Revolutionary Training Camps

[GlassDraggon]

I'm willing to bet that there are well over 1000 tactical/urban combat training camps in the United States. All of which are filled with right wing/libertarian gun nuts or paranoid semi-schizophrenics (maybe I'm being redundant).

Where are the Revolutionary Leftist tactical camps? There needs to be a Leftist response to the rapid militarization of the far right.

-R

[Tower of Bebel]

They are in all sorts of public camps. Most leftists are common citizens.

[An archist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 08:26 PM
I'm willing to bet that there are well over 1000 tactical/urban combat training camps in the United States. All of which are filled with right wing/libertarian gun nuts or paranoid semi-schizophrenics (maybe I'm being redundant).

Where are the Revolutionary Leftist tactical camps? There needs to be a Leftist response to the rapid militarization of the far right.

-R
no-one's stopping you from starting yer own.
if you have the money

[Sadena Meti]

There are less than 50 right wing groups that actively train their members in the USA.

If you want training, I prefer decentralized. Find someone with the skill, have them train you, move on, recommend him to others, pass on the skills. There are self-trained leftists out there that will train others discreetly.

[Ander]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 05:26 PM
Where are the Revolutionary Leftist tactical camps? There needs to be a Leftist response to the rapid militarization of the far right.

-R
The leftists are being labelled enemies of the state, taken out behind the chemical sheds, and shot.

No, but seriously...what do you think the response in the US would be to this kind of thing?

[Janus]

Where are the Revolutionary Leftist tactical camps? There needs to be a Leftist response to the rapid militarization of the far right.
They're most likely discrete like the militia ones.


If you want training, I prefer decentralized. Find someone with the skill, have them train you, move on, recommend him to others, pass on the skills. There are self-trained leftists out there that will train others discreetly
There are ads in the back of Soldier of Fortune but you would probably want to hide your political ideology from them though.

[La Comédie Noire]

I'm willing to bet that there are well over 1000 tactical/urban combat training camps in the United States. All of which are filled with right wing/libertarian gun nuts or paranoid semi-schizophrenics (maybe I'm being redundant).

Where are the Revolutionary Leftist tactical camps? There needs to be a Leftist response to the rapid militarization of the far right.

-R

Yes, right winged militants do have many tactical training camps and since they are reactionary elements it is okay for them to partake in useless actions.

There are not many Communist Militant camps in North America because that would be futile. We ourselves would be reactionarys to even think of engaging some far right gun nuts in battle. It would do nothing for our cause except get us labled "terrorists" in the United State's current political climate. Than we ourselves would be destroyed by the state. It would be a waste of many comrades and their time, hurting our cause.

I do not beleive the militant right wing poses a threat because their numbers are so small and the state would destroy them if they should show any signs of real action.

As I have said before Guerilla warfare and armed resistance would only be effective in the third world at this time. The key to the first world, as of now, is organized labour, trade unions, and education.

However I am not against Comrades arming themselves incase of individual threats made on their lives. It is also possible that one day these gun nuts should take control of the goverment, and that would be the time for armed resistance.

The day for us to fight will come my Comrade.

[Janus]

There are not many Communist Militant camps in North America because that would be futile. We ourselves would be reactionarys to even think of engaging some far right gun nuts in battle. It would do nothing for our cause except get us labled "terrorists" in the United State's current political climate. Than we ourselves would be destroyed by the state. It would be a waste of many comrades and their time, hurting our cause.
There is a difference between training and actually revolting. The former is legal (depending on what weapons you use of course).

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 09:26 PM
Where are the Revolutionary Leftist tactical camps? There needs to be a Leftist response to the rapid militarization of the far right.
What would be the purpose of these camps?

[Janus]

What would be the purpose of these camps?
He just stated up above that they would be similar to normal training camps run by militias.

The camps would train leftists in military strategy/combat and maybe political ideology.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 10:19 PM

What would be the purpose of these camps?
He just stated up above that they would be similar to normal training camps run by militias.

The camps would train leftists in military strategy/combat and maybe political ideology.
Revolutionary anti-capitalism requires working class people to take control of the means of production.

The purpose of these camps is redundent. They will train elite individuals in the art of compat, but that's not what is necessary to create communism.

The right have these camps because they are preparing for a race war, and this war will be fought regardless of what working class people or what any person has to say about it.

The left want the people to free themselves, the right want them to obey their ideas. That's the difference, and that is why we don't have leftist camps.

