Islamophobia On A Plane!

[YKTMX]

Apparently, according to some on this board, Islamophobia is just some thing I've made up to provide cover for my "softness" on political Islam.

Sadly, guff like that is routed daily by "reality", and instances such as this

Passengers refuse to fly until "Asians" are removed (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=401419&in_page_id=1770&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5)


British holidaymakers staged an unprecedented mutiny - refusing to allow their flight to take off until two men they feared were terrorists were forcibly removed.



extraordinary scenes happened after some of the 150 passengers on a Malaga-Manchester flight overheard two men of Asian appearance apparently talking Arabic.

Passengers told cabin crew they feared for their safety and demanded police action. Some stormed off the Monarch Airlines Airbus A320 minutes before it was due to leave the Costa del Sol at 3am. Others waiting for Flight ZB 613 in the departure lounge refused to board it.

The incident fuels the row over airport security following the arrest of more than 20 people allegedly planning the suicide-bombing of transatlantic jets from the UK to America. It comes amid growing demands for passenger-profiling and selective security checks.

It also raised fears that more travellers will take the law into their own hands - effectively conducting their own 'passenger profiles'.

The passenger revolt came as Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary was accused of using the terror crisis to make money. Government sources say he boasted to an official at the Transport Department: "Every time I appear on TV, I get a spike in sales."

The Tories said the Government's failure to reassure travellers had led the Malaga passengers to 'behave irrationally' and 'hand a victory to terrorists'.

Websites used by pilots and cabin crew were yesterday reporting further incidents. In one, two British women with young children on another flight from Spain complained about flying with a bearded Muslim even though he had been security-checked twice before boarding.

The trouble in Malaga flared last Wednesday as two British citizens in their 20s waited in the departure lounge to board the pre-dawn flight and were heard talking what passengers took to be Arabic. Worries spread after a female passenger said she had heard something that alarmed her.

Passengers noticed that, despite the heat, the pair were wearing leather jackets and thick jumpers and were regularly checking their watches.

Initially, six passengers refused to board the flight. On board the aircraft, word reached one family. To the astonishment of cabin crew, they stood up and walked off, followed quickly by others.

The Monarch pilot - a highly experienced captain - accompanied by armed Civil Guard police and airport security staff, approached the two men and took their passports.

Half an hour later, police returned and escorted the two Asian passengers off the jet.

'There was no fuss or panic'

Soon afterwards, the aircraft was cleared while police did a thorough security sweep. Nothing was found and the plane took off - three hours late and without the two men on board.

Monarch arranged for them to spend the rest of the night in an airport hotel and flew them back to Manchester later on Wednesday.

College lecturer Jo Schofield, her husband Heath and daughters Emily, 15, and Isabel, 12, were caught up in the passenger mutiny.

Mrs Schofield, 38, said: "The plane was not yet full and it became apparent that people were refusing to board. In the gate waiting area, people had been talking about these two, who looked really suspicious with their heavy clothing, scruffy, rough, appearance and long hair.

"Some of the older children, who had seen the terror alert on television, were starting to mutter things like, 'Those two look like they're bombers.'

"Then a family stood up and walked off the aircraft. They were joined by others, about eight in all. We learned later that six or seven people had refused to get on the plane.

"There was no fuss or panic. People just calmly and quietly got off the plane. There were no racist taunts or any remarks directed at the men.

"It was an eerie scene, very quiet. The children were starting to ask what was going on. We tried to play it down."

Mr Schofield, 40, an area sales manager, said: "When the men were taken off they didn't argue or say a word. They just picked up their coats and obeyed the police. They seemed resigned to the fact they were under suspicion.

"The captain and crew were very apologetic when we were asked to evacuate the plane for the security search. But there was no dissent.

"While we were waiting, everyone agreed the men looked dodgy. Some passengers were very panicky and in tears. There was a lot of talking about terrorists."

Patrick Mercer, the Tory Homeland Security spokesman, said last night: "This is a victory for terrorists. These people on the flight have been terrorised into behaving irrationally.

"For those unfortunate two men to be victimised because of the colour of their skin is just nonsense."

