scotland socialist is against che and fidel

[smoer]

here a conversation between me and a scottish "socialist"
sandanista:
horrible twisted old man he is(fidel)
ME:
eeuhm are you a dirty cappie?
S
no im a socialisy
S
fidels the cappie
ME
well then stop fucking with fidel you dont know him you heard that he is bad
S
kno he is bad, hes as bad as stalin, read some marx and lenin, then u'll find fidel isnt what u call a socialist, but a dirty cuban nationalist
ME
ow please!where are you from
S
scotland
S
and howcome u keep askin me that, i remember ur from belgium, y dont u remember where im form
ME
dunno
S
maybe its because ur a stupid little boy who thinks he can bring about revolution with a bb gun, maybe its because you are trying to rebel against ur parents because they're dirty cappies and ur a pure mad mental "communist", open ur ears mate the only way for revolution to occur is for the workin class to unite and smash the state, not some wankery with a rifle in some field, here's your first
S:
quote from marx "the workers revolution can only be the act of the united working class"
me
if workers take power the cappies get poor then the cappies will be the workers and a revolution starts again:quote from me
s:
no because the cappies will work the same as the workers, there are no bosses or money, there are no poor people in socialism
ME
thats what will happen when workers take power in the beginning its going good but then the workers wont more power and they smash capitalism and become capies
S:
the workers cant have more power when they have all the power
ME:
well they take huge taxes on the cappies workers get rich cappies get poor cappies become the workers and vica versa
s:
no becoz there are no taxes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
S
there is no government
S:
u really dont get it do u?
S:
oooh so you think it will work with politics whitout revolution??
s:
no the whole point of the matter is that the revolution is our politics, after the revolution there are no politics besides socialism, not because its enforced, but becoz no other politics are needed
S:
the only elections are the elections to see who will be ur boss for the week
ME:
and you think that will work?
S:
i dont think it will, i KNOW it will
ME:
ow so you did it if you are so sure about it
ME:
you dont know what a revolution is youve never been in a revolution
S:
the last revolution was about 100 years ago in russia
ME:
revolution in cuba 50 years ago bolivian revolution 40 years ago(still now)latin amerika revoltion (starting)
S:
no in cuba that was a nationalist coup
ME:
thats what you say thats not what i think so you say che is bazd 2
ME:
the people on che lives will love to hear that
S:
i think che was a shit hot marxist, but he was too interested in real politique
ME:
whats youre che lives name?
S:
sandanista
S:
ahaha ur gonna tell on me for not liking che, boo hiss, oh all those middle class wankers can go and fuck themselves theres only a handful of good comrades on that forum, and u can quote me if u lik
ME:im just going to paste this conversation there
S:
excellent
S:
make sure u put this point on there too all those middle class wankers can go and fuck themselves theres only a handful of good comrades on that forum
ME:
OK
S:
give me the link to the topic when it comes on
ME:
OK

well ezverybody what do you think of it??
S=sandanista
ME=smoer

[Sandanista]

I dont think much of it, lets have a proper debate eh?

[Kez]

i think Sandista is bang on, and your a romantic fool, fidel only announced he was communist when USA didnt aid him and USSR did

[Sandanista]

Cheers Kamo, heres a quote from smoer

ïî÷åìó ðàáîòàéòå êîãäà ìû ìîæåì ëåíèâî? why work when we can be lazy? ðàâíîñòü äëÿ êàæäîãî equality for everybody *says:
proper debate youre the one pissing on me
And I'm Nothin More Than A Line In Your Book says:
i kno i piss all over your arguments
ïî÷åìó ðàáîòàéòå êîãäà ìû ìîæåì ëåíèâî? why work when we can be lazy? ðàâíîñòü äëÿ êàæäîãî equality for everybody *says:
i hope scotland SWP is falling soon
And I'm Nothin More Than A Line In Your Book says:
whys that?
ïî÷åìó ðàáîòàéòå êîãäà ìû ìîæåì ëåíèâî? why work when we can be lazy? ðàâíîñòü äëÿ êàæäîãî equality for everybody *says:
beacause there is 1pissy fellow in it(you )

My reply to this is that all of the scottish swp comrades follow the same argument as me, the same as the majority of socialists around the world

Key: Russian Letters are Smoer
* * * *The line from a song is me

[smoer]

why can't you be a socialist if you like fidel

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from smoer on 11:06 am on July 14, 2003
why can't you be a socialist if you like fidel


If you don't like Fidel, you are not a Marxist, not a communist. But you can be a socialist and dislike him.

Kamo is being ridiculous. He knows why Fidel didn't announce Cuba would be socialist immediately; because it is right next the the greatest enemy of socialism, the U.S. Cuba had massive ties with the U.S., economically and politically, he could not severe those immediately, the revolution would have been destroyed economically and politically.

Che influenced Fidel into becoming a Marxist-Leninist. He remained with Fiel throughout the revolution. Following the first few years of the revolution they had to begin fighting the class struggle and anti-imperialist struggle so they could announce Cuba as socialist once its soveriegnty had been assured and revolutionary power consolidated.

Fidel was simply a patriotic Cuban, Che and others helped him realise that for any patriot must be a socialist because socialism is best for the people, and a patriot is that who wants the best for his people.

[Sandanista]

Chairman Mao is the wanker of the week, for a start its idiotic to be patriotic, fidel wasnt a socialist, as just like russia he had no qualms about placing nuclear missiles into the path of the american working class, u and the rest of ur kind give socialists a bad name, now fuck off and learn somethin worth while.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from Sandanista on 8:57 pm on July 14, 2003
Chairman Mao is the wanker of the week, for a start its idiotic to be patriotic, fidel wasnt a socialist, as just like russia he had no qualms about placing nuclear missiles into the path of the american working class, u and the rest of ur kind give socialists a bad name, now fuck off and learn somethin worth while.

Yes, sorry... Most people here at Che-Lives will testify, I'm not a very clear or deep thinker. Ok, i'll leave this site and go and read some books and do some research. I'm going to have to admit i'm not a socialist, you obviously are and its unfair to call myself one when I give all the others a bad name.

I'm not only the wanker of the week, but you have made me feel like the wanker of the year for being so ignorant.

[Sandanista]

Well done on the sarcasm, nice touch

[the SovieT]

Quote: from Sandanista on 8:57 pm on July 14, 2003
Chairman Mao is the wanker of the week, for a start its idiotic to be patriotic, fidel wasnt a socialist, as just like russia he had no qualms about placing nuclear missiles into the path of the american working class, u and the rest of ur kind give socialists a bad name, now fuck off and learn somethin worth while.


for starters, it isnt "idiotic" to be patriotic...
if i well remember it was PCP and the patriotic movements who made the 74 revolution, IF i well remember it were the patriotic movements of Cuba and some other south american countrys who drove the north americans back and fought the spanish colonialists as well..

IF i well remember it was the patrotic russian people who made the russian revolution..
the list goes on...

being patriotic isnt the opose of being internationalist..
in fact one can very well be patriotic AND internationaist (see e for example)
but then again this can be a litle to hard for you to figure out so i wount insist on this subject...

