Youre all cogs

[MKS]

As much as you Communists hate Capitalism what none of you can deny is that you all revel in the profits of Capitalism, and Liberal Democracy. Most of you I am assuming live in Western developed nations, and all of you have access to a PC, internet, etc. And most of you have loads of spare time. so how do you reconicile your relationship with Capitalism to your Socialist/Marxist etc ideals?

How can you sit there and denounce Capitalism when it has given you so much and you gladly take it?

[violencia.Proletariat]

and all of you have access to a PC, internet, etc.

Everyone in America has access to a PC, all you have to do is go to the local library. A homeless person who is one of the most exploited members of society has access to the internet. Does this mean he is profiting off of capitalism? :rolleyes:


And most of you have loads of spare time.

This has nothing to do with capitalism. It has to do with the proletarian class organizing itself to fight for a shorter workday.


How can you sit there and denounce Capitalism when it has given you so much and you gladly take it?

Given us what? What we have has all been fought for. So much for your theory.

[Yamashita]

Everyone in America has access to a PC, all you have to do is go to the local library. A homeless person who is one of the most exploited members of society has access to the internet. Does this mean he is profiting off of capitalism?

Yes, and none of you here are homeless library internet users, thank you very much ;)


Given us what? What we have has all been fought for. So much for your theory.

And you suggest you should NOT fight for it? :huh: Yeah, wouldn't you just love communism, so you sit in your fat ass not move a finger and like having a magic wand in your hand everything will be available for your consumption, gee when can communism start!? I like it already! :D

[Capitalist Lawyer]

They also claim that the USSR was capitalist or state-capitalist or whatever. The relationship between worker and boss in the two systems, and between boss and how he got there is FAR different in the two systems.

First, the worker in a capitalist society could quit, change jobs, was free to express his or her political views, own private property, in many cases invest in the company for which they worked, participate in peaceful public demonstations against the government, go on strike, and on and on.

Harldy what I would call a powerless worker. The ordinary worker in the Communist Soviet system generated goods and services as determined by Politburo, not according to demand.

[Janus]

First, the worker in a capitalist society could quit
Where would you go if you did?


change jobs
You have to find another job which requires time and resources. There is also the possibility that no other jobs or at least better jobs are available.


was free to express his or her political views
What if they're too radical? Palmer Raids? Smith Act? Patriot Act?


in many cases invest in the company for which they worked
Minor shareholders have no control over the company. Only the big dogs do.


participate in peaceful public demonstations against the government, go on strike, and on and on.
There are strong anti-union laws in many countries. In fact, certain contracts stipulate that you cannot strike. And there is also the past history of anti-worker and strike-breaking actions in the US's past.

[red team]

First, the worker in a capitalist society could quit

Where would you go if you did?

change jobs

You have to find another job which requires time and resources. There is also the possibility that no other jobs or at least better jobs are available.


True story. A friend working for an I.T. company was asked to see the manager one day and shown a stack of papers. When asked what it is the manager replied it's the stack of job applications and resumes from people who applied for his position. He was told that he's nothing special. What was that meeting between my friend and his manager all about? Figure it out.

[Yamashita]

True story. A friend working for an I.T. company was asked to see the manager one day and shown a stack of papers. When asked what it is the manager replied it's the stack of job applications and resumes from people who applied for his position. He was told that he's nothing special. What was that meeting between my friend and his manager all about? Figure it out.

They found a more highly qualified worker for his position? :huh: lol It's an I.T. company, not a supermarket.

[MKS]

Minor shareholders have no control over the company. Only the big dogs do.

My grandfather moved to the US from Ireland when he was a child. He was very poor and lived in the Bronx, but he worked hard, and studied and went on to work for IBM. Upon employment he was offered a reduced rate for some IBM stocks, he bought them in the late 1940's, now retired he enjoys a huge nest egg which he uses to help his family and friends. Sure he dosent "own" IBM but his job allowed him to secure a better life for himself and his family. And that is one of the benefits of American Capitalism, it rewards (not so much anymore) hard work and dedication.


Everyone in America has access to a PC, all you have to do is go to the local library. A homeless person who is one of the most exploited members of society has access to the internet. Does this mean he is profiting off of capitalism?

Yes he is benefiting from Capitalism by using the PC at a library, and I am sure he/she are happy to do so. And I would argue that the homeless in America are marginalized not exlpoited. Homelessness must be irradicated and while complaining about Capitalism is a good intellectual exercise, none of your Communist theories and ideals can build a house. The people must act in order to help their fellow man.


Given us what? What we have has all been fought for. So much for your theory.

did you really fight for your PC? Maybe you worked for it but you cant compare clocking an 8-12 hr work day to a struggle of revolutionary porportions. Im pretty sure you never really had to fight for anything in your life. Lets just admit for the amount of work you probably do, you are compensated very well for it, compared to other workers who actually do fight for survival.


This has nothing to do with capitalism. It has to do with the proletarian class organizing itself to fight for a shorter workday.

And thanks to the Liberal Democracy that allowed such organizations to flourish and be successful. Capitalism is not so bad in a Democratic nation, however when tyrannical and oppressive governments exist Capitalism can be very oppressive.

Imagine a workers strike in Soviet Russia, in Cuba or China. Im sure they were dealt with in the very Communist way. Forced labour camps.

No one ever answered my original question;so how do you reconicile your relationship with Capitalism to your Socialist/Marxist etc ideals?

