do you support guerillias funded by crime? - or think its et

[commieboy]

what do you think about like the central american leftist guerillias who pay for their equipment with drug money?

or smaller groups who rob banks and stores for money? do you think they should?

[dsmtuner]

I'd be against it if the stores they rob are with the revolution but I wouldn't be that sad if they are against the revolution.


(Edited by dsmtuner at 5:02 pm on July 4, 2003)

[CienfuegosJnr]

What do you mean the 'Central American' Revolutionary movements?...
As far as I know none of the C.A factions didn't go into Drug running!

the CONTRAS, Americas puppy were the ones into Drug Running!

Even the FMLN in El Salvador didn't even want free aid from Cuba or Nicaragua or other movements (If you consider any one else run on drug money)
FARC in Colombia are into Drugs, but there South America!
Lefty movements in Brazil were known for kidnapping and bank robbery....
And in the C.A movements, when they attacked farms or arsenals, for resources they would target ones owned by people in the Military clique, as the military and the elite were one of the same in C.A !

But in response to the question, you must remember there in the jungles fighting and dieing for a socialist cause!

[Felicia]

I don't support them using drug money to support their movement. They should have better ground work layed out before the insurrection so that they can get weapons by other means than resorting to what the farc has done. But as for bank robbing, ya gotta do what you gotta do. If your revolution is successful then the money will be in the government's (your) hands anyway. Dunno about that one, stealing is stealing but under some circumstances it's ok

[CubanFox]

Quote: from felicia on 1:22 pm on July 4, 2003
I don't support them using drug money to support their movement. They should have better ground work layed out before the insurrection so that they can get weapons by other means than resorting to what the farc has done. But as for bank robbing, ya gotta do what you gotta do. If your revolution is successful then the money will be in the government's (your) hands anyway. Dunno about that one, stealing is stealing but under some circumstances it's ok

Lenin got funds by robbing banks. Stalin was in charge of the raids.

[Red Comrade]

In a place where there is no Soviet Union to back a revolution, and only one superpower, factions have no choice. Sure, in the day the USSR was around they didn't have to, but now there is no way to get money other than drug running. And I support them for that reason.

[commieboy]

i think that if you have a just cause, then you shouldn't have to get money that way. People should be donating, and getting money but not from robbing banks, or kidnapping people, or selling coke. CF, i never knew lenin robbed banks to get cash, thats interesting.

but my friends always make little plans to rob a bank, and fund their anarchist rebellion. But i still think that if your cause is the right one you wont have to resort to crime.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I guarantee you the enemy is not going to cut out a type of funding due to an "ethical issue". Why is it that we should then?

[Sensitive]

Quote: from Red Comrade on 10:11 am on July 4, 2003
In a place where there is no Soviet Union to back a revolution, and only one superpower, factions have no choice. Sure, in the day the USSR was around they didn't have to, but now there is no way to get money other than drug running. And I support them for that reason.
This is my view as well on this matter.

[Mashka]

It depends on what's the concept you hold as "ethics". I personally believe that moral codes are subject to EVOLUTIONAL change. In other words, morals do change...but throughout long periods of times/societies in different circumstances. Hence, I don't believe certain acts are inherently wrong or right. For instance, even though I do agree with abortion on
this thread (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=11&topic=3819&start=20), it doesn't make abortion inherently good or "evil" on my eyes. I think that every different situation classifies deeds as such.

[mentalbunny]

I have no problem with people robbing banks, as long as it's not the co-operative bank because they have an ethical policy (no investing in arms dealers or manufactuers, etc), but they're an internet bank as far as I know so robbing them would be bloody difficult!!!

I don't see the big deal with crimes against property, since "property is theft" but I disagree with kidnapping and the like, unless it's someone really influential, but even then it's not going to give out the right message.

I don't like drug money because of the oppresion that is found in the drug producing industry, opium, cocaine and cannabis growers have a real hard time of it, most of them are addicts themselves as far as I know because they just want to escape the shit of reality. I don't know all the facts and what I know mayb be bullshit but I doubt it, although most of my info came from a Big Issue article that I read and turned me off any drugs that aren't produced by people I know.

[Douche the Bagger]

I dont believe that a guerrilla movement would last very long. It may bring slight success but the nature of dealing drugs is very self destructing and not popular with the inhabitants, a great importance to a revolutionary fight. The group may very quickly be swept out of existance and kills the morale of the people.

[RedComrade]

To be short, sweet, and to the point yes I support guerillas who are funded by crime (or at least for the most part, there is a level of crime at which it is no longer acceptable no matter what the declared objective is), for the most part I think the end is more important then the means.

[RedComrade]

Quote: from Douche the Bagger on 5:43 am on July 11, 2003
I dont believe that a guerrilla movement would last very long. It may bring slight success but the nature of dealing drugs is very self destructing and not popular with the inhabitants, a great importance to a revolutionary fight. The group may very quickly be swept out of existance and kills the morale of the people.