[The Feral Underclass]

Having said that, there use to be specific political universities in Denmark during the 60's and 70's.

[Janus]

The left want the people to free themselves, the right want them to obey their ideas. That's the difference, and that is why we don't have leftist camps.
There are training camps being established discretely through out the world for these types of activities whether in nations like the US or war zones like Nepal.


The purpose of these camps is redundent
The combat camps train any willing person in military combat and strategy.

Besides, the people who do this do it to feel cool or because they want to have "an edge" on others.

[Janus]

In this modern day of ours, it's not really necessary to go to a secret leftist camp to learn these skills when there are so many ex-military people who are willing to teach you. You could find some just by flipping through a Soldier of Fortune mag.

But if you're looking for political tactics instruction, then that's a whole different story.

[which doctor]

There's actually a college in California I think where you can major in Social Activism.

[La Comédie Noire]

Well if we were to open a training camp in The United States I think the Ideal place would be Northern Maine.

[Janus]

There's actually a college in California I think where you can major in Social Activism.
Study it, maybe.


Well if we were to open a training camp in The United States I think the Ideal place would be Northern Maine.
I don't think you wanna reveal that info on here.

[La Comédie Noire]

well we would be on a hunting trip and we'd just happen to all be communists.

[lithium]

Ah lads in a way ye are lucky that militia are legal in the US. It's illegal to form an armed association here in Ireland. If it was though, jaysus I'd be training my rebel force sections all over the country.

[loveme4whoiam]

Well it depends on what it is you want "training" in. I mean, if you want to get some survival skills and knowledge then there must be a shedload of people offering courses like that - hell, just watch Ray Mears' stuff and you'll learn a hell of a lot :D Stuff like that must be easy to pick up assuming you can afford to pay a guy to teach you, or just reading plenty and trying it out.

As for the more combative side of things, then I guess in America it must be easy as hell to learn stuff like that. what with your wacky gun laws :P (sorry, couldn't resist a dig, let's not get sidetracked). I mean, over here I was only able to get my hands on a rifle was to join a cadet's group and shoot with them - over there, there must be loads of places to get those kind of skills.

You can pick up knowledge on just about everything if you look for it, and trying it yourself will give you (hopefully, assuming you don't slice your thumb off with a machete first time you use it :P) the skills. These training camps would only be needed to learn actual military-style skills.

[Sadena Meti]

One of the major obstacles for organizing in the United States is location. The country's just too damn big, population density too low. I mean, let's say someone did set up a camp in say... western Arkansas. With most leftists being urban, thus coastal, it's a major effort to get there.


On the subject of right-wing training, that probably is a great source of training. Go join an extreme right wing militia. Two part training, first part militant, second part learning to live covertly in a situation of great personal risk.

[Janus]

The country's just too damn big, population density too low.
That actually works in one's favor. You don't want someone to hear you and then get arrested.


Go join an extreme right wing militia. Two part training, first part militant, second part learning to live covertly in a situation of great personal risk.
The second part is a bit too dangerous since being in a militia means that you will also have to infiltrate them as well.

[Janus]

Ah lads in a way ye are lucky that militia are legal in the US
Well, you can carry guns but forming an actual militia or in other words vigilantism is not perfectly legal. In fact, much of the militia movement is simply composed right-wingers who get together and surreptitiously collect guns,etc. they're not an actual militia.

[which doctor]

The Michigan Militia (which I'm kinda familiar with) accepts anyone.


Everyone is welcome, regardless of race, creed, color, tint, or hue; regardless of your religion (or lack thereof); regardless of your political affiliation (or lack thereof); regardless of anything else

I think lots of libertarians join though, so leftists probaly won't make too many friends.

Even though it's hard to navigate their web site has lots of helpful tips for anyone who wants to arm themselves or be a survivalist.

http://www.michiganmilitia.com/

[violencia.Proletariat]

I'm sorry but we want a revolutionary proletariat not a trained paramilitary in the art of buchering people.

[Janus]

I'm sorry but we want a revolutionary proletariat not a trained paramilitary in the art of buchering people.
Though I wouldn't say that we need to be in a hurry to rush out ot the gun range just yet, I don't think we should simply dismiss people's efforts to do so. There's nothing wrong with people wanting to learn how to handle a gun or learning some military combat especially if this may help our movement later on.

[RevolutionaryMarxist]

I'd personally be very interested in a Revolutionary Training Camp - of course nothing like that could ever be done around here, as the US will obviously support militarization of both the right and liberal left for both are their dogs - but when someone actually poses a true threat to them, they will ruthlessly purge and execute as they see fitting.