[Janus]

My grandfather moved to the US from Ireland when he was a child. He was very poor and lived in the Bronx, but he worked hard, and studied and went on to work for IBM. Upon employment he was offered a reduced rate for some IBM stocks, he bought them in the late 1940's, now retired he enjoys a huge nest egg which he uses to help his family and friends. Sure he dosent "own" IBM but his job allowed him to secure a better life for himself and his family. And that is one of the benefits of American Capitalism, it rewards (not so much anymore) hard work and dedication.
If this is true, then your grandfather's case is a very rare one; most people were not as lucky as him. Furthermore, I was stating that minor shareholders have no power or control over the corporation.

[MKS]

If this is true, then your grandfather's case is a very rare one; most people were not as lucky as him.

It is true, and I personally know several other people who have risen from poverty. In fact many of the kids he grew up with are successfull.


Furthermore, I was stating that minor shareholders have no power or control over the corporation.

So what. They can still make money, and they have a greater stake in the company, meaning they will work harder and not be as likely to quit.

[Janus]

and I personally know several other people who have risen from poverty. In fact many of the kids he grew up with are successfull
And yet there are millions of people who do not. It is quite sad how capitalists are still able to sway people with the "American Dream".



They can still make money, and they have a greater stake in the company, meaning they will work harder and not be as likely to quit.
What about the case of Enron? Since only the top shareholders knew of the financial problems, they were able to come out of the mess pretty well. As for the minor shareholders, all their work did not help them at all since they were unable to decide and were unaware of the corporations policies and deceit.

Also, what if the company had gone bankrupt after they have retired? The shareholder would most end up with nothing.

[MKS]

What about the case of Enron? Since only the top shareholders knew of the financial problems, they were able to come out of the mess pretty well. As for the minor shareholders, all their work did not help them at all since they were unable to decide and were unaware of the corporations policies and deceit.

Well in the case of Enron, the workers got screwed. They were victims of a crime, and those criminals were prosecuted. Not much else can be done though.



Also, what if the company had gone bankrupt after they have retired? The shareholder would most end up with nothing.

Thats the nature of investing in any stocks, sometimes you profit, and sometimes you dont. The key however is that you are free to make that choice. One thing Communists never realize is that there is greater freedom in a Capitalist Democracy. Freedom is non existant in Communist nations.

Zapata was once asked what he thought of Communism, he asked who would spilt his earnings amongst the people. The person replied that a central authority would divide his earnings amongst the people and he replied, "anyone who tries to take the fruits of my labour will be full of bullets" (paraphrasing). Zapata was against the idea of anyone taking his earnings, so am I. No state, commitee, or any organization has the right to force me to act in any way.

[RevSouth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 10:15 PM
Well in the case of Enron, the workers got screwed. They were victims of a crime, and those criminals were prosecuted. Not much else can be done though.
I don't think you understood the nature of Janus' statement. But you did basically restate his point. Workers oftentimes have little or no control of their destiny. There lives are pretty much chance. They get what job they can when they can.


Thats the nature of investing in any stocks, sometimes you profit, and sometimes you dont. The key however is that you are free to make that choice. One thing Communists never realize is that there is greater freedom in a Capitalist Democracy. Freedom is non existant in Communist nations.

You make it sound as if everyone in a capitalist country can afford to invest in stocks. Quite the contrary. Unless you work for a company that compensates woek for stock, I would limit the purchasing of it to maybe the top 40% in the United States. Maybe less. Freedom is non-existent under leftism, eh? Free to choose your job, free to be provided with essentials for living at no cost? Free from wage slavery? Free from the fear of where your next meal is coming from? Free from being worse off than another person just because they were born in a richer family? Free to have sex with who you want, live with who you want, regardless of the consequences, and say what you want? If none of those aren't freedoms, I don't know what are.

[Janus]

Well in the case of Enron, the workers got screwed
Right.


Not much else can be done though.
That is because it is now over. This shows what happens when the workers have no control.


One thing Communists never realize is that there is greater freedom in a Capitalist Democracy. Freedom is non existant in Communist nations.
:rolleyes: You seem to have picked up the OI arguements pretty quickly, MKS. In communism, not only will nationalities be gone but so will the state itself!

[violencia.Proletariat]

Yes, and none of you here are homeless library internet users, thank you very much wink.gif

Prove it. ;)


And thanks to the Liberal Democracy that allowed such organizations to flourish and be successful.

BULLSHIT. The first country to make the 8 hour day a national law was Spain. The reason this law was passed was the CNT and its general strikes and insurrections. The CNT constantly had its offices and newspapers shut down, it was never given legal status.

The IWW was never left alone either, your liberal democracy physically attacked the members and tried to destroy it.


Capitalism is not so bad in a Democratic nation, however when tyrannical and oppressive governments exist Capitalism can be very oppressive.

Democracy does not exist in class society.


Imagine a workers strike in Soviet Russia, in Cuba or China. Im sure they were dealt with in the very Communist way.

Hey lets call soviet russia, cuba, and china communist :rolleyes: This is a tired one MKS, especially for you. I remember you being an anarchist was it, not too long ago.

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 12:37 AM
As much as you Communists hate Capitalism what none of you can deny is that you all revel in the profits of Capitalism, and Liberal Democracy. Most of you I am assuming live in Western developed nations, and all of you have access to a PC, internet, etc. And most of you have loads of spare time. so how do you reconicile your relationship with Capitalism to your Socialist/Marxist etc ideals?

