Gays in "Eurabia"

[adenoid hynkel]

Gays in 'Eurabia'

by Richard J. Rosendall

First published in Bay Windows on March 30, 2006.

Four years after the assassination of gay Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn, his warning of the threat posed to the rights of European gays and women by intolerant, anti-assimilationist Muslim immigrants is increasingly vindicated by events.

Muslims have migrated in large numbers to Europe, have more children than ethnic Europeans, are disproportionately involved in crime, and increasingly insist on being governed not by the prevailing civil laws but by Muslim Shari'ah law. Many Muslim clerics in Europe look to the day when Europe will become a Muslim caliphate. Scholar Bat Ye'or has dubbed that future Europe “Eurabia.” Already, Muslim leaders in France, Britain, Denmark, and Belgium have declared certain Muslim neighborhoods to be under Islamic jurisdiction.

A prime target of Fortuyn's criticism was the European establishment, a mutually reinforcing collection of political, academic, and media elites who are given far more deference by the public than in America, and who are largely accountable only to themselves. A new book by gay author Bruce Bawer, While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam Is Destroying the West from Within, describes how these elites, with their lax immigration policies, welfare subsidies, politically correct suppression of dissent, and collaboration with Arab governments, have imperiled the very freedom and tolerance in whose name they deny the problem.

Bawer describes private Islamic academies, subsidized by European governments, that teach hatred of Jews and America and contempt for democracy. Muslim children are frequently sent to Qur'anic schools in their parents' home countries to cleanse them of Western ideas. Muslim girls are forced into marriages with men from the homeland, who are then allowed to immigrate, reinforcing Muslim separation from European society. Girls who date outside approved circles, stay out all night, or marry contrary to their families' wishes, are routinely murdered in so-called honor killings, as are rape victims.

A judge of the Shari'ah Court of the UK signed a death order against Terence McNally for depicting Jesus Christ (who is revered in Islam) as gay in his play Corpus Christi. Muslim gangs commit savage assaults on busy streets while crowds look on passively. Researchers don't dare gather statistics on the rise in gay-bashings lest they be seen as criticizing Muslims. Describing his awakening to the threat, Bawer wrote, “Pat Robertson just wanted to deny me marriage; the imams wanted to drop a wall on me.” If current trends continue, European imams will have the votes to do it in a few generations.

Bawer writes:

Fortuyn's opponents claimed that he called for an end to immigration and the expulsion of Muslims from the Netherlands. What he proposed, in fact, was a firm policy of education, emancipation, and integration. The Dutch government, he argued, should stop issuing residency permits to imams who preached that Dutch women are whores and gay men lower than pigs….

For this, officials demonized Fortuyn as a fascist bigot, ignoring the majority of Dutch citizens who shared his concerns. Rather than face the danger portended by Moroccans in one Dutch town dancing in the streets on 9/11, and a mosque selling calendars showing the New York skyline on fire, Dutch officials pilloried Fortuyn as the dangerous one.

As Bawer reports on his blog, on February 10 in Oslo, Velbjørn Selbekk, a magazine editor who had reprinted the Muhammad cartoons from the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten, and who had withstood pressure from Muslim extremists and the Norwegian establishment for several days, suddenly appeared at a press conference beside the head of Norway's Islamic Council and abjectly apologized. In response, the Muslim leader pledged his protection, and Norway's foreign minister praised Selbekk's “integrity and courage.” The death threats against him and his family had apparently taken their toll. Submissive infidels are known as dhimmis, a role tacitly embraced by those Westerners who call any criticism of Muslims racist.

Fortunately, some are refusing to surrender. On March 25 in Trafalgar Square, British gay rights activist Peter Tatchell, a self-described “left-wing Green,” joined a crowd including humanists, libertarians and liberal Muslims in a rally to defend freedom of expression. The organizers stated, “The strength and survival of free society and the advance of human knowledge depend on the free exchange of ideas. All ideas are capable of giving offence….” Notwithstanding such progressive aims, the rally was denounced by many on the left.

Tatchell wrote:

Sections of the left moan that the rally is being supported [by] the right. Well, if these socialists object so strongly why don't they organise their own demo in support of free speech? The truth is that some of the left would rarely, if ever, rally to defend freedom of expression because they don't wholeheartedly believe in it. Mired in the immoral morass of cultural relativism, they no longer endorse Enlightenment values and universal human rights. Their support for free speech is now qualified by so many ifs and buts. When push comes to shove, it is more or less worthless.

Unilateral disengagement leads not to peace but to subjugation. If the Enlightenment values that made the gay rights movement possible are to be preserved and extended, the heirs of those values need to overcome their post-colonial reluctance to fight for them. We write our own destinies. Nothing is guaranteed to us. As T.E. Lawrence said blasphemously to his Arab friends 90 years ago, “Nothing is written.”


http://www.indegayforum.org/topics/show/27348.html


DISCUSS...............................

[Revolucion Compadre]

I really don't understand the "fear" of being politically correct when it comes to Muslims and Islam. If you go to Saudi Arabia and your a woman, your made to wear special garment, if you go live there or something you must live under their laws. So how do these Muslims dare want to change laws in Europe?

