Socialism is NOT a Utopia

[Rawthentic]

Help me convince my dad comrades that socialism is not a utopia; I have presented concrete evidence why it is not, yet he still thinks it is. I need some, concise, practical information and thoughts to convince him.

The main thing I said which is enough to convince anybody is; " Socialism is not a utopia because its roots lie in capitalist society and the possibility lies in the hands of the working class. Utopias are born out of the blue and have no connection to reality" And he STILL thinks its a utopia. Help me

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Well it's not a utopia because it has happened before. Look at the Paris Commune for example. It's simply not utopian because it has actually occured before and is not fictional.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Perhaps you could also mention Spain?

[Cult of Reason]

If you mean Socialism as in worker control of the means of production and distribution, then that has happened before and is not Utopian.

[Phugebrins]

First, try asking him for evidence that it is utpoian. Second, be prepared to explain how things might work. If you can't find examples from Spain or Cuba, depending on your particular preference, there are descriptions of the mechanics of society in works like the Anarchist's FAQ or Towards A New Socialism. In proving it's not utopian, you don't necessarily have to prove a perfectly ideal socialism is possible, either, just that societal change can occur: once that's been accepted, you can simply argue there's no reason why such change can't be directed appropriately (i.e. not resulting in a 1917ff situation).

[Delta]

Yes, admit that a socialist society would not necessarily be perfect, but then reverse the argument on him. Let him imagine that you lived in a socialist country and you two were discussing the prospects of starting a capitalist society. Imagine all the objections that you would have to a capitalist society! "Wait so, even though there's more than enough production capability for food some people will still starve because a few rich people can't make a profit off of it?" "Would influential people in a capitalist society not want to start wars to further their business?", etc.

[Rawthentic]

Thanks comrade, these are good arguments. I plan to use them today when he gets home from work. :D

[Delta]

Great, let us know how it goes. When I go back to my parent's house for winter break I might have that sort of discussion with my father or at least my father-in-law (who is very conservative).

[Rawthentic]

Are you a college student?

Are you a part of some revolutionary organization?

[Delta]

I'm a graduate student, and no, I'm not formally part of any revolutionary organization.

[bezdomni]

Well, Marxism is based on Historical Materialism and a materialist analysis of history and society, not an idealist one which is common amongst uptopians.

The basic difference between Utopian and Marxian socialism is:

Utopian: Socialism sounds good so we should all live on a commune and be happy.

Marxist: Socialism is the inevitable result of the class antagonisms inherent to the capitalist mode of production.

[Rawthentic]

Yes&#33; That sounds good, I wonder why I didnt say that in the first place. Thanks anyway. And another thing, he keeps denying that Marx came up with communist theory as a result of decades of scientific research. And he hasnt even read Marx before <_<

[sanpal]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 04:28 PM
And another thing, he keeps denying that Marx came up with communist theory as a result of decades of scientific research. And he hasnt even read Marx before <_<
My good advice for you - let your dad to be free from your ideologic pressure. It won&#39;t do much for world revolution. Respect your dad who has given you a life, reared and educated you.

[Rawthentic]

I do respect him, but I would like to correct his misconceptions.

[sanpal]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 08:07 PM
I do respect him, but I would like to correct his misconceptions.
Persons&#39;s view or ideology form through years and to convert it into another one not easily. It will take rather much time for it. Nevertheless I wish you good luck. I prefer to keep off religious and communist discussing in my family not to destroy good relations. May be I&#39;m wrong.

[Rawthentic]

I think that you&#39;re right; that&#39;s why I sometimes like to keep these topics to myself.

[Eleutherios]

Socialism is not a utopia because utopias are free of problems. Socialism&#39;s focus is merely on creating better social institutions which can deal with problems more fairly, and eliminating the gross inequalities which are the cause of many (but certainly not all) of the problems in capitalist societies.

[Rawthentic]

True. I have said all this to my dad, but he is very stubborn. I think it is due to the fact that I am 16 years old and cannot prove him wrong because it will hurt his pride.

[Rawthentic]

So, what do you think is wrong with him if he still doesnt understand that socialism is not a utopia after all the clear evidence that I have presented them?

[RedCommieBear]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 01:51 AM
So, what do you think is wrong with him if he still doesnt understand that socialism is not a utopia after all the clear evidence that I have presented them?
Sometimes, even provided with clear evidence, people just won&#39;t believe you. However, don&#39;t give up on trying to convince him socialism is not a utopia. It might take a while. A lot of people who are in support of capitalism, aren&#39;t so because they actually believe in it, but because they dont&#39; see socialism as a viable alternative. They also object to the creation of a new ruling class in the Soviet Union (State Capitalism). Give examples besides Soviet Russia, like the Paris Commune.