How can you sit there and denounce Capitalism when it has given you so much and you gladly take it?

i guess you're right.

tell you what, then.. i shall go live on a farm with a sewing machine. you know, grow my own food, make my own clothes. i'll even allow a bunch of cavities to develop and die from toothaches and infections.. sure, that'll prove a whole lot.

and, in the meantime, i'll just sort of, you know, forget about capitalism's existence.. and the corpses lying in its wake.

humor aside, my dislike of capitalism has no bearing on the fact that i was born into the system. you cannot "refuse" to participate in an economy, if the alternative is starvation, malnourishment, back-breaking labor, etc. would you like to see me leave my friends? fiance? family? for what?

yes, i feel lucky not to be an african child, and that's for damn sure. so, keeping that in mind, what makes you think that i'd want to switch places with the child, if i'd know the terror that's in store for me?

the point of communism is to eliminate such questions, to eliminate the need to "switch places," to eliminate such sacrifices completely.. to eliminate, at bottom, the conditons that force such questions to inevitably arise. you're asking me to switch places, but i'm asking you why should we have a world in which such questions have to come up?

so, you may not be a communist, but you're probably a good person, so let me ask you a question. would you go live in a village without toothpaste and without food? again, for what? why would you? to prove what, to do what? to "struggle with the people," to really "feel" what it's like? you can imagine what it's like, and while your imagination might not make things better, that doesn't mean you should subject yourself to torture for the sake of concluding some kind of metaphysical argument.

that might have been fine for jesus christ, but it's not fine for communists. we're not martyrs.. we're just a bunch of lucky bastards that scraped some ideas together and want to see them put in practice. that doesn't mean that we desire toothaches.. nor do we desire watching our wives get raped by some african warlords simply because it happens all the time. for you to even suggest that we "ought" to go ahead and give some self-mutiliation a try is simply absurd.

[MKS]

BULLSHIT. The first country to make the 8 hour day a national law was Spain. The reason this law was passed was the CNT and its general strikes and insurrections. The CNT constantly had its offices and newspapers shut down, it was never given legal status.

The IWW was never left alone either, your liberal democracy physically attacked the members and tried to destroy it.

While there are abuses of power in almost any nation. If not for the liberal democracies of Spain, and the US the CNT's efforts and other workers organisations would not have been successful.



Democracy does not exist in class society.

What? The other day I voted, as did millions in America, if that is not a democratic action than i dont know what is/ Pure democracy does not exist, but democracy does exist in a class society. You know abe Lincoln was borne a poor farmer in Kentucky and then was elected President of the US, so he seemed to thrive in the class society, and through Democratic channels he was elected President.




Hey lets call soviet russia, cuba, and china communist

They call themselves Communist and they are the only example of attempted Socialism/communism.




In communism, not only will nationalities be gone but so will the state itself!

Well I like to talk about reality, not utopian assumptions. All attempted Communist nations have been and are very repressive and not democratic.



But you did basically restate his point. Workers oftentimes have little or no control of their destiny. There lives are pretty much chance. They get what job they can when they can.

Not in most western democracies. The people might have to work hard, some harder than others but there is room for growth and the creation of a better life. While some aspects of life are out of their control, most are well within their control, like earning potential, housing, etc.

I was offered to buy stock in a company that I worked for, I was a factory worker.
But stock and investments are not for everyone. But they are a good way to enhance worker ownership and responsibility.


Freedom is non-existent under leftism, eh? Free to choose your job, free to be provided with essentials for living at no cost? Free from wage slavery? Free from the fear of where your next meal is coming from? Free from being worse off than another person just because they were born in a richer family? Free to have sex with who you want, live with who you want, regardless of the consequences, and say what you want? If none of those aren't freedoms, I don't know what are.

All the above listed freedoms are accorded to most citizens of western democracies. Wage slavery is hyperbole, and their is always a cost for the "essentials of living". Freedom of expression is protected and promoted, no one goes to jail for having sex, and your next meal can always be found, and if not found than earned.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

"They call themselves Communist and they are the only example of attempted Socialism/communism."


Must be communist, then! Idiot. Why do you bother arguing when you don't even know the most elementary things about communism? Communism is stateless. Let's not even worry about the rest of the ideology, just focus on that. Before you open your mouth about China, Soviet Russia, Cuba, North Korea, all these places, do a little test. Ask yourself "Is there a state?" if yes, then it isn't communist.


I think there should perhaps be an O.I Learning forum. So many times have we heard this argument.

-Alex

[MKS]

Must be communist, then! Idiot. Why do you bother arguing when you don't even know the most elementary things about communism? Communism is stateless. Let's not even worry about the rest of the ideology, just focus on that. Before you open your mouth about China, Soviet Russia, Cuba, North Korea, all these places, do a little test. Ask yourself "Is there a state?" if yes, then it isn't communist.

Marx himself wrote about the necessity of a temporary state in order to usher in Socialism and reach ultimate stateless communism, therefore a Socialist/communist state is expected in any revolutionary society. The modern attempts at Socialism/Communism are all examples of the failed practice of revolutionary communism; the state was used necessarily as theorized by Marx and Engles and later by Lenin and others, in order to establish the system that would eventually lead to the dissolution of the state. Obviously this never happened, the state, instead of diminishing became stronger and more prevalent and the principle of the Vanguard was proven ineffective because those in power could not or would not give it up to the people. Your elementary view of Communism is utopian but more importantly misinformed if you think a stateless society will just emerge with no aide from a power structure, you my friend should read more and maybe you'll learn more about your beloved Communism.

[Leo]

Marx himself wrote about the necessity of a temporary state in order to usher in Socialism and reach ultimate stateless communism, therefore a Socialist/communist state is expected in any revolutionary society.

No, he didn't. He changed his ideas on the state after 1871.