I got really mad, when in the World Cup in Germany, all the flags of the countries participating were put next to a seminaked woman in a poster, then some Muslims demanded that it be taken down and not show the flags of Saudi Arabia and Iran or else they would attack or something, and the Germans decided to take it down. This can't be allowed, this is where they are winning. I would have said fuck you you are in Germany and your Islamic laws will applay yo yourself not be imposed upon us.

It makes me really mad.

[Black Dagger]

adenoid hynkel, is this article meant to be taken seriously or sarcastically? Because it reads like an anti-muslim propaganda piece, sensationalist, alarmist etc. 'oh noes the evil muslims are gonna destroy europe!' :o

[theraven]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 14 2006, 03:27 AM
adenoid hynkel, is this article meant to be taken seriously or sarcastically? Because it reads like an anti-muslim propaganda piece, sensationalist, alarmist etc. 'oh noes the evil muslims are gonna destroy europe!' :o
is it senstlaitoanist if its true?

[Raisa]

But its okay when Europeans culture is embraced all over the world because it is "progressive" and "modern".

No one likes a taste of their own medicine.

[theraven]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 07:01 AM
But its okay when Europeans culture is embraced all over the world because it is "progressive" and "modern".

No one likes a taste of their own medicine.
so:

a) you support europe pushing its ideals on the rest of the world and islam pushing its ideals ont he rest of the orld
or
b) support neither doing so

if a) then why complian about europe, if b) then what do you disargee with?

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 14 2006, 03:27 AM
adenoid hynkel, is this article meant to be taken seriously or sarcastically? Because it reads like an anti-muslim propaganda piece, sensationalist, alarmist etc. 'oh noes the evil muslims are gonna destroy europe!' :o
Although SOME of the statements in this article are lies, many of them have a dose of truth.

The point is simple; the majority of muslims have a different culture than us; in the most muslim countries homosexuals are harshly punished; in some of them , they are executed. Women obviously have few rights in these countries, for example if an unmarried woman loses her virginity, she is considered a social outcast, a disgrace to the family; in some cases she is even killed in so-called "honor-killings".

Offcourse some leftists say that these "ultra-conservative" views are not shared by all the muslims; although I have to admit that I am not an expert in muslim culture, I must say that my personal experiences with muslims have shown me that the majority of muslims share these views.

One other question which can be addressed to those who support that these "ultra-conservative" views are not shared by all the muslims, is this; aren't many of the leaders in muslim countries democratically elected? Let's take for example the president of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad; he is the man whose goverment executed two ADOLESCENT gay children. His government withdrew the few liberal reforms of the former president Khatami, bringing back to Iran the "pure spirit" of the original Islamic revolution of 1979. But this man was democratically elected. Doesn't this mean that the majority of the Iranian people( who VOTED for him) endorse his "ultra-conservative" agenda? Doesn't this mean that a big muslim population in Europe would use their political power ( their vote for example) in order to force these ultra-conservative policies in Europe? If we take into consideration the fact that the muslim population in Europe grows much more quickly than the european population( higher birthrates), isn't it obvious that the danger is realistic?
Offcourse the danger is not visible NOW. It is obvious that there won't be a muslim majority in Europe in the next 50-60 years. But what about after 2 or 3 generations?

Please if you disagree with what I say instead of answering with name-calling answer with arguments.

The questions are these;
1) Is the danger that massive muslim immigration will lead in "muslim" policies being enforced in Europe a REALISTIC danger? Or is it not? And why?
2) Do we want this kind of policies in European countries?

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 07:01 AM
But its okay when Europeans culture is embraced all over the world because it is "progressive" and "modern".

No one likes a taste of their own medicine.
If by European culture you mean not stoning people to death because of their sexuality, not treating worse than shit women who do not want to wear the "hijab" or the "niqab", not banning EVERYTHING "un-Islamic"( music, art, political thought etc.) then yes I believe that "its okay when Europeans culture is embraced all over the world"'.

Offcourse I did NEVER say that I support the so-called " crusade for democracy" in Middle East by Mr. Bush.

But anyway if you enjoy so much the muslim culture you are free to wear your "burqa" and go to Saudi Arabia.

[greymatter]

Do you think it is possible to assimilate muslim immigrants into european society? Can modern values like atheism and universal human rights be disseminated into immigrant populations, or should immigration be restricted (or possibly eliminated)? What do you guys think?

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 04:53 PM
Do you think it is possible to assimilate muslim immigrants into european society? Can modern values like atheism and universal human rights be disseminated into immigrant populations, or should immigration be restricted (or possibly eliminated)? What do you guys think?
If you have evidence that assimilation works, please show this evidence.
If also you have in mind any particular strategy of assimilation and you have evidence that this specific strategy of assimilation brings the wanted results, please inform us.

[Phalanx]

Of course assimilation can work! But when states set up racist laws deliberately blocking immigrants into mainstream society, it's only natural that among a group of generally poorer people you'll have a rise in extremism.

The essay in general was xenophobic and ignorant to the actual problem. Do you actually think European Muslims want to live in poverty? The blame rests entirely on the shoulders of the European governments.

[adenoid hynkel]

Of course assimilation can work!

Any proof?


But when states set up racist laws deliberately blocking immigrants into mainstream society, it's only natural that among a group of generally poorer people you'll have a rise in extremism.