I beg to differ, in Colombia where in many areas the only crop that can be grown at a profit is coca it is very popular with the inhabitants. One of the main things the FARC has going for it is its support of peasants livelihoods even if this means resorting to drug production.

[Douche the Bagger]

Hm. I wasnt aware that coca was one of the few, if any other, profitable crop. Then what about other countries, where it does not grow naturally and go out of the way to control part of the drug market?

[RedComrade]

I dont know if you understood what I meant comrade, it is one of the few crops that can be grown for a profit in that PARTICULAR region. The climate there is suitable for two crops, coffee and coca. Due to a global crisis in the coffee market right now the small scale subsistance coffee growers can no longer produce enough profit to cover the costs of producing the coffee. To avoid being uprooted and forced to move to the city to survive the farmers have resorted to growing coca.

[Kez]

As long as the actions are directed by the party robbing banks is ok, as was the case in Lenins time. However, i dont believe it is correct to make a profit from selling drugs which kill, to fund the rev

[CubanFox]

Or kidnapping for ransom. That just makes the people despise you.

[redstar2000]

Frankly, I think it's a trivial issue.

What revolutionary groups in insurrectionary situations will do to raise funds depends on the details in their particular country...but I don't think there is anything particularly reprehensible about bank robbing, kidnapping members of the upper class for ransom, or selling drugs.

The wealth accumulated in financial institutions was taken from the people; why shouldn't they take it back?

The members of the upper classes are parasites at best and murderous thugs at worse; kidnapping for ransom is the least they should suffer.

The "ill-repute" of certain drugs is racist in origins, unjustified by science, and exists because of a convergence of special interests in advanced capitalist countries, from neo-puritanical religious fundamentalists to a "prison industry" which seeks the unending expansion of "criminally defined behavior" as a source of profit.

It is better to ask what kind of revolution do these people want? than to worry over how it is financed.

:cool:

[Just Joe]

Very, Very, well said.

[mentalbunny]

I still disagree about drugs, unless it can be proved that the rebels' drug money is made in a more humane way than that of the drug barons. I'm talking about the people who have to grow the stuff here, not your average user.

And I disagree that ransoming is effective, as people generally see kidnapping as negative, and the media will always spin it as such, so there are few advantages there, you want the people's support so you have to do things that the people won't mind. If you do rob a bank you've got to make it clear to the people why you're doing that, because it'll be their money in a way, and you've got to say that the money will go where it's needed, rather than just into the pockets of the rebel leaders, which is what the media will try to say, I expect.

[Sabocat]

The RAF in Germany enjoyed (some believe) as much as a 20%-30% approval by the public while they were kidnapping nazi politicians, industrialists, bankers.

Support can be gleaned by this action. Do you think anyone here would care if Kozlowski of Tyco was kidnapped and killed? Everyone knows he was filth.

I have no problem funding a revolution with drug money. The CIA did it for years. As they say...Turn about is Fair Play.

As far as robbery, here in the U$ at least the monies are insured. It seems to me to be a win win situation. You screw the banking institutions, and you screw a federal insurance company. Perfect. As far a robbery of stores, only corporate chains. I would leave the mom and pop stores alone.

[redstar2000]

I don't think revolutionary movements should be overly-concerned with how the capitalist media will "spin" our activities...the spin will always be negative.

I was in a group once where a new member suggested a kidnapping--I squashed the idea at once. Why? First, we lacked the resources to do anything like that. Second, we didn't need the money. Third, because I suspected the new member was a cop trying to set us up...and I was right. The little shit disappeared when his "proposal" was rejected...and was later spotted in uniform in, naturally, a donut shop. (Hilarious, but true.)

Serious criminal activity should be approached with great caution...it doesn't serve your political ends to have a bunch of your people locked up for reasons that will often be perceived as non-political.

And it should never be undertaken on the initiative of people you don't know and know well.

Please don't ever allow yourself to be set up.

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 8:43 pm on July 12, 2003)

[Nobody]

All's fair in love and war folks. You need money for guns and guns to win the revolution, then you steal, run drugs and kidnapped. Better to steal and have an AK, then don't and have a pellet gun.

[commieboy]

Im still against alot of that kidnapping and drugs....im starting to lean towards bank robbery. But thats only if we're in a inusured area....Like America. But kidnapping people like those enron fucks and worldcom would be the best thing ever, and after we get the money fucking blow their heads off! but never just a family that lives in a good neughbor hood.

[Hegemonicretribution]

On the contrary I see the drug situation as a positive one. Why just distribute when you can use your own members to produce as well? That way the producers will be treated fairly, AND it can be a sort of quality control, so your shit is the safest/best out there. You would be doing the public a favour, giving them good drugs. Lets face some will do them regardless, they may as well be safer doing them.