He praised the Paris Commune for smashing the state. If you are interested (and I actually doubt that you are): http://marx.org/archive/marx/works/1871/ci...rance/index.htm (http://marx.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/index.htm)

[MKS]

Not only municipal administration, but the whole initiative hitherto exercised by the state was laid into the hands of the Commune.


The Commune was formed of the municipal councillors, chosen by universal suffrage in the various wards of the town, responsible and revocable at short terms. The majority of its members were naturally working men, or acknowledged representatives of the working class. The Commune was to be a working, not a parliamentary body, executive and legislative at the same time.


This sounds like a State to me. I think Marx actually promoted the destruction of the French Parlimentary Government by the working committee, which acted as system of government.


The direct antithesis to the empire was the Commune. The cry of "social republic", with which the February Revolution was ushered in by the Paris proletariat, did but express a vague aspiration after a republic that was not only to supercede the monarchical form of class rule, but class rule itself. The Commune was the positive form of that republic.

Marx knew that a power structre or state was nessecary in order to usher in true communism, this is basic Marxism.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Communism and blindly hanging on Marx's every word are not one and the same, he is not infallible. In any case, you seem more to be arguing against socialism and Lenin's vanguard ideas. Perhaps choose your wording more carefully.

-Alex

[violencia.Proletariat]

While there are abuses of power in almost any nation. If not for the liberal democracies of Spain, and the US the CNT's efforts and other workers organisations would not have been successful.


THE CNT WAS NOT A LEGAL ORGANIZATION. The liberal democracy was NOT the reason they were succesful. The militancy of the workers was! The democracy did not allow for the CNT and were just as afraid of it. If you would read some Spanish history you would see that under the Rivera dictatorship the repression was less worse than under your fucking "democracy."


The other day I voted, as did millions in America, if that is not a democratic action than i dont know what is/ Pure democracy does not exist, but democracy does exist in a class society.

Yes, there is republicanism in this country, there is not democracy.


They call themselves Communist

Really? I was pretty aware that they called themselves socialist.


and they are the only example of attempted Socialism/communism.

Actually they aren't.

[RevSouth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 11:42 PM
Not in most western democracies. The people might have to work hard, some harder than others but there is room for growth and the creation of a better life. While some aspects of life are out of their control, most are well within their control, like earning potential, housing, etc.

I was offered to buy stock in a company that I worked for, I was a factory worker.
But stock and investments are not for everyone. But they are a good way to enhance worker ownership and responsibility.

So your suggesting you can go out, and get a job right now, and you will never have to worry about money?

Thats correct, most people cannot afford stock, they are just trying to get buy, they can't afford to invest whenever they want.


All the above listed freedoms are accorded to most citizens of western democracies. Wage slavery is hyperbole, and their is always a cost for the "essentials of living". Freedom of expression is protected and promoted, no one goes to jail for having sex, and your next meal can always be found, and if not found than earned.

So your just as well off as Bill Gates daughter, eh? And we are speaking of capitalism in general, not just "Western Democracies". Freedom of expression is promoted? Why am I not allowed to protest outside my local recruiting office then? Who knows with the sex thing, the way the U.S. is going... And ask some African children how that meal is coming.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 12:37 AM
As much as you Communists hate Capitalism what none of you can deny is that you all revel in the profits of Capitalism, and Liberal Democracy. Most of you I am assuming live in Western developed nations, and all of you have access to a PC, internet, etc. And most of you have loads of spare time. so how do you reconicile your relationship with Capitalism to your Socialist/Marxist etc ideals?

How can you sit there and denounce Capitalism when it has given you so much and you gladly take it?
P-I, P-I, P-I-R-A!

[ZeroPain]

My grandfather moved to the US from Ireland when he was a child. He was very poor and lived in the Bronx, but he worked hard, and studied and went on to work for IBM. Upon employment he was offered a reduced rate for some IBM stocks, he bought them in the late 1940's, now retired he enjoys a huge nest egg which he uses to help his family and friends. Sure he dosent "own" IBM but his job allowed him to secure a better life for himself and his family. And that is one of the benefits of American Capitalism, it rewards (not so much anymore) hard work and dedication.

How ironic it is that IBM profited from the nazi's extermination efforts.

[Loknar]

What do any of you know about the 'work day'?

Have any of you ever worked? and was it hard labor?

Im a cappy...I used to work in a job that I doubt many of you have the ability to do. I dont mean physically but mentally....the actual fortitide to actually stay and work instead of saying "man its too hard Im outta here."

[bezdomni]

Have any of you ever worked? and was it hard labor?

No, we mostly buy stocks. ;)

[encephalon]

No one ever answered my original question;so how do you reconicile your relationship with Capitalism to your Socialist/Marxist etc ideals?

No reconciliation necessary. The development of capitalism is an integral part of marxism. Perhaps if you read a little instead of listening to RATM and thinking you're a leftist, then suddenly realizing you aren't one based on the very little you know, you might've already known that.

[Taiga]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 08:43 AM
What do any of you know about the 'work day'?

Have any of you ever worked? and was it hard labor?

Im a cappy...I used to work in a job that I doubt many of you have the ability to do. I dont mean physically but mentally....the actual fortitide to actually stay and work instead of saying "man its too hard Im outta here."
Don't pretend that you're the only one hard worker here.

Many of us know too well what's the 'work day' is.

[Solitary Mind]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 05:43 AM
What do any of you know about the 'work day'?

Have any of you ever worked? and was it hard labor?