Fidel isnt a socialist? then again why is Cuba regarded as the bulwark of socialism and communism?
Why as he been endorsed by almost all if not all communist partys and revolutionary movements around the globe?
why is he a serious threat to the american international affairs?
why as he achieved so much in the social welfare, expecially in education (recently 900 YES 900 farmers were acepted in Universitys in cuba.. its 900 FUCKING FARMERS, A THING YOU DONT SEE IN THE WEST!)
then why as China, Vietnam, North Korea etc etc fallen to capitalism, or even revisionism when Cuba prossigues with the same policys for more than 40 years?

it may notbe a fine example of socialism, yes i agree..
yet the goals it achieved taking in consideration that its only some miles away form USA and it as been victim of uncessant terrorist attacks...



now Fidel and CCCP puting missiles in the american proletariat path? WTF?
can you eaborate you miserable ignoramus?
because, if i well remember, it was USA who created the atomic bomb, it was they who used it TWICE, it was USA who put nukes in turkey pointed at CCCP,
Cuba, in order to protect themselfs from the imperialist USA who had nukes pointed at Cuba all the time ..
and now it is CCCP who pointed nukes at the american proletariat?
whomy friend the american proletariat was being expoited, raped, ripped off and sold by the american system and now its CCCP who threaten them?
fucking hilarious my pseudo-comrade...
expecially more hilarious if you think about the bay of pigs and the tests USA made in Cuban soil, as the chemicals attacks executed by these in Cuba as well..
tell me you were joking about this and spare what is left of your dignity..

"u and the rest of ur kind give socialists a bad name"
explain...
because if you are refering to ISF crew, then i jsut have to say: GROW UP!
for your information, we in ISF are actually involved in politics, most of us actually involved in party activitys and in youth revolutionary groups..
I myself belong to JCP and PCP, and hold important funtions, as the CNES to wich i belong..
so think twice litle fucker maby whos giving a bad name to the movement here is you..



with this i leave you..

Fuck well..

[Just Joe]

Just to echo the sentiments of The SovieT and Chairman Mao in saying that it is not contradictory to be patriotic and internationalist.

I actually thought this quote from CM summed it up perfectly- for any patriot must be a socialist because socialism is best for the people, and a patriot is that who wants the best for his people.. I guess not for the narrow minded Sandanista who obviously doesn't see the situation behind the Cuba Missile Crisis and presumes it to be against the working class somehow.

I'd get your own historical reading in order first mate, before you start critisising a known knowledgable member of this forum in Chairman Mao.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Sandanista's inane comments have made me sorry to be born in Scotland. This boy is an absolute discrace to his screen name. Your knowledge of world historical politics is limited. You should really quite down son.

Ta mate, I got a good laugh from you.

The USS put missles in the path of the american working man...For fucks sake...this one almost made me fall over...This little shite thinks he can babble some useless drivel about "the protelariat" and be considered a good socialist. Chairman Mao here has forgotten more about socialist politics than the boy here will probably ever know. Have a pint and shut the fuck up Sandanista.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Sandanista's inane comments have made me sorry to be born in Scotland. This boy is an absolute discrace to his screen name. Your knowledge of world historical politics is limited. You should really quite down son.

Ta mate, I got a good laugh from you.

The USS put missles in the path of the american working man...For fucks sake...this one almost made me fall over...This little shite thinks he can babble some useless drivel about "the protelariat" and be considered a good socialist. Chairman Mao here has forgotten more about socialist politics than the boy here will probably ever know. Have a pint and shut the fuck up Sandanista.

[El Brujo]

Quote: from Sandanista on 4:57 am on July 15, 2003
Chairman Mao is the wanker of the week, for a start its idiotic to be patriotic, fidel wasnt a socialist, as just like russia he had no qualms about placing nuclear missiles into the path of the american working class, u and the rest of ur kind give socialists a bad name, now fuck off and learn somethin worth while.


You sir, are a fucking moron. First of all, what does the "American working class" have to do with the missiles placed in Cuba. Fidel and the USSR placed them there to defend Cuba from another US invasion and to even up the resistance as there were missiles in West Germany as well. Apparently, you support US imperialism over the liberation of the Cuban people.

Second of all, there is nothing wrong with being patriotic. When are you liberals going to get it through your thick skulls that there is an enormous difference between true patriotism/revolutionary nationalism and racism/fascism/imperialism + bourgeoisie-imperialist-"america is the best country in the world"-bush supporters. That is not nationalism, that is national chauvinism. A true nationalist wants whats best for his people while supporting others in their national self-determination (nationalist internationalism or proletarian internationalism). It is the practical thing to do as well because all nations will adapt to revolutions in a different way. I love my country and if you have a problem with that, GET FUCKED.

And im not even going to start about your claims that Fidel isn't a socialist. They make no sense, whatsoever.

(Edited by El Brujo at 3:50 pm on July 15, 2003)

[Sensitive]

Anyone that calls Fidel Castro a "cappie" is full of shit. Fidel isn't perfect, no one is claiming that, but without a doubt he is best leader on the face of this fucking planet.

[F1DG3T]

the best leader and how is that?

<chairman Mao>Kamo is being ridiculous. He knows why Fidel didn't announce Cuba would be socialist immediately; because it is right next the the greatest enemy of socialism, the U.S. Cuba had massive ties with the U.S., economically and politically, he could not severe those immediately, the revolution would have been destroyed economically and politically. </unquote>

so the best leader in the world is a pussy. backed up by the fact that Camp X-ray is in cuba just to keep the peace with america. Human rights anyone? Fidel is an old dying man he has no ability to fight like Che Did, he just wants power like every other Cappie.

and further evidence toward his greatness as a Commy or not is the fact he immediately sided with america after 911 maybe he didn't agree but its pathetic to heel like a dog on junior George Dubya's command.

At least North korea has the bottle to fire missiles at the US ships when they get to close.

You DO NOT SIDE WITH YOUR ENEMY EVEN IF ITS THE ONLY WAY SURVIVE.


El Brujo the fact you need to use insults in an argument would suggest you mentality isn't intact.

Your right there is nothing wrong with being patriotic thats why i don't mouth of about Cappies being wankers cus with out cappies i would have a shit life and i know it and i am thankful for the cappie country i live in with its security and its welfare and its education system.

[smoer]

thanks a lot everybody for the support against that guy who claimes hes a socialist.
F1DG3T???fidel a pussy what would you do ,you just have won the revolution there is no government and USA is against you?you would been a pussy fidel is not a pussy.you are so fucked up,are you the brother of sandanista?????I don't tell fidel is god but he has done a lot of good things!socially its extremly good to live in Cuba!so dont come up and fuck about that fidel sucks !so sandanista you hate Che 2 or what???

[Saint-Just]

I think the cold war would have certainly ended rather quickly had the USSR decided it was unethical to use nuclear missiles. The U.S. would have been considerably more confident having known they could engage the Soviets and use nuclear weapons to win the conflict.

This is to expound on the arguments others here, Just Joe and Soviet, have made.

Mao Zedong:

'Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be.'

'we Chinese people should get rid of great-power chauvinism resolutely, thoroughly, wholly and completely.'

Kim Jong Il:

'‘Someone who loves his country and nation respects the sovereignty of other countries and nations and fights strongly against any encroachment of it. One’s national duty and international duty to the revolution are in unity, and communists who are unfailingly loyal to the cause of popular independence, are true patriots and, at the same time, genuine internationalists.’