Still lets go for a peaceful revolution;) but the drug money can always be handy.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

It would trouble my conscience to deal drugs, considering how many lives have been ruined by them.

Banks are another matter already. First of all, the banks themselves are part of the exploitation of the capitalist system. So fuck them!! Secondly, the banks here in the US are insured. The workers will be compensated by the government for their loss (no harm, no foul for the proletariat; the state will have less money sitting around to buy missiles with--a win/win situation).

Using some crime to make money is necessary. A couple have suggested that if the rebellion is so righteous the working class should donate to pay the bills. One must remember that the people best represented by the revolution will be working 60 hours a week at Wal-Mart or McDonalds to pay their rent. Many, many workers simply cannot spare a dime.

[commieboy]

im starting to think now...i think to get on a good level with the people. You should pull a robin hood kind of job, rob a bank and then just like throw the cash off a roof of building in a lower class city. so when its televised about that robbery, people who are interviewed will say positive things....and when you rob the bank...be as polite as possible, i'd say use a remote bomb instead of guns....although they work too. But after you give back to the people just think, if you rob a bank people will be more positive and politely give you the money instead of crying because the shotgun being jabbed in their back hurts.

[CubanFox]

It's like Ned Kelly (outlaw in 19th century Australia) when he robbed banks. Back then, morgages were on paper in the bank. So he'd rob the bank and torch morgages to get popular support. Worked like a charm, the people helped him against the authorities.

(Edited by CubanFox at 5:04 am on July 17, 2003)

[commieboy]

Thats what guerilla movements should do...instead of terrorize people be a man or woman of the people. And i think if you rob a bank this would also be a nice touch...just walk down a line of cars and leave dollar bills under the windshield wiper and leave like a symbol of your movement stamped on the bill. Im mostly getting my ideas from the Blink 182 music video for Rockshow...but its still good. But the thing that sucks is that basically the only way we could eliminate debts and stuff like that is to cyber terrorize by eliminating files via internet. or just do the fight club thing and blow up the whole building...but you get all of the workers out so theres no casualties. Just more ideas popping out of my oversized head

[ChiTown Lady]

I didn’t bother to read the rest of this post before I plunged in – I Am crazy busy right now -------

However – I do have an opinion about the title of this topic:

Do you support guerrillas funded by crime?


In this Capitalist Society that I have been living – one persons’ freedom has been defined and a crime “Nationally” and even “Internationally”.

Fuck that whole idea f something being off limits simply because it has officially been deemed “illegal” by the Capitalist establishment.

We are not allowed to have freedom of speech without all that we say being recorded and filed fro later reference. We are not allowed to even download some music without the threat of having our PC’s fucked up remotely by the US government. Did you all know about that one? I promise to post it separately next in case you don’t know.

But the ultimate point is this – whatever is said to be illegal is to protect the Capitalist Establishment and their money. I am down with the plan of taking them down to the ground regardless of what the US Government has to say about the laws.

BUT the answer is No - the "official" Capitalist laws have nothing to do with The Revolution.

Word!

[dopediana]

to be brief, if the "crime" is buying or selling drugs, i find it acceptable, because in the case of the coca, guerrillas, and farmers in colombia, it helps support the farmers who are responding to the demands of the market.

crimes such as kidnapping, murdering, robbing, etc. should only be reciprocated onto those who have done terrible things. all this though should be executed with extreme caution and precision only when the right provisions are available. or else it turns disastrous. but given the option, i'd rather not. reciprocity is not cool in terms of bad things. plus i'm anti-violence.

[commieboy]

but selling people a drug that makes their nose bleed and shrinks their penises isn't in its own way violent? Drugs have no place in a revolution....Mao insisted that his fighters rid themselvs of opium addictions. I think that certain drugs are okay...like marijuana, but cocaine is really bad...my aunt did a lil too much in the eighties...she fucking cant even talk now without drooling all over herslef. Because anyway you try and make your self look good afiliating yourself with drugs is never good. especially hard stuff like coke.

[dopediana]

you're not comprehending me. i'm not condoning drug use. i'm saying that these farmers are at an incredible economic and social disadvantage. in colombia, they have no voice and no money, both of which are essential to eke out a living. being farmers, and poor farmers at that, they will grow what sells. they are part of the global market. they will do whatever it takes to survive. coca and opium poppy is what sells best. therefore they grow it and sell it. guerrillas and paras and the government alike take the plants to be refined into usable drugs and use the proceeds to fund their military movements. however, it's a huge cycle and it comes back to haunt the farmers through US funded anti-drug movements when drug money is funding the army's firepower. guerrillas provide an outlet for their loyal villages and use the money for their arms. that's how it happens in colombia. and if you want to end the drug problem, create a better market than coca.