I would understand that mistreatment of muslims by the british goverment would lead in extremism against the British state. How is extremism against women and gays related to this subject?
Your argument is that muslims are conservative because they are poor. I agree that poverty might be ONE factor which leads them to conservatism, but I think that there are also MANY more cultural factors which lead them to conservatism.
For example, if I am not mistaken, Saudi Arabia is a wealthy country. Does its wealth make her more "progressive" than the rest muslim countries? I think not.


Do you actually think European Muslims want to live in poverty?

I guess that you have some reading disabilities; neither I nor the author of this article or anybody else said that European Muslims want to live in poverty.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by adenoid hynkel+Aug 14 2006, 11:18 AM--> (adenoid hynkel @ Aug 14 2006, 11:18 AM)
[email protected] 14 2006, 07:01 AM
But its okay when Europeans culture is embraced all over the world because it is "progressive" and "modern".

No one likes a taste of their own medicine.
If by European culture you mean not stoning people to death because of their sexuality, not treating worse than shit women who do not want to wear the "hijab" or the "niqab", not banning EVERYTHING "un-Islamic"( music, art, political thought etc.) then yes I believe that "its okay when Europeans culture is embraced all over the world"'.

Offcourse I did NEVER say that I support the so-called " crusade for democracy" in Middle East by Mr. Bush.

But anyway if you enjoy so much the muslim culture you are free to wear your "burqa" and go to Saudi Arabia. [/b]
Hahahahaha, I dont have a burqua.
Second of all, it is not necisary to wear a burqua.
Third of all the burqa is not "muslim culture" it is an "interpretation".
It doesnt say cover you face.......

You probably dont even know which way a Quran is opened.
Fourth of all. I am not cool with religious fundamentalism.
I was making a statement in response to the way your article was written.
Muslim people are not taking over Europe. It was a sensational article.


Most of the delicious European Desserts can be attributed to imperialism. I just think its funny that a continent that ONLY HAS WHAT IT HAS FOR FUCKING THE WORLD, is afraid of being taken over.
Who'da thought.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by adenoid [email protected] 14 2006, 07:48 PM

I would understand that mistreatment of muslims by the british goverment would lead in extremism against the British state. How is extremism against women and gays related to this subject?

I think thats half stupid.

There are some muslims that are crazy at gay people, and women.
Im not sure that can even be attributed to Islam entirely.

Are you justifying descriminating against a whole group based on extremists?
If you are, I dont think you have any place here at all.

[Urban Rubble]

Third of all the burqa is not "muslim culture" it is an "interpretation".
It doesnt say cover you face.......

:rolleyes:

It says to cover your fucking head. Not much of a difference.


Fourth of all. I am not cool with religious fundamentalism.

Believing in a book such as the Qua'ran (or the Bible, or the Torah) is religious fundementalism.


Most of the delicious European Desserts can be attributed to imperialism. I just think its funny that a continent that ONLY HAS WHAT IT HAS FOR FUCKING THE WORLD, is afraid of being taken over.

Speaking of sensationalism........

[QUOTE]There are some muslims that are crazy at gay people, and women.
QUOTE]

Shit, I should've used to rolling eyes smiley here.....

You're right Raisa, not all Muslims are "crazy at" gay people and women. Sure, some of them think gays should be stoned to death, but some of them only think that they should be considered abominations! And sure, some of them think women should be subservient to men, but.....oh wait, all of them think that. At least, the ones that actually believe in what their "prophets" wrote.

[Raisa]

"Believing in a book such as the Qua'ran (or the Bible, or the Torah) is religious fundementalism."

I think things need to be applied to the times becasue ever since the garden of eden aka the agricultural revolution, the times change with our system we aquire our food in.
You cant use a feudal mentality to live against a devil that works through a capitalist system. SO no, Urban Rubble, I do not believe in religious fundamentalism.

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by Raisa+Aug 14 2006, 09:45 PM--> (Raisa @ Aug 14 2006, 09:45 PM)
Originally posted by adenoid [email protected] 14 2006, 11:18 AM

[email protected] 14 2006, 07:01 AM
But its okay when Europeans culture is embraced all over the world because it is "progressive" and "modern".

No one likes a taste of their own medicine.
If by European culture you mean not stoning people to death because of their sexuality, not treating worse than shit women who do not want to wear the "hijab" or the "niqab", not banning EVERYTHING "un-Islamic"( music, art, political thought etc.) then yes I believe that "its okay when Europeans culture is embraced all over the world"'.

Offcourse I did NEVER say that I support the so-called " crusade for democracy" in Middle East by Mr. Bush.

But anyway if you enjoy so much the muslim culture you are free to wear your "burqa" and go to Saudi Arabia.
Hahahahaha, I dont have a burqua.
Second of all, it is not necisary to wear a burqua.
Third of all the burqa is not "muslim culture" it is an "interpretation".
It doesnt say cover you face.......

You probably dont even know which way a Quran is opened.
Fourth of all. I am not cool with religious fundamentalism.
I was making a statement in response to the way your article was written.
Muslim people are not taking over Europe. It was a sensational article.