You might also want to bring up Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Socialist_Federal_Republic_of_Yugos lavia). You&#39;d have to decide if you wanted to include that one for yourself, as Yugoslavia used some market socialism in their economy.

(Edit: Added part about Yugoslavia)

[Delta]

Even if your arguments are good, sometimes people aren&#39;t able to open their mind up enough to hear them. But you never know, seeds that you plant now might end up growing with time.

[Rawthentic]

Even if your arguments are good, sometimes people aren&#39;t able to open their mind up enough to hear them. But you never know, seeds that you plant now might end up growing with time.

Hopefully, if not, I fear that our relations in the future can get bad.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

So, what do you think is wrong with him if he still doesnt understand that socialism is not a utopia after all the clear evidence that I have presented them?

Some people are simply not attracted to socialism. And some people simply don&#39;t want to listen when they hear the words "socialism".

Sometimes the best thing can be to not try to directly "convert" someone to a particular belief or set of thought, and just be yourself.

I have some quite rightwing members in my family, but I think like this; If they won&#39;t bother me with their rightwing crap and respect my opinions, I won&#39;t bother them with mine.

Sometimes the most respect you can get from a person is if you unconditionally accept the other persons view, in the way that "it is your right to feel so and I won&#39;t stop you". Then perhaps people might listen more closely. No one likes debating with preachers (this is not directed to anyone here in particular, I&#39;m talking in general), and you might catch their interest if you are open minded and let them have their views and not trying to impose yours on them.

We revolutionaries should realize that most people, in fact the VAST majority of people, do believe socialism is an utopia, something that belongs to a fantasy world. Those who believe socialism is achievable and has existed are a very tiny minority, and those who believe it is an utopia are a very large and powerful majority. It can be useful to remind ourselves of this every once in a while. It&#39;s tempting to think otherwise if you post regularily on revolutionary leftist politics forums :P

;)

[Dyst]

The best method I have found is this:

Don&#39;t "preach". Don&#39;t just bring up socialism or communism randomly.

If you watch the news on TV, and there&#39;s for example something about Africa or Donald Trump, you can bring up the problems with capitalism, rather than talking about communism itself. You can for example bring up how normal working people are robbed every day, because their boss will only give you salary which is lower than what people produce for. Or you can say that the world has enough food to make everyone more than &#39;well fed&#39;, yet because the system divides it so poorly people still go starving.

Then sooner or later you can bring up the solution to these large problems. The best idea is to try to avoid using words like communism, socialism, anarchism and even marxism. The reason for this is that the media (owned by very rich people) obviously don&#39;t want the people revolting against the rich people, so therefore words like these have often been portrayed negatively. Just say for example that politically, democracy means that everyone should have the same possibilities and influences (though it&#39;s not like that today.) Wouldn&#39;t economic democracy mean that everyone should have the same rights to obtain material goods, and have equal amount of economic influence? Etc.

Then after a while you can explain that that is what marxism is about.

[Rawthentic]

He knows of all the horrors of capitalism, he just doesnt accept socialism for what it is. Im not crazy over the fact that he doesnt understand, its just that he brought it up one day so I had to present my views.

[RedCommieBear]

Originally posted by hastalavictoria+Aug 20 2006, 05:50 PM--> (hastalavictoria &#064; Aug 20 2006, 05:50 PM)Hopefully, if not, I fear that our relations in the future can get bad.[/b]
Hmm.... I don&#39;t know.

"Dad, stop calling me. I can&#39;t talk to you anymore. The problem between our relationship is that we disagree over the validity of the Labor theory of value." :)


NWOG
I have some quite rightwing members in my family, but I think like this; If they won&#39;t bother me with their rightwing crap and respect my opinions, I won&#39;t bother them with mine.

Agreed.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Utopians believe that a society based on equality will start from people realizing that the current society they live in is "wrong" and immoral, and that a new society based on equality is moral.

Marxists and other revolutionaries on the other hand know that working masses will just get sick of their living conditions and desire better conditions, this doesn&#39;t mean the masses will all of a sudden understand socialist theory. So it&#39;s up to us to present them with this alternative.

If your dad starts talking about how it&#39;s utopian to believe that through Communism we will make society perfect, you should tell him that no where have we stated we are going to make society perfect. If its like him to suggest that anyone who wishes to make a better world is utopian, then everyone should just give up on involved in politics. If you think about it "perfection" doesn&#39;t exist, there just no way of knowing what perfect is, it&#39;s highly subjective.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 05:40 PM
Yes, admit that a socialist society would not necessarily be perfect, but then reverse the argument on him. Let him imagine that you lived in a socialist country and you two were discussing the prospects of starting a capitalist society. Imagine all the objections that you would have to a capitalist society&#33; "Wait so, even though there&#39;s more than enough production capability for food some people will still starve because a few rich people can&#39;t make a profit off of it?" "Would influential people in a capitalist society not want to start wars to further their business?", etc.
thats a fucking great way to put things bro. we need more like that.