But the idea still sounds nice.

Yet not like a Hezbollah type camp - we don't need outright butchers and ninjas - standard knowledge of how to fight/defend oneself, along with ideological study - like a Study Group of Anarchism/Socialism and guns.

[Ander]

Would it be wise for us leftists to know how to handle weapons, such as guns? I guess so, right?

[GlassDraggon]

Damn...this generated some great dialogue.

Two things are striking me:
1. I was theorizing about a camp that would allow for the distribution of tactical and combative knowledge among leftists not a paramilitary organization.
2. From what I'm getting- a lot of you don't see yourselves as "working class". Instead you seem to be viewing things from the top and referring to "THE working class". I personally see myself as a worker/proletariat and I don't invision myself and others being able to simply walk into factories and warehouses and peacefully taking over production. I don't mean to offend anyone- but it would be naive as hell to think that a capitalist nation would simply allow a political handover of wealth/production.



Someone mentioned the possibility of infiltrating/attending one of the many right wing paramilitaries or tactical training camps. I've spent a bit of time considering the option and I don't think it would be wise. I'm 100% sure that they do thorough background checks and I, for one, would definitely be red flagged as a Leftist. It would also be unnecessarily dangerous.

Training at such a camp could also include political theory, activist organizing, fundraising seminars and lots of non-combat related information and organization.


Hope to see more dialogue,
-R

[RevolutionaryMarxist]

Not just guns as there are plenty more ways to disable a person / disable a person with a gun - yet guns modernly are the primary tool, but knowledge of knife and hand-to-hand skill should be covered as well.

Don't matter how much theory or books you read if you get a bullet through your head :)


I don't invision myself and others being able to simply walk into factories and warehouses and peacefully taking over production. I don't mean to offend anyone- but it would be naive as hell to think that a capitalist nation would simply allow a political handover of wealth/production.


Sortof what I said.

[Janus]

I'm 100% sure that they do thorough background checks and I, for one, would definitely be red flagged as a Leftist. It would also be unnecessarily dangerous.
Yeah, joining these camps would mean that you are now in their inner circle so it would be like joining the Mob or something. Something that is unnecessary if all you're seeking is some weapons training.

[RevSouth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 07:50 PM
Would it be wise for us leftists to know how to handle weapons, such as guns? I guess so, right?
Thats the same thing I was thinking. We don't need expensive paramilitary training with heavy weaponry, but some basic firearm training, etc. could help the average leftist in the future, because we cannot predict the future, so we should be prepared, at the least.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

There are plenty of "non-political" gun ranges and gun training seminars around the U.S. You could (and should) join any of these if you lack skills in handling firearms. You could also just pick up a firearm and learn (after finding out the basics). It's really not hard to learn how to handle a firearm, but accuracy needs practice.

[Sadena Meti]

As I said in some other post recently (I think it was about religion actually), anyone with "change" on their mind should learn to use a rifle, and learn to use it well. Recommend either a Remington Model 700, or for best practical experience, a civilian AK. Learn to use it, learn to maintain it, learn to repair it, learn how to get it without leaving a paper trail. Then practice practice practice. Minimum goal for any bolt action would be 10 of 10 in a 2" bullseye at 100 yards, 50 yards for the AK.

Now this may seem silly, and very "shopping mall ninja." But if right now someone where to thrust a rifle in your hands and give you an hour to figure out how to load and fire it (forget about actually hitting something), could you? Firearm experience is a practical skill.

Start with a rifle, not a handgun. In the US, getting a rifle and finding a place to practice is the simplest thing. And... frankly, it's fun. The first time you actually manage to hit the center bullseye...

Just don't talk politics at the firing range.

[LeftxWingxScum]

Still in all, it's not a bad idea for people to have basic self-defense skills, a working knowledge of current laws and to have wilderness survival skills. You never know when any of those might come in handy.

[dusk]

Yes I wonder were they are.
Is it all talk or is the also a walk?

[Janus]

Yes I wonder were they are.
If they were made public, then there would be massive crackdowns. More or less, they're mainly a tight group of comrades getting together in some isolated area and playing soldier.

[La Comédie Noire]

If they were made public, then there would be massive crackdowns. More or less, they're mainly a tight group of comrades getting together in some isolated area and playing soldier.

Well thats what I was thinking would be ideal. Like a study group except it is for self defense. Of course I think we should here and now discuss some books and materials to be in the cariculum(sp?). Note I am asking for suggestions because I want to train myself in defense and weapons, not others quite yet.

