The issue of communist non-proletarians

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Like another member on this forum commented:

2. From what I'm getting- a lot of you don't see yourselves as "working class". Instead you seem to be viewing things from the top and referring to "THE working class". I personally see myself as a worker/proletariat and I don't invision myself and others being able to simply walk into factories and warehouses and peacefully taking over production.
I have noticed the same thing. Why do you keep distancing yourself from the working class like that? Are you not a proletarian yourself? What kind of trend is this?

Noticed it several times but now I would really like to see an answer because this struck me and I am very curious. It seems to be a trend among many communists.

[rebelworker]

This is abig critique i had/have with vanguardist style thinking.

Many people who adhere to this ideology (Leninism in all its 57 variaties) see themselves as revolutionary leaders who have something to teach the simple workers. Often these people cme from more upper-middle class backgrounds and havnt really worked for a living.

People who put proletarian democracy as central to succesful communist revolution are dismissed as childish or utopian, I beleive this is because these self proclaimed vanguardists are heavily influenced by class prejudices they have not overcome. They esentially see themselves as leading the same role after the revolution as they hold now in sociaty, that is the political class of decisionmakers and cultural or political managers.

You will notice that many of use are very aware as our status as proles and speak as such. We also tend to be alot more critical of Substitutionist thinking (the party ruling on behalf of the workers) that is all the rage with collage radicals.

[Janus]

It seems to be a trend among many communists.
Among elitist communists who see the working class as a group whom they must discipline and lead into the revolution. This kind of trend has been going on for a while.

[More Fire for the People]

Just as a note, the working class and proletariat are not exactly the same. Proletarians are workign class but not all working classes are proletarian. The proletariat is the working class under capitalism, the living negators of capitalism.

[RaiseYourVoice]

I cant refer to myself as working class, because other than part time work, i went to school only till now. i will have 9 month of mandotory service now and than i will prolly go to university (which will i guess include another part time job to finance my living)

that doesnt make me a vanguardist though, i have met many people that saw themselves as some kind of savior and i dispise that mentality. if people no matter from what backround arent communists i try to inspire them, talk to them, discuss ideas etc. but i would never try to enforce my views on others or speak for them.

though i am not working class myself at least today, i still think i can help in the revolutionary process like everybody else.

[Sadena Meti]

Finally, in times when the class struggle nears the decisive hour, the progress of dissolution going on within the ruling class, in fact within the whole range of old society, assumes such a violent, glaring character, that a small section of the ruling class cuts itself adrift, and joins the revolutionary class, the class that holds the future in its hands. Just as, therefore, at an earlier period, a section of the nobility went over to the bourgeoisie, so now a portion of the bourgeoisie goes over to the proletariat, and in particular, a portion of the bourgeois ideologists, who have raised themselves to the level of comprehending theoretically the historical movement as a whole.

- Communist Manifesto

Not every communist revolutionary (past, present, future) came from a classic working class background. Revolutionary class and working class are not synonyms.

[Whitten]

I believe if you were to annalyse the class concentrations of proletarians in leninism and the anarchist trends, you would find a higher concentration of proletarians following leninism, than anarchism.

I'm born into a family of self employed manual labourers, making enough money to hang arround the lower middle class regions for the most part. Was I born into the proletarian class? the petty-bourgeois class? Does it matter? What matters is I will never be a capitalist and I will fight for what i consider right. Or would you suggest that only proletarians can be communists?

Marx was hardly a proletarian, Engles was very rich, and Che wasnt exactly poor.

[violencia.Proletariat]

I have noticed the same thing. Why do you keep distancing yourself from the working class like that? Are you not a proletarian yourself? What kind of trend is this?

Why does referring to 'the proletariat" mean you aren't a part of it? Would you rather members say, "we the proletariat.." that sounds really stupid. When discussing theory its not strange for people to speak of classes in a withdrawn sense.

In other words you all are over reacting.

[Delta]

I agree with violencia. If everyone just said used "we", we'd all be wondering "who the hell is we?"