Monarch said last night: "The captain was concerned about the security surrounding the two gentlemen on the aircraft and the decision was taken to remove them from the flight for further security checks.

"The two passengers offloaded from the flight were later cleared by airport security and rebooked to travel back to Manchester on a later flight."

A spokesman for the Civil Guard in Malaga said: "These men had aroused suspicion because of their appearance and the fact that they were speaking in a foreign language thought to be an Arabic language, and the pilot was refusing to take off until they were escorted off the plane."

[bcbm]

Wow. That's really all I can say.

[Dyst]

Fuck stupid people.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by YKTMX
Apparently, according to some on this board, Islamophobia is just some thing I've made up to provide cover for my "softness" on political Islam.

Sadly, guff like that is routed daily by "reality", and instances such as this

Uh, the men were removed "because of their appearance and the fact that they were speaking in a foreign language thought to be an Arabic language". In other words, because they were dark....and not because they had any characteristics that are associated with the Muslim faithful. According to the article anyway.

If they had been two "white" men wearing Islamic symbols, then, most likely, no one would have said anything....never mind actually forcing the poor bastards to leave the plane. Which, essentially, makes this an example of racism....and not "Islamophobia".

[Global_Justice]

that is sad. when i heard about this, my mate said "well, they bought it on themselves" and i was like, what? by being asian?

i really think this is going to end up in in an apartheid

[Vanguard1917]

Apparently, according to some on this board, Islamophobia is just some thing I've made up to provide cover for my "softness" on political Islam.

So does this report show that 'Islamophobia' is on the rise? It doesn't.

All it shows is a spontaneous reaction, by some atomised individuals and their families, to a perceived threat. This is a product of our present climate of fear, first and foremost. It is not a product of underlying racial or religious tensions.

British Muslims are no more oppressed than any other group in this country. Post-9/11 has not, contrary to popular belief, given way to increased discrimination against Muslims. In reality, Britain is an increasingly more tolerant country to live in - towards people of different backgrounds, races, religions, etc.

Therefore, the left's embracement of 'political Islam', and its assingment of a special victim status to Western Muslims, is in fact a product of its own political bankruptcy. It has very little to do with 'solidarity with oppressed people'.

[Ander]

Am I the only one who thinks that wearing heavy clothing when the temperature is warm and constantly checking your watch is suspicious?

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 11:53 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that wearing heavy clothing when the temperature is warm and constantly checking your watch is suspicious?
Ridiculous.

If it was two white women they could have had dynamite strapped to their chest and no one would have batted an eyelid.

[YKTMX]

So does this report show that 'Islamophobia' is on the rise? It doesn't.

No, but there is plenty of evidence for that.


It is not a product of underlying racial or religious tensions.

Silly. They've made the judgements precisely on racial and religious grounds. They identified the fact that the gentlemen were speaking in Arabic to each other as one of the things that made them "uneasy".

Now, as far as I know, no one has said "fear people who speak Arabic". But, of course, we know the "kind" of people who speak Arabic and they also happen to be the "kind" that become terrorists. These people, who you blandly apologise for, have made a racial and religious distinction of their volition.


British Muslims are no more oppressed than any other group in this country.

I disagree. I think that Muslims are the most oppressed minority in Britain and the Western world. The Islamic faith and Islamic people have been under constant attack from neo-fascist parties right across Europe. These attacks take a distinctly "religious" character, as these parties shy away from the "racialism" associated with the Nazis. I think the right-wing press has been successful in whipping up this fear, in hope of furthering their own anti-immigrant, pro-war agendas.

I think this agenda provides a backdrop and a justification for our rulers murderous wars in the Middle East and I think that anyone who fails to recognise this reality must be, at best, a sap.


Post-9/11 has not, contrary to popular belief, given way to increased discrimination against Muslims.

Yes, it has.


In reality, Britain is an increasingly more tolerant country to live in - towards people of different backgrounds, races, religions, etc.

I don't see any evidence for that.


Therefore, the left's embracement of 'political Islam', and its assingment of a special victim status to Western Muslims, is in fact a product of its own political bankruptcy. It has very little to do with 'solidarity with oppressed people'.