Im a cappy...I used to work in a job that I doubt many of you have the ability to do. I dont mean physically but mentally....the actual fortitide to actually stay and work instead of saying "man its too hard Im outta here."
what do I know about the work day? well im relativly young, and have been working since i was not even a teenager! and no, i did'nt get special treatment. my grandpas a capitalist, and he owns a business, and wanted his own grandchild to work there before hitting puberty..doing the same as everybody else...thats just ONE thing about the 'work day'...when your a pre-teen doing that and working construction with family on the weekend...then you can say you know about the 'work day'

[red team]

What do any of you know about the 'work day'?

Have any of you ever worked? and was it hard labor?

Im a cappy...I used to work in a job that I doubt many of you have the ability to do. I dont mean physically but mentally....the actual fortitide to actually stay and work instead of saying "man its too hard Im outta here."

But, here's something you have to know about the goal of work in this present system. What do you think the purpose of it is? Henry Ford said it best when he said he was in the business of making money not cars. Do you know exactly what this means? It means whatever you're doing at work, you're not accomplishing it for sake of making something useful. Your main goal at work is to make something that sells. That is you make something or perform a service which returns a debt to someone. Money is a form of debt. It doesn't measure wealth. It doesn't measure usefulness. If it does then there's no point in having casinos or lotteries, since they're not producing anything useful.

Think about that the next time you go to work and have obviously useful stuff like food in clothing thrown away because it doesn't sell. Furthermore, think about why have all the heavy industries like steel and auto manufacturing offshored to other countries. You think people don't work hard when performing their jobs in those places?

Like what was said before, business operate solely on the basis of having more people owe them a debt than when they first started. It has nothing to do with making or performing anything useful, otherwise many industries will still be located in North America. Think about this for a while. Why dismantle a factory and relocate it to some low wage area if wealth as measured by money actually means production? Wouldn't leaving factories still standing to make useful products be better if you're expanding production and hence wealth? It makes as much sense as saying you want to travel farther in your car by cutting back on fuel.

A lot of workers have a exhausting day at work, but that's irrelevant if the point of their work is not to make anything to be used, but rather to make something that sells to produce a balance owing (profit).

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 12:37 AM
As much as you Communists hate Capitalism what none of you can deny is that you all revel in the profits of Capitalism, and Liberal Democracy. Most of you I am assuming live in Western developed nations, and all of you have access to a PC, internet, etc. And most of you have loads of spare time. so how do you reconicile your relationship with Capitalism to your Socialist/Marxist etc ideals?

How can you sit there and denounce Capitalism when it has given you so much and you gladly take it?
Capitalism has laid the foundations for socialist economy with the way it advanced the productive forces in the past. We have no desire to break useful machinery. We merely wish to take it over and place it under democratic workers' control to increase productivity, efficiency, standards of living, eliminating wealth and patents controlling what goes on the market, making advances happen more often and on larger scales, etc.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 09:24 PM
how do you reconicile your relationship with Capitalism to your Socialist/Marxist etc ideals?
You're assuming that many of us are unintentionally members of the economic class we claim to fight against. Two main things must be noted: (1) Middle-class westerners are not capitalists and in the 21st century quite often have access to the internet, and (2) It isnt impossible for leftists who may have inherited capital to simply refuse it.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 12:37 AM
How can you sit there and denounce Capitalism when it has given you so much and you gladly take it?
So since we naturally like a comfortable living condition that means we in turn like an oppressive system? That is a very weak argument at best. We work to survive, yes, you caught us, we gladly take what we need to live, because in this world, you can't surive without the monopoly money the government dishes out.

[CrazyModerate]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 12:37 AM
As much as you Communists hate Capitalism what none of you can deny is that you all revel in the profits of Capitalism, and Liberal Democracy. Most of you I am assuming live in Western developed nations, and all of you have access to a PC, internet, etc. And most of you have loads of spare time. so how do you reconicile your relationship with Capitalism to your Socialist/Marxist etc ideals?

How can you sit there and denounce Capitalism when it has given you so much and you gladly take it?
Because I believe that it is not myself alone that should have these luxuries, and that I know it is possible for others to have these luxuries.

I also know that if I were to sacrifice my oppurtunity, I would be less able to help those in need than if I got an education and worked in a field where I could assisst at home and abroad in closing the gap between rich and poor.

[MKS]

No reconciliation necessary. The development of capitalism is an integral part of marxism. Perhaps if you read a little instead of listening to RATM and thinking you're a leftist, then suddenly realizing you aren't one based on the very little you know, you might've already known that.

The necessity of the development of Capitalism in regards to the progression of Communism is beside the point that you and others who label yourselves "revolutionary leftists" on almost a daily basis exploit the very system you claim to abhor and fight against. Didn't Che sacrifice a comfortable middle class existence as well as a promising future in medicine in order to live, fight and die as a revolutionary? Why then shouldn’t you be expected to do any less? You could very easily live outside the system, sure it would be hard, and uncomfortable, but isn’t it worth it?

I don’t think I am a liberal, I know I am an active liberal, however I recognize the benefits of capitalism not just for me but for most everybody living in democratic states, while I do hope that the oppressive system will one day wither away for a more progressive and social economic scheme, I do not pretend to know just what that scheme will look like, unlike the Socialist/Communists who basically seem to not only know how it will be organized (at least theoretically) but promote an organization of power and economy that has been proven to lead to despotism and tyranny. Communists must understand that no matter how much you promote the apologetic tone of modern communism against the historical attempts at Communism, the two are forever linked. Communism is a failed ideology, and the "pure communism" of which some of you promote is over utopian and does nothing to progress the equality of man and the proliferation of liberty.



we gladly take what we need to live

You need a computer to live? I wonder how the Amish manage to survive?