[Ander]

Well, I'm a member of the middle class, maybe upper middle class even. Is this something you will all hold against me? My reason for being a leftist is because I see all this injustice occurring around me and I want to do something about it.

Once I graduate from high school and I'm on my own I will probably be a working class student...

Does it really matter though? The way I feel should be enough...and the way I feel is pissed off at this shit every day.

[More Fire for the People]

Well, I'm a member of the middle class, maybe upper middle class even. Is this something you will all hold against me? My reason for being a leftist is because I see all this injustice occurring around me and I want to do something about it.

There isn't a middle or upper class. There's the working class - those who sell their work to capitalists for a living ex. cashiers, waiters, construction workers, etc., the petty-bourgeoisie - those who live off their own work ex. contractors and intellectuals, and then there is the bourgeoisie / capitalists who make a living off the work of others.

[Sadena Meti]

Middle and Upper class refer more to income and lifestyle than role in society. In that context, the term working class is used by people who don't want to say lower class (it would mean admiting that the real workers get paid the least)

I came from a upper-middle / lower-upper class petty bourgeoisie background. I am by definition a proletarian, as in my day job I perform a skilled service but am unable to ply my trade without those that hold the means of production. However, my income level puts me in the middle class.

So, what class am I, and am I allowed to be a communist revolutionary? :ph34r:

*edit*
And if not, how am I going to get rid of all these guns and flags?!?

[Floyce White]

To answer the original question, many comrades are accustomed to the "Marxist-Leninist" practice of discussing social groups from the perspective of object rather than subject. There is nothing inherently wrong with either. Any statement can be reworded in the other perspective.

The upper class is those families who claim to own things used by others. The lower class is those families who do not.

Upper-class people are anti-communist. They cannot be communists no matter what label they decide to call themselves. Lower-class people tend to do communist struggle no matter what activities they are involved in, but they are miseducated and their struggles are co-opted by upper-class activists. For this reason, upper-class persons must be excluded from communist organizations.

[rebelworker]

I never meant to imply that unless your super exploited you should not be a revolutionary, just that there is a tendancy for people from more influential and educated(in the capitalist society sense) bacground who declare themselves the vanguard of the working class, claim to know whats best for us and dont see the irony in it.

Also weather people want to admit it or not, a four class analysis (prole, burge, petty burge and lumpen) is good for analysing some things but it is hardly complete. terms like middle class and intelegencia (or political class as identified by chomsky) are usefl defenitions when dicusing certain trends.

Finally, I think I aluded to the fact that there are more working class folowers of Leninism than anarchism. There are also more upper class followers of leninism. The point I was making is that Leninism is on the way out, and if the revolutionary left is going to fully recover I sugest lloking at the sucess of other more libertarian ideologies that were more prominent in the working class before Leninism, through an unfortunate set of surcumstances took revolution in a burocratic and authoritarian direction.

[afrikaNOW]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 09:27 PM

I have noticed the same thing. Why do you keep distancing yourself from the working class like that? Are you not a proletarian yourself? What kind of trend is this?

Why does referring to 'the proletariat" mean you aren't a part of it? Would you rather members say, "we the proletariat.." that sounds really stupid. When discussing theory its not strange for people to speak of classes in a withdrawn sense.

In other words you all are over reacting.
Yeah i thinks its over reacting. If you are Irish, you may say the Irish have to stand up against British oppression. By saying the Irish, you are making the group a collective and you if Irish are part of that collective inherently.

No need for saying I, the working class or we the working class. I and the rest of the working class lol.

[Hiero]

I sugest lloking at the sucess of other more libertarian ideologies

What succes?

[OneBrickOneVoice]

If communism is classless then why should you be descriminated based on class? As long as you believe in the ideology it shouldn't really matter. What are you supposed to do? change the way you think because of your class? What if the job you find fulfilling puts you in a higher class? In anycase, we've gone over this before in previous thread and decided that class shouldn't matter. Also no matter what most communists will be working class or peasants so it doesn't really matter...