You cute leftists... Awwww - Tools and thats exactly what y

[Douche the Bagger]

This is for those, concerning themselves about working with the government to change it for the good of all. Your living a mother fucking lie. ( A swear because its a sentence enhancer) "No War" protesters in the US - pacifist pussies. There is no fucking democracy within the US, all there is is capitalism and its founders, the bourgeois class. It controls the present, leading to control of the past(the majority) but not the future. Why? Because the ruling class has still not perfected the art of silencing those in opposition, from the past and present, there is still hope for our future. What it has done and is doing; lying. misleading. killing, sabotaging. brainwashing. and exploiting (to name a few ;))
They are successful, I see it in this "Che" community. Which many are being hypocrtical to the very meaning. Unless there is an era of history where Che participated in a fascist "democracy" and was discontent and started pacing back and forth holding a little sign, many of you misrepresent his overal fight and meaning. Think of the person who breaks the chains holding his mind back and visits this community. What does he/she see? He/she see people falsely representing something that is very important and sacred in idea and definition to those who fight to change the world, from one struggle to the next. Hmm?... What is meant to mislead and misinturpert?.... Oh yeah, propaganda. Most are innocent and can claim not be a tool because the psychological impacts occur in the subconscience. Lies are used to undermine the crediblity of the opposition. Responses and ideas that are ignorant, misinforming but carry weight(due to overexaggeration and repeditiveness) do the same.
How to fight it?... Knowledge my comrades. Im still young, I know this might seem hypocritical because younge people are not supposed to be wise. A popular theme in this country "Teenagers knowing everything." Why is that? Because our education system is in the shitter and is lead by those who want to keep (i)the(i/) knowledge away from the people, the public(more fitting- public education). Most people underestimate the power and control of the government. Those who do not and wish to side with evil in exchange for possessions and power are government agents, (most likey similar to an intern program as far as riches and power go). These agents are ones that act ignorant and misinformed so well as to undermine a movement of any kind staged by the opposition.
I touched on the importance of knowledge but not how to achieve it. I believe it is through the writings of revolutionary minds, the opposition, those who are against greed, a ruling class, power hungry ect.. evil. In a religious view, you can compare the ones in charge to demons. (In a sence, the bible could be just the struggle of mankind. A non fictional novel)
Protesting is a tool of the ruling class, it could be more than likely used as a thermometer, used to find the boiling point or point where the rulers are warned about the outbreak of a revolution of change (something similar to...persay.. being conservative?...Republicans?) And accordingly, the government finds a way to bring down the tempature, giving into protestors on the smallest fraction of the actual cause, undermining the psyche of an individual protestor, creating another tool.
Any action is uncontrollable by anyone else other than the indivdual, it might be able to predict, through science and psychology but it is not controlled. This is a natural freedom, giving the will and power to gain knowledge and cause change.
I hope someone grasps this and not just be a giant waste of effort and time. Knowledge is infinite!

We do not have much time left to change

[Nobody]

Amen DtB!!! One question, who here wants to work with the gov. to make reforms. This is a fringe group, the ultra-left, who post here. I too believe we must raise our fists and topple to ruling class.

I feel the best tool we can use is to disband te now defunct 4th international and start the 5th international, but this time DO something. It should act as the political wing of a revolutionary movement, an armed revolution. We must get all socilaists, Communist and Anarchist parties to work together to accomplish a shared goal, a dicatorship of the working-class. First we must educate, as you said, then we must strike while the iron is hot!

p.s. DtB were do you live? I'm trying to form a revolutionary group to strike against capitial in the manner you metioned earlier. I read Mandela's auto and got the idea for a sabatoge campagian and was planning to post, but you beat me too it.

[truthaddict11]

revolution not revisionism

[elijahcraig]

You are being unrealistic. I am a revolutionist, but I also know that you must build a base for the revolution. Douche, you seem to be mad because we did not agree with your "takeover" of the media, or whatever you call it. Now, I'd like to know how you propose to do that. You say, "The masses will surely follow." But the fact is, they will not! They are not ok with violence. You have to get them behind you through peaceful protests, and that sort first. The media would turn you into a terrorist organization. I guess you are also against the general strike?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I agree with elijahcraig....for once.