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 09:06 PM

we gladly take what we need to live

You need a computer to live? I wonder how the Amish manage to survive?
So because we are Communists we can't have fun things or personal items such as computers or cd players? Idiot.

[MKS]

So because we are Communists we can't have fun things or personal items such as computers or cd players? Idiot.

Nope. Unless they are produced by a commune of workers which i doubtt they are. Owning a CD player, computer etc, is directly contributing to the capitalist/ commercial exploitation of the 3rd world. You should, if you are really communist, boycott all things produced by the market, other than nessicities, in order to progress your ideals.

[Messiah]

Fair enough, and most far leftists do make a point of being "ethical consumers", but what if some of these luxaries actually healp us in the spread of our ideals? Like say...computers and the internet?

[MKS]

but what if some of these luxaries actually healp us in the spread of our ideals? Like say...computers and the internet?

Thats fine, but recgonize your dependence on the system and its products, the problem I have is that many "revolutionary leftist" deny any personal exploitation of the system, and are qucik to label any person who admits such personal use as a "cappie". Communists need to understand that Capitalism is not completley evil, and all of us benefit from it on a daily basis, and we are glad to do so.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 08:44 AM

but what if some of these luxaries actually healp us in the spread of our ideals? Like say...computers and the internet?

Thats fine, but recgonize your dependence on the system and its products, the problem I have is that many "revolutionary leftist" deny any personal exploitation of the system, and are qucik to label any person who admits such personal use as a "cappie". Communists need to understand that Capitalism is not completley evil, and all of us benefit from it on a daily basis, and we are glad to do so.
You're departing from the premise that none of the consumer products we need would exist were it not for capitalism. Rather, capitalism simply allows for the amalgamation of capital and the means of production (which obviously already existed before they claimed it) by owners.

Yes, we may now depend on the fruits of capitalism to survive. Alienating ourselves from society in order to not contribute to it is a cop-out and accomplishes nothing.

We realize that capitalism isn't completely evil, but obviously not all of us benefit from it daily. In fact, most of us are fucked over by it daily.

[MKS]

You're departing from the premise that none of the consumer products we need would exist were it not for capitalism

Im not talking about nessecity, but luxury i.e. computers, internet, cars, etc. All these things are derived from the exploitation of the market and of the capitalist system.


Alienating ourselves from society in order to not contribute to it is a cop-out and accomplishes nothing.

Isn't that the whole idea of being a revolutionary, to seperate yourself from society in order to bring about radical change? How else would you define revolutionary acts? All of the revolutionaries of history have alienated themselves from the existing societal structre and systems (Che, Fidel, Mao, Lenin, Zapata etc.) in order to achieve there aims.



but obviously not all of us benefit from it daily

By "all" I meant everyone on this forum, who do benefit greatly from Capitalism.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Im not talking about nessecity, but luxury i.e. computers, internet, cars, etc. All these things are derived from the exploitation of the market and of the capitalist system.

What?!
Technological innovation occurs in both free market and command economies. As does the production of such things. If some capitalist buys all the vegetation in the world, and we have to depend on him to breathe oxygen, we're not gonna say that we need capitalism to live. Rather, capitalism has expropriated the means of survival.
I realize you're talking about luxuries and not necessities, but the metaphor applies.


Isn't that the whole idea of being a revolutionary, to seperate yourself from society in order to bring about radical change? How else would you define revolutionary acts? All of the revolutionaries of history have alienated themselves from the existing societal structre and systems (Che, Fidel, Mao, Lenin, Zapata etc.) in order to achieve there aims.

None of these people have ever reduced themselves to not being members, or "cogs", as you call us (and yourself), of a society. They all worked and consumed the goods produced by society allocated to them by their given economic system. Because they had no choice. Other than to go live in some shitty commune and accomplish nothing.


By "all" I meant everyone on this forum, who do benefit greatly from Capitalism.

Being oppressed middle-class workers, whose rightful share of the social product is denied to them does not qualify as "benefiting greatly from capitalism".

[Anti-Red]

Look, there are some crappy things that go on in capitalism but that is because man is flawed no matter what. Man is flawed in communism too and some will find ways to exploit in the communist society. The truth is also that even though many don't get their fair share in the capitalist countries, they are much better off than in non-capitalist countries. I must ask you this, are most third world countries capitalist? No. You will say the reason for their poverty is exploitation by us first-worlders and that is true but how did we get to be first? I don't know but one thing we have in common is capitalism. Sure there is exploitation by companies and lack of care by westerners but often most of it is done by their various tinpot dictators who love to command their economies. The sad truth is that poor countries like Africa don't need Mugabeism or whatever quasi-socialist ideology they have, they need capitalism.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

To accuse a lack of liberalism in the third world to be the cause of our poverty is simply tremendous ignorance. Forgive me, but hopefully you don't expect me to give you the time of day when you completely fail to show any understanding of history whatsoever.

[mauvaise foi]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 12:37 AM
As much as you Communists hate Capitalism what none of you can deny is that you all revel in the profits of Capitalism, and Liberal Democracy. Most of you I am assuming live in Western developed nations, and all of you have access to a PC, internet, etc. And most of you have loads of spare time. so how do you reconicile your relationship with Capitalism to your Socialist/Marxist etc ideals?

How can you sit there and denounce Capitalism when it has given you so much and you gladly take it?
Yes, capitalism has given me a lot, but it stole those things from other people. The reason white Americans enjoy such a high standard of living is because of imperialist exploitation, past and present. To take just one example: I live in luxury in California, but the most fundamental reason I am allowed to do so is because of the imperialist Mexican-American War of 1848.

