Support for Hezbollah

[Anarchist Freedom]

Listening to my friend talk about what his family has to go through because they live there really just dissapoints me. I really dont support either but could probably side with isreal easier then hezbollah. I want a palestinean state but I think everyone needs to sit down and realize what they are doing and neither side does.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by YKTMR
What's the point?

I don't see how his position, in substance, differs from the standard "No to Hezbollah, No to Israel" schpeel common to this board.

As opposed to the supporting of reactionary thought "schpeel" common to the rag-selling junkies; or as they would like to be known as "the vanguard leaders of the proletariat".

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by Iceberg Slim+Aug 9 2006, 08:49 PM--> (Iceberg Slim @ Aug 9 2006, 08:49 PM)
YKTMR
What's the point?

I don't see how his position, in substance, differs from the standard "No to Hezbollah, No to Israel" schpeel common to this board.

As opposed to the supporting of reactionary thought "schpeel" common to the rag-selling junkies; or as they would like to be known as "the vanguard leaders of the proletariat". [/b]
I don't debate racists. It's kind of a principle, sorry.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by YKTMX+Aug 9 2006, 04:59 PM--> (YKTMX @ Aug 9 2006, 04:59 PM)
Originally posted by Iceberg [email protected] 9 2006, 08:49 PM

YKTMR
What's the point?

I don't see how his position, in substance, differs from the standard "No to Hezbollah, No to Israel" schpeel common to this board.

As opposed to the supporting of reactionary thought "schpeel" common to the rag-selling junkies; or as they would like to be known as "the vanguard leaders of the proletariat".
I don't debate racists. It's kind of a principle, sorry. [/b]
Yet you adamantly support an organization that wishes to eliminate all jews?

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by Fist of Blood+Aug 9 2006, 10:58 PM--> (Fist of Blood @ Aug 9 2006, 10:58 PM)
Originally posted by YKTMX+Aug 9 2006, 04:59 PM--> (YKTMX @ Aug 9 2006, 04:59 PM)
Iceberg [email protected] 9 2006, 08:49 PM

YKTMR
What's the point?

I don't see how his position, in substance, differs from the standard "No to Hezbollah, No to Israel" schpeel common to this board.

As opposed to the supporting of reactionary thought "schpeel" common to the rag-selling junkies; or as they would like to be known as "the vanguard leaders of the proletariat".
I don't debate racists. It's kind of a principle, sorry. [/b]
Yet you adamantly support an organization that wishes to eliminate all jews? [/b]
How do you propose we should combat anti-semitism amongst the Arab masses?

[Guest1]

Establish an Israeli occupation over Lebanon! Surely that will win Arabs over to the ideas of socialism, right?

Comrades make the same mistake, once again, that the Soviet Union made in the Middle East. Israel must be supported because it represents the progressive, if costly, transformation of the Middle East, the bureaucrats shouted! Today, Communists are still considered agents of the west in many places thanks to that attitude.

And to Anarchist Freedom, why is an Israeli life worth more than a Lebanese or Palestinian life to you?

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 10 2006, 12:26 AM
Establish an Israeli occupation over Lebanon! Surely that will win Arabs over to the ideas of socialism, right?
You'd think.

I mean obviously CyM is joking here, but in another thread, a comrade suggested that the Lebanese working class should, en masse, "run away" rather than "get involved" with the resistance. Because, of course, anyone fighting the Israelis in Southern Lebanon must be, by definition, some kind of fascist "lunatic".

Now that's independent class politics. Independent of the situation, the Lebanese masses, "reality", Planet Earth etc.

:lol:

Or perhaps you favour the approach this (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=53762&view=findpost&p=1292136270) comrade outlines, which says that rather than fight the Israelis, Lebanese Communists should join the Red Crescent and help sift through the rubble once the Lebanese nation has been liquidated by the Zionists.

Great.

[Ian]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 10 2006, 08:58 AM
Yet you adamantly support an organization that wishes to eliminate all jews?
Neither Hizbollah or Hamas advocate this, get your facts straight.

[kurt]

Originally posted by Ian+Aug 9 2006, 04:56 PM--> (Ian @ Aug 9 2006, 04:56 PM)
Fist of [email protected] 10 2006, 08:58 AM
Yet you adamantly support an organization that wishes to eliminate all jews?
Neither Hizbollah or Hamas advocate this, get your facts straight. [/b]
Well unless someone posted a fake source on this board a couple days ago..

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Ian+Aug 9 2006, 07:56 PM--> (Ian @ Aug 9 2006, 07:56 PM)
Fist of [email protected] 10 2006, 08:58 AM
Yet you adamantly support an organization that wishes to eliminate all jews?
Neither Hizbollah or Hamas advocate this, get your facts straight. [/b]
"if they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." - Hassan Nasrallah (Secretary General of Hezbollah)

[Anarchist Freedom]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 9 2006, 08:26 PM
Establish an Israeli occupation over Lebanon! Surely that will win Arabs over to the ideas of socialism, right?

Comrades make the same mistake, once again, that the Soviet Union made in the Middle East. Israel must be supported because it represents the progressive, if costly, transformation of the Middle East, the bureaucrats shouted! Today, Communists are still considered agents of the west in many places thanks to that attitude.

And to Anarchist Freedom, why is an Israeli life worth more than a Lebanese or Palestinian life to you?


Absolutely not establish an occupation over lebanon but at least take care of hezbollah. Hell no it wont win arabic people.

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by Anarchist [email protected] 10 2006, 03:17 AM
Absolutely not establish an occupation over lebanon but at least take care of hezbollah. Hell no it wont win arabic people.
anarchist freedom,

hezbollah sucks. many arabic militant groups suck. no one disputes this.

however..

although i do not "support" most of hezbollah's politics, i DO feel that there is a much more pressing issue right now.. that is, israeli aggression in lebanon. that's the most important thing in the middle east right now: the invasion. if there was another group, a more progressive group, a non-religious group, doing its best to throw the israeli occupation out, i would support that group without reservations.

however, given the circumstances, there is no such group right now. there's only hezbollah. and hezbollah, to us communists, is not a group we "like" for its politics or for its religion.. it's simply a group, the only group, to be doing anything about the current situation there. if we had a choice between groups, we'd make that choice. until something better comes along, we only have bullshit. it's not up to us.

and, this isn't an ordinary situation. this isn't passive. this is an emergency, a very rough, very unjust, and very violent emergency. this is israeli aggression that's being dealt with in the only way possible. if there was no tension, no war, no problems, we wouldn't be running around hoping that hezbollah will drive anything back, since there will be nothing to drive back in the first place. unfortunately, that's not the case.. and that's all we can say on this matter. we have to form an opinion on extremely pressing issues.. and that's it.

[LSD]

Yet you adamantly support an organization that wishes to eliminate all jews?

Yes.

Because whatever fantastical grandiose "wishes" Hezbollah may have, it has absolutely no ability to carry them out. Israel, however, has every ability to execute its brand of ethnic cleansing.

Practical politics are never "pure". You can sit on your ass all day dreaming about "ideal solutions" to world crises, but in the real world "ideal" doesn't exist.

Is Hezbollah a despicable organization? Yes. But then so was the Soviet Union. Does that mean that the Russian people in 1943 should have "refused to fight"? Maybe they should have all "run away" to Siberia and let "Hitler and Stalin" fight it out? :rolleyes:

Way too many people are aproaching this from an idealist perspective. It doesn't matter whether you "like" Hezbollah or not. The choice is between imperialism or resistance.

Choose!


How do you propose we should combat anti-semitism amongst the Arab masses?

The first step is to end Israeli imperialism. As long as there are Israeli gunships blowing up Arab civilians on a regular basis, no one will be able to convince the Arab public that "the Jews" are not their enemy.

The fact is war perpetuates stereotypes. People learn to hate their enemies and when their enemies are overwhelmingly of one race or one ethnicity, they learn to hate that race or ethnicity too.

The relationship between Israel, Judaism, and the "Jewish people" is a very complex, very multifaceted one, but expecting the Arab masses to understand that is like expecting Poles in WW2 to understand that "not all Germans" were Nazis.

You want to "educate" the middle east? Fine, but if you try telling Palestianians that the "Jews are no threat to you", they'll laugh in your face.

You know why most Russians don't hate Germans today? 'cause they've had fifty years of peace. That's just the way the world works.


Absolutely not establish an occupation over lebanon but at least take care of hezbollah.

To whom is this imperitive directed?

Who is it exactly that should "take care" of Hezbollah? Israel? You realize that Israel's only interest in "taking care" of the Lebonese resistance is so that they can "take care" of Lebanon, right?