'‘Imperialists trample upon the independence of other countries and nations, and incite antagonism and conflicts among nations. The capitalist road is a road of exploitation and oppression, of national inequality and subjugation. This is clearly proved by the history of
oppressed nations which had been deprived of their national sovereignty and were forced to suffer at the hands of the imperialists’

'‘It is a national duty to the world revolution for the working-class party and people of each country to bring about a successful revolution in their own country. To bring about a successful revolution in their own country they must love their country and nation and maintain their independence. Without realising their country’s and nation’s independence, it is impossible for the masses to win their own independence. Only someone who loves his country and nation can fight devotedly for socialism, with the attitude of being the master of revolution in his own country.’

'DO NOT SIDE WITH YOUR ENEMY EVEN IF ITS THE ONLY WAY SURVIVE.'

Looking long-term, one can survive in the short-term so that they will never have to side with their enemy in the long-term. The case with Cuba is that without massive military strength, which is almost impossible with a nation of that size and productive capacity, to safeguard the lifestyle of the people at home they must compromise.

And Comrade RAF, the Sandanista's aligned themselves with Cuba and the USSR following the revolution in Nicaragua.

[F1DG3T]

<qoute.smoer>thanks a lot everybody for the support against that guy who claimes hes a socialist.
F1DG3T???fidel a pussy? what would you do, If you just have won the revolution, there is no government and USA is against you? You would been a pussy fidel is not a pussy.you are so fucked up,are you the brother of sandanista?????I don't tell fidel is god but he has done a lot of good things!socially its extremly good to live in Cuba!so dont come up and fuck about that fidel sucks !so sandanista you hate Che 2 or what???</unqoute>

Socially is that socialistically as in the subject matter you are claiming to be knowlegable or socially as in going to the pub if so live where i live its fucking social here too its not very social on this board though if you voice an opinion you get shouted down and sworn at by people who are making social and psycological profiles on people who post from the posts they make alone.

(apologies for the word socialistically i just wanted to draw the to apart i am not sure if it is the right word but you get what i mean)

no im not a brother of sandanista i don't even know him i how ever haven't judged him on his extreme comments he is entitled to a view as are you and as am I.

what would i do. i don't know but if i hated America like Che and fidel i wouldn't side with them Principles form the basis of political opinionstance if you go back on your principles how can you be trusted as a politician. basically to go go back on your principals is to undermine the integrity of your intentions as a politician.

i wouldn't trust a man who is scared of people to run my country. and before you say it i didn't vote tony blair into power.

As for coming up and fucking about that fidel sucks i said not a thing i just said he acted like a pussy great leader my arse

Socialism isn't about being powerful and greedy yet thats what every human will do given the oportunity its a flaw in our design, to be selfless would make us gods to be selfish is human so don't preach your social bulshit at me when you don't understand the entirity of what i stated or of who i am.



(Edited by F1DG3T at 12:40 pm on July 15, 2003)

[smoer]

you say now what you will do but thats what you think you will do !that fucking about fidel was meant for sandanista not for you.

[Sandanista]

hahahahahahahaahahahhahahahahaha ur all a bunch of idiots, for a start the bolshevik revolution was marred by social patriots like stalin, the idea of the russian revolution wasnt a national revolution, but an international one, which actually spread into germany amongst others, altought they failed.

also, whats in a name? Mao quoted mao zedong and the north korean guy, both very unsocialist, placng nukes at anyone is wrong, but for countries that purpose to be socialist placing them in the direction of any working class is a bigger travesty, u dont force socialism onto ppl, they bring it about themselves.

Che Guevara and Fidel Castro were no more than stalinist lapdogs of the united state capitalist republics of the "soviet" union.

And Comrade RAF were in scotland u from, ill talk the talk about politics and wipe the floor with u, i bet u think tommy sheridans a socialist too, weak fuck.

It saddens me that all of you consider urselfs to be part of the socialist movement, if all of u are what we have t offer then the revolution is nowhere near finished.

Get fidels dick out of ur mouths and talk sense.

I suppose ull all support national liberation movements that divide the international working class?

i mean, really what is the difference between the english working class and the scottish working class, erm accents?

[smoer]

you wont a proper discussion??youre text is full of fuck shit ass and dick!!

[Sandanista]

yeah id like on, but the rest of the cappies on denigrated their speech to such a level that it was hard for me to use my superior intellectual skill to bring it back up.

Ok this comes from the SPGB, not an organisation id consider joinin but well they make a good point
1. Solving the Reform or Revolution dilemma, by declaring that a socialist party should not advocate reforms of capitalism and by recognising that parliament can be used for revolutionary ends.

2. Realisation that Socialsim will be a world-wide system of production and distribution. Socialism cannot be established in one country.

3. Recognition that there is no longer any need for a "transition period" between capitalism and Socialism. Marx and Engels were not dogmatists and neither are we. They recognised that the general principles of the COMMUNIST MANIFESTO were correct but the practical application of these principles depended on the historical conditions at the time. We do not live in 1848 when Marx and Engels sketched out some revolutionary measures at the end of Section II of the MANIFESTO nor, in 1875, when Marx suggested in THE CRITIQUE OF THE GOTHA PROGRAMME, that Socialism might need to begin with a voucher system. Socialism is technically possible now and can be established with free access under democratic control when a majority of workers want it.

4. Rejection of any further progressive role for nationalism after capitalism became the dominant world system towards the end of the 19th century. Industrialisation under national state capitalism is neither necessary nor economically progressive.

5. For the same reason, rejection of the idea of "progressive wars". Socialists oppose all wars on the grounds of class, refusing to take sides in the squabble between capitalists over raw resources, strategic points of influence and trade routes.

6. Exposure of leadership as a capitalist political principle, a feature of the revolutions that brought them to power and utterly alien to the socialist revolution. The socialist revolution necessarily involves the active and conscious participation of the great majority of workers so that there is no useful role for leadership.

7. Advocating and practising that a socialist party, with no leaders and no secret meetings, thus foreshadowing the society it seeks to establish.

8. Recognition that capitalism will not collapse on its own accord, but will continue from crisis to crisis until workers consciously organise to abolish it.

9. Opposing as unscientific and politically unsound, all religions of the world.

10. That apathy, disinterestedness and lack of participation in the affairs of the Party opens it up to entryism, factionism, unsound theories, disputes and division.

[El Brujo]

"El Brujo the fact you need to use insults in an argument would suggest you mentality isn't intact."

People who use insults, get insults from me.

"Your right there is nothing wrong with being patriotic thats why i don't mouth of about Cappies being wankers cus with out cappies i would have a shit life and i know it and i am thankful for the cappie country i live in with its security and its welfare and its education system."

That sarcastic comment suggests that your mentality isn't intact. Did you bother to read my post? I don't praise "cappies" or any "cappie country" I praise my people and their struggle for national self-determination against the cappies. And Im not an American, if that's what you're getting at.

"Che Guevara and Fidel Castro were no more than stalinist lapdogs of the united state capitalist republics of the "soviet" union."

Again with the "Stalinism". Please explain what it is and how it is less Marxist than "non-Stalinism". Everyone that has been asked this up to now has not been able to respond properly. You're idealistic, trans-nationalist beliefs don't impress me, pal.