I can't control that. I can't jump in a time machine and assassinate James K. Polk. And I'm not going to practice asceticism and live in a cave in order to escape from capitalism and imperialism. What good would that do? Capitalism and imperialism would still exist. The answer is to fight the system from inside the "belly of the beast," as Guevara called it.

[TheGreatOne]

The reason white Americans enjoy such a high standard of living

You, sir, are a racist asshole. Not all white americans enjoy a high standard of living. Many blacks and browns and yellows enjoy higher standards of living than white americans. I'm getting fucking fed up with people acting like white americans are all all above everyone else socially and economically because its just not fucking true and it is blatantly racist.

[mauvaise foi]

I'm speaking in generalizations of course. It is uncontroversially true that the vast majority of white Americans (and Western Europeans and Australians) enjoy a higher standard of living than the rest of the world. And I am not a racist. I am not anti-white, because there are exploited white workers in Eastern Europe, and I support them in their struggles.

[RevolutionaryMarxist]

Using this 'be grateful to ur masters" idea, why should have the slaves revolted against thier masters???? The masters were giving them homes, food, and everything they had!!

Because it sucked, thats why. There is more in life to gain and do.

Which is why we fight against Capitalism, Feudalism, Religion, and Facism no matter what ugly mask it puts on :)

[Luís Henrique]

As much as you Communists hate Capitalism

"Capitalism" is not a sophomore in highschool, it is no use "hating" it.


what none of you can deny is that you all revel in the profits of Capitalism,

No, dear. I work for whatever I have.

Work, do you know what is it?


and Liberal Democracy.

"Liberal Democracy" has nothing to do with "profits"; there are no "profits of Liberal Democracy".

Listen. I have actually fought for Liberal Democracy, and even got some beating because of it. Toppling a dictatorship is not easy, I may say. So by no means I want another one around here.

What exactly is your point?


Most of you I am assuming live in Western developed nations,

Not me: Brazil is certainly "Western", but by no means "developed".


and all of you have access to a PC, internet, etc.

Of course. All those nice PCs were made in factories, by workers like us. What is the problem?


And most of you have loads of spare time.

We have yanked it out of capitalists. 8 hour journeys aren't a gift from Heavens, they are a conquest of our movements.


so how do you reconicile your relationship with Capitalism to your Socialist/Marxist etc ideals?

Quite easily. I want the end of the private monopoly of means of production.


How can you sit there and denounce Capitalism when it has given you so much and you gladly take it?

"Capitalism" has given nothing to me. Everything that I have was acquired with by my own personal effort.

Luís Henrique

[RevolutionaryMarxist]

*claps*

[Sabocat]

poor countries like Africa

:lol:


You will say the reason for their poverty is exploitation by us first-worlders and that is true but how did we get to be first? I don't know but one thing we have in common is capitalism.

Your grasp of geography and economics is staggering.

:lol:

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Your grasp of geography and economics is staggering.
Not to mention history.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 02:24 AM

My grandfather moved to the US from Ireland when he was a child. He was very poor and lived in the Bronx, but he worked hard, and studied and went on to work for IBM. Upon employment he was offered a reduced rate for some IBM stocks, he bought them in the late 1940's, now retired he enjoys a huge nest egg which he uses to help his family and friends. Sure he dosent "own" IBM but his job allowed him to secure a better life for himself and his family. And that is one of the benefits of American Capitalism, it rewards (not so much anymore) hard work and dedication.




thats good for him. but think about it thats just ONE person. Im sure many more got dicked or and are still being dicked. But who cares? they arent your family, you dont know them. longest your gramps was good right?

see thats where we are different. we care for the entire work force and the fellow proletarian. ME PERSONALLY I couldn't be happy I would want the same for my fellow workers.

[MKS]

Alright, I’ve heard the arguments against my assertion, but I am still not convinced. Let me reiterate, I do not think that the majority of the people on this forum are aware of their contributions to the capitalist system, and if you are aware you are naively ignorant of your hypocrisy. Just as Thomas Jefferson was a hypocrite to a lesser degree so is anyone that espouses egalitarian rhetoric but acts in an adverse manner. Now I am not a proponent of the current capitalist system, that is to say I recognize the flaws and believe that the eventual collapse of the system is necessary in order to progress liberty and equality. However I do not condemn the system outright, because I also recognize the very good it has done at allowing the liberal democracies and the progression of human rights thus far. Without the "free-market" ideas, technologies and movements which have created a greater freedom for some would probably have either been staggered or completely disrupted.

I gave the example of my grandfather because his story is like a lot of stories which reflect the success allowed for under a liberal democracy supported by a free economy. I could have easily told the story of my friends father from India, or of his several uncles and aunts who have found a better life for them and their children in the nations of the US, Canada, and England. I could have also gone back hundreds of years and told the story of Alexander Hamilton, a man who was borne to a bankrupt father in the British West Indies and came to colonial America, worked, fought and lived for a foreign revolution and prospered because of it. Much like your beloved Che, Hamilton found success in the struggle for freedom, and even though Che's success was obviously less material, it was on level with any of the success of any American revolutionary.

My conclusion was reached, that you like Che must reflect the ideals you promote, you must live, fight and maybe even die outside the system, or as far outside of it as you can. To work, buy and sell within the established economy is to become a cog of the machine, and no matter how hard you try to stand against the currents of exploitation, oppression and injustice, you will be fixed inside the very mechanism which you seek to destroy.