[commieboy]

lets have toad farms! the people can come lick them, get high for about an hour then they drop dead from the toxins! its a perfect plan!

[Kapitan Andrey]

commieboy...I think, that you are speaking about FARC!!!

I hate them! They are calling themselves revolutioneers, but they are narco-bandits!!!

I told, that 10000....times!

[Felicia]

HEY!!!! Welcome back Andrey!!!! I was really missing your english! :cheesy:

[ChiTown Lady]

Quote: from commieboy on 8:08 am on July 17, 2003
but selling people a drug that makes their nose bleed and shrinks their penises isn't in its own way violent? Drugs have no place in a revolution....Mao insisted that his fighters rid themselvs of opium addictions. I think that certain drugs are okay...like marijuana, but cocaine is really bad...my aunt did a lil too much in the eighties...she fucking cant even talk now without drooling all over herslef. Because anyway you try and make your self look good afiliating yourself with drugs is never good. especially hard stuff like coke.


Why would someone “in their right mind” want to do drugs that are going to shrink their penis? Lord have mercy – I hope I NEVER go out with anyone who has done THAT! :lol

But seriously – cocaine is a nasty drug, and I would never Sell, Buy or DO that one – I have known people who have been addicted to that shit and they went through a whole personality change on that stuff – a personality change that made them start acting like too confident in themselves while at the same time they were acting particularly stupid. I don’t know if you know what I mean by that, but they turned into people who were not very nice to be around where previously they were pretty nice people. Fro this reason I specifically don’t like that shit at all.

At the same time – of course I would think that we would NOT want to be selling HARD drugs to the populous for the purpose of waging war against this Capitalist government – cuz if we were to do that we would not only have an army of brain-dead zombies addicted to these drugs, but we would also be no better than the Capitalists we are fighting since we too would be guilty of Capitalizing on someone else’s weaknesses. This is not the answer to the problem.

Weed on the other hand is not a drug (it is an herb) and weed is also not addictive in the way “true” chemically based drugs are. I wish people would STOP referring it Marijuana as a drug. It grows naturally, and the usage of this herb is in it’s natural state – not processed chemically (unless we are talking about hashish, which is cooked to be more concentrated). But most pot smokers are only smoking the natural plant, as it has been grown. Which I might add is not the case with most tobacco smokers since what is sold on the “legal” Capitalist market has been tainted and mixed with one chemical or another to make it more addictive than it would have been if it were in it’s purest “natural” form. This is true – check it.

There are many ways of getting money for staging a revolution – I suppose. I’m sure we can collectively come up with some feasible means of raising money toward this end. But MOST importantly we need to be educating the people, because without the people behind the insurrection it will NEVER work – NEVER.

However, the WHOLE idea of staging a revolution would be deemed “illegal” in this Capitalist society, so the entire idea of asking a question about whether one would be down with a plan to stage a revolution by “illegal” means it a mute point – isn’t it?

Any plan for Revolution would be done by “illegal” means – just by virtue of waging war against the establishment in a revolutionary way – as such.


(Edited by ChiTown Lady at 4:41 am on July 22, 2003)

[dopediana]

Quote: from commieboy on 11:14 pm on July 18, 2003
lets have toad farms! the people can come lick them, get high for about an hour then they drop dead from the toxins! its a perfect plan!




oh come on. we humans aren't THAT stupid...... :cheesy:

[commieboy]

actually alot are, there were reports of some US students going to south america and licking the backs of toads. They do get you high, but are deadly an hour afterwords....

[ChiTown Lady]

Quote: from the amaryllis on 2:20 pm on July 22, 2003

Quote: from commieboy on 11:14 pm on July 18, 2003
lets have toad farms! the people can come lick them, get high for about an hour then they drop dead from the toxins! its a perfect plan!




oh come on. we humans aren't THAT stupid...... :cheesy:


I know many humans who are pretty damned stupid. You mean to say you have NEVER experienced interacting and/or even trying to hold a simple conversation with a Stupid Human before?

Humans are ridiculously stupid – just look at the degenerated state that this planet is in. And who is responsible for that?

Stupid Humans are responsible for the degenerated state of the planet.

[CienfuegosJnr]

Sorry to butt in-
-Yes I agree people are stupid...

-Marijuana isn't the 'pure' drug... It's sent people Iknow, including me to the nut house .... and makes people turn into social bums and make people think there really cool, when there just cocks!

-When people get kidnaped in Latin America its people that pay there workers $3 a day any way, and its probably the best way to make them leave the country (short of terrorism, which isn't a good idea!).....

-But there should bee another way to get funded, as I do feal it goes against social principal, but what if drugs were legal, then they would need the colombian high lands to grow cocoa!