Remember how this whole thing started, AF. Israel is running an illegal military occupation in defiance of the entire world community and every piece of international law ever written. In response, a resistance group in the North attacks and kidnaps two soldiers. Not civilians, not "innocent bystanders", members of an illegal occupying force.

Israel in turn, kills 1000 Lebanese civilians.

Now, if you were living in Lebanon right now, what would you do? Condemn Hezbollah 'cause its ideas are shit or help stave off Israel 'cause its murdering your friends.

No one's "taking care" of Hezbollah because right now the IDF is the bigger problem. Maybe if Israel wasn't boming children we could have a nice academic debate on Hezbollah's idea, but right now we just don't have the time.


Comrades make the same mistake, once again, that the Soviet Union made in the Middle East. Israel must be supported because it represents the progressive, if costly, transformation of the Middle East, the bureaucrats shouted!

Except didn't the Soviet Union generally support the Arab countries against Israel?

Stalin was somewhat conflicted on what to do about the "Jewish question" prior to '48, but once Israel was established and it become clear that it was going to be an effective American puppet in the region, the USSR went all gung-ho anti-zionism and never looked back.

[Urban Rubble]

Edit: Actually, just skip this post and read LSD's above. His is well worded and makes me look like a babbling fool. I agree with him 100%.

Regarding the whole Hizbollah support debate, I really don't see why people have such a hard time supporting an organization in their fight against Imperialism, yet denouncing the reactionary parts of their ideology.

Do I wish to see Islamic law ruling in Lebanon? Of course not. However, what I really, really don't want to see happen is Israel gaining more land to occupy. The fact is, Hizbollah is the only group resisting, there is no time for neutrality on the issue. Either you support their fight against Israel or you don't have a problem with Israel setting Lebanon back 50 years.

There is no reason to believe that Hizbollah will take control of Lebanon if the Israelis are expelled. So, I will support the resistance of all people against Israel, once they are gone, I will not support any attempt by Hizbollah to grab power.

As for AF, he simply doesn't grasp the situation, but to be honest, he's never been very politically knowledgeable. Sorry to be rude. I don't support restricting anyone on here, but it seems that it's in line with board policy........

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 11:57 PM
Except didn't the Soviet Union generally support the Arab countries against Israel?

Stalin was somewhat conflicted on what to do about the "Jewish question" prior to '48, but once Israel was established and it become clear that it was going to be an effective American puppet in the region, the USSR went all gung-ho anti-zionism and never looked back.
Yes, I was talking about the pre-48 debate, and material and diplomatic support for the settlers.

The arab communist parties had a very hard time recovering from that.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by yktmr
I don't debate racists. It's kind of a principle, sorry.


That's fine dear, my interest in your ramblings is for entertainment purposes only my little rag-puppet.

[MeTaLhEaD]

Hezbollah1!!!!!!!!!!

Hasta la victoria siempre!

[Dean]

I support Hezbollah against Israel.

The implications on racism are unrealistic. There are certainly those in Hezbollah that are racist, but polls show a 55% support for Hezbollah among the Christian Lebanese citizens (about 23% of Lebanese are Christian). Hezbollah was formed with a base of poor farmers that had had enough with the constant Israeli terror, occupation and theft in Lebanon. They already see the rape of Palestine, and face Israeli terror when that Gov't decides to test out it's military advancements.

The news implicating a "Hezbollah human shield tactic" are sick and wrong - any guerilla warfare in a populated area is going to be close to civilian targets. Could we not say the same of the Pentagon, or for that matter any military base that is close to a civilian population?

Hezbollah is certainly extremist. But they act in response to decades of human rights violations by the Israeli government, including torture, false imprisonment, illegal occupation, theft of houses and land and military targetting of civilian and infrastructure targets. If Hezbollah stopped lobbing rockets into Israel without a withdrawl of Israeli troops, payment for damages and release of illegally imprisoned arabs and muslims it would be a sign that Israel can not only continue its genocide, but speed up its process.

Most Arabs, Jews and Muslims want peace, whether in Lebanon, Syria, Israel or Palestine. The problem is that Israel doesn't want that, may racist clerics and muslim leaders don't want that, and the United States is not pursuing the best peace process available at this time - to threaten withdrawal of military aid to Israel unless human rights violations are curbed and the occupied territories are freed, among other changes. This won't completely stop the violence, because as we've seen in instances like the London subway bombing there are terrorists who do not seek a fight for freedom, but a racist dogma that is a deformed interpretation of the Quran. But it will curb it and with hope and order in the region eventually cease the racist terror attacks executed in the name of a long - dead "prophet."

[Redcarpet]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 9 2006, 10:58 PM
[QUOTE=YKTMX,Aug 9 2006, 04:59 PM]
Yet you adamantly support an organization that wishes to eliminate all jews?
They are not committed to anything of the sort. When Hezbollah was first created in 1982 to resist the Israeli invasion, they immediately set out their goals. including committment to the two-state solution. That committment has never changed.

Smears like that may be interesting to those who give it, but it's still nonsense.

[praxis1966]

Quite right. Saying that Hezbollah's goal is annihilation of the Jewish race is a bit like saying that the IRA's goal is the annihilation of the English people. The situations are analogous, as people forget that the IRA was formed in response to the the creation of the UVF, which NI Republicans saw as a threat to the Catholic population. Likewise, Hezbollah was formed not only to combat Israeli aggression but the corrupt Lebanese goverment which was too week to do anything about it [the Israelis].

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by Anarchist [email protected] 9 2006, 08:33 PM
I want a palestinean state
You want a state, and you call yourself an anarchist?? I sympathise far more with Hezbollah than Israel, however, I oppose them both, I've explained my position in several threads. As for supporting Israel? what!?

They are not committed to anything of the sort.

Pure farce. The organisation have themselves admitted that the elimination of the Jewish race is one of their desired goals, it's one thing to say 'we support them, but not the anti-semitism' (like YTKMX and co) but it's simply absurd to deny they are anti-semites.

"if they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."-Haret Hreik, Nasrallah (Speaking for Hezbollah)

"It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth" -Statement from Hezbollah (1992)

[nerifr]

fuck hizbolla!

no anrchists or left winger should support a terror RACIST group that are EXTREMLY RELIGIOUS!!!

you call yourself socialists..

[LSD]

no anrchists or left winger should support a terror RACIST group that are EXTREMLY RELIGIOUS!!!

By that same logic, we should not have support the Red Army durring World War II. After all, the Soviet Union was a radically oppressive and totalitarian regime.

Besides, it doesn't matter what fantastical grandiose "wishes" Hezbollah may have, it has absolutely no ability to carry them out. Israel, however, has every ability to execute its brand of ethnic cleansing.

Look, war perpetuates stereotypes. People learn to hate their enemies and when their enemies are overwhelmingly of one race or one ethnicity, they learn to hate that race or ethnicity too.

The relationship between Israel, Judaism, and the "Jewish people" is a very complex, very multifaceted one, but expecting the Arab masses to understand that is like expecting Poles in WW2 to understand that "not all Germans" were Nazis.

You want to "educate" the middle east? Fine, but if you try telling Palestianians that the "Jews are no threat to you", they'll laugh in your face.

You know why most Russians don't hate Germans today? 'cause they've had fifty years of peace. That's just the way the world works.

The only way to end arab antisemitism is to end Israeli imperialism. For now, that means grudginly supporting some incredibly despicable organizations. But then practicaly politics are never "pure". We don't have the luxury of living in the "best possible world".

Ask yourself the question, if you were living in Lebanon right now, what would you do? Condemn Hezbollah 'cause its ideas are shit or help stave off Israel 'cause its murdering your friends.

Way too many people are aproaching this from an idealist perspective. It doesn't matter whether you "like" Hezbollah or not. The choice is between imperialism or resistance.

Choose!


you call yourself socialists.

No, actually, I don't.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

nerifr:


no anrchists or left winger should support a terror RACIST group that are EXTREMLY RELIGIOUS!!!

Correct: screw the IDF, and the Zionist state.

And I say that as a Jewess, and a socialist.

[DORRI]

I'm with hezbollah. one reason is that they 're getting revenge of palestinians.

[Phalanx]

The battle between Hizbollah and Israel is nothing like the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. If Israels doctrine was to kill or enslave the populace of Lebanon and create 'living room' for Israel, I could see the similarities. But Hizbollah was the one that attacked, and believe it or not, Israel is fighting because they want to rid south Lebanon of rocket launchers, not for some hidden master plan.