Most of the delicious European Desserts can be attributed to imperialism. I just think its funny that a continent that ONLY HAS WHAT IT HAS FOR FUCKING THE WORLD, is afraid of being taken over.
Who'da thought. [/b]
First of all I did not say that I am "afraid of Europe being taken over". I said that I do not want religious fundamentalism in Europe; I couldn't care less if this religious fundamentalism derives from white european born-again christians or from muslim middle-easterns.

Second, please stop presenting the Europeans as the only people who have fucked the world. How do you think your beloved Islam spread in all the North Africa and even in Spain? With......love and peace?
How do you think that the muslim Turks came from Mongolia to the Balkans? Did you know that many European peoples( Slavs, Bulgarians, Albanians, Greeks, Romanians) were under Turkish occupation for more than 400 years? Do you know anything about the Armenian genocide performed by the Turks?
Did you know that Arab muslims also had black slaves?

[Sentinel]

As opposed as I am to religion and backwards views to sexuality caused by it (veryveryvery opposed), I don't think anyone should take the fear mongering of the murdered right-wing populist Fortuyn seriously.

The west is not being conquered by muslims and their traditions, like the article seems to imply. Obviously it's the other way around, immigrants are prone to adapt the ways of their new country if not in the first, in the second generation.

There are inevitable conflicts when cultures meet, and any homophopic or sexist violence must be fought back. But these are not nearly as big a threat to for example western gay people as that from native ultrarightists.

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 11:09 AM
As opposed as I am to religion and backwards views to sexuality caused by it (veryveryvery opposed), I don't think anyone should take the fear mongering of the murdered right-wing populist Fortuyn seriously.

The west is not being conquered by muslims and their traditions, like the article seems to imply. Obviously it's the other way around, immigrants are prone to adapt the ways of their new country if not in the first, in the second generation.

There are inevitable conflicts when cultures meet, and any homophopic or sexist violence must be fought back. But these are not nearly as big a threat to for example western gay people as that from native ultrarightists.
My few personal experiences would make me believe that many immgrants are not prone to adapt the ways of their new country; but if you have any evidence, links, statistics etc. proving the opposite, feel free to post them.

[An archist]

Pim Fortuyn wasn't assassinated because he was gay and he wasn't assassinated by a muslim.

He was assassinated by a left win activist because he was rightwing and tehre was a big chance he might be elected.
Just thought I'd point that out

[Revolucion Compadre]

He was assassinated by a left win activist because he was rightwing and tehre was a big chance he might be elected.
Just thought I'd point that out

Does it make a difference if he was killed by a muslim because he was gay? Actually the killer, Volkert van der Graaf , was an animal activist, and Fortuyn had said many times he wasn't either leftist nor right wing.

[Wanted Man]

AA is right. As for the rest of the article, all I can say is: fuck off, Fortuynist prick! What the hell do these assholes know about Dutch society, Dutch politics, and the condition of immigrants here? They not only use spin, they also use blatant lies.


are disproportionately involved in crime
Gee, no kidding? Of course, that has nothing to do with them being stuck into ghetto-like conditions, leading to whole "black neighbourhoods" and "black schools". Is that their fault? :huh:


and increasingly insist on being governed not by the prevailing civil laws but by Muslim Shari'ah law.
Admittedly, here in the northern Netherlands there aren't nearly as many muslims as there are in the big cities in the west, so I might be behind on things, but still, I think I can say quite safely that we are not quite in danger of being governed by Shari'ah law!


Scholar Bat Ye'or has dubbed that future Europe “Eurabia.”
For some reason, I do not think that I should take seriously a woman who has said that Europe is the victim of a French-led conspiracy to turn Europeans into servile bootlickers of Islam. :rolleyes:


Already, Muslim leaders in France, Britain, Denmark, and Belgium have declared certain Muslim neighborhoods to be under Islamic jurisdiction.
And to what extent is this actually being enforced?


lax immigration policies
You've got to be shitting me. I don't have the stats for the Netherlands, France and Britain at hand, but I know that Denmark and Belgium, at least, have actually tightened their immigrant policies, and that people like Filip DeWinter(another hero of these "gay rights activists"???) are ignoring this to further their own agenda.


welfare subsidies
Maybe the cutting of these is more problematic.


politically correct suppression of dissent
Yes, because the biggest newspapers constantly writing about "Eurabia" and "the church of leftism"(I'm not a member - it was abolished by Mao during the cultural revolution!) is really "politically correct suppression of dissent". What a dumbass.


collaboration with Arab governments
Choo-choo, here comes the Nederlandse Spoorwegen clue-train bringing you a little factoid about the Netherlands: every government has cowardly endorsement the USA and Israel in all their endeavours! No matter if it's "politically supporting" the Iraq War or saying "we need a ceasefire" in the Lebanon conflict, the message is always the same: no actual resistance to imperialism and zionism!


Bawer describes private Islamic academies, subsidized by European governments, that teach hatred of Jews and America and contempt for democracy.
I am actually against Islamic schools, but that should be applied to ALL religious schools! Nevermind that the Dutch government still funds the most reactionary Christian schools under the guise of "freedom of religion". Anyway, I do not see a problem with schools teaching "hatred of Jews and America and contempt for democracy" if "normal" schools use the same kind of indoctrination to further their political goals. That doesn't mean that I approve of Islamic teachings, I'm just saying that the door swings both ways.