[Sandanista]

Socialism to be socialism needs the eventual smashing of the state, whereas stalinism is the retainment of the state as the major benefactor of the accumulation of capital, basically maoism is the same except maoism was based on agriculture and stalinism was based on industry. Its not socialism but state capitalism.

Please don't call me, a marxist, idealistic when it is quite clear im very materialist.

[Som]

Second of all, there is nothing wrong with being patriotic. When are you liberals going to get it through your thick skulls that there is an enormous difference between true patriotism/revolutionary nationalism and racism/fascism/imperialism + bourgeoisie-imperialist-"america is the best country in the world"-bush supporters.

Well, I'd assume when it stops being used a blind rallying cry for the braindead.

Herd those traitors and counter-revolutionary pigdogs up, and remember, questioning orders is for the unpatriotic.

The enormous difference is simply who tells you what to think.

So well, never.


When it comes down to it, the claim of fidel not being a socialist isn't a matter of who he pointed his guns at and whos ass he tryed to weasel into, but how its run and by who. Cuba is run like a corporation, with Castro as the CEO and the communist party as the shareholders, its a clear and reasonable complaint.

Trying to portray vaguely democratic structures of the cuban government as evidence that the leading oligarchy is the true representation of the people as a whole is about as valid as calling american corporations worker run because they happen to toss a few stocks to the employees once in awhile.

It really depends on you're definition of socialism whether or not Cuba is socialist today. If you define it as just collective or state ownership, then yes its socialist, if you define it as democratic ownership, thats a bit more troubling.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Sandanista,
What exactly is a "social patriot" and why do you consider Stalin to be one of them?


Get fidels dick out of ur mouths and talk sense.
This comment is just offensive. That is just a shameful way to speak, especially for someone claiming to adhere to progressive politics.


I suppose ull all support national liberation movements that divide the international working class?
What is necessarily divisive about national liberation?

On the matter of the USSR building nuclear weapons and pointing them at the USA, I wonder how you would defend a nation threatened by an aggressive empire like the USA. Consider the way that the US threw its weight around in the world (manipulating elections with the CIA, imposing fascist dictators) even before the collapse of the USSR. Consider that American militarists had no objection to dropping the bomb on Japan in World War II.

If the Soviet Bloc had not had a nuclear arsenal of its own, the US would most likely have nuked them into oblivion. Berate the USSR all you like, but if the US had used the bomb, millions of Russian (and Ukranian, Yugoslav, Pole, etc.) workers would have been killed. If you put the welfare of the proletariat as high a priority as you say, then you must appreciate that the Soviet deterrant did not allow a nuclear war to break out.

There was one other topic I wanted to respond to on this forum. There is a debate over whether patriotism is merely a synonym for nationalism, or national chauvinism if you prefer. I do not believe so. It is true that right-wing forces here in the US have moved to coopt the word and make their imperialism synonymous with the virtuous, idealistic (or so the history books say) "founding fathers." Personally, I think many of the most influencial "FFs" had ambitions for their own empire and were plainly hypocritical. In that way, I agree with George Bush. He considers his imperialism and militarism as virtuous as the framers of the Constitution. And he is right... he just gives the "FFs" too much credit.

But no, patriotism is about liberation from despotic empires (to which you can argue whether the American colonists were patriots at all--many of the "great American patriot" types were only out to take over Britain's racket in North America).

Nationalism as it is practiced in the First World, or national chauvinism as I saw it referred to earlier, is about desensitizing and demeaning the people of the Second and Third Worlds. This is done to keep the consciences of the "patriotic" countrymen and women clear, and to maintain their consent to the conquest.

So, as I define them, patriotism and First World nationalism/national chauvinism are two completely different words that are wrongly considered interchangeable.

[the SovieT]

Sandinista if you come here to insult Che you might as well fuck off...

this is a "Internationalist Forum for Che Admirers"

and you are proving to be a mix of trotskist separatist with a pure idiot...

[El Brujo]

[b]"Socialism to be socialism needs the eventual smashing of the state, whereas stalinism is the retainment of the state as the major benefactor of the accumulation of capital, basically maoism is the same except maoism was based on agriculture and stalinism was based on industry. Its not socialism but state capitalism."

Wrong buddy. "Stalinism" is true Marxist/Leninism. A nationalist-internationalist philosophy in which socialist states develop to eventually create a communist world, and then, possibly, the state could be abolished (only if people are enlightened enouph). It is very foolish to believe that a revolution can happen at the same time, under the same conditions, all over the world. While Trotskyism (which you seem to profess) may be "socialism", it is most-definitely not Marxism, it is ultra-left, Pol Potist fallacies which will bring about nothing but chaos.

American capitalism cannot stand on its own so it has to repress the developing world. The first step to eliminating capitalism is eliminating imperialism. If you consider it "capitalist" to fight for national self-sufficiency against western bourgeoisie, then you are no Marxist, and most definitely not a materialist. You don't recognize the existance of the labor aristocracy in the first place (which is what makes up you're beloved "American working class" ).

[Kez]

Sandista has proven to be the only true socialist on this thread, and has been able to show this by arguing with 5-7 dimwit "socialists" ranging from liberal loving to maoist narodnik, despite the fact i believe the SWP which he is a member of is no good, the intelligence and theory in this guy is truly superior to any of the shit thats been put on this thread

If fidel is socialist then y is there an apartheid within Cuba for tourists and its citizens? this is not what the workers revolted for.

This stalinist bullshit is a disgrace, thankfully there are no serious parties out there with that bollox with them that have more than 4 members in them

If you think you can piss sandista off ur wasting ur time, as he unlike shitniks from here doesnt waste his time on the forum, and instead actually applies his theory and can see what happens in the real world

finally, stop making bollox up of your own, and if u do, think it thru plz...

[Just Joe]

I wonder if the almighty Socialist revolutionary Sandanista realises he has a link to the Scottish Socialist Party in his profile. You know, the party that puts National Liberation at the forefront of its policies?

[smoer]

sandanista says he is banded thanks to me!he says i'm a little stalinist fuck!damn its suckqs that he is banded.I just wonted that he wouldnt fuck with fidel and che

[ComradeJunichi]

soshhalizm iz knot stAlinizm kuz stalnzm wuz teh evil bee traying of teh poletariot lenin wuz juzt anoter badder guyz cuz he is teh crazee moder fookar and shay gayvaray iz da fakez soshalizt cuz he devidedz teh enternashonal poletariot and dat fidel moder fookre iz da dicktater guyz and he takez awayz teh pahwor frum teh reel peepull and dey ar ohpresseded y u suhport himz i dunn knoez but u r gay and u rillee suckz!! REHVUHLOOSHUN!!!

kamoz true soshalizt 2 kuz hez 4 rilleez nd ptuz it en da rill werld we r da rillz soshalizt moder fookers!

we r suh smartz becuz we typez lyk diz and yoo r suh ghey kuz yoo dun knoez abuouts soshalizm

rehvuhlooshun all at da same tym becuz datz da onlee wayee 2 go! ecksakt saym tym or els itz not rill rehvuhlooshun!!!

die fidel die che die stalin die mao die kim die lenin die marx die engels die hoxha die die die die

all wayz lib trohtzkee nd enterznashunohl soshalitzsm!!!