That said, Israel is using way too much force and should be condemned as such.

This is a fight leftists shouldn't get involved in. It's not a battle between the imperialists and the anti-imperialists, just two imperialist organizations fighting to the end.

[James]

Ask yourself the question, if you were living in Lebanon right now, what would you do? Condemn Hezbollah 'cause its ideas are shit or help stave off Israel 'cause its murdering your friends.


Israel doesn't purposely target civilians.
Hezb does.

Hezb "invaded" israel and attacked israeli troops
Israel responded.

Israel warns areas about to come under attack. Israel is only wanting to target hezb.
Hezb targets jews. As long as it's a jew its ok (they have told arabs to leave). They are racists.

Israel wants peace and security.
Hezb seems to want death and destruction (and their very close friend, iran, seems to want to see the destruction of israel).

Israeli troops wear uniforms.
Hezb don't.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

This is a fight leftists shouldn't get involved in. It's not a battle between the imperialists and the anti-imperialists, just two imperialist organizations fighting to the end.

You do know that there were Marxist, and Secular participants within Hezbollah during the 80's, which made Israel leave.



That said, Israel is using way too much force and should be condemned as such.

Hezbollah are using guerrilla tactics and has some modern technology. This means that Israel cannot engage and kill serious numbers of Hezbollah.

If Israel continues using conventional warfare tactics then they will not be able to destroy Hezbollah. Israel must use guerrilla tactics in order to win, but they will be there for years if they do.


But Hezbollah was the one that attacked, and believe it or not, Israel is fighting because they want to rid south Lebanon of rocket launchers

WTF? Hezbollah has a right to exist and defend Lebanese land from Israeli/U$ aggression. Hezbollah started attacking Israeli military targets AFTER the Israeli's bombed Lebanon.

Hezbollah is a workers militia as much as it is a Muslim militia. Look how advanced it is

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002591.html

[Leo]

LSD,


Does that mean that the Russian people in 1943 should have "refused to fight"?

Yes, it would be better if the Russian and German workers refused to fight during the second world war instead of fighting for the interests of their national ruling class. Millions would survive if that had happened.


Way too many people are aproaching this from an idealist perspective. It doesn't matter whether you "like" Hezbollah or not. The choice is between imperialism or resistance.

No, the choice is not between imperialism and resistance, the choice you present is between imperialism and imperialism. The only reason why Hizbullah is fighting against Israel is beceause it suits their interests. Hizbullah is fighting for territory, resources and authority over people. This is an inter-imperialist war.

When the workers get sucked up into nationalism, they lose the ability to act as a class, and Hizbullah is drawing people to its ranks with nationalism for its own interests only.

Now clearly, Hizbullah is the weaker power, and people from the left gets smyphatetic to them.

However both options give the same thing to workers: death.

If they have a choice left, if they aren't entirely sucked up into nationalism and lost the ability to act as a class, then The proletariat should choose life!


Now, if you were living in Lebanon right now, what would you do? Condemn Hezbollah 'cause its ideas are shit or help stave off Israel 'cause its murdering your friends.

I would actually try to save as much lives as possible. Revenge never helps anything, it doesn't bring the dead back.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by Chinghis [email protected] 11 2006, 09:07 PM
The battle between Hizbollah and Israel is nothing like the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. If Israels doctrine was to kill or enslave the populace of Lebanon and create 'living room' for Israel, I could see the similarities. But Hizbollah was the one that attacked, and believe it or not, Israel is fighting because they want to rid south Lebanon of rocket launchers, not for some hidden master plan.
Zionist propaganda.

The state of Israel is created precisely to create "living room" for the "chosen people" in the land "God gave to them". That's what it's for.

The lies:

1) Hezbollah didn't "attack Israel". Israel has been involved in military operations in Southern Lebanon ever since the so-called "pull out" in 2000. Hezbollah captured soldiers who were involved, going to be involved or had been involved in the continuous Israeli butchery in both the Gaza strip (where, let's not forget, before the war in Lebanon started, the Zionists were running amok) and south Lebanon.

Hezbollah's decision to capture the two IDF soldiers may been stupid in that it gave an "pre-text" for Israeli barbarism in the Lebanon, but it certainly never "started it". Israel already had a plan for their "defensive operations" in Lebanon.

2) The "rocket launchers" gambit. First of all, why shouldn't Hezbollah have rocket launchers and missiles and fucking drones and everything else the invaders have got? And what about the rather convincing report in the Washington Times that the Zionists are intentionally not destroying Hezb rockets so as to provide a "pre-text" for their "disporportionate reponse"*

*see: disembowling random Lebanese civilians.

[Patchd]

Originally posted by Rosa [email protected] 11 2006, 08:30 PM
nerifr:


no anrchists or left winger should support a terror RACIST group that are EXTREMLY RELIGIOUS!!!

Correct: screw the IDF, and the Zionist state.

And I say that as a Jewess, and a socialist.
Hehehe, nice one.

[Phalanx]

(YKTMX)


The state of Israel is created precisely to create "living room" for the "chosen people" in the land "God gave to them". That's what it's for.

No, this war isn't a land-grab, it's to destroy Hizbollah


Hezbollah didn't "attack Israel". Israel has been involved in military operations in Southern Lebanon ever since the so-called "pull out" in 2000. Hezbollah captured soldiers who were involved, going to be involved or had been involved in the continuous Israeli butchery in both the Gaza strip (where, let's not forget, before the war in Lebanon started, the Zionists were running amok) and south Lebanon.

Yes, Hizbollah did attack Israel. The so-called Israeli operations were actually battles between Hizbollah guerrillas that were trying to enter Israel and the IDF. Hizbollah did not capture soldiers that were in any way involved in the Gaza operations. You have a limited knowledge of the IDF. Soldiers in the north are stationed there for the length of their service, same with soldiers in the south. They don't send soldiers in the north to fight in the south.


The "rocket launchers" gambit. First of all, why shouldn't Hezbollah have rocket launchers and missiles and fucking drones and everything else the invaders have got? And what about the rather convincing report in the Washington Times that the Zionists are intentionally not destroying Hezb rockets so as to provide a "pre-text" for their "disporportionate reponse"*

Hizbollah can have those rocket launchers, fine, but that also gives Israel the right to destroy them when they attack Israel.

As for your conspiracy theory, it may be correct, but I'd like to see some actual evidence of this.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 09:31 PM
WTF? Hezbollah has a right to exist and defend Lebanese land from Israeli/U$ aggression. Hezbollah started attacking Israeli military targets AFTER the Israeli's bombed Lebanon.

Hezbollah is a workers militia as much as it is a Muslim militia. Look how advanced it is

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002591.html
Hizbollah were the ones that provoked this war. Although Israel is definately using disproportionate force against Lebanon, this war was a product of Hizbollah's initiative. Israel started bombing Lebanon after Hizbollah attacked Israel.

Hizbollah is in no way a workers militia. It is just as reactionary and racist as the State of Israel.

[Jamal]

How can the capturing of two soldiers be a provocation of a war?

[YKTMX]

No, this war isn't a land-grab, it's to destroy Hizbollah

All Israeli wars are land-grabs - Israel has never been in a war in which it hasn't occupied land afterwards, can you explain this?

Anyway, Hizbollah cannot be "destroyed" because it's not just a random group of terrorists, it's a part of a national resistance movement. The "individual" Hezbollah fighters are just small parts of a wider struggle. For every Hezbollah soldier they kill, 3 will take his place. In any case, if this was a war merelly to destroy Hezbollah, it would be fought very differently. Why, for instance, would you attack civilian Lebanese infastructure (just like they did in Gaza) if your goal was merely hurting Hezbollah? Why would you kill civilians if you knew this would only strengthen anti-Israeli opinion?


The so-called Israeli operations were actually battles between Hizbollah guerrillas that were trying to enter Israel and the IDF. H

Define "Israel"?


Hizbollah did not capture soldiers that were in any way involved in the Gaza operations.

All Zionist soldiers are "involved". Are you suggesting these soldiers formed the pacifist wing of the Zionist army?


Hizbollah can have those rocket launchers, fine, but that also gives Israel the right to destroy them when they attack Israel.

Fine, that's your position. Let's establish a moral code then:

Ergo, the Palestinians have a right to obliterate Israeli civil society the next time the Israelis enter Palestinian land? Yes?

[Phalanx]

All Israeli wars are land-grabs - Israel has never been in a war in which it hasn't occupied land afterwards, can you explain this?