Lev, it is not only the "ultra-left" who post here. I don't know where you got that idea.

[mentalbunny]

Apparently Che advised against guerrilla movements in first world countrieas as they are too likely to fail.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Doesn't really take a genius to work that one out though.

Can you imagine a bunch of camouflage-clad Commies setting up anti-tank booby traps in Trafalgar Square?

[Monks Aflame]

I cannot imagine guerilla warfare in the US (assuming you are talking about the US). The country is huge, filled with a mass multitude of people. Organization would be a huge problem, but it is definitely second to mobilization. I'd say the majority of Americans are middle class. These people are happy. They don't want to join a revolution, for the most part. America isn't the land of oppressed peasant farmers.

Taking over the US would make revolutions in all other countries much easier (having the resources) but I can't see it in the near future. The majority of people I know are living happy ignorant lives here. They don't know, or want to know, about a revolution. The youth is completely blind, and I stand firm next to Mao Ze Dong in believing that a country's future rides on the feet of the youth.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I don't think anyone was saying a guerilla coup could take place in the US.

As for the comment about the youth, it is of course correct. We are the least "locked in" sector of the population. Much of todays youth ('youth' now often straying to the age of around 20 due to huge University placement increases) have no economic, political or social ties hanging them down. We are much more free than those older than us, who have commitments, responisbilities and worries which make them stray from confronting societal problems.

The problem becomes, however, that we need to be educated properly. This is where the problem lay as we are not neccesarily "not educated properly", but not educated in the fields which will encourage us to look for a better change. Politics, Sociology....they dont want us to study these, so they decrease the availability of them; place less emphasis on them, and dont encourage them as much (not to the masses anyway..more so to elite sectors of society at an older age). Media Studies, Maths, Languages...these are encouraged and widely available as they will not enlighten people with the problems we live in.

(Edited by Socialsmo o Muerte at 4:35 pm on July 14, 2003)

[Monks Aflame]

Yes, political science, sociology... these are all college courses. Of course, of the entire college community of America, most are probably there for the line on their resume. And the poor aren't exactly gonna afford college. Sucks, eh?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

In the UK, Sociology and Politics are not mentioned to us. We have to go to the teachers ourselves and think "Oh, I want to do Sociology actually" because we aren't presented with it when choosing subjects for GCSE or A Level (the two secondary education stages). Like you said, only when University comes do they gain popularity. But here, this is largely through the "Ivy League" and elitist colleges. And what political needs do they have compared to what the masses need! Very different. Thus, leaving us with the few controlling the many with the needs of the many ignored.

It's a horrible spiral.

[CompadreGuerrillera]

As grim as it looks in "first world countries" there must be a way, every power, or organization or government has a weakness, we know what ours are(at least in the US), organization is a key weakness, lack of proletariat class is a MAJOR weakness(as our whole ideals are for the revolution of the proletariat), but we need to work around our weaknesses, not allow ourselves to be held back by them. We cant let THEM fight THIER way, we need to force THEM to fight OUR way.

The U.S. however does have some weaknesses, many of the stationed national guard units(which is what well be up against at first) are not in their local recruitment areas, many do not know the local land, this a huge weakness, as many revolts in this country will prolly be local, we need to find a way to interlink them, but i think we may have an advantage(at first) as long as we strike first.

Tactics need to be revisited when it comes to the US, it wont be the same as Cuba, or Nepal, we need to look to the revolution here, a lot differently

[Nobody]

The revoluition in the US needs to be quick and final, before the army can launch a counter-offensive. If we can conquer the countr over night, read mass popular uprisings, then the army will demobilize, they will relize it is not worth fighting for. So the revolution can not start with a milinant "vanguard" instead it needs to a revoluition as Marx saw it, sudden and quick, basically an unplanned uprising. Only then can western nations fall to marxism.

[BRIN]

I heard that the old red brigade were very succesful in they're assasinations,kiddnappings and bombings.They were the most feared group in europe up till '95 when most of the ring leaders got busted.


Also the IRA seem to be allways reeking havok on northern Ireland and England and their efforts are not wasted for they are giving the FARC rebels a hand and they're also creating parranoia within brittain therefore setting back the ecconomy.