So what is my point? My point is that "revolutionary" communism or Leftism is an absurd waste of time and energy. Your intellect and your talents are best suited at working towards small progressions of the movement. At securing a tangible and secure reality for the oppressed. To use the system until a suitable substitute is found, and to work within the liberal foundations of the western societies. Socio-economic change is not going to be the result of any violent or sudden struggle, but it will be the result of a steady progress of ideals and actions that create a lasting result, not just a mere regime change.

[ZX3]

Originally posted by red [email protected] 13 2006, 09:42 AM


But, here's something you have to know about the goal of work in this present system. What do you think the purpose of it is? Henry Ford said it best when he said he was in the business of making money not cars. Do you know exactly what this means? It means whatever you're doing at work, you're not accomplishing it for sake of making something useful. Your main goal at work is to make something that sells.
[QUOTE]

If something sells then it is useful. People do not purchase items that they do not find some use for.

[RevolutionaryMarxist]

To work, buy and sell within the established economy is to become a cog of the machine, and no matter how hard you try to stand against the currents of exploitation, oppression and injustice, you will be fixed inside the very mechanism which you seek to destroy.


Its easier to be in the system to break it than run outside of the system and then go back to break it.

Also quoting your albert einstein quote there -

did you know "Einstein was a member, sponsor, or affiliated with thirty-four communist fronts between 1937 and 1954. He also served as honorary chairman for three communist organizations." (FBI Report, http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/einstein.htm)

I think w.e else he said sortof nullifies that.

[MKS]

Its easier to be in the system to break it than run outside of the system and then go back to break it.

Is it easier to work outside the system to break it? or to work within the system to break it? I have been arguing for destruction from within, if you had read my posts! But alot of you have been quick to deny my assertions and proclaim your "holy" communism.


did you know "Einstein was a member, sponsor, or affiliated with thirty-four communist fronts between 1937 and 1954. He also served as honorary chairman for three communist organizations." (FBI Report,


So? What does that have to do with anything? Just because i find relevance with one einstein quote does not mean i am some sort of einstein groupie. a man says many different things in his life, we cannot base our lives on the voicess from the past.

[RevolutionaryMarxist]

we cannot base our lives on the voicess from the past.


Agreed, but Capitalists often cite the same from people like Orwell (Who was a Red Army Soldier and a Communist his whole life) and such.

History sometimes can be helpful, but I agree that it shouldn't dominate us.


Is it easier to work outside the system to break it? or to work within the system to break it? I have been arguing for destruction from within, if you had read my posts! But alot of you have been quick to deny my assertions and proclaim your "holy" communism.


Socialism is destruction of Capitalism from within, that is why all communists agree that Socialism has its "Roots" in Capitalism as its made from its dead parts, and then after a series of growth, 'Communism" is born.

It is impossible to turn Capitalism directly and immediatly into communism (Difference between Marxists vs Anarchists).

[namepending]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 08:37 PM
As much as you Communists hate Capitalism what none of you can deny is that you all revel in the profits of Capitalism, and Liberal Democracy. Most of you I am assuming live in Western developed nations, and all of you have access to a PC, internet, etc. And most of you have loads of spare time. so how do you reconicile your relationship with Capitalism to your Socialist/Marxist etc ideals?

How can you sit there and denounce Capitalism when it has given you so much and you gladly take it?
Sir, I say Sir,

who fucked up the world..................

could it be............. CAPITALISM!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Could all the small and insignificant advantages of being within the imperial borders... an advantage which is 0 is your in the bottom 40% of the population in terms of wealth, and neglible if your in all but the top 25%
be the result of exploitation of those places outside the imperial borders... purposeful exploitation, historical colonialism, contemporary neo-colonialism, modern imperialism?

NNNOOOOOOOOOOO, impossible!

Not impossible.

Very possible.

The opposite is impossible.

[Loknar]

What if the worlds civilizations were all communist? Where would we be?

We'd be in small communities of no more thanb 50,000, all independant. We would only be farmers and have little technological advancement. Capitalism gave humanity so much more incentive.

Capitalism is why we are more advanced today.

[Okocim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 02:13 PM
What if the worlds civilizations were all communist? Where would we be?

We'd be in small communities of no more thanb 50,000, all independant. We would only be farmers and have little technological advancement. Capitalism gave humanity so much more incentive.

Capitalism is why we are more advanced today.
you realise that the Greeks were perhaps the most inventive of all people and they certainly didn't have capitalism. Actually, Greek innovation is a good way of showing how innovation would continue under communism - these inventors had everything they needed, relatively rich, food, water, entertainment etc etc and yet they invented not in the hope of some monetary reward but in order to satisfy their natural human inventiveness and inquisitiveness.

Hero of Alexandria
Ktesibios
Archimedes

and if we're talking about advancement in general then there were Greek mathematicians, scientists, astrologers etc - all with the same natural human urge to progress which would still be present in communism.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 12:08 AM

Its easier to be in the system to break it than run outside of the system and then go back to break it.

Is it easier to work outside the system to break it? or to work within the system to break it? I have been arguing for destruction from within, if you had read my posts! But alot of you have been quick to deny my assertions and proclaim your "holy" communism.


did you know "Einstein was a member, sponsor, or affiliated with thirty-four communist fronts between 1937 and 1954. He also served as honorary chairman for three communist organizations." (FBI Report,


So? What does that have to do with anything? Just because i find relevance with one einstein quote does not mean i am some sort of einstein groupie. a man says many different things in his life, we cannot base our lives on the voicess from the past.
My friend, you are wasting everyone's time. Stop rehashing the same arguments we've already refuted. If you don't know what I'm talking about, read this thread.