[Rawthentic]

Yes, thank you comrades, this will all hopefully be effective when the topic comes again. I dont understand why he doesnt get it when its simple why its not utopian. But thanks anyway and they will be put to work. Im glad to know that it is not a utopia, because of it was, I wouldnt fight for it.

[Lenin's Law]

Marxism is clearly not utopia.

Many of the Comrades here have made excellent rebuttals so I will have nothing more to add...except this:

If your father still, stubbornly holds on to his false views on Marxism, you can always tell him, "Dad, remember LENIN&#39;S LAW&#33;" :lol: :lol: :hammer:

[apathy maybe]

It depends on how you define utopia ...


On the specifics of Marxism, well I have to say that it is idealistic at the least.


Originally posted by SovietPants+--> (SovietPants)Well, Marxism is based on Historical Materialism and a materialist analysis of history and society, not an idealist one which is common amongst uptopians.

The basic difference between Utopian and Marxian socialism is:

Utopian: Socialism sounds good so we should all live on a commune and be happy.

Marxist: Socialism is the inevitable result of the class antagonisms inherent to the capitalist mode of production.[/b]Socialism is not the inevitable result of class antagonisms. To try and claim that it is, well that is idealistic, and defiantly not-scientific to my mind.


Originally posted by hastalavictoria+--> (hastalavictoria)Yes&#33; That sounds good, I wonder why I didnt say that in the first place. Thanks anyway. And another thing, he keeps denying that Marx came up with communist theory as a result of decades of scientific research. And he hasnt even read Marx before dry.gif[/b]And as to "decades of scientific research". It depends on how you define "scientific research" and which period of Marx&#39;s writings you are looking at. The early stuff is not the result of decades of any sort of work.


Originally posted by Marijuanarchy
Socialism is not a utopia because utopias are free of problems. Socialism&#39;s focus is merely on creating better social institutions which can deal with problems more fairly, and eliminating the gross inequalities which are the cause of many (but certainly not all) of the problems in capitalist societies. Indeed ...



Originally posted by Dyst
Don&#39;t "preach". Don&#39;t just bring up socialism or communism randomly.
Depends on the people...

Originally posted by Dyst
If you watch the news on TV, and there&#39;s for example something about Africa or Donald Trump, you can bring up the problems with capitalism, rather than talking about communism itself. You can for example bring up how normal working people are robbed every day, because their boss will only give you salary which is lower than what people produce for. Or you can say that the world has enough food to make everyone more than &#39;well fed&#39;, yet because the system divides it so poorly people still go starving.&#39;Round where I am that is considered preaching ... Example, cop kicks Aboriginal bloke to death, yet to be charged (if ever). I call it corruption and get a talking to.

Originally posted by Dyst
Then sooner or later you can bring up the solution to these large problems. The best idea is to try to avoid using words like communism, socialism, anarchism and even marxism. The reason for this is that the media (owned by very rich people) obviously don&#39;t want the people revolting against the rich people, so therefore words like these have often been portrayed negatively. Just say for example that politically, democracy means that everyone should have the same possibilities and influences (though it&#39;s not like that today.) Wouldn&#39;t economic democracy mean that everyone should have the same rights to obtain material goods, and have equal amount of economic influence? Etc.

Then after a while you can explain that that is what marxism is about. I agree with this bit. Especially if the people you are talking to are receptive. I would bother with the Marxism though :P. Anarchy&#33;



[email protected]
He knows of all the horrors of capitalism, he just doesnt accept socialism for what it is. Im not crazy over the fact that he doesnt understand, its just that he brought it up one day so I had to present my views.Ask him what he thinks should be done then. If he doesn&#39;t have an answer, then he should accept that socialism (in the broad sense) is an alternative to capitalism. If he suggests something along the lines of a "more humane" capitalism, then patiently explain why that is a contradiction, like compassionate conservative in the USA.



EL KABLAMO
Utopians believe that a society based on equality will start from people realizing that the current society they live in is "wrong" and immoral, and that a new society based on equality is moral.

Marxists and other revolutionaries on the other hand know that working masses will just get sick of their living conditions and desire better conditions, this doesn&#39;t mean the masses will all of a sudden understand socialist theory. So it&#39;s up to us to present them with this alternative.