So a armed struggle could work in a first world country but i agree with you guys that a dipplomatic would probbly work better and be easier

[dopediana]

we have to be basic. as che said "there are no liberators, the people liberate themselves"

first thing really is to not necessarily take over the media, but get a huge indy counter-media thing going. point out faults and untruths in news stories, cite sources, give numbers. to convert a developed country, you have to change the mindset of the people. you guys are talking about weapons and how to defeat the usa national guard. you're supposed to be doing it for the POPULUS, for the PEOPLE. do you want to burn down washington? if that's the way you'd like to go, fine, but it will only make people angrier and filled with more pride in the american way.

once you get everyone thinking against the government, "manipulating" their minds, then you can think about taking out the military bases. and honestly, guerrilla warfare? who will shelter us? "white trash" trailer park folk? whoopee!

seriously, the concept of revolution has to first evolve in the mind of the people, not in the arming of 0.05% of the population....

[Douche the Bagger]

Finally I have my voice back and able to respond, which Ive been waiting for impatiently. First-
"A huge indy counter-media thing," Getting a national audience(legally) is getting closer to being impossible day after day. Corporations are slowly consuming all media outlets for complete control, buying radio and television stations out becuase it too much for the local joe to continue to operate next to the huge corporations. The most likely place to start is community TV or radio, but its never watched(or thats what Ive seen so far). Lets not use the word manipulation as in terms of being good, because its not.

I do not really want to say more, because all of this can be easily brought to the enemies attention, its just not safe. If anyone can think of a safe way of communication via snail mail or any other means please let me know.

[Nobody]

Douche, I think you're a tad overzealous when it comes to be comprisied. While I have a great deal of respect for you, esp in your beliefs of the revolution, remember, this is a German-run website. Secondly, we are, for the most part, kids who talk big. While we should not make overt threats, discussing the "revolution" in broad theorical terms would be ok. The CIA is more worried about Islamic fanatics, or Montana freemen with pictures of them with their mini guns, not armchair revolutionaries.

[Douche the Bagger]

Your right, I just cant help being paranoid after knowing how this country(US) is ran. Its very easy to kill without anyone caring why or what exactly happened, it will just add to the injustice that happens daily, something that the gov't can easily live with.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

They'd care if it was a far-leftist killing though, dude

[trotskycadre]

I think everyone who gets heavily interested in leftist politics (especially socialist politics) falls into the trap of ultra-leftism and unrealistic assessment of situations and the sentiments of the masses. But if we really want to build up a mass movement dedicated to the winning of socialism we need people organizing in their work places, organizing against management, kids educating their fellow students in the schools, and marxist evaluation of the mass' attitudes towards decisive issues. Through marxist evaluation and a truly democratic, broad-based movement we can avoid sectarianism and win large parts of the working class. word.

[ahigherpeace]

Guerilla warfare is not the solution for a)denouncing and B) overthrowing a rightwing neo-facist corperate government. You say that "knowledge" is the key to change well thats essentially true however the most knowledgable aspects of a revolution of any form are gained from culture and things we like to call books... You see earlier extreme casses of Marxism there were things such as book-burnings and a Socialist revolution as depndence on Guerilla warfare--therefore, if you're picking this up, may not be the most "knowledgable" way of revolution. Now an extreme peace advocat very influenced through books was Gandhi, he as you know his progressive revolution was based primarily on "satyagraha" or "truth-force"-- My friend (weepingbuddha) told me a story about how when Gandhi was imprisoned by the Britains a salvo of Gadhi followers asked for the guards to release him, when they would not each follower one by one walked up to the gates frequently requesting his release and consistently recieved a harsh blow each occurance. My reasoning for telling you this is that as I'm sure you believe it is indecent and revolting to resort to living on your knees to an imperialistic power. Now weather it's is worth dieing for to stand up to that power is a different topic, but NOTHING IS WORTH KILLING FOR! Buddha says that when you do not except someones violence it becomes their own, if you return their acts of hate with the exhualted opposition of peace, then you will only feel that of which you give, and the aggressors will feel the guilt form the hate they tried to displace. I am not trying to be a crying liberalist in this response, nor a Buddhist, nor a Toaist, actually my support leans far Socialist, anything benificial to the proletariat is worth revolution but you need to decide the best course of revolution, and I believe that Guerilla warfare is not the best course of action. After all as Che said "bad leaders are simply replaced bymore bad leaders" (or something along those lines). Agressed warfare is not the answer even if it's promoting Marxism, you need some form of a DIVERSE democracy so you don't have power hungry dictators, and another Stalin genocide. Agressed harsh warfare even in your own country can be considered invasion, remember what Che said at the UN speech in 1964 "We feel that that conference is necessary to obtain the total destruction of thermonuclear weapons and, as a first step, the total prohibition of tests. At the same time, there must clearly be established the obligation of all states to respect the present frontiers of other states and to refrain from indulging in any aggression, even with conventional weapons." In conclusion, it's easy to denounce protestors as crying pacifists, but understand the realization that pacifism/protest is the first step to civil disobedience, which is boardering the lines of non-violent activism, which through Gandhi has proven to be the most progressive and ritcheous terms of revolution.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Good luck educating. What a pipe dream.