Muslim children are frequently sent to Qur'anic schools in their parents' home countries to cleanse them of Western ideas.
Well, if we're so for civil liberties, we can't really prevent them from travelling, can we? :-/


Muslim girls are forced into marriages with men from the homeland, who are then allowed to immigrate, reinforcing Muslim separation from European society. Girls who date outside approved circles, stay out all night, or marry contrary to their families' wishes, are routinely murdered in so-called honor killings, as are rape victims.
I do not see how anti-Islamic legislation can keep people who live close to each other from killing each other. I would also dispute that honor killings happen "routinely", but maybe that's just me.


A judge of the Shari'ah Court of the UK signed a death order against Terence McNally for depicting Jesus Christ (who is revered in Islam) as gay in his play Corpus Christi.
Point being? :huh:


Muslim gangs commit savage assaults on busy streets while crowds look on passively.
Nazist gangs commit savage assaults on Muslims on busy streets while crowds look on passively.


Researchers don't dare gather statistics on the rise in gay-bashings lest they be seen as criticizing Muslims.
Au contraire, I think they're pretty well-documented.


Describing his awakening to the threat, Bawer wrote, “Pat Robertson just wanted to deny me marriage; the imams wanted to drop a wall on me.”
Take your head out of your ass, Bawer! You think that if Christian homophobic sentiment is allowed to develop unchecked, just because it does not pose a physical threat to you at the moment(I would dispute that), it will never get worse??? Dipshit.


If current trends continue, European imams will have the votes to do it in a few generations.
Yes, because all Muslims form a unified bloc bent towards only one purpose: dominating European parliaments. Except that, umm, they don't. Oops. What an idiot! In the Dutch parliament, no Muslim parties currently have any seats. And of course, Muslims themselves are divided.


Fortuyn's opponents claimed that he called for an end to immigration and the expulsion of Muslims from the Netherlands.
True.


What he proposed, in fact, was a firm policy of education, emancipation, and integration.
Lie.


The Dutch government, he argued, should stop issuing residency permits to imams who preached that Dutch women are whores and gay men lower than pigs….
Then maybe the Dutch government should also have kicked Theo van Gogh out of his house for consistently using the term "goatfuckers" to refer to all Muslims and stating that he hoped that some social-democrat politician got cancer.


For this, officials demonized Fortuyn as a fascist bigot,
Well, they tried, anyway. They were hardly successful, and after the elections they had no problems at all with governing together with his party(of course, that government fell after 3 months, because Fortuyn's whole party was full of unstable nutjobs).


ignoring the majority of Dutch citizens who shared his concerns.
Lie. Both before and after Fortuyn's death, his party had no hope of actually getting the majority of votes, allowing them to rule the country on their own. This is the case for all Dutch parties, it's part of Dutch politics: no party has ever reached a majority, they always have to form governing coalitions!


Rather than face the danger portended by Moroccans in one Dutch town dancing in the streets on 9/11, and a mosque selling calendars showing the New York skyline on fire, Dutch officials pilloried Fortuyn as the dangerous one.
Which he was.


As Bawer reports on his blog, on February 10 in Oslo, Velbjørn Selbekk, a magazine editor who had reprinted the Muhammad cartoons from the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten, and who had withstood pressure from Muslim extremists and the Norwegian establishment for several days, suddenly appeared at a press conference beside the head of Norway's Islamic Council and abjectly apologized. In response, the Muslim leader pledged his protection, and Norway's foreign minister praised Selbekk's “integrity and courage.” The death threats against him and his family had apparently taken their toll. Submissive infidels are known as dhimmis, a role tacitly embraced by those Westerners who call any criticism of Muslims racist.
In this paragraph we see the vile hatred of the new European fascism against anything that stands in its way. Just like to the Phelps clan, those who defend gay rights are "fag enablers". Just like how the Germans, during the occupation of the Netherlands, would severely punish those who hid Jews, or how they would massacre towns which had the bad luck of being the hometowns of resistance fighters who had just murdered Nazis. Anybody who does not take the new "national threat" that the fascists use to justify their bullshit seriously, is either a part of the threat, or is acting submissively and servile to it. We are all dhimmis!


Fortunately, some are refusing to surrender. On March 25 in Trafalgar Square, British gay rights activist Peter Tatchell, a self-described “left-wing Green,” joined a crowd including humanists, libertarians and liberal Muslims in a rally to defend freedom of expression. The organizers stated, “The strength and survival of free society and the advance of human knowledge depend on the free exchange of ideas. All ideas are capable of giving offence….” Notwithstanding such progressive aims, the rally was denounced by many on the left.
In bold, we see the usual suspects. All the "progressives" who will side with fascism, especially under the guise of freedom of expression and gay rights. If we are "dhimmis", maybe those "liberal Muslims" are just Uncle Toms.


Sections of the left moan that the rally is being supported [by] the right. Well, if these socialists object so strongly why don't they organise their own demo in support of free speech? The truth is that some of the left would rarely, if ever, rally to defend freedom of expression because they don't wholeheartedly believe in it. Mired in the immoral morass of cultural relativism, they no longer endorse Enlightenment values and universal human rights. Their support for free speech is now qualified by so many ifs and buts. When push comes to shove, it is more or less worthless.
So? I agree, free speech and human rights are not universal.