Well, most of the European left certainly hasn't "embraced" political Islam. The French far left, famously, backed the neo-fascist policy of banning the Hijab in French public schools. I think there's a sense on some parts of the left that Muslim people are instinctively more reactionary and hostile to socialism than other parts of the community. This has no doubt fuelled criticisms of groups on the left, such as the SWP in Britain, that haven't succumbed to prejudice and bigotry.

In fact, it seems to me that if anything is indicative of political bankruptcy, it's the notion that you can win people to revolutionary socialism by slandering their religion, criticising their centuries old culture, call them fascists and terrorists, and joining in the racist fearmongering being whipped up against them.

[LSD]

Am I the only one who thinks that wearing heavy clothing when the temperature is warm and constantly checking your watch is suspicious?

Obviously not. But what this case, and the dozens like it, clearly show is that suspicion is about more than behaviour. If these two men had been white or east asian, no one would have noticed what they were wearing or how often they checked their watches.

(incidently, who here doesn't check their watch while waiting for an airplane to take off?)

But, despite YKTMX's insitance, I don't really think that this article proves that "Islamophobia" is a serious problem, rather it shows that racism is a problem which, really, kind of goes without saying.

I can't even tell from this article whether the "suspects" in question were even arab, let alone Muslim! Other passengers apparently heard what they thought was Arabic, but it could have been Russian for all we know.

"Profiling" has never been about religion -- it's rather hard to pick Muslims out of a line-up -- it's about race. "Islam" is not under attack, brown people are.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I think that Muslims are the most oppressed minority in Britain and the Western world.

I guess you've never heard of Blacks and Latinos in the U.S. (who are super-exploited, in a concrete Marxian sense)?

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 21 2006, 12:31 AM

I think that Muslims are the most oppressed minority in Britain and the Western world.

I guess you've never heard of Blacks and Latinos in the U.S. (who are super-exploited, in a concrete Marxian sense)?
There's a "Marxian" distinction between oppression and "exploitation".


The crucial difference between exploitation and nonexploitative oppression is that in an exploitative relation, the exploiter needs the exploited since the exploiter depends upon the effort of the exploited (Wright 1997:11). This distinction is a structural one and you use it to explain the different outcomes of the Native Americans who were oppressed and therefore not exploited and suffered genocide and the black workers in South Africa who because they were wanted for exploitation (i.e. labour) could not all be killed. I have always found this convincing as a reason why class presents a stronger basis for action than some forms of oppression.

So while Muslims, in the West, are not more overtly exploited by the Capitalist system than other races or religious groups (although, certainly in Britain, British Muslims are the most impoverished and marginalised section of the working class), they are being more explicitly "oppressed" in the sense that they face increasing levels of racism, harassment, unfair treatment, scrutiny etc. The capitalist class, in this epoch, need "The Muslim Issue" to provide some kind of justification and "context" for imperialist barbarism. So they get their court jesters to write polemics about "Islamo-fascism" and the "clash of civilizations".

Sadly, this seeps through to some of the less perceptive elements on the left, and then you get posts on a supposedly revolutionary message board that sound like they've been drafted by the President's Director of Communications.

[PaulMarsh]

The plane incident sounds like a mixture of racism, paranoia and stupidity on behalf of the pilot.

Looks like big bucks compensation on the way for the two men involved.......

[KC]

Damn, I thought this was going to be about Snakes On A Plane.

[Janus]

Damn, I thought this was going to be about Snakes On A Plane.
:lol: :lol:

This is hardly surprising given the recent incident with the arrest of several terror suspects. This really shows how racism particularly concerning stereotypes and paranoia don't mix very well.


If these two men had been white or east asian, no one would have noticed what they were wearing or how often they checked their watches.
Depends, if they were Thai or Indonesian, then the same thing probably would've happened.

[RebelOutcast]

Yeah, I saw this on saturday morning (GMT) and I was pretty livid, so much that I said, "what the fuck" pretty loud which looking at papers in the newsagent and got some odd looks.

I especially hated the Mail on Sunday's article on it which was far to accepting of the incident and nowhere near condemning enough, they even tried to make it sound like the incident was not race motivated with the line, "There were no racist taunts or any remarks directed at the men." Even though the article's title, "Mutiny as passengers refuse to fly until Asians are removed", totally negated it's effect.