If your dad starts talking about how it&#39;s utopian to believe that through Communism we will make society perfect, you should tell him that no where have we stated we are going to make society perfect. If its like him to suggest that anyone who wishes to make a better world is utopian, then everyone should just give up on involved in politics. If you think about it "perfection" doesn&#39;t exist, there just no way of knowing what perfect is, it&#39;s highly subjective.I agree to a certain point with what you have written here. I disagree with the necessity of "us" having to present the alternative. The oppressed will work out a system that leads to less oppression, as members of this group, we will have a say, but the way you phrased it sounded like vanguardism.

[cb9's_unity]

hastalavictoria, i feel youre pain i&#39;m the same age as you and me and my dad get into arguments all the time. my dads an american democrat and when it comes to american policy he&#39;s actually pretty smart but when it comes to socialism he doesn&#39;t have a clue. his arguments don&#39;t make sense at all and i&#39;ve finally come to the conclusion that it&#39;s just not worth arguing with him. at the end of our last political shouting match he out of the blue threatend to ground me?
so yah we should respect our dads and just not bring up socialism anymore. the people we should really be talking politics to our the kids in our schools. there the ones who can make the most difference.

[Rodack]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 04:20 PM
Help me convince my dad comrades that socialism is not a utopia; I have presented concrete evidence why it is not, yet he still thinks it is. I need some, concise, practical information and thoughts to convince him.

The main thing I said which is enough to convince anybody is; " Socialism is not a utopia because its roots lie in capitalist society and the possibility lies in the hands of the working class. Utopias are born out of the blue and have no connection to reality" And he STILL thinks its a utopia. Help me
Socialism is only a Utopia on paper. When Socialism is practiced, things like Human nature get in the way of achieving the Utopian goal, Sometimes force is used in order to obtain a more equitable form of governance by punishing those who dare try to improve their own standard of living over the rules set forth by the governing body. I hope this will help you when explaining this to your father, Comrade ;)

[Hannibal_Barca]

Utopia is nothing more then a personal prospective.
Capitalism is a utopian ..............if your a right wing elite nut bag.

[Lenin's Law]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 07:49 PM
My good advice for you - let your dad to be free from your ideologic pressure. It won&#39;t do much for world revolution. Respect your dad who has given you a life, reared and educated you.
How is "respecting" a loved family member by letting him/her wallow in ignorance? What&#39;s wrong with giving someone political education and opening someone up to socialist ideas they might not have been exposed to before?

If "respecting" means shutting up and letting someone watch Fox News all day without even trying to communicate and raise consciousness then we have two radically different ideas of what respect means.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 27 2006, 10:54 AM
I agree to a certain point with what you have written here. I disagree with the necessity of "us" having to present the alternative. The oppressed will work out a system that leads to less oppression, as members of this group, we will have a say, but the way you phrased it sounded like vanguardism.
I suck at phrasing things. ;)

[sanpal]

Originally posted by Lenin&#39;s Law+Oct 9 2006, 02:24 PM--> (Lenin&#39;s Law @ Oct 9 2006, 02:24 PM)
[email protected] 17 2006, 07:49 PM
My good advice for you - let your dad to be free from your ideologic pressure. It won&#39;t do much for world revolution. Respect your dad who has given you a life, reared and educated you.
How is "respecting" a loved family member by letting him/her wallow in ignorance? [/b]
How to "love" a loved family member by not letting him/her to have their own view, world view, ideology, etc. To be in disagreement is one thing but not let to "wallow in ignorance" is another thing. I think it&#39;s better to have more well-reasoned arguments to protect your own views and to influence by that on somebody&#39;s ideology. If somebody does not agree with your well-reasoned arguments it&#39;s not a fact that he/she will not repeat your arguments in another place at another time to another people.


What&#39;s wrong with giving someone political education and opening someone up to socialist ideas they might not have been exposed to before?
Nothing wrong ... if someone has at least a bit of interest



If "respecting" means shutting up and letting someone watch Fox News all day without even trying to communicate and raise consciousness then we have two radically different ideas of what respect means.

Oh, i&#39;ve to go, sometime later.

[sanpal]

Originally posted by Lenin&#39;s [email protected] 9 2006, 02:24 PM

If "respecting" means shutting up and letting someone watch Fox News all day without even trying to communicate and raise consciousness then we have two radically different ideas of what respect means.
Yeah, you are right, we have different ideas of what respect means. Ten persons have ten ideas of what respect means. Millions of persons have millions ideas of that. This is because every person, every individual is unique. But there is a ..."sum total of "respect" / n - persons", something kinda "general opinion" of what respect means. Here intellect could be added with intuition.

"I Don&#39;t agree with you at all but I respect your (different from mine) opinion" - this phrase is not correct as absolute but partly it is correct. If you wish to help somebody "to be educated" don&#39;t make him/her angry with you. I think in your family you have to feel the "threshold" when to stop convincing.