Unilateral disengagement leads not to peace but to subjugation. If the Enlightenment values that made the gay rights movement possible are to be preserved and extended, the heirs of those values need to overcome their post-colonial reluctance to fight for them. We write our own destinies. Nothing is guaranteed to us. As T.E. Lawrence said blasphemously to his Arab friends 90 years ago, “Nothing is written.”
Ah.

[Sentinel]

Originally posted by adenoid hynkel
My few personal experiences would make me believe that many immgrants are not prone to adapt the ways of their new country; but if you have any evidence, links, statistics etc. proving the opposite, feel free to post them.

Links? Statistics?

I'm from a multicultural ghetto in stockholm. My entire life is evidence enough. I'm queer, and it's from the ultrarightists and other white morons I've been receiving shit my entire life, not from muslims.

The true muslims basically keep their oppression within the family. I would take the kids of those who teach that crap to them away from them if I could, but before the revolution that's not an option.

I know that had I grown up in a practising muslim family, I propably wouldn't be out of the 'closet' yet (at 25) and would feel like shit, but that's not the point. What I'm saying is that the immigration rate doesn't have shit to do with queer emancipation and rights.

Accepting immigrants from muslim countries to the west, on the contrary, gives their queer children the opportunity to escape from the hell of superstitious traditions and family values.

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by Sentinel+Aug 15 2006, 05:41 PM--> (Sentinel @ Aug 15 2006, 05:41 PM)
adenoid hynkel
My few personal experiences would make me believe that many immgrants are not prone to adapt the ways of their new country; but if you have any evidence, links, statistics etc. proving the opposite, feel free to post them.

Links? Statistics?

I'm from a multicultural ghetto in stockholm. My entire life is evidence enough. I'm queer, and it's from the ultrarightists and other white morons I've been receiving shit my entire life, not from muslims.

The true muslims basically keep their oppression within the family. I would take the kids of those who teach that crap to them away from them if I could, but before the revolution that's not an option.

I know that had I grown up in a practising muslim family, I propably wouldn't be out of the 'closet' yet (at 25) and would feel like shit, but that's not the point. What I'm saying is that the immigration rate doesn't have shit to do with queer emancipation and rights.

Accepting immigrants from muslim countries to the west, on the contrary, gives their queer children the opportunity to escape from the hell of superstitious traditions and family values. [/b]
Sentinel, as I have said taking into consideration the fact that muslims have very high birthrates, there is a possibility that in the future there will be a muslim majority in some European countries.

In the democratic system the majority decides which party will run the country, and so indirectly the majority RULES. What kind of parties do you think a European muslim majority would vote for? If the Iranian muslims vote for Ahmadinejad, what makes you think that the European muslims would vote for a more progressive politician?

I guess that the muslims keep their oppression within the family, because NOW, like all the immigrants, they are in a defensive position. All immigrants, all MINORITIES behave very carefully because they are afraid that, AT ANY TIME, they might be "punished" by the majority.

Imagine yourself being part of a minority; you are always afraid that if you do something bad, the WHOLE minority will be condemned/ridiculed/punished COLLECTIVELY for your actions. The other members of the minority also threaten you. They tell you'' don't you dare to do something bad. If you do something bad, we will all pay for your mistake".

So as I said muslims, like every other minority, are afraid to act openly now. But what will happen when they will become a majority, or even a LARGE minority?
Are you sure that they will not act in the same way that the muslim majorities in Middle East act right now? If the answer is YES, please explain why.

[YSR]

As a sidenote to all this racism: Adenoid hynkel, your political statement says that you're a nihilist. Is that true?

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by Young Stupid [email protected] 15 2006, 06:22 PM
As a sidenote to all this racism: Adenoid hynkel, your political statement says that you're a nihilist. Is that true?
What does nihilism mean? I put it in my political statement just because it sounds cool.

[Loknar]

Muslims are a problem. They can not successfully integrate into western society.

I didnt realize this until the Danish cartoons were published. If Muslims had the chance, they would take away your freedom of speech if they had the ability (so you couldnt insult Mohammed). If I was living in the Netherlands Id be pretty pissed off about these Muslims killing my politicans and film makers because they are Gay or because they exercise their rights to make a critical movie about Islam.

Becuase EUrope wants to be liberally and nice and cry and moal about the 'poor muslims' nothin will be done until its too late. When fundamentalist Muslims are 50% of the population what will you do?

Honestly, Id I were lving in Europe Id demand a ban on Immigration and deport the radical muslims. These Muslims are stupid pesants from North Africa listening to their intolerant religious leaders.

And frankly, European and Asian civilization(s) are FAR superior to Arabic/Islamic civilization. At one time the Muslims were great, but they have desended into crazyiness.

before the cartoons were published in Denmark, I would never had said this.

And I honestly hope the day comes that the European Union has the balls to ban immigration from Islamic countries.

[Urban Rubble]

I think things need to be applied to the times becasue ever since the garden of eden aka the agricultural revolution, the times change with our system we aquire our food in.
You cant use a feudal mentality to live against a devil that works through a capitalist system. SO no, Urban Rubble, I do not believe in religious fundamentalism.

I really have no idea what any of that meant. Explain in simpler terms?