[smoer]

talk normal and fidel rules not sucks

[Kez]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 11:04 pm on July 15, 2003

If fidel is socialist then y is there an apartheid within Cuba for tourists and its citizens?

smoer, im waiting for you to answer me this...

[Saint-Just]

edit: double post

(Edited by Chairman Mao at 12:20 am on July 17, 2003)

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 11:24 pm on July 16, 2003

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 11:04 pm on July 15, 2003

If fidel is socialist then y is there an apartheid within Cuba for tourists and its citizens?

smoer, im waiting for you to answer me this...

The primary aim of allowing tourists is the generation of foreign capital to be used for the benefit of the entirity of Cuban society.

If they put tourists in the conditions of ordinary Cubans Cubans few people would be interested in going. Ultimately the living standards of Cubans will rise through the prosperity generated by tourism. Therefore, oneday, yes Cuban may life the same lifestyle as the tourists do. But that fact is that the tourists who go there are far richer than ordinary Cubans.

Did you ever notice one of your beloved Sandinista's most pleasant comments 'Id love to go an punch cassius and mao the stalinist bastards they are, the scum of the earth’

[El Brujo]

Quote: from smoer on 5:41 am on July 17, 2003
talk normal and fidel rules not sucks


He was mocking the kiddies.

Hillarious and very true, Joon. :biggrin:

[Sandanista]

Cheers kamo, like myself, is one of the only comrades who applies practical theory on this forum.

I like some of the stuff u said som, quite intelligent.

A social patriot is like a social democrat, except that he was not democratic, basically it means he was a national socialist, like hitler.

Junichi, ur a fuckin idiot. grow up.

A good point Joe, the reason y im a member of the ssp is that in scotland the swp is a platform within the SSP, however as kamo said, he thinks the SWP are no good, and i have been reviewing my position within this organisation.

[ComradeJunichi]

Quote: from Sandanista on 1:00 am on July 17, 2003
Junichi, ur a fuckin idiot. grow up.


I'm a fucking idiot?


Quote: from Sandanista on 8:57 pm on July 14, 2003
Chairman Mao is the wanker of the week, for a start its idiotic to be patriotic, fidel wasnt a socialist, as just like russia he had no qualms about placing nuclear missiles into the path of the american working class, u and the rest of ur kind give socialists a bad name, now fuck off and learn somethin worth while.



Quote: from Sandanista on 8:22 pm on July 15, 2003
hahahahahahahaahahahhahahahahaha ur all a bunch of idiots, for a start the bolshevik revolution was marred by social patriots like stalin, the idea of the russian revolution wasnt a national revolution, but an international one, which actually spread into germany amongst others, altought they failed.

also, whats in a name? Mao quoted mao zedong and the north korean guy, both very unsocialist, placng nukes at anyone is wrong, but for countries that purpose to be socialist placing them in the direction of any working class is a bigger travesty, u dont force socialism onto ppl, they bring it about themselves.

Che Guevara and Fidel Castro were no more than stalinist lapdogs of the united state capitalist republics of the "soviet" union.

And Comrade RAF were in scotland u from, ill talk the talk about politics and wipe the floor with u, i bet u think tommy sheridans a socialist too, weak fuck.

It saddens me that all of you consider urselfs to be part of the socialist movement, if all of u are what we have t offer then the revolution is nowhere near finished.

Get fidels dick out of ur mouths and talk sense.

I suppose ull all support national liberation movements that divide the international working class?

i mean, really what is the difference between the english working class and the scottish working class, erm accents?



I am the idiot? Your continuous flames against "fake-socialists" who know how to type with correct spelling and grammar are inane and ridiculous.

Your idea of "International Revolution" being one at the exact same time like a ticking socialist time bomb is also ridiculous.

You lack the brain to understand working within ones country for a future goal for all the countries. Anything "nationalistic" is evil and anti-communism. You lack the ability to think for later and act for now.


Quote: from Sandanista on 1:00 am on July 17, 2003
A social patriot is like a social democrat, except that he was not democratic, basically it means he was a national socialist, like hitler.


Your sense of logic is completely ridiculous, again you lack open-mindedness. Your logic is flawed being that is based on biased opinion. Linking him to Hitler is ridiculous, especially by canceling out a few words from an ideology label that you have put upon him.

Your disrespect for many socialist revolutionaries is disgusting. How dare you say I should grow up. Perhaps you should "take your own dick out of your mouth and make sense".

(Edited by ComradeJunichi at 2:56 am on July 17, 2003)

God, this outdated form of Ikonboard is so god damn hard to use.

(Edited by ComradeJunichi at 2:57 am on July 17, 2003)

[F1DG3T]

smoer is a small boy pathetic and insulting to anymans inteligence why swear about someone else opinions

i would say to you smoer that che was a moron just to see how intelligent you are

Smoer why haven't you answered my post about fidel smoer whats wrong?

insulting kiddies i thinnk the kiddies are insulting themselves aren't they

Cuba is a joke in socialism and communism infact communism is a joke lovely theory shite in practice i accept that which is hy i don't class fidel as a great leader

[smoer]

tjere are tourists in cuba to bring money in the cuban economy.
and F1DG3T wy are you and you'e other fucking cappies like sandanista here??you hate fidel you say che is a moron???this is the che lives forum dont like che just leave it then and stop asking when i will replay .i'm not online allday you know.so will please all the fake commies and socialists who adore stalin and hate che and fidel please fuck off!

[Cassius Clay]

What a thread.

Sandanista can you actually go without swearing, insulting and using useless rhectoric in any thread? I wonder if you've got beaten up yet since with your kind of attidude someone's going to do it soon enough.

Actually I'm of the opinion that Fidel and Cuba are far from the perfect 'Communists' that some like to portray. But it's no surprise that the useless Trots don't come up with any significant facts or evidence to base their criticisms of Cuba and Fidel on.

Do you crticise Fidel for allowing Cuba to become so dependent on the USSR that it faced bankcruptcy in 1991? No you criticise Fidel for being a 'evil Stalinist'. Do you criticse Fidel for not Industrialising Cuba and instead becoming a sugar based economy depedent on Soviet Imperialism and the world economy? No you say 'he's a Cappie bastard'. Do you criticise Fidel for praising Deng Xia Ping and the Pope? No you call him 'Power hungry'.

Kudos to research and scientific anayalsis.

Despite all his faults Castro was right in placing Nuclear Weapons in Cuba to defend against Imperialism, he was right to say he would retailate if he needed to. Cuba has aided revolutions in Angola, played a primary role in defeating Aparthied, survived four decades of the most criminall Imperialists in the world and aided your Sandinistas in their revolution. Unlike you Trots he aint no lackey of Capitalism. And when you acheive 5% of what Cuba has then you can talk, but not while your acting like a little Fascist thug (and everyone I speak to be there from whatever group knows that's what you SWP kids are).

Cuba has many faults, as Kamo points out it's becoming a two-based economy/society. One with dollars and Euro's the other with Peso's. I wouldn't go so far to call Cuba a Titoite society, it's stuck in Brezheveinite like stagnation and decay. It has serious problems with it's democracy, it could be far more democratic with criticism going from bottom to top. Never the less it's far more democratic and progressive than any other third world nation, and alot of western one's for that matter. Given it's ciricumstances that it incredible and what Cuba and Fidel have done is remarkable.