To "educate" the masses you must first eliminate competing factions that are educating the masss with their rhetoric as well. Since capitalism is the global ruler, I don't see this happening.

Then you must de-programme the masses with the media and massive propagandic efforts.

Then you must re-programme your rhetoric in it's place.

The new-left as tools of capitalism will have the party waiting 10,000 years before any change would happen. Absolutely foolish.

Luckily capitalism will extiguish itself much sooner than than.

Forget about the working class in the USA. They are mindless sheep. Mobilise the 10,000,000 unemployed yanks and the 33,000,000 yanquees living in squalor.
They are ready and willing.

[stonerboi]

I agree with Comrade_RAF. The capitalist system makes it very hard to 'educate the workers to socialism' because they will throw down thier own varied ideologies.

In Britain, many working class people have started to notice how much shit their in. They have few trade union right and their union leaders are a bunch of sellouts. When the capitalist ruling class notices this discontent, they know people are fed up with noe-liberal tory policies (both Labour and the Conservatives), so they try and iduce the masses with an alternative capitalist ideology.

All of a sudden the right-wing media comes up with hundreds of racist scarestories about asylum seekers and the 'decline of British values'. This imense racist campaign is aided by the likes of establishment politicians (David Blunkett comes to mind here) who parrot the racist lies and the result is exactly what the capitalist system wants. From being a neo-Nazi sect the BNP rises to have 16 councillers and is now given constant media attention, most of this attention being favorable to the BNP. Trotsky said that fascism is used by capitalism in its dying days to stave off the inevitable workers revolution. Wheter you are Trotskyist or not, this thoery makes a lot of sense because it is now happening in front of our very eyes.

Capitalism is let off the hook, because the people are told to blame asylum seekers instead of the managers, CEOs, politcians and failed neo-liberal policies on societies ills. Fascism is the preferable alternative for the ruling class if they cannot contain the anger of the people within the framework of capitalist democracy.

In response to ahigherpeace's thread, sometimes you DO HAVE TO KILL for whatever reason. Total pacifism it stupid. Did non-violence help the Jews as they were being carted off to the Death Camps? The Holocaust is a perfect example of how pacifism is nothing but a complete failure. Communists are anti-militarist but we do believe that War is sometimes needed. We also state that the Class War is the last war to end all nationalist imperialist wars.

I am sorry but when you back up these pie-in-the-sky remarks with the sayings of Bhudda, then you have completley discreditted your statement. For one I will not listen to the teachings of any religion and Bhuddism is a reactionary and right-wing as the rest!

For all of those who think Bhuddism is a peaceful religion, then look no further that Sri-Lanka where Bhuddist monks blow themselves up against non-bhuddist ethnic minorities and call for 'Bhuddist holy war' agianst their opponents, the hindu tamils.

Also Ghandi was not much of an inspiration either. Whislt noble against the barbarity of the British Empire, He was not much use when it came to solving Indias deep social ills. Upon independece, Indias wealth passed from the British to a small wealthy Indian elite. The Indian people live in as much poverty today as they did back then! Thus Ghandi was an acitivist, but not a revolutionary as Indian society remained the same upon independence and no move were taken to improve the lot for the Indian people.