I suppose not much less could be expected from most right-wing, mainstream paper in the UK.

FUCK THE DAILY MAIL!

[Phugebrins]

I'd say it's not primarily racist, though there was probably an element of racial prejudice in the mix.

The reason I say this is not because I believe they would have been fine if they were white, but because their race was being used as an indicator of their religion, not an object of suspicion in of itself, and it was their religion that was what made people hostile.

Or, put it another way: if they were walking round speaking arabic - but with big crosses round their necks - would there have been this fuss?

[RedDan]

What I don't get is that these men not only went through the security screening twice; they then searched the plane and the men again when they were taken off the plane as well as their luggage and they still had to stay in a hotel for the night.
That is the worst thing, the men had been proved innocent and safe but airport staff realised that the people on the plane wouldn't accept it and fly with them. The people who refused to fly should have been the ones waiting for the next flight.
Although I do like the fact that the 'Asian' men had realised they were going to be removed and did it calmly and quietly, it makes them look better and the people who refused to fly were exposed as racists.

[Vanguard1917]

Muslims are the most oppressed minority in Britain and the Western world. The Islamic faith and Islamic people have been under constant attack from neo-fascist parties right across Europe. These attacks take a distinctly "religious" character, as these parties shy away from the "racialism" associated with the Nazis. I think the right-wing press has been successful in whipping up this fear, in hope of furthering their own anti-immigrant, pro-war agendas.

The point is that it is the left that has chosen to appeal to 'British Muslims' rather than British Muslims who have gone to the left.

It is the left who has assigned the status of victimhood on British Muslims.

In reality, though, Muslims in Britain are more better off now than they have ever been. Every piece of 'empirical evidence' points to that.

For example, in 'Walthamstan' (i.e. Walthamstow - where the recent terrorist conspiracy took place) British Muslims (mostly Pakistanis) are hardly a downtrodden section of society. They run businesses and are prominent in the professions. The mayor is a Muslim and so is his deputy.

The reason why so many Muslim youth (i.e. second or third generation Muslims) in Britain share anti-Western sentiments has little to do with their economic status. And, contary to what Galloway and the SWP thinks, it does not have much to do with what is happening in Iraq, Afghanistan or Palestine. It has to do with what is happening in Britain. They're a product of the fragmentation that is taking place in the West. Past movements that could mobilise such youth have gone and not much has emerged to replace them. This has given way to the emergence of various nihilistic sentiments within some sections of society. And in order to address this problem, we need to look closer to home.

[LSD]

Depends, if they were Thai or Indonesian, then the same thing probably would've happened.

Possibly, but probably not.

The media's done a pretty could job of painting the "typical terrorist" and it isn't Thai or Indonesian.


The reason I say this is not because I believe they would have been fine if they were white, but because their race was being used as an indicator of their religion, not an object of suspicion in of itself

Except that's what racism is -- using race as an indicator of something.

The KKK doesn't hate black people because they don't like the colour brown, they hate black people because in their eyes, black skin indicates "subhumanity", "violence", "barbarity", etc...

In the case of this airline incident, skin colour was infered to mean "fanaticism" and "terroristic intent". The fact Islam is tied into the whole mess is irrelevent; it wasn't Islam that scared these passengers, it was brown people.


Or, put it another way: if they were walking round speaking arabic - but with big crosses round their necks - would there have been this fuss?

Probably. In fact overt symbols of Christianity might even make other passengers more suspicious as it could indicate that the wearer was "overcompensating".

Again, determining an individual's religion from a superficial examination is virtually impossible, but determining their race is as clear as the skin on their face.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 06:16 PM
In fact, it seems to me that if anything is indicative of political bankruptcy, it's the notion that you can win people to revolutionary socialism by slandering their religion, criticising their centuries old culture,
Haven't communists been doing this for well over 150 years?

[Phugebrins]

"Except that's what racism is"
As I said, there was some racism in that they were using skin colour as an indicator. My point was partly that, unlike the KKK, they were not associating race with personal qualities, but religion: still indefensible racial stereotyping, but of a slightly different kind. Edit: but mostly that the suspicion was directed at the religious persuasion of the two.

