Nelson Mandela

[Comrade Raz]

I've seen alot of you guys on here slagging of South Africa for being the capitalist hell hole of Africa but surely we must pay tribute to Nelson Mandela as a true martyr of racial equality.

[RED FIRE]

True words,comrade

[Iwannaarevolt]

Yes Nelson Mandella Is a great man, and he overcame so much and made the world a little better.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Raz, the reason you have seen such sentiments is because, unfortunately, many people here see race struggle as a pathetic thing and that class struggle is the only struggle in existence. And they believe that with the end of class struggle will come the end of race struggle.

They see class differences as the only significant conflict in the world.

Of course, some know differently however. Indeed, Mandela deserves no end of praise. One of the few real heroes of the last century.

[Reuben]

to some extent i agree. Communists have to be able to reconcile what marx wrote in 1948 with the reality on the ground. OF course full emancipation can onyl come about through class struggle. However it would be ridiculous to to tell a black south african in the 19870s, everyday humiliated on account of their ethnicity that they only had class interests. Arguably the prerequisite to a unified class struggle had to be the end of apartheid, since in economic terms exploited white workers benefitted from the super exploitation of the black workers. Any form of unified class struggle would b complicated by the fact that, for example, many white workers had black doemstic servants, and thus the interests of white and black workers did not necessarily converge.

Habing said this it is vital that the reedom charter, a charter promising the redistribution of land to those who work it amongst other things, is implemented.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Whilst you still unfortunately see class struggle victory as the be all and end all, at least you appreciate that race struggle is separate.

[CienfuegosJnr]

C
U
B
A
why bring it u?
Socalismo o muerte?

[CienfuegosJnr]

sorry drunk-
no more post!!

[Reuben]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 5:20 pm on July 10, 2003
Whilst you still unfortunately see class struggle victory as the be all and end all, at least you appreciate that race struggle is separate.




if your going to try and re-interpret what i say at least do it with a degree of accuracy and subtlety. and drop the patronising tone

With regard to seeing class struggle 'as the be all and end all' I recognise that a level of emancipation could come about through the end of national/racial oppression. I simply argued, uite legitimately that thee south africans would not be fully free until class struggle and economic change had taken plae so that poor blacks did not hae to sell themselves as domestic sevants or as miners creating a great deal of value and getting very little in return.

[elijahcraig]

I think race struggle is a product of class stuggle which is a product of capitalism, so, no, it isn't separate.

[Just Joe]

The black workers in Africa were a class of there own. They were the 'prolaterians' if you like. There race struggle was basically a class struggle in itself. The white worker in South Africa was part of the Labour aristocracy.

[Reuben]

exactly what i was trying to say just joe,

economic conflict in south africa was not a simple bilateral struggle between the bourgoirsie and proletariat. Not people that i did not talk of a race struggle, that reactionary idea was simply attributed to my post my S O M

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

elijahcraig,

please explain, therefore, the existence of racism in ancient times. Before any type of capitalist system existed. Alexander The Great, for example, when he strode through Egypt, saw that statues were made of black people and was so disgusted that he destroyed or defaced them.

Way before Alexander The Great's time, racism existed. I just use that example because it is a well-known one. Men will always look for a way to exploit the next man and get one over on them. Before any kind of class system existed, the easiest way to do this was on the basis of physical characteristics. And the most distinct physical characteristic is, of course, skin colour.

This kind of ancient racism existed way before any different "social classes", based on econimic and social status, even existed. Racism and race conflict was the first as the differences between the two "sectors" are so fundamental and so easy to depict.

You could also look at what is called "racism" between religions. Although I don't subscribe to calling this form of conflict "racism", it is usually called so. This dates back to God-knows when (like the pun?) in the days of the early Arab-Jew and Arab-Muslim rivalry. Although as I've just said I dont call this "racism", its probably useless to support my point.

You could even go back as far as the conflicts between the Amorites, the Hittites and the Hurrians in their conflict with the Canaanite people in the 2nd Millenium B.C. Information on this is minimal, but ancient historians and Egyptologists do say that the conflict was based on facial features and skin colour. I'm sure you will agree, this counts as racism.

So, as you will agree, I'm sure, racism in many forms existed way before the existence of any capitalist system, so for racism to be a result of class struggle and capitalism is quite impossible.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Reuben, I did understand what you meant. I meant my post in a sarcastic sense.

It is true to an extent what you say. So do we call it class struggle or race struggle?

[Rastafari]

Im not quite sure about you sometimes Socialsmo o Muerte, you have some really good points about 75% of the time, but what you say seems to piss me off a lot, too.

But who give a fuck how I feel

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

What was wrong with my last point? It's just all putting forward facts.

[Rastafari]

this is true, and I do think that Elijahcraig must be stopped. Excuse my semi-violent rants, if you could be merciful, as I am not myself heute

[mentalbunny]

Ah nice to see a german speaker, rastafari.

I agree wholeheartedly with Reuben on this one, so I don't have much to add, excpet that SoM would get furtherr without being so patronising, or at least appearing to be patronising.