Don't like it go and visit Argentina or the Phillipines, then your see what 'Capitalism' is. But as Vladimir Lenin pointed out 'Trotskyites decieve the workers'. 85 years later and he's still right.

[smoer]

an SP try's to rule a society socialistic but a party isnt the working class so wy are the SP's shitting here about socialism they are in politics they are
NOT THE WORKING CLASS.
be an organisation with only workers not with some lawyers or something in it.I know you only can make acountry socio(unless revolution or ...)but all those party's and ministers earn to much.unless you'r a association without profit.cassius clay ,you are 101% right sandanista doenst know fidel or che o wait yes he HEARD of them in the UNited kingdom(imperialismtic and puwer hunger coutnry nummber 2!)

[F1DG3T]

lol smoer

i don't adore starlin

i am a socialist not a commie nor a cappie

if you read my post i said i would like to say Che is a moron just to see if you could argue a. without swearing b. with intelligent comments and evidence to backup arguments. i don't think hes a moron i respect che so much you wouldn't believe. infact you don't so not a problem

smoer answer my thread please actually answer it i want to know what you think in real terms with out you jumped up attitude

smoer do you make any sense in any of your threads.


imperialistic and power hungry country number 2is it

least its not an idealistic unsuccesful pile o shite that sits scared of nations very racist aren't you any other facist attitudes you have smoer.

erm trotsky wasn't particularly successful either.

Cassius Respect very modest post

i agree fidel was right to arm with nukes to prevent an attack by imperialism but is he right to allow camp x-ray in cuba its a violation of all human rights imposed by the very imperialists he armed with nukes to protect himself from. Was he right to condem the demolition of a cappie corperate structure which he and any other commiesocialist would have not been bothered at all about infact it was a victory for the anti cappie in any form except that is for the tragic level of deaths caused

please note i am questioning the integrity of fidels actions i am not by anymeans condoning the events of 911

it is a simple question how can someone whos integrity be questioned be such supposed great leader

[smoer]

is that youre question or is that just a rethorical question?

[smoer]

cuba has got very good education and hospitalisation ,but the people cant leave the farms because thanks to the blockades of USA and EU they are to poor.so dont judge fidel that he hates his people .He loves his people.

[Kez]

Smoer, whats the point of the thread?

it is obvious you dont know how to argue with people with real theory and you come out with bullshit slogans.
That is why you have come out to smear the name of comrade Sandista.

The only people on this thread who have applied real theory are Sandista and Cassius (Cass id like to know where u got that "trots deceive workers" quote from, the source that is)

Why doesnt Fidel have real democracy? He should allow the bastard capitalist parties in a deemocratic parliament and then slate the motherfuckers with theory, THEN he will be truly loved by the workers, and if not then he shouldnt be there.

With democracy he can be held accountable, and real communists from the party can actually lead the country to a communist state.

With democracy the party members wouldnt get to power on patronage values they would get by kissing catros arse, but by the demand of the people!

Cuba is a deformed workers state, and should be defended against capitalism as it is much more progressive than capitalism, however we must make it a REAL communist state and not a stalinist caricature of it.

[F1DG3T]

becuase of american blockades and stuff half a million iraqi's have died that doesn't make me want to respect sadam hussien just becuase the country is oppressed by others doesn't make the leader better

TavareeshKamo i can't argue with that i didn't intend on arguing at all i just can't stand people who jump down someones throat for thinking differently

sandanista fairplay obviously we are both "cappies" smoer knows so much about us. cough cough my arse like everyone else doesn't survive by capitalist means. anyone here have a bank acount?

you would have to be in exile to be a true anticapitalist

[smoer]

ow so now youre a cappie if you know 3 things about USA well then is everybody a cappie ,bunch of pro stalinist ant fidel loozers

[ComradeJunichi]

I'm not taking the time to read F1DG3T, smoers or anyone elses posts that I can't even read.

So every socialist nation present in this world is a 'deformed workers state'. "Castro should bring in capitalist parties to become a true communist", that's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. You and your foolish ideas of "democracy" being for the people, do you realize what opening up Cuba will do to it's politics? You label it a "deformed workers state", but from what I've been reading you have a strong desire to make it into a "deformed workers state".

Cuba is as democratic as it gets, stop dreaming about a "perfect communist paradise". That isn't going to happen, especially with the US 90 miles above and its peak of its power.

[Sandanista]

Aren't we the pessimistic type junichi?

No one can beat me up, anyone who's ever tried failed...miserably, to be honest tho, there are too many people with the same opinions as me to warrant a beat down.

Yeah i only wound up smoer and everyone else about fidel coz they all treat him like a god, cuba is not socialist its even spiralling away from a deformed workers state. and whats with the bullshite about cuba bein 90 miles away therefore find it hard to be "socialist" and subvert american imperialism, wtf?

Canada is right next to it and it does it own thing, and the last time i heard the americans hate the canadian more than the cubanos.

Cuba, in the 60's deserved defense from american imperialists, but cuba bein an imperiliast nation itself doest deserve the reverence it gets.

[Cassius Clay]

''but cuba bein an imperiliast nation itself doest deserve the reverence it gets.''

I don't know about 'Wanker of the Week' award but this certainly deserves a Nobel Prize.

Kamo here's what Lenin said.

''And in the 1911 article entitled “From the Camp of the Stolypin Labour Party” Lenin revisits this issue by saying,
“Hence it is clear that Trotsky and the ‘Trotskyites and conciliators’ like him are *more pernicious than any liquidators*; the convinced liquidators state their views bluntly, and it is easy for the workers to detect where they are wrong, whereas the *Trotskys deceive the workers*, *cover up the evil*, and make it impossible to expose the evil and to remedy it. *Whoever supports Trotsky’s puny group supports a policy of lying and of deceiving the workers*, a policy of shielding the liquidators. Full freedom of action for Potresov and Co. in Russia, and the shielding of their deeds by ‘revolutionary’ phrase-mongering abroad--there you have the essence of the policy of ‘Trotskyism’.”

[F1DG3T]

smoer do you actually read the post

what context did you read "sandanista fairplay obviously we are both "cappies" smoer knows so much about us. cough cough my arse like everyone else doesn't survive by capitalist means. anyone here have a bank acount? " cus i think you should read it again smoer ever heard of humour or is that banned on this socalled socialist website

jerk

[smoer]

dunno what you meanF1DG3T, dont wonna bann the humor eather .sorry for that ,i'm not a cappie.i know this about america because i watch the news.

[rAW DEaL bILL]

FUCK FIDEL MAN! ARE YOU FUCKIGN INSANE??? jesus christ! i ad way more respect for communists to think theyd support someone like fidel castro! shit! he wasnt even communist in the begining. hes an all time OPURTUNIST. he hated america and the USSR was constantly on the brink or war with america and willing to fund communist countries. thats the ONLY reason he became communist. im sure ches encouragement helped, but that alone wouldnt have changed fidels mind. not only that but hes a fuckign EVIL ASS dictator! i didnt think u guys were supportive of ANY dictators, let alone dictators that EXECUTE anyone who disagrees with him! THATS some WONDERFUL freedom isnt it? what a great great man. he kills people and is only communist cuz america hates communism! he MUST be cool right! ANY communist dictator is cool right guys??? fuckin make me sick man. fuck.
peace.