Consider the question of ethnic and religious jews. If someone tells you they're jewish in a religious context, do you assume they are of Hebrew descent? Of course, ideally, it's an assumption that shouldn't be made, but with this example, it's easy to see that it's a connection of a different quality to, I don't know, assuming someone of celtic blood is violent.

As to the crosses comparison, you're right - it doesn't quite work because it's not all that common for Christians to stand out.

[SocialJustice19]

Originally posted by YKTMX+Aug 20 2006, 11:59 PM--> (YKTMX @ Aug 20 2006, 11:59 PM)
[email protected] 20 2006, 11:53 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that wearing heavy clothing when the temperature is warm and constantly checking your watch is suspicious?
Ridiculous.

If it was two white women they could have had dynamite strapped to their chest and no one would have batted an eyelid. [/b]
[QUOTE]If it was two white women they could have had dynamite strapped to their chest and no one would have batted an eyelid.

Yes, white people are soo freaking evil. We are filled with racism.Sarcasm obviously.

The reason there is a stigma towards people of dark Middle Eastern descent is because of 9/11 and all the other cases where plots were foiled and the suspsects were of male and of Middel Eastern descent.

And if anyone read some of my thread replies on Christian Communism....I recant and say that not every follower of Islam is bad (yeah people got off topic in that one and I replied). And the same goes with my recent blogs on my site if indeed you went there. And just read this half and disregard because I don't want ya'll to get off topic.

[LSD]

My point was partly that, unlike the KKK, they were not associating race with personal qualities, but religion

And my point was yes they were.

The fact is, again, religion is far too imperceptible a quality around which to base a superstition. Religion is about belief and opinion, two things that are impossible to detect by merely looking a person.

Brown skin, however, that's immediate.

You may be right, some of the complaining passengers on the plane may have assumed that these people were Muslim. But I think that more of them didn't care.

You're assuming that these people underwent a complex thought sequence in which they took race to be indicative of religion, religion to be indicative of intent, and intent to be materially threatening.

I would contend, however, that most of these people just viscerally reacted to the sight of an Arab (or at least non-white) face. From the media, from the propaganda, from the indoctrination of 5 years of "War on Terror" and 20 years before that of antiarabist portrayals, when they saw what they thought was an Arab on a plane, they freaked.

I would even go so far as to propose that even if every passenger on this plane knew for certain that these men were Christian, they still would have been frightened if they heard them speaking arabic ...or saw them checking their watches.

That's the nature of racism, it's illogical, but it's also incredibly powerful, especially when it has powerful interests behind it.

The worse Arabs look to Western populations, the less resistance the bourgeoisie will have in its imperialist ventures. As with most things, this ultimately comes down to money.


Yes, white people are soo freaking evil. We are filled with racism

Many are, yes. But anti-arab racism is not restricted to "caucasians". It's a problem among many groups in the "west", if not all.

Although it should be noted that, as an extension of historical anti-"coloured" racism, this current anti-arab hysteria is least felt by, as per usual, white people.

No one is saying that "all white people" are responsible for racism, but we cannot ignore that it's been universally white people leading the racist cause.


The reason there is a stigma towards people of dark Middle Eastern descent is because of 9/11 and all the other cases where plots were foiled and the suspsects were of male and of Middel Eastern descent.

White men are more likely to be serial killers than any other demographic. But how many people cross the street when they see a white man?

Don't try to rationalize racism, it's an impossible task.

[SocialJustice19]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 11:01 PM

My point was partly that, unlike the KKK, they were not associating race with personal qualities, but religion

And my point was yes they were.

The fact is, again, religion is far too imperceptible a quality around which to base a superstition. Religion is about belief and opinion, two things that are impossible to detect by merely looking a person.

Brown skin, however, that's immediate.

You may be right, some of the complaining passengers on the plane may have assumed that these people were Muslim. But I think that more of them didn't care.

You're assuming that these people underwent a complex thought sequence in which they took race to be indicative of religion, religion to be indicative of intent, and intent to be materially threatening.