Israel won't simply take south Lebanon as its own after the war. Right now it's focusing on destroying Hizbollah's capabilities to launch rockets into Israel. With the exception of the 1982 Lebanese war, all wars fought by Israel have been to secure it's survival. They feel that capturing land from their enemies will give them barganing chips to peace. And they've been proven correct with the example of Egypt.


Anyway, Hizbollah cannot be "destroyed" because it's not just a random group of terrorists, it's a part of a national resistance movement.

Go tell that to the Israeli government, I've got no affiliation.


Define "Israel"?

The internationally recognized pre-1948 borders.


All Zionist soldiers are "involved". Are you suggesting these soldiers formed the pacifist wing of the Zionist army?

No. Those soldiers in the north are not involved with the Gaza operations. That doesn't mean that they're pacifists.


Ergo, the Palestinians have a right to obliterate Israeli civil society the next time the Israelis enter Palestinian land? Yes?

I'm not saying Israel has a right to destroy Lebanese civil society, but if Hizbollah fires the rockets into Israel, Israel has a right to hit back.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 11:54 PM
How can the capturing of two soldiers be a provocation of a war?
It isn't. The war simply escalated when Israel tried to retrieve the soldiers in Lebanon.

[YKTMX]

They feel that capturing land from their enemies will give them barganing chips to peace. And they've been proven correct with the example of Egypt.


So, illegal occupations are an indication you desire "peace"? Go tell that to the Palestinians. The war against Egypt was a war hell-bent on destroying the only force in the region that can destroy the apartheid state, the united Arab working class.


Go tell that to the Israeli government, I've got no affiliation.

Apart from the political. Would you call yourself a Zionist?



The internationally recognized pre-1948 borders.

The "pre-48" borders are not legitimate. Israel is a colonialist-settler state backed by Western Imperialism, designed to protect Imperialist interests in the Middle East and make sure the Arab people are kept quiet. It's "borders" are merely the battlefields of the future, and its "cities" being kept warm for the glorious day when the Palestinian people have their land, every last square foot of it, returned to them, because it is theirs.

Israel should be wiped off the map.


No. Those soldiers in the north are not involved with the Gaza operations. That doesn't mean that they're pacifists.


They're just prospective war criminals. As I said at the start, Hezb should have just cut their heads off and be done with the ridiculous "rescue operation".


I'm not saying Israel has a right to destroy Lebanese civil society, but if Hizbollah fires the rockets into Israel, Israel has a right to hit back.

Fine, but it's a moral code we're after:

The next time the Zionists enter land that doesn't belong to them to butcher the terrified population of Palestine, the Palestinian nation has a "right" to "hit back" by attacking the military, political and economic structures that sent the troops there, namely the Zionist state. Yes?

[Phalanx]

So, illegal occupations are an indication you desire "peace"? Go tell that to the Palestinians. The war against Egypt was a war hell-bent on destroying the only force in the region that can destroy the apartheid state, the united Arab working class.

Occupation of Egyptian and Syrian land was the only message that would get to their governments. Egypt was the power hell-bent on destroying Israel, not the other way around.


Would you call yourself a Zionist?

Yes, in the sense that I believe Israel has the right to exist. I am completely against the Israel government in all its forms however.


The "pre-48" borders are not legitimate. Israel is a colonialist-settler state backed by Western Imperialism, designed to protect Imperialist interests in the Middle East and make sure the Arab people are kept quiet. It's "borders" are merely the battlefields of the future, and its "cities" being kept warm for the glorious day when the Palestinian people have their land, every last square foot of it, returned to them, because it is theirs.

The borders are legitimate. Israel is not in existence because of Western necessity to 'keep the Arabs quiet'. The whole reason the West has come into conflict with the Middle East is because of its support of Israel. Israel was not the Wests solution, it was the catalyst to the conflict.

Aside from your dramatic rhetoric, what do you think should happen to the Israeli Jews after Palestine is 'liberated'?


It should be wiped off the map.

And here is where you and I differ by a wide margin.


They're just prospective war criminals. As I said at the start, Hezb should have just cut their heads off and be done with the ridiculous "rescue operation".

Well, under the Geneva convention, that action would make Hizbollah war criminals as well.


The next time the Zionist enter land that doesn't belong to them to butcher the terrified population of Palestine, the Palestinian nation has a "right" to "hit back" by attacking the military, political and economic structures that sent the troops there, namely the Zionist state. Yes?

And the next time Hizbollah enters Israeli land to butcher the terrified population of Israel, the Israeli nation has the right to hit back at Hizbollah.

Hitting civilian targets intentionally is never excusable. Suicide bombers are not an exceptable way of resistence.

[LSD]

The battle between Hizbollah and Israel is nothing like the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. If Israels doctrine was to kill or enslave the populace of Lebanon and create 'living room' for Israel, I could see the similarities.

It doesn't matter what the "motivation" is, Israel is invading a sovereign country and is killing thousands of innocent noncombattants in the process.

And, incidently, Zionism has always been predicated on Israel's "divine right" to occupy and deposses the Palestinian people. Lebanon might not technically be a part of Israel's "Liebensraum", but don't kid yourself, this is and always has been about ideology.


But Hizbollah was the one that attacked

And what was it exactly that they attacked? Two soldiers? Two members of an illegal occupying force that was engaged in one of the most condemned and despicable military occupations on earth.

In response to this justifyable attack on their military, Israel turned around and murder 1000 civilians.

In what world does that make sense?


Israel doesn't purposely target civilians.
Hezb does.

They both do.

Israel's purpose is to frighten the Lebonese people into submission, you don't get that unless you kill civilians. Oh sure, they make a big fuss about how they "selectively target" and "warn in advance", and yet somehow the IDF has managed to kill vastly more people than the "evil terrorists".

How exactly did that happen?

How did this "peaceful" and "selective" army manage to murder thousands of people?

Could it be that, *shock gasp*, they don't actually care about "a-rabs" after all? :o


Hezb "invaded" israel and attacked israeli troops
Israel responded.

Israeli troops deserve attacking. Besides, we all know that two soldiers is not a justification for war.

Israel's position is no different from Germany's at the eve of World War Two. They too claimed that their soldiers had been "attacked" and "harrassed".

Now whether that actually happened or not is somewhat ambiguous. Most schollars have concluded that the Germans made it up, but what if it had been real?

The Germans had been threatening Poland, illegally violating its territory, and harassing its citizens. If Poland had tried to put a stop to that by harassing or killing a few of the offending German soldiers, would that have justified the German invasion?

Imperial aggressors deserve to be attacked, imperial victims do not. There is no moral parallel between Israel and its victims and to assert that there is to be an apologist for imperialism.


Israel wants peace and security.

Everybody wants "peace" when they're winning. The Third Reich in 1944 wanted nothing more than to be "left in peace". Remember, after Stalingrad it was the allies who were invading and the Germans who were seeking "security".

Israeli would love nothing more than to freeze the status quo. They're occupying Palestine, Jerusalem, and half of Jordan. They are also poised to claim a nice chunk out of Lebanon. Obviously they want peace now so they can sit back and enjoy their spoils.

But imperialists do not deserve peace, their subjects do. And until the Palestinian people are freed, Israel has no right to expect "peace" or "security".


Israeli troops wear uniforms.
Hezb don't.

So what?

If Hezbollah had a 200 billion dollar budget and the support of a superpower, I'm sure they could "fight openly" too. As it is, all they've got is what they can scrounge from the rubble.


Yes, it would be better if the Russian and German workers refused to fight during the second world war instead of fighting for the interests of their national ruling class.

That wasn't my question.

I asked what the Russian people should have done, not the "Russian and German" ones. Obviously the best solution would have been if nationalism disappeared and all workers united under the banner of solidarity ...but that wasn't going to happen, and it's not going to happen now.

If uniting the Israeli and Lebanese working classes was a realistic option, it should absolutely be pursued, but nationalism and racism are not going to disappear just because we wish they would.

As long as Israeli imperialism threatens the middle east there will never be "peace" between Israeli and its neighbours.

The fact is war perpetuates stereotypes. People learn to hate their enemies and when their enemies are overwhelmingly of one race or one ethnicity, they learn to hate that race or ethnicity too.

The relationship between Israel, Judaism, and the "Jewish people" is a very complex, very multifaceted one, but expecting the Arab masses to understand that is like expecting Poles in WW2 to understand that "not all Germans" were Nazis.

You want to "educate" the middle east? Fine, but if you try telling Palestianians that the "Jews are no threat to you", they'll laugh in your face.

You know why most Russians don't hate Germans today? 'cause they've had fifty years of peace. That's just the way the world works.