Would saying that get me in trouble? because I heard about that Austin guy getting knocked down by the FBI. Sorry just me being paranoid :D

[Whitten]

Only if they plant evidence on you, you havent broken any laws yet.

[Sadena Meti]

Groups are easy to spot.
One-to-one is not.

Groups are easy to infiltrate.
One-to-one is not.

Groups offer more bang-for-the-buck to take down (arrest a dozen people with one case of entrapment).
One-to-one does not.



When the enemy is in authority, low- to zero-profile is a must.

[Janus]

Groups are easy to spot.
If you practice in populated areas then it would be suspicious. If you practice in some isolated forest then there's little chance of being caught if you're careful.


Would saying that get me in trouble?
No, but actually making and publicizing illegal activities on here wouldn't be the best idea.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

You don't want revolutionary training camps?

I fully support such camps.

I would not advise infiltrating rightwing groups. It's unneccesary and dangerous.



2. From what I'm getting- a lot of you don't see yourselves as "working class". Instead you seem to be viewing things from the top and referring to "THE working class". I personally see myself as a worker/proletariat and I don't invision myself and others being able to simply walk into factories and warehouses and peacefully taking over production. I don't mean to offend anyone- but it would be naive as hell to think that a capitalist nation would simply allow a political handover of wealth/production.

I have observed the same as well. It seems like quite a few communists seem to put themselves higher; 'the working class is the ignorant infidels, but we know better' etc.
It seems like a really big problem in the communist movement.

[lithium]

I find it interesting to read that some people would rather not have a military-style training camp. But here's a scenario that I'm thinking of at the moment:

You're in the US, and most of the public have come to distrust the government and right-wing economics and politics. A substantial number of revolutionary groups have popped up all over the country and, at last, a move is made to start capturing the means of production. As a member of one of these groups, you have helped capture and take control of a high-profit-making factory. The seizure took place quickly and as a result no police or other armed force was able to reach you in time to prevent the action.

After a couple of hours, the factory you captured is now surrounded by soldiers, similar in numbers to the number of occupants. However, the soldiers are ordered to recapture the factory at all costs and are going to fire on you whether you like it or not.

Do you want some basic firearm training? Or do you want to be familiar in military tactics and have extensive experience in using weapons effectively?

I think some degree of military knowledge is a must for a revolutionary.

[Janus]

In the scenario in which you describe, participating in an isolated revolt will only result in either jail or death.

[Sadena Meti]

Straight military confrontation is pointless in the modern age. Guerilla warfare, irregular combat, and actions that modern government controlled media would call terrorism (but in reality fall under sabotage and covert combat), are the only effective tactics of a minority force against a majority force.

The old fashioned imaged of a people's war (arm a thousand peasants, march against the army) only works when the forces are comparably equipped and motivate (peasants with flintlocks vs conscripts with flintlocks). A revolutionary army does not have access to tanks and bombers. One Daisy Cutter wipes out the revolutionary ranks. Guerilla, irregular, and covert warfare are the only viable options for overthrow.

And as one summary point, this sort of warfare only has the potential to weaken and possibly eliminate the existing government. Without a simultaneous social revolution, you can not produce a new society this way.

But covert warfare against an existing government can hinder their control, and produce possible instability, which always favors the masses in revolution. Troops are sent to supress a popular uprising, sabateurs take out the railway they are coming on, guerillas blow up the motor pool, and snipers take out the officers. The uprising continues unhindered.

“The conspiracy is always subordinate to the mass action.”

[Morag]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 8 2006, 09:33 PM
There's actually a college in California I think where you can major in Social Activism.
The New College in California offers MA's in Activism and Social Change. This is the page for that program (http://www.newcollege.edu/activismchange/courses.cfm), and for all programs, (http://www.newcollege.edu/academics/degreeprograms.cfm)

As an Cadet in Canada, you can learn shitloads of things. Air Cadets can train you to fly, plus survival (you can take summer courses which accredit you as a survival instructor), as well as weapons stuff. I *think* the Army Cadets do much more weapons shit (but do you want to lower yourself to be a gopher? pah), and the Sea Cadets do a lot of survival as well.

I guess it depends. Survival is easy to learn. Weapons skills would probably be easy to get basic proficiency at. But tactics is another thing altogether.