I would contend, however, that most of these people just viscerally reacted to the sight of an Arab (or at least non-white) face. From the media, from the propaganda, from the indoctrination of 5 years of "War on Terror" and 20 years before that of antiarabist portrayals, when they saw what they thought was an Arab on a plane, they freaked.

I would even go so far as to propose that even if every passenger on this plane knew for certain that these men were Christian, they still would have been frightened if they heard them speaking arabic ...or saw them checking their watches.

That's the nature of racism, it's illogical, but it's also incredibly powerful, especially when it has powerful interests behind it.

The worse Arabs look to Western populations, the less resistance the bourgeoisie will have in its imperialist ventures. As with most things, this ultimately comes down to money.


Yes, white people are soo freaking evil. We are filled with racism

Many are, yes. But anti-arab racism is not restricted to "caucasians". It's a problem among many groups in the "west", if not all.

Although it should be noted that, as an extension of historical anti-"coloured" racism, this current anti-arab hysteria is least felt by, as per usual, white people.

No one is saying that "all white people" are responsible for racism, but we cannot ignore that it's been universally white people leading the racist cause.


The reason there is a stigma towards people of dark Middle Eastern descent is because of 9/11 and all the other cases where plots were foiled and the suspsects were of male and of Middel Eastern descent.

White men are more likely to be serial killers than any other demographic. But how many people cross the street when they see a white man?

Don't try to rationalize racism, it's an impossible task.
[QUOTE]Don't try to rationalize racism, it's an impossible task.

Yeah...I wasn't rationalizing racism.

[YKTMX]

The point is that it is the left that has chosen to appeal to 'British Muslims' rather than British Muslims who have gone to the left.

Respect has appealed to Muslim voters on the basis of a reformist socialist platform and a consistent anti-war message. Muslims voters have always been one of the more strongly "Labour" sections of the electorate. So I really can't see how we're "appealing" to them on anything but a Left platform.


It has to do with what is happening in Britain. They're a product of the fragmentation that is taking place in the West.

That is so patronising. What you're saying is "what you're angry about you're not really angry about". I think that British Muslims have been effected by the recent rise in war and racism more than other groups, and I think they realise that, which is they're so solidly anti-war and anti-Blair.


This has given way to the emergence of various nihilistic sentiments within some sections of society.

In what sense is the terrorist Islamist movement "nihilistic"? I've never really seen that. It may be terrible, misanthropic, despairing and cruel but "nihilistic"?

It seems to me that people kill people and themselves because of great injustice around the world are not "nihilists".

It's this kind of language that worries me. First of all, you say they're not really upset about the things they're upset about (or at least suggested they shouldn't be). And then you say they don't really give a shit anyway.

Why is it that some people on the left can't ascribe rational actions, conscience and intelligence to Muslims?

[Vanguard1917]

That is so patronising. What you're saying is "what you're angry about you're not really angry about".

They are angry about the war. But to say that the actions of handfuls of Western youth - born and raised in the West, perhaps from middle class and priviledged backgrounds - are 'political' and a consequence of British foreign policy is to ascribe meaning to actions that are actually thoroughly meaningless.

In fact, even using the word 'terrorist' to describe these individuals is to ascribe to their actions some sort of purpose, as though they actually had a political aim that they chose to accomplish through the means of terror.

And that is why they are nihilists: scratch beneath the surface of the 'anti-war' and 'anti-imperialist' rhetoric which they may occasionally employ and it is clear that they have no political aims whatsoever. That is the key difference between today's brand of terrorism and the terrorism of the past. The latter, you could actually evaluate politically, criticise and seek to influence - because they may have had defensible/justifiable political aims.

It's not that today's terrorism has political aims i don't agree with - it's that they don't have political aims at all that are worth taking seriously. It's only a testimony to the fargility of certain sections of the bourgeoisie that they are taken seriously, as some sort of threat to 'Western civilisation'. And, unfortunately, it is also a testimony to the bankruptcy of the left when everyone within it seems to agree that '7/7' was a direct consequence of British foreign policy.

[rouchambeau]

Are they asking passengers their religion at airports now?

[Raisa]

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 20 2006, 06:25 PM
Wow. That's really all I can say.
The plane should have took off without them.

[The Grey Blur]

I can't believe this debate was dragged into semantics by some people