No, the choice is not between imperialism and resistance, the choice you present is between imperialism and imperialism.

Except Hezbollah's "imperialism" is theoretical while Israel's imperialism is fact.

You're approaching this from an idealist perspective in which "ideology" and "opinion" counts more than action. It doesn't matter what Hezbollah would "like to do" or what it "believes in", all that matters is that right now it is fighting against imperialism. Whether it will be tomorrow is not our concern.

If Hezbollah were to become a realistic imperialist threat, then we would, of course, oppose it, but right now it does not have a shot in hell of lording over anyone, whereas Israel is more than capable of invading and occupying Lebanon.


The only reason why Hizbullah is fighting against Israel is beceause it suits their interests.

Well.... yeah. That kinda goes without saying. People only do things when it "suits their interests". And it just so happens that fighting Israel also "suits" our "interests".

You know that makes us? Allies.

[Phalanx]

And what was it exactly that they attacked? Two soldiers? Two members of an illegal occupying force that was engaged in one of the most condemned and despicable military occupations on earth.

Again, Israel wasn't occupying Lebanon, so Hizbollah provoked Israel.


In response to this justifyable attack on their military, Israel turned around and murder 1000 civilians.

It was Hizbollah that were the aggressors, I don't see how it was justifiable.

It wasn't Israels plan to murder 1000 civilians, but due to the fact that Hizbollah purposely put their rocket installations in heavily populated areas, Israel hit them regardless and subsequently many civilians were killed.


They both do.

Israel's purpose is to frighten the Lebonese people into submission, you don't get that unless you kill civilians. Oh sure, they make a big fuss about how they "selectively target" and "warn in advance", and yet somehow the IDF has managed to kill vastly more people than the "evil terrorists".

Again, Israel does not purposely strike civilians. Their plan isn't to frighten the Lebanese people, but to make them angry at Hizbollah. And they certainly wouldn't make the Lebanese people angry towards Hizbollah by hitting civilian areas.


Israeli troops deserve attacking. Besides, we all know that two soldiers is not a justification for war.

Israel's initial plan was to recapture the two soldiers. As soon as Hizbollah started firing rockets, they implemented a much bigger plan and it further escalated the conflict.


Israeli would love nothing more than to freeze the status quo. They're occupying Palestine, Jerusalem, and half of Jordan. They are also poised to claim a nice chunk out of Lebanon. Obviously they want peace now so they can sit back and enjoy their spoils.

No, Israel is not occupying Jordan. And their plan is not to take a 'nice chunk' out of Lebanon. Even the West wouldn't tolerate something like that, and Israel knows it.


So what?

If Hezbollah had a 200 billion dollar budget and the support of a superpower, I'm sure they could "fight openly" too. As it is, all they've got is what they can scrounge from the rubble.

Yeah, it's perfectly justifiable to hide amoungst the civilian population.

[Guerrilla22]

The problem isn't supporting one side or another side, the problem is organized religion, the cause of this whole fiasco, we shoudln't support any group with a religious agenda, we should support groups that seek to rid the world of religion, only then can the international community be truly liberated.

[Leo]

That wasn't my question.

I asked what the Russian people should have done, not the "Russian and German" ones.

What makes you think that they had a different mentality when they were going to war?


You want to "educate" the middle east?

Not in a war zone. I want to get people out of the war zone first.


Except Hezbollah's "imperialism" is theoretical while Israel's imperialism is fact.

No, not really. "Imperialism is not the creation of any one or of any group of states. It is the product of a particular stage of ripeness in the world development of capital, an innately international condition, an indivisible whole, that is recognisable only in all its relations, and from which no nation can hold aloof at will" - Rosa Luxemburg, Junius Pamphlet.

Now, the reason why people think Israel is the only imperialist power here is because it is the stronger power. But Hizbullah is, just like the Israeli state, sucking people up with nationalism for its own interests. The more workers are sucked up into nationalism, the more they will lose the ability to act as a class.


Well.... yeah. That kinda goes without saying. People only do things when it "suits their interests". And it just so happens that fighting Israel also "suits" our "interests".

You know that makes us? Allies.

So the 'enemy of our enemy is a friend'? Except it is not. Hizbullah is an anti-working class organization that forces workers into an imperialist war with nationalism. They are reactionary and imperialst.

We are not politicians, so we don't always support the enemy of our enemy. Sometimes enemy of our enemy can also be our enemy.

Revolutionaries don't ever take sides in inter-imperialist wars.

[Devrim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 03:32 AM


Yes, it would be better if the Russian and German workers refused to fight during the second world war instead of fighting for the interests of their national ruling class.

That wasn't my question.

I asked what the Russian people should have done, not the "Russian and German" ones. Obviously the best solution would have been if nationalism disappeared and all workers united under the banner of solidarity ...but that wasn't going to happen, and it's not going to happen now.

If uniting the Israeli and Lebanese working classes was a realistic option, it should absolutely be pursued, but nationalism and racism are not going to disappear just because we wish they would.

As long as Israeli imperialism threatens the middle east there will never be "peace" between Israeli and its neighbours.

The fact is war perpetuates stereotypes. People learn to hate their enemies and when their enemies are overwhelmingly of one race or one ethnicity, they learn to hate that race or ethnicity too.

The relationship between Israel, Judaism, and the "Jewish people" is a very complex, very multifaceted one, but expecting the Arab masses to understand that is like expecting Poles in WW2 to understand that "not all Germans" were Nazis.

You want to "educate" the middle east? Fine, but if you try telling Palestianians that the "Jews are no threat to you", they'll laugh in your face.

You know why most Russians don't hate Germans today? 'cause they've had fifty years of peace. That's just the way the world works.


No, the choice is not between imperialism and resistance, the choice you present is between imperialism and imperialism.

Except Hezbollah's "imperialism" is theoretical while Israel's imperialism is fact.

You're approaching this from an idealist perspective in which "ideology" and "opinion" counts more than action. It doesn't matter what Hezbollah would "like to do" or what it "believes in", all that matters is that right now it is fighting against imperialism. Whether it will be tomorrow is not our concern.

If Hezbollah were to become a realistic imperialist threat, then we would, of course, oppose it, but right now it does not have a shot in hell of lording over anyone, whereas Israel is more than capable of invading and occupying Lebanon.


The only reason why Hizbullah is fighting against Israel is beceause it suits their interests.

Well.... yeah. That kinda goes without saying. People only do things when it "suits their interests". And it just so happens that fighting Israel also "suits" our "interests".

You know that makes us? Allies.

Again, another leftist who prefers to talk about 'people' rather than class. One the subject of the Second World War, of course the Russian workers should have fought against the Russian state where possible. The Second World War was a terrible time for the working class, and for revolutionaries. Very few managed to avoid being drawn into the ideology of national defence. It was as much an imperialist war as the first one, and workers should have fought against it.
Obviously the best solution would have been if nationalism disappeared and all workers united under the banner of solidarity ...but that wasn't going to happen, and it's not going to happen now. Here you are right. It wasn't going to happen then. It didn't help though that so-called 'revolutionaries' were acting as recruiting sergeants for the imperialist powers. When workers resist war it is obvious that it is not going to be at exactly the same level in all combatant states. In the first World War for example the Russians made a revolution first, and then the Germans. Also, you are right when you say that it is not going to happen now. That doesn't mean, however, that revolutionaries should abandon a class perspective, and become cheerleaders for different capitalist factions.
If uniting the Israeli and Lebanese working classes was a realistic option, it should absolutely be pursued, but nationalism and racism are not going to disappear just because we wish they would.

As long as Israeli imperialism threatens the middle east there will never be "peace" between Israeli and its neighbours.

The fact is war perpetuates stereotypes. People learn to hate their enemies and when their enemies are overwhelmingly of one race or one ethnicity, they learn to hate that race or ethnicity too.

Here you begin to come close to the heart of the problem. War does increase nationalism, and the working class in the entire Middle East is being pulled deeper, and deeper into a cycle of war, sectarianism, and ethnic hatred. There is no solution to this war now, but in the longer term, the job of revolutionaries is to take part in the struggles of their class for its own interests. A class that is capable of fighting for itself is not a class that will be easily pulled into capitalist war.

Fine, but if you try telling Palestianians that the "Jews are no threat to you", they'll laugh in your face.
The working class in Palestine is probably the most defeated in the entire region. It has completely lost any capacity to act on its own behalf, and has been pulled completely behind the national flag. I feel that the language you use reflects this problem. There is no talk about class interests instead you just talk about the 'Jews'.

Well.... yeah. That kinda goes without saying. People only do things when it "suits their interests". And it just so happens that fighting Israel also "suits" our "interests".