Why is the Garden of Eden also known as the Agricultural Revolution?

What does the way we acquire our food have to do with any of this?

What does a feudal mentality and fighting Capitalism have to do with beliving in God and mytholgical books?

That reply made very little sense.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by adenoid hynkel+Aug 15 2006, 08:54 AM--> (adenoid hynkel @ Aug 15 2006, 08:54 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by adenoid [email protected] 14 2006, 11:18 AM

[email protected] 14 2006, 07:01 AM
But its okay when Europeans culture is embraced all over the world because it is "progressive" and "modern".

No one likes a taste of their own medicine.
If by European culture you mean not stoning people to death because of their sexuality, not treating worse than shit women who do not want to wear the "hijab" or the "niqab", not banning EVERYTHING "un-Islamic"( music, art, political thought etc.) then yes I believe that "its okay when Europeans culture is embraced all over the world"'.

Offcourse I did NEVER say that I support the so-called " crusade for democracy" in Middle East by Mr. Bush.

But anyway if you enjoy so much the muslim culture you are free to wear your "burqa" and go to Saudi Arabia.
Hahahahaha, I dont have a burqua.
Second of all, it is not necisary to wear a burqua.
Third of all the burqa is not "muslim culture" it is an "interpretation".
It doesnt say cover you face.......

You probably dont even know which way a Quran is opened.
Fourth of all. I am not cool with religious fundamentalism.
I was making a statement in response to the way your article was written.
Muslim people are not taking over Europe. It was a sensational article.


Most of the delicious European Desserts can be attributed to imperialism. I just think its funny that a continent that ONLY HAS WHAT IT HAS FOR FUCKING THE WORLD, is afraid of being taken over.
Who'da thought.
First of all I did not say that I am "afraid of Europe being taken over". I said that I do not want religious fundamentalism in Europe; I couldn't care less if this religious fundamentalism derives from white european born-again christians or from muslim middle-easterns.


How do you think that the muslim Turks came from Mongolia to the Balkans? Did you know that many European peoples( Slavs, Bulgarians, Albanians, Greeks, Romanians) were under Turkish occupation for more than 400 years? Do you know anything about the Armenian genocide performed by the Turks?
Did you know that Arab muslims also had black slaves? [/b]
"Second, please stop presenting the Europeans as the only people who have fucked the world. How do you think your beloved Islam spread in all the North Africa and even in Spain? With......love and peace? "

If a person does messed under a certian name, doesnt necissarily mean that they are a good representative of that idea.

Was stalin a good communist example?

Aside of that, the Europeans did this imperialist exploitation of the world on a higher level then any other, and are still doing it, so why bring up the Turks and Arabs like it is substancial?

I am sure arab muslims had black slaves, Im also sure they had white slaves too.
And sometimes they sold their own people to black slave owners.

I am not biased in this arguement because I have no identification with the brutality you outline in your posts, I jsut think you make extreme blanket statements and I call you out on it.

[adenoid hynkel]

Gee, no kidding? Of course, that has nothing to do with them being stuck into ghetto-like conditions, leading to whole "black neighbourhoods" and "black schools". Is that their fault? :huh:

Agree



Admittedly, here in the northern Netherlands there aren't nearly as many muslims as there are in the big cities in the west, so I might be behind on things, but still, I think I can say quite safely that we are not quite in danger of being governed by Shari'ah law!

Every political, religious, ideological group wants and tries to be governed by the laws that it believes in. A leftish group would try to enforce leftish laws, a nazi group would try to enforce nazi laws, a muslim group would try to enforce muslim laws(=Shariah law). The fact that the majority of muslims believe that the Shariah law is just means that they WANT to enforce this law. This means that if they have the chance to enforce it, they will try to do so.


For some reason, I do not think that I should take seriously a woman who has said that Europe is the victim of a French-led conspiracy to turn Europeans into servile bootlickers of Islam. :rolleyes:

I do not know this woman



And to what extent is this actually being enforced?

The fact that "Already, Muslim leaders in France, Britain, Denmark, and Belgium have declared certain Muslim neighborhoods to be under Islamic jurisdiction" is worrying enough, regardless of "to what extent this is actually being enforced"
If my bathroom is on fire, I won't wait until the whole house is on fire, in order to call the firemen; I will call them immediately.


You've got to be shitting me. I don't have the stats for the Netherlands, France and Britain at hand, but I know that Denmark and Belgium, at least, have actually tightened their immigrant policies, and that people like Filip DeWinter(another hero of these "gay rights activists"???) are ignoring this to further their own agenda.

Agree


Maybe the cutting of these is more problematic.

Agree



Yes, because the biggest newspapers constantly writing about "Eurabia" and "the church of leftism"(I'm not a member - it was abolished by Mao during the cultural revolution!) is really "politically correct suppression of dissent". What a dumbass.

Agree. Although at my country there are also many big "anti-racist" newspapers.


Choo-choo, here comes the Nederlandse Spoorwegen clue-train bringing you a little factoid about the Netherlands: every government has cowardly endorsement the USA and Israel in all their endeavours! No matter if it's "politically supporting" the Iraq War or saying "we need a ceasefire" in the Lebanon conflict, the message is always the same: no actual resistance to imperialism and zionism!