[rAW DEaL bILL]

and cassius, dont even fuckin get me started on lenin. far as im conserned id rather have george bush for christ sake. anythign but lenin. anything but a fucking poseur communist, claiming state run capitalism as communism, and totaly fuckign destrying all the goals of the bolchevicks.

[Bianconero]

"anythign but lenin. anything but a fucking poseur communist, claiming state run capitalism as communism, and totaly fuckign destrying all the goals of the bolchevicks."

How exactly did Lenin 'destroy' all Bolshevik - goals? Lenin was the head of the movement, he was the one who actually stands for Bolshevik - ideas. So why would he 'destroy' his own ideas?

[rAW DEaL bILL]

quote from reds: (its not exact but hatever) "if bolshevism is where the workers own the factories and the means of production, if bolshevism gives the workers the fruits of there labour and if bolshevism puts a stop to exploitation, then russia is a country with no bolshevism!" -emma goldman. it was somethign like that. anyway, once lenin came into power he destroyed the whole thing. he called state run capitalism communism. in his economic system the state took the place of the exploiters the masters the benificiaries of the workers labour, which, in my opinion, is JUST as bad IF NOT WORSE than plain old capitalism.

[ComradeJunichi]

Quote: from rAW DEaL bILL on 5:28 pm on July 18, 2003
FUCK FIDEL MAN! ARE YOU FUCKIGN INSANE??? jesus christ! i ad way more respect for communists to think theyd support someone like fidel castro! shit! he wasnt even communist in the begining. hes an all time OPURTUNIST. he hated america and the USSR was constantly on the brink or war with america and willing to fund communist countries. thats the ONLY reason he became communist. im sure ches encouragement helped, but that alone wouldnt have changed fidels mind. not only that but hes a fuckign EVIL ASS dictator! i didnt think u guys were supportive of ANY dictators, let alone dictators that EXECUTE anyone who disagrees with him! THATS some WONDERFUL freedom isnt it? what a great great man. he kills people and is only communist cuz america hates communism! he MUST be cool right! ANY communist dictator is cool right guys??? fuckin make me sick man. fuck.
peace.



Quote: from rAW DEaL bILL on 5:33 pm on July 18, 2003
and cassius, dont even fuckin get me started on lenin. far as im conserned id rather have george bush for christ sake. anythign but lenin. anything but a fucking poseur communist, claiming state run capitalism as communism, and totaly fuckign destrying all the goals of the bolchevicks.



Quote: from rAW DEaL bILL on 7:04 pm on July 18, 2003
quote from reds: (its not exact but hatever) "if bolshevism is where the workers own the factories and the means of production, if bolshevism gives the workers the fruits of there labour and if bolshevism puts a stop to exploitation, then russia is a country with no bolshevism!" -emma goldman. it was somethign like that. anyway, once lenin came into power he destroyed the whole thing. he called state run capitalism communism. in his economic system the state took the place of the exploiters the masters the benificiaries of the workers labour, which, in my opinion, is JUST as bad IF NOT WORSE than plain old capitalism.

Rofl.

The newcomers keep getting worse everyday, huh?

Lenin was the worst Bolshevik ever!!! He betrayed all the goals of the Bolsheviks!!! Lenin didn't know anything about Bolshevism!!!

You seem to have a strong hate for capitalism, but you would prefer George Bush than Vladimir Ilyich Lenin himself. Shows that you are just a capitalist under the cover of a the communist title. "fuckin make me sick man. fuck."

Tell us, please, explain how the RSFSR was "state capitalist"?

This one is the all time best quote, it should be put on the main page of Che-Lives:

FUCK FIDEL MAN! ARE YOU FUCKIGN INSANE??? jesus christ! i ad way more respect for communists to think theyd support someone like fidel castro! shit! he wasnt even communist in the begining. hes an all time OPURTUNIST. he hated america and the USSR was constantly on the brink or war with america and willing to fund communist countries. thats the ONLY reason he became communist. im sure ches encouragement helped, but that alone wouldnt have changed fidels mind. not only that but hes a fuckign EVIL ASS dictator! i didnt think u guys were supportive of ANY dictators, let alone dictators that EXECUTE anyone who disagrees with him! THATS some WONDERFUL freedom isnt it? what a great great man. he kills people and is only communist cuz america hates communism! he MUST be cool right! ANY communist dictator is cool right guys??? fuckin make me sick man. fuck.
peace.

FUCK FIDEL MAN! ARE YOU FUCKIGN INSANE??? jesus christ! i ad way more respect for communists to think theyd support someone like fidel castro!

Tell me, has there ever been a communist you've had respect for? There has not been one nation, one movement, one revolutionary you have respect for. How do you consider yourself a communist?

shit! he wasnt even communist in the begining. hes an all time OPURTUNIST. he hated america and the USSR was constantly on the brink or war with america and willing to fund communist countries. thats the ONLY reason he became communist.

Sorry to bust your bubble but Castro was not an opportunist. The only reason he 'became a communist'? I think you should seriously shut your mouth, sit down, and read about the Cuban Revolution.

im sure ches encouragement helped, but that alone wouldnt have changed fidels mind.

Do you know what actually happened when Che and Fidel talked all night together?

not only that but hes a fuckign EVIL ASS dictator! i didnt think u guys were supportive of ANY dictators, let alone dictators that EXECUTE anyone who disagrees with him!

"Evil Ass dictator", rofl. This just keeps getting better and better. Did you know Castro is the son of Lucifer? LOL.

So, when has Castro "EXECUTED" anyone who disagreed with him?

THATS some WONDERFUL freedom isnt it? what a great great man. he kills people and is only communist cuz america hates communism!

First of all, you need to seriously read some writing. Second, you need to actually understand the Cuban Revolution and Cuba today. Not Cuba in the eyes of the Cubans in Miami and America.

he MUST be cool right! ANY communist dictator is cool right guys???

Cool? What the fuck does cool have to do with anything? Do you think I respect socialist revolutionaries because they're simply cool?

Is Comandante Che "cool" to you? Did you know the executions he has commited? Do you know how brutal Che was himself?

Life isn't dandy and full of sunflowers, this is the real world. Grow up, sometimes extreme measures have to be taken.

In the words of Mao, Revolution isn't a dinner party.

[Sandanista]

raw deal, you'll actually find that it was stalin who betrayed the workers in russia, not lenin.

[smoer]

well sandanista now you're right.you maybe hate fidel and che but i think so 2 that stalin was the ruiner and not lenin.

[kylie]

, for a start the bolshevik revolution was marred by social patriots like stalin,
Actually, Lenin was much more considerate of any patriotic feelings people may have than Stalin. I cannot remember the details, but i know sometime in i think 1919 the two came into disagreement, Stalin wanting all countries that experienced revolution all be incorperated into Russia, Lenin on the otherhand accepting nationalism as a problem, and proposing a union of soviet states.

[Saint-Just]

'! he wasnt even communist in the begining. hes an all time OPURTUNIST. he hated america and the USSR was constantly on the brink or war with america and willing to fund communist countries. thats the ONLY reason he became communist. im sure ches encouragement helped, but that alone wouldnt have changed fidels mind.'

If anything factual can be deduced from your statement, it would suggest this. That Fidel became a communist because he was an anti-imperialist; since imperialism is the sharpest weapon the capitalists have for economic exploitation of the workers, I think it is an excellent reason to become a communist because we are after all primarily concerned with capitalism's expropriation of the labour of workers.