Why is it in the interest of Lebanese workers to die fighting Israel? I can't see how it suits the interests of the working class at all to be dragged into capitalist war.


You know that makes us? Allies.

No, actually it makes them anti-working class nationalists, and you an angry young man sitting behind his computer in North America fantasising about armed resistance. Allies are people fighting on the same side, not people fantasising about it from thousands of miles away.

Devrim

[DORRI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 02:00 AM
Israel wants peace and security.

you're kidding

from israel to lebanon (http://fromisrael2lebanon.info/pa/index.php)

[Phalanx]

The goal of this campaign isn't to completely crush Lebanon, it's to wipe out Hizbollah. And Israel believes by wiping out Hizbollah they can achieve peace.


Revolutionaries don't ever take sides in inter-imperialist wars.

Exactly

[James]

Dorri,

All Israeli wars are land-grabs - Israel has never been in a war in which it hasn't occupied land afterwards, can you explain this?

Name the wars in which israel launched the first attack. Typically israel has fought to survive, then would then invade to defeat the aggressors (its called taking the fight to the enemy. It isn't an israeli tactic. The romans for example are famous for doing it). Then they get what is called the loot of war and the making of a political statement: "don't want to loose rich lands? don't attack us". It's a simple logic which the egyptians soon picked up on.


Anyway, Hizbollah cannot be "destroyed" because it's not just a random group of terrorists, it's a part of a national resistance movement. The "individual" Hezbollah fighters are just small parts of a wider struggle. For every Hezbollah soldier they kill, 3 will take his place.

Debatable. It is evident to most sane people that hezb have brought the wrath of israel onto lebanon.
True hot heads who get indoctrinated by anti israeli propaganda will want to become martyra's, but that is to be expected. The sensible will realise that joining such a movement is counter productive to the interests of lebanon. The best thing to possibly come out of this is lebanon pulling itself together and in the future making sure that it has control over the whole of the country.



In any case, if this was a war merelly to destroy Hezbollah, it would be fought very differently. Why, for instance, would you attack civilian Lebanese infastructure (just like they did in Gaza) if your goal was merely hurting Hezbollah? Why would you kill civilians if you knew this would only strengthen anti-Israeli opinion

Are you like 5?
you arn't very well read on security issues...

Hezb are a terrorist organisation that hides within a population. Aye it enjoys a degree of popular support so in many cases this is done with the consent of elements of the population (thus further entrenching themselves into the population). They don't make their own roads. They don't store all of their weapon capability in the middle of no where. Indeed it suits their objectives to use civilian structures etc as shelter for launching such attacks.
Missile strikes at israeli civilians leads to, it is garunteed, israeli military response. They will attempt to destroy those who are attempting to destroy them. Thus they will bomb the location. Hezb make this location civilian on purpose. This forces israel to target civilian structures.
Thus for israel to attack hezb it must lead to israel to destroy civlian targets. This then leads to international outcry etc. Israel is seen as "the bad guy". Hezb is seen as "the noble freedom fighter, defending the civilians cruely targetted by the jews".

Lets not forget hezb are racist. Israel warns all civilians in the area to leave (the claim that israel wants to kill innocents is destroyed by this fact). Hezb has recently begun to warn ARABS to leave. Not jews.
Link this to their iranian backers. It isn't hard and even an 8 yearold can see the link and implications.

So there you go, israel is not conducting a "hearts and minds" operation. It know's that it is hated and anyway, it is being attacked right now as we speak. Israeli troops walking with flowers will just lead to more israeli deaths. Israel is eliminating the threat directly. It is also targetting the support network of hezb. Thus means of transportation and communication are targetted. It really is obvious.

And what may i ask is the use of that link? It is just propaganda. It doesn't offer any proof of your statement. It just reinforces what you already have got yourself to believe.

[James]

sorry, most of that was aimed at YKTMX. Same avatar confused old james.

[DurgleTheTurtle]

Originally posted by Fist of Blood+Aug 10 2006, 01:15 AM--> (Fist of Blood @ Aug 10 2006, 01:15 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 07:56 PM

Fist of [email protected] 10 2006, 08:58 AM
Yet you adamantly support an organization that wishes to eliminate all jews?
Neither Hizbollah or Hamas advocate this, get your facts straight.
"if they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." - Hassan Nasrallah (Secretary General of Hezbollah) [/b]
Dont u remember arial sharons famous qeote? he says that he will drive the arabs into the sea and have its divine something.
Saying to kill all arabs(the whole middle east and north africa) is much worse than saying to kill jews who are about 3% population of the earth.

[DurgleTheTurtle]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 06:03 PM
Dorri,

All Israeli wars are land-grabs - Israel has never been in a war in which it hasn't occupied land afterwards, can you explain this?

Name the wars in which israel launched the first attack. Typically israel has fought to survive, then would then invade to defeat the aggressors (its called taking the fight to the enemy. It isn't an israeli tactic. The romans for example are famous for doing it). Then they get what is called the loot of war and the making of a political statement: "don't want to loose rich lands? don't attack us". It's a simple logic which the egyptians soon picked up on.


Anyway, Hizbollah cannot be "destroyed" because it's not just a random group of terrorists, it's a part of a national resistance movement. The "individual" Hezbollah fighters are just small parts of a wider struggle. For every Hezbollah soldier they kill, 3 will take his place.

Debatable. It is evident to most sane people that hezb have brought the wrath of israel onto lebanon.
True hot heads who get indoctrinated by anti israeli propaganda will want to become martyra's, but that is to be expected. The sensible will realise that joining such a movement is counter productive to the interests of lebanon. The best thing to possibly come out of this is lebanon pulling itself together and in the future making sure that it has control over the whole of the country.



In any case, if this was a war merelly to destroy Hezbollah, it would be fought very differently. Why, for instance, would you attack civilian Lebanese infastructure (just like they did in Gaza) if your goal was merely hurting Hezbollah? Why would you kill civilians if you knew this would only strengthen anti-Israeli opinion

Are you like 5?
you arn't very well read on security issues...

Hezb are a terrorist organisation that hides within a population. Aye it enjoys a degree of popular support so in many cases this is done with the consent of elements of the population (thus further entrenching themselves into the population). They don't make their own roads. They don't store all of their weapon capability in the middle of no where. Indeed it suits their objectives to use civilian structures etc as shelter for launching such attacks.
Missile strikes at israeli civilians leads to, it is garunteed, israeli military response. They will attempt to destroy those who are attempting to destroy them. Thus they will bomb the location. Hezb make this location civilian on purpose. This forces israel to target civilian structures.
Thus for israel to attack hezb it must lead to israel to destroy civlian targets. This then leads to international outcry etc. Israel is seen as "the bad guy". Hezb is seen as "the noble freedom fighter, defending the civilians cruely targetted by the jews".

Lets not forget hezb are racist. Israel warns all civilians in the area to leave (the claim that israel wants to kill innocents is destroyed by this fact). Hezb has recently begun to warn ARABS to leave. Not jews.
Link this to their iranian backers. It isn't hard and even an 8 yearold can see the link and implications.

So there you go, israel is not conducting a "hearts and minds" operation. It know's that it is hated and anyway, it is being attacked right now as we speak. Israeli troops walking with flowers will just lead to more israeli deaths. Israel is eliminating the threat directly. It is also targetting the support network of hezb. Thus means of transportation and communication are targetted. It really is obvious.

And what may i ask is the use of that link? It is just propaganda. It doesn't offer any proof of your statement. It just reinforces what you already have got yourself to believe.
I dont understand wats happening, Israel continues to kill and kidnap arabs from their homes then one day hezbollah takes 2 soldiers from israel, not to kill them but to trade them with arab prisoners that israel has. Then Israel goes bombs a whole country with non stop bombings.

this is like if you throw a rock at me ill burn ur house and kill all ur family.

[beltov]

Hi,

I'd just like to support Devrim and Leo's defence of REAL internationalist positions against all this poison of more-or-less 'conditional' support for Hezbollah.


Originally posted by "Devrimankara"
...War does increase nationalism, and the working class in the entire Middle East is being pulled deeper, and deeper into a cycle of war, sectarianism, and ethnic hatred. There is no solution to this war now, but in the longer term, the job of revolutionaries is to take part in the struggles of their class for its own interests. A class that is capable of fighting for itself is not a class that will be easily pulled into capitalist war.

Absolutely!

B.

[James]

this is like if you throw a rock at me ill burn ur house and kill all ur family.


Well from the israeli perspective there seems to be an element of truth in this.