Agree


I am actually against Islamic schools, but that should be applied to ALL religious schools! Nevermind that the Dutch government still funds the most reactionary Christian schools under the guise of "freedom of religion". Anyway, I do not see a problem with schools teaching "hatred of Jews and America and contempt for democracy" if "normal" schools use the same kind of indoctrination to further their political goals. That doesn't mean that I approve of Islamic teachings, I'm just saying that the door swings both ways.

Agree


Well, if we're so for civil liberties, we can't really prevent them from travelling, can we? :-/

Well if you are so for civil liberties, you must let them come in your country. Then if you are so for civil liberties, you must let them go to Quranic schools in Middle-East, where they will be teached that only the Islamic law is just. Then, as you are so for civil liberties, you must let them express openly their Islamic ideas, form their Islamic parties with Islamic agendas etc.. When such a party will win the elections, the fact that you are so for civil liberties will be irrelevant, because you will not have civil liberties anymore.


I do not see how anti-Islamic legislation can keep people who live close to each other from killing each other. I would also dispute that honor killings happen "routinely", but maybe that's just me.

Restrictions in muslim immigration can prevent these "honor-killings" from becoming widespread in Europe; the fact that these behaviours are widespread in Middle-East is already bad; if they become widespread in Europe, it will be even worse.


Point being? :huh:.

The point is that your freedom of speech is in danger because of imams who will sign a death order against you, if they disagree with your ideas


Nazist gangs commit savage assaults on Muslims on busy streets while crowds look on passively.

The whole truth is that Nazist gangs commit savage assaults on Muslims on busy streets while crowds look on passively AND Muslim gangs commit savage assaults on busy streets while crowds look on passively. Have you ever heard of girls wearing mini-skirts being gang-raped by muslims because, as the rapists say; "" women who do not dress modestly deserve to be raped"" ?


Au contraire, I think they're pretty well-documented.

I do not know, I cannot answer.



Take your head out of your ass, Bawer! You think that if Christian homophobic sentiment is allowed to develop unchecked, just because it does not pose a physical threat to you at the moment(I would dispute that), it will never get worse??? Dipshit..

I agree. But you have to accept that, statistically, if there are 5 "Pat Robertsons" in a European population of 100 people, there are AT LEAST 30 " Pat Robertsons" in a Muslim population of 100 people.


Yes, because all Muslims form a unified bloc bent towards only one purpose: dominating European parliaments. Except that, umm, they don't. Oops. What an idiot! In the Dutch parliament, no Muslim parties currently have any seats. And of course, Muslims themselves are divided.

You repeat the same cliches. Indeed, all Muslims do not form a "unified bloc". But the majority of them have common ideas on some specific issues; if there was a poll about gay rights, what do you think that the vast majority of muslims would vote for? If there was a poll about woman rights, what do you think the majority of muslims would vote for? If there was a poll about secularism, would the majority of muslims vote for or against secularism? You KNOW the answers.
And it is not a matter of "dominating European parliaments". It is a matter of trying to do what you think that it is just and righteous. For example we believe that trying to create a secular society is righteous; and that's why we try to create a secular society. They believe that creating a muslim theocratic society is righteous. And they will try to create a muslim theocratic society.

I want to go to sleep, I will answer the rest later.

[Loknar]

I honestly am shocked that communists find commmon ground with mulsims.

Im drunk, but so was Churchill for most of WW2...

I say in all passionate responce that Muslim ideology is a threat to us...be it commie, moderate , ot fascist or not,.... we all embrace the western value of demoracy. and i think we all strive to preserve it no matter our political backround. I am proud to say that you communists would be my brother in any war agaisnt religious extremeism (all religion, indluding christianirty). please i ask all of you to see the threat from Islamic fundamentalists...

[adenoid hynkel]

I say in all passionate responce that Muslim ideology is a threat to us...be it commie, moderate , ot fascist or not,.... we all embrace the western value of demoracy.

I fail to see how muslim ideology is a threat to fascists. In fact fascists do not embrace the value of democracy and they have many things in common with muslim extremists.

[Loknar]

actually...youre right i condede that to you.

[An archist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 07:59 AM
we all embrace the western value of demoracy.
Fuck that! Democracy is the illusion of freedom and nothing more.

On topic: I don't know any leftists that support Islam, however, every leftist I know supports free immigration, whether those immigrants are muslim or not.
Personally I know quite some immigrants, but only one muslim girl and if we all were to take her as an example: shit man, we'd be living in Utopia already.
About the Muhammed cartoons she said that people weren't supposed to be making pictures of him, since that would be idolising him, but that violence was an even worse answer (according to the Quran too)
Anyway, the whole cartoon thing was blown way out of proportion by right wing Muslims and 'Westerners' purely for pôlitical gain.

EDIT: By the way adenoid, get your facts right, not all muslims want to impose Shariah law, just a small portion of extreme Islamists, just like a few Christian nutbags also want to impose biblical law

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by An [email protected] 16 2006, 07:15 PM

EDIT: By the way adenoid, get your facts right, not all muslims want to impose Shariah law, just a small portion of extreme Islamists, just like a few Christian nutbags also want to impose biblical law
Pal, if you say that contemporary christians have in their ranks as many extremists as contemporary muslims, you just live on another planet. This is all I can say.