He recognised that communism is what would help the Cuban people most as Che, in the same way, learnt to be a communist through the problems he saw in South America and what he saw as the solution to them - communism.

Furthermore, I too am a communist, and I should think many people here are the same, because they think it is the cure for the ills of capitalist society.

'i didnt think u guys were supportive of ANY dictators'

You have the same interpretation of communist leaders as the bourgeoisie. They are indeed dictators, but evil is not inherent in dictatorship. Fidel is a dictator who uses the power of socialism. Without being a dictator he will not be utilising this power, that has revived the fortunes of Cuba and societies across the globe, to its greatest effect.

The term dictator becomes irrelevant with the crumbling of capitalism. Once there are no class interests and such vieing for power there is no opposition to socialism and thus it is impossible to suspect that socialism would ever have anything less than absolute power.

Do we not seek to destroy these competing class interests and the condittion that fostered them?

If we do, we do nothing more than shove oxygen into the mouth of capitalism. Capitalism is not interested in co-operating with socialism, it is opposed to it and will not disappear without a fight.

'i ad way more respect for communists to think theyd support someone like fidel castro'

Priceless.

I know... I used to have respect for capitalists until they starting supporting people like George Bush.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 11:04 pm on July 15, 2003
Sandista has proven to be the only true socialist on this thread, and has been able to show this by arguing with 5-7 dimwit "socialists" ranging from liberal loving to maoist narodnik, despite the fact i believe the SWP which he is a member of is no good, the intelligence and theory in this guy is truly superior to any of the shit thats been put on this thread

If fidel is socialist then y is there an apartheid within Cuba for tourists and its citizens? this is not what the workers revolted for.

This stalinist bullshit is a disgrace, thankfully there are no serious parties out there with that bollox with them that have more than 4 members in them

If you think you can piss sandista off ur wasting ur time, as he unlike shitniks from here doesnt waste his time on the forum, and instead actually applies his theory and can see what happens in the real world

finally, stop making bollox up of your own, and if u do, think it thru plz...




All this from a 14 year old kiddie-commie. Ha, got a laugh outta this one.

Sandanist I am from Aberdeen. Want to debate with me? Fire away boy.

Comrade Mao, I know who the Sandanista's aligned themselves with, that's what my original post was pointing out to this twat sandanista. It makes me angry just to have to associate them with moron here.

This kid F1DG3T has hitherto said so many absurd things I do not have the time to point them out.

Keep posting away new leftists! You give us a laugh!

I'm not a member of the SSP Sandanista. Why would I care about Tommy Sheridan?
However I would like you to cite why it is you think Tommy Sheridan is not a socialist. As you aqre part of the new-left I would imagine you would agree with political factions that promote gaining ground through electoral votes.

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 1:42 am on July 21, 2003)

[smoer]

national holliday in belgium today!finally not a flemish holliday.
because i'm proud of being belgian not being flemish thanks to a nazi organisation here in belgium who wonts that the 2 parts of blegium:flandres and wallonia to be seperaited!boo right wingers

[F1DG3T]

Comrade i will argue with you

you say im not worth comenting on and im a kid but can you place some evidence for this

can you say where i have demonstarted such childishness

i have posted on here making claims that fidel was not a great leader that is all i have justified them becuase i can't believe how you can trust someone whos integrity has and can be underminded.

FIDEL has coerced with the enemy in your own words
He is doing it becuase he has no choice fair enough but that doesn't make him a good leader

are you actually a socialist or did you just read books for a hobby

Its about time you brought your theory to the new millenia Wake up the Old times have gone Globalisation exists and unless hardarse morons like your self don't stop shouting down the young members of this board socialism won't evolve

History isn't everything tomorrow is everything

"don't kneel down and pray for the dead activate for the living and rescue those that are about to die"



and Tell me something junichi have you ever had respect for a different opinion

[ComradeJunichi]

Quote: from F1DG3T on 12:39 pm on July 21, 2003
Comrade i will argue with you

you say im not worth comenting on and im a kid but can you place some evidence for this

can you say where i have demonstarted such childishness

i have posted on here making claims that fidel was not a great leader that is all i have justified them becuase i can't believe how you can trust someone whos integrity has and can be underminded.

FIDEL has coerced with the enemy in your own words
He is doing it becuase he has no choice fair enough but that doesn't make him a good leader

are you actually a socialist or did you just read books for a hobby

Its about time you brought your theory to the new millenia Wake up the Old times have gone Globalisation exists and unless hardarse morons like your self don't stop shouting down the young members of this board socialism won't evolve

History isn't everything tomorrow is everything

"don't kneel down and pray for the dead activate for the living and rescue those that are about to die"



and Tell me something junichi have you ever had respect for a different opinion



you say im not worth comenting on and im a kid but can you place some evidence for this

What the fuck does this mean?

can you say where i have demonstarted such childishness

The fact you cannot use logic, the fact that you're easily swayed by Western propaganda and undermine every single socialist movement and revolutionary.

i have posted on here making claims that fidel was not a great leader that is all i have justified them

What the hell does this mean? You made claims that he was not a "good leader", please explain yourself. How did you "justify" your claim? The Miami Cuban Community Times?

becuase i can't believe how you can trust someone whos integrity has and can be underminded.

ROFL!!! Anyones and everyones "integrity has, and can be, underminded (whatever that is)". This part of your post makes absolutely no sense.

FIDEL has coerced with the enemy in your own words

What the HELL does this mean? Do you know what the word "coerce" means?

He is doing it becuase he has no choice fair enough but that doesn't make him a good leader

You know what else? That doesn't make any sense. Noone ever said being obligated to do something makes someone a "good leader".

are you actually a socialist or did you just read books for a hobby

What the fuck does that mean?

Are you actually a socialist? You seem to denounce every single socialist movement and leader.

Its about time you brought your theory to the new millenia Wake up the Old times have gone Globalisation exists and unless hardarse morons like your self don't stop shouting down the young members of this board socialism won't evolve


It also takes discipline to 'evolve' socialism. People don't "shout down" young members of this board, but shout down the idiots on this board. Age barely has anything to do with it, but how mature your mind is, does.

and Tell me something junichi have you ever had respect for a different opinion

Actually, yes I do. In fact, I've been well-known to be a very open-minded person. However, your posts are ridiculous and I don't have to kill braincells by leaving my mind open for you to corrupt it. If you presented some good arguments and wrote so I could read what the hell you were saying, I would definitely look through from your eyes.

Its about time you brought your theory to the new millenia Wake up the Old times have gone Globalisation exists

History isn't everything tomorrow is everything

"don't kneel down and pray for the dead activate for the living and rescue those that are about to die"

REHVUHLOOSHUN!!!

[Sandanista]

I am from Port Glasgow, near greenock, *****.

The sandanistas were just another "left-wing" group that in the end helped served the american right wing further than the nicaraguan people.

I may well be part of the nouveau left, but supporting opportunist bastards like golden boy and basicaly selling true socialist principle in place of a repectable political face (who repects polititions anyway?) needs a slap like you, like anyone who thinks revolution is the armed struggle between a wee tiny group proclaiming socialism over some evil military dictatorship which this "revolution" degenerates into anyway, again, like cuba.