Many israeli's do not believe that a significant number of their neighbours will ever bring themselves around to accepting the existance of israel. As such reasoning can not be used.
Israel refused to cooperate with hamas, because hamas refused to even acknowledge the existance of israel. What can be done with such people? It is all very well saying that israel will not win friends by this military operation... but that really isn't the point.
Israeli's have come to believe that it is only sheer force that is understood by some it's neighbours. Take Egypt; now the two countries have reasonable relations. Many israeli's will put this down to israeli displays of power earlier in the century.

So in a sense you are correct. Israel is saying "if you throw a rock at me ill burn ur house and kill all ur family".

The obvious lesson from this is therefore do not throw a rock at me.

[YKTMX]

Name the wars in which israel launched the first attack.

Well, they invaded Egypt in '56 and they also, as everyone accepts, launched a preemptive attack in the Six-Day War.


Then they get what is called the loot of war and the making of a political statement: "don't want to loose rich lands? don't attack us".

The State of Israel was formed on stolen land. When the Zionist militias forced the Palestinian people out their homes, condemning them to decades of homelessness and oppression, they were asserting the basic instincts of their movement. Zionist ideology says that the Jews should rule over all of Palestine and the "Holy Land", therefore Zionism is an inherently expansionist ideology.


Debatable. It is evident to most sane people that hezb have brought the wrath of israel onto lebanon.

Certainly. The Sqwuak Box and the Murdoch press is filled with the "sane" then isn't it. The idea that Hezbollah "provoked" Israel is absurd for quite a few reasons, but here's two:

1) Israel has been invading, occupying and bombing Lebanon for decades. Considering that Hezb didn't even exist until '85, your timeline seems to be pretty crap.

2) The capture of the Zionist soldiers may have been the "context" but it wasn't the reason Israel invaded. Their goal, quite clearly, is to reoccupy south Lebanon and regain control over the terrain they lost when the resistance kicked them out in 2000. This is shown by the fact that Israel's "war plan" had already been devised before the current "crisis". That is, their actions are pro-active to reactive.


The best thing to possibly come out of this is lebanon pulling itself together and in the future making sure that it has control over the whole of the country.

Stupid. Do you seriously think that this war has increased the chances of the Lebanese state becoming the single political and military force in Lebanon? Does anyone think that? Considering that the Lebanese army is pretty much a busted flush led by lackey cowards, and that the only people willing to defend Lebanon from the baby killers are Hezb and the other resistance fighters, the only thing this war will do is bolster support and membership of Hezbollah. Which, by-the-by, can only be a good thing.


Hezb are a terrorist organisation that hides within a population.

Hezbollah are a national liberation movement who don't "hide" anywhere. They fight like lions, which is why so many Zionists are being sent back to Tel-Aviv in black bags.


Thus they will bomb the location. Hezb make this location civilian on purpose. This forces israel to target civilian structures.

Targetting civilian structures is a war crime. You can't butcher innocents because you suspect your enemy might "be there". Presumably you wouldn't support a suicide bomb in a club where IDF soldiers were known to spend time "off-time"?

Israel is involved in a campaign designed to terrorize a civilian population, annihilate the Lebanese state and provoke Syria and Iran into a wider war. Their ultimate objective being, one would presume, to liquidate as many Arabs as possible, crush any resistance to future expansions of the State of Israel and give them "leg-room" for their historical Project i.e the genocide of the Palestinian nation. One would also presume nuclear holocaust could be on the agenda, given that Israeli government have said in the past they'd be willing to use their nuclear weapons.


Lets not forget hezb are racist. Israel warns all civilians in the area to leave (the claim that israel wants to kill innocents is destroyed by this fact).

But then again, the Zionists also fire on people leaving Civilian areas and declare likely exit points, like roads, as "out of service".

So, stay and they'll kill you, try to leave and they'll kill you.

Everyone wins.


Israeli troops walking with flowers will just lead to more israeli deaths.

Good. It's quite clear the Zionists are losing the war, which is why the normally belligerent Israeli people are even beginning to question the war.

The more IDF soldiers die in the desert, the better.

[James]

Well, they invaded Egypt in '56 and they also, as everyone accepts, launched a preemptive attack in the Six-Day War.

hmm well i shouldn't have said "first strike" as that does not automatically equate to "who started it". There is a context between israel and egypt. For example 1948/9 "al-Nakba". And a more short-term context too; Egypt had just seized isreali shipping whilst it attempted to enter the suez; supposedly open to all international shipping. Thus we could be picky and say the whole war was caused by egypt and it's arab allies who attacked israel as soon as it became independent. Thus it is a case of survival.
The six day war... well what was israel meant to do after a period of worsening relations combined with a building up of egyptian forces on the israeli border (just after it had sent UN peace keepers packing). After being attacked in the 40s israel had learnt it's lesson. No doubt though you will argue that egypt had no intension of starting another battle. That's your choice...



The State of Israel was formed on stolen land.

I didn't know you believed in land ownership. Interesting communist... Especially ownership on the basis of skin colour!
This is a very complicated debate which has arguments on both sides. Israeli's will argue that it was their land in the first place. Hence judea. Whatever, the fact of the matter is that the UN set it up after the brit's, who looked after the land following the collapse of the ottoman empire, had promised it to them. etc etc etc



When the Zionist militias forced the Palestinian people out their homes, condemning them to decades of homelessness and oppression,

Yes and their arab friends aided them lots didn't they! The abuse of pal's by jordians etc is often ignored by those on the left. When it is a white man doing it it is much better..



Certainly. The Sqwuak Box and the Murdoch press is filled with the "sane" then isn't it. The idea that Hezbollah "provoked" Israel is absurd for quite a few reasons, but here's two:

1) Israel has been invading, occupying and bombing Lebanon for decades. Considering that Hezb didn't even exist until '85, your timeline seems to be pretty crap.
WHY
Why don't you ask yourself WHY they were doing this. You are so incredibly biased, thus you won't see anything that you don't want to see. I was just like you before "down with israel" yada yada yada, but when you actually look into it, and take the time to look at the israeli perspective, everything suddenly looses it's black and white clarity.
Israel had been attacked by militias operating out of lebanon. thus they intervened. What else could be done? they then withdrew. It's happening again. Thus israel has to go back in. No one else is going to look after israeli's so israel has to do it.


2) The capture of the Zionist soldiers may have been the "context" but it wasn't the reason Israel invaded. Their goal, quite clearly, is to reoccupy south Lebanon and regain control over the terrain they lost when the resistance kicked them out in 2000.

And why would they want that? Buffer zone explanations are linked to hezb action, so again it comes back to the existance of hezb and other hostile groups.


This is shown by the fact that Israel's "war plan" had already been devised before the current "crisis". That is, their actions are pro-active to reactive.

Don't be pathetic. It would be stupidity not to plan for eventualities.
Do you go crazy when there is a fire and someone uses a fire extinguisher? Do you accuse those in charge of "knowing of" and "planning" the fire? Hence the presence of the fire extinguisher...

why exactly would israel want to be in that land? (i do however except that israel has decided to keep some rich farm land. Hey don't get me wrong, i'm not blind supporter of israel here - they have made mistakes. many! hence why their PM will be ousted once the conflict is over).


Hezbollah are a national liberation movement

Whatever. they are terrorists.


who don't "hide" anywhere.

Yes they do. They hide within the population. For obvious reasons. If they fought a pitched battle they would loose horrifically.

They fight like lions, which is why so many Zionists are being sent back to Tel-Aviv in black bags

They "fight like lions"... aye sending rockets at civilian areas on purpose, designed to kill and maim women and children (oooooh but they arn't lebanonese so it doesn't matter does it!) is well lion like...

israel has suffered casulties because it is pushing forward into enemy territory against a well prepared and armed (hurrah to iran!) enemy. Not because they "fight like lions"...


Targetting civilian structures is a war crime.

Hezb are therefore the greatist war criminals. Lets try them...


You can't butcher innocents because you suspect your enemy might "be there".

Hence why warnings are given... a strategic sacrifice which they don't have to make.
And do you apply your accusations against hezb?
Or are you a classic "the end's justifies the means"?



Presumably you wouldn't support a suicide bomb in a club where IDF soldiers were known to spend time "off-time"?

No hezb would just target it anyway wouldn't they. More women and children the better.
Similar with pal "lions".


Israel is involved in a campaign designed to terrorize a civilian population, annihilate the Lebanese state and provoke Syria and Iran into a wider war.

proof?


Their ultimate objective being, one would presume, to liquidate as many Arabs as possible, crush any resistance to future expansions of the State of Israel and give them "leg-room" for their historical Project i.e the genocide of the Palestinian nation. One would also presume nuclear holocaust could be on the agenda, given that Israeli government have said in the past they'd be willing to use their nuclear weapons.


Or... israeli security. Nah lets ignore that! let's go back to the evil jew being a baby killer.

[Hiero]

So in a sense you are correct. Israel is saying "if you throw a rock at me ill burn ur house and kill all ur family".

The obvious lesson from this is therefore do not throw a rock at me.

The oppressed always have weaker arms at the beging of the liberation. Their actions of liberation alway face two fold or five fold reprecussions. Though in all the wars of liberation, these people continued to fight, and most succeded. So how can you tell the oppressed not to follow their comrades examples? Should they always be discouraged form fighting due to threat of violence?

There comes a point when the oppressed people have to fight. This i the same case as thoose oppressed by Israel. If people took your defatist adive, then there still would be colonailism, lack of civil and worker rights in the world.

[YKTMX]

hmm well i shouldn't have said "first strike" as that does not automatically equate to "who started it".

Doublespeak.

2+2=4


Egypt had just seized isreali shipping whilst it attempted to enter the suez; supposedly open to all international shipping. Thus we could be picky and say the whole war was caused by egypt and it's arab allies who attacked israel as soon as it became independent. Thus it is a case of survival.

Interesting. So Egypt is what then? The only nation on Earth that can't decide for itself which cargo or ships it allows within its borders?


I didn't know you believed in land ownership. Interesting communist... Especially ownership on the basis of skin colour!

I believe in justice. And stealing land, removing people from land they've worked for generations and displacing them to hellish refugee camps is unjust.


Israeli's will argue that it was their land in the first place. Hence judea.

I don't see the relevance. Unless one believes in the religious significance.


The abuse of pal's by jordians etc is often ignored by those on the left. When it is a white man doing it it is much better.

I don't understand the point. The Arab ruling classes are duplicitious so we should ignore the crimes of Zionism? How does one follow the other.

And the Jews aren't "white" as I'm sure even a casual glance at the historical record would reveal to you.


Thus israel has to go back in. No one else is going to look after israeli's so israel has to do it.

I'm afraid your account just doesn't bear any resembelance to the facts of the situation. Firstly, Israel is constantly involved in battles with "militias" because it doesn't respect any Arab's nation borders. They've been constantly violating Lebanese airspace and occupying yet more land that doesn't belong to them - well before this latest invasion.


They hide within the population. For obvious reasons. If they fought a pitched battle they would loose horrifically.

Hiding means deliberately concealing yourself, which is not what Hezb fighters do. They're using classic urban guerilla targets of moving in small groups, keeping mobile, moving quickly in terrain they know well. The fact that the Zionists can't handle this, and in some kind of childish rage decide to just blow everything up, speaks to the utter contempt in which they hold Lebanese and all Arab people.


israel has suffered casulties because it is pushing forward into enemy territory against a well prepared and armed (hurrah to iran!) enemy. Not because they "fight like lions"...

Yes, thanks to the Iranians, Hezb are better armed than the Zionists expected, which is why so many of them are being (happily) killed. But it would be somewhat hypocritical for Zionists to complain about Iranian "interference" given that the Americans have been arming the Zionists to the teeth for decades.

The reason they're losing is because it's not a battle they can possibly win militarily, because they're not fighting a standing army. Hezb fighters are highly motivated and operationally efficient, the Zionists are big and cumbersome and poorly motivated. As long as ten Lebanese people survive, there will be Hezbollah and there will be resistance.

Usually, the Israeli population loves nothing more than seeing dead Arabs piled up, but even they, and hence the conscripts in the IDF, are sceptical about either the possibilities of victory in this war or the worth of the conflict.


And do you apply your accusations against hezb?
Or are you a classic "the end's justifies the means"?

I think the rocket attacks are wrong. I support all Hezb actions in the war other than those.


No hezb would just target it anyway wouldn't they.

I answered your question, but you dodged mine.

If the Palestinian targetted a club that IDF soldiers were known to go frequently, would this be a legitimate target in your view?


Or... israeli security. Nah lets ignore that! let's go back to the evil jew being a baby killer.

Well, who knows. The majority of Israelis are Jews and they are slaughtering babies on a prodigous scale. Draw your own conclusions.

[DORRI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 10:35 PM
sorry, most of that was aimed at YKTMX. Same avatar confused old james.
=)) I was wondering what on the earth you have to tell me!

[Leo]

Originally posted by YKTMX
Hezbollah are a national liberation movement

And as an internationalist from the middle east, I am really sick of petty bougeoise leftists whose asses are comfortable in the west, telling middle eastern workers to go die behind their fucking national flag. You have no difference from the people who support Israel, you support Hizbullah because they harm Israel, people who support Israel support it because Israel harms the Hizbullah. Despite the pathetic petty bourgeoise fantasies you have about the Hizbullah and ressistance, they are not a bit better then the Israeli state.

[DORRI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 03:04 AM

I dont understand wats happening, Israel continues to kill and kidnap arabs from their homes then one day hezbollah takes 2 soldiers from israel, not to kill them but to trade them with arab prisoners that israel has. Then Israel goes bombs a whole country with non stop bombings.

this is like if you throw a rock at me ill burn ur house and kill all ur family.
the problem is as simple as you described.
I'm sorry for those who try to justify israeli madness

[Phalanx]

Interesting. So Egypt is what then? The only nation on Earth that can't decide for itself which cargo or ships it allows within its borders?

No, it's the fact that Egypt seized the shipping, not simply turning the ships away.


I don't understand the point. The Arab ruling classes are duplicitious so we should ignore the crimes of Zionism? How does one follow the other.

No, we shouldn't ignore the crimes of the Israeli government, but ignoring the plight of Arabs caused by their own governments is a crime in itself.


I'm afraid your account just doesn't bear any resembelance to the facts of the situation. Firstly, Israel is constantly involved in battles with "militias" because it doesn't respect any Arab's nation borders. They've been constantly violating Lebanese airspace and occupying yet more land that doesn't belong to them - well before this latest invasion.

Well, maybe the Arab governments should reign in those militias, no?

Occupying more land? You mean the Shebaa Farms? Maybe if Hizbollah tried to diplomatically get the land back they'd solve their problems, but sparking a war between itself and Israel is by no means justified.


Hiding means deliberately concealing yourself, which is not what Hezb fighters do. They're using classic urban guerilla targets of moving in small groups, keeping mobile, moving quickly in terrain they know well.

Of course, they're doing both. They deliberately place rocket launchers and the like in heavily civilian-populated areas. Can you say human shields?


Yes, thanks to the Iranians, Hezb are better armed than the Zionists expected, which is why so many of them are being (happily) killed. But it would be somewhat hypocritical for Zionists to complain about Iranian "interference" given that the Americans have been arming the Zionists to the teeth for decades.

And it was a bit hypocritical when Arab governments complained about the U.S. giving aid to Israel when they were receiving record-breaking arms shipments from the U.S.S.R.

Israel probably wouldn't be so upset if it wasn't a terrorist organization that was receiving the arms.


Usually, the Israeli population loves nothing more than seeing dead Arabs piled up, but even they, and hence the conscripts in the IDF, are sceptical about either the possibilities of victory in this war or the worth of the conflict.

There you go again, with your reactionary rhetoric towards and entire populace. Frothing at the mouth isn't normal you know.


Well, who knows. The majority of Israelis are Jews and they are slaughtering babies on a prodigous scale. Draw your own conclusions.

Of course, us evil Jews take every chance we get to slaughter Arab children.

[dso79]

They deliberately place rocket launchers and the like in heavily civilian-populated areas. Can you say human shields?

One of the reasons why Hizbullah is so successful is that they don’t operate near civilians. They usually stay away from them in order to avoid spies and collaborators. Rocket launchers are usually located in remote, vegetated areas because it‘s much easier to hide them there than in small villages.

Human shields wouldn’t work in this situation anyway, since the Israelis don’t care if they hit civilians, and Hizbullah knows that.

Check out this article:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14252.htm

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 11:32 AM
Human shields wouldn’t work in this situation anyway, since the Israelis don’t care if they hit civilians, and Hizbullah knows that.
God, "collective punishment" must be one of the most sickening phrases I've ever heard.

What Israel needs most of all right now is a bloody nose, and unfortunately there is no perfect class-conscious internationalist vanguard proletarian socialist working class movement of the masses there to give it to them. So I guess Hizbollah will have to suffice for now.