[lithium]

Originally posted by Janus+Aug 9 2006, 07:33 PM--> (Janus @ Aug 9 2006, 07:33 PM) In the scenario in which you describe, participating in an isolated revolt will only result in either jail or death. [/b]
Possibly. But if the revolutionary occupants of the factory have the same number of armed personnel as the regular army, and similar training, are you saying that the occupants do not have a chance at all?

Keep in mind that the majority of the population supports the uprising; the government and army are only fighting back to protect their wealth.


rev [email protected] 9 2006, 08:27 PM
Straight military confrontation is pointless in the modern age. Guerilla warfare, irregular combat, and actions that modern government controlled media would call terrorism (but in reality fall under sabotage and covert combat), are the only effective tactics of a minority force against a majority force.

Yes, but what if a scenario similar to my last post occurs? The proletariat have seized a large number of factories/oil rigs/whatever, and the government decide to strike back. How will we defend what we have captured? I feel that "Straight military confrontation" is possibly the only way to fight back and properly defend.

I'm thinking of how the training camps might be used to train people in practical situations. Yes, I'd love to arm everyone and have everyone fight against the power but when it comes down to it arming everyone is impractical. Those who are armed should have military training that's actually used in the field ("normal" wars and stuff) as well as skills used in guerilla warfare. Know the enemy.

[Janus]

But if the revolutionary occupants of the factory have the same number of armed personnel as the regular army, and similar training, are you saying that the occupants do not have a chance at all?
You're talking about a small group of people against an entire army.


Keep in mind that the majority of the population supports the uprising; the government and army are only fighting back to protect their wealth.
That is a whole different scenario altogether.

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 04:00 PM
Yes, but what if a scenario similar to my last post occurs? The proletariat have seized a large number of factories/oil rigs/whatever, and the government decide to strike back. How will we defend what we have captured?
You can not hold any facility if the government is willing to damage/destroy it. In the context of a revolution, they will.

So, seize high-profit low-usefulness facilities (things that the masses don't need but fund the ruling class), and don't hold them, destroy them. Deprives the ruling class of power, and is a propaganda victory.

In cases of useful facilities, true means of production, don't seize the facility, seize those that control the facility, and seize the products of the facility. This way you don't make a standing target defending a factory.

In cases of oil rigs, refineries, seize, capture and evacuate staff, booby-trap, retreat. Deprive the ruling class of the use of the resource without staying to defend or destroying it.

[lithium]

Okay I see what you're getting at. Good tactics!

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Good tactics indeed, Rev. The anatomy of a revolution is different to historical ones, because people are less and technology is more in current warfare. Hmmm. Toughie.

I wondered, most consider material conditions for a revolution as the death throes of capitalism, right? And in the death throes, you're likely to have a real bastard in power. Might assasination be a viable course of action? Temporarily be heading the enemy would help a lot in the proletariat organizing, IMO.

-Alex

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 04:41 PM
I wondered, most consider material conditions for a revolution as the death throes of capitalism, right? And in the death throes, you're likely to have a real bastard in power. Might assasination be a viable course of action? Temporarily beheading the enemy would help a lot in the proletariat organizing,
Assasination is always a good option, though it does not of itself produce long term results.


First, assassination is the ultimate propaganda victory. There is nothing greater.

Second, assassination is a rallying victory. People think that one man heads a government, of course he doesn't. But when an oppressive figurehead falls, the masses (wrongly) think it is the start of an avalanche. But perception is as powerful as reality. People think a bank is unstable, they withdraw their money, the bank becomes unstable. People think the assassination is the start of an avalanche, so they join the revolution, now it is an avalanche. In this context, an oppressive government is beneficial to a revolution.

Third, I agree that the conditions for a revolution are unstable times and collapsing conditions of the current system, whatever it is. These conditions can occur naturally as a result of history (i.e. the eventual collapse of capitalism), or they can be artificially induced. Though the moral aspects of the latter are questionable.

[Sadena Meti]

Early I made the suggestion that in the USA, if you want to get paramilitary training, you could infiltrate a right wing militant organization.

There is another option that some people would think equally obsurd, but if you are serious... there's always FARC. Takes commitment and dedication to be allowed to join, not something you can do overnight, and you'd have to leave everything in your life behind. So, perhaps obsurd, but an option.

Some Irish fellows took that option when they couldn't train locally.

[RevSouth]

Anyone know where you can get flight training in the United States? The best (and cheapest) approach I know to getting it is joining the Air Force, but meh. Doesn't seem like a good idea seeing the United States is not worried about using force, and the fact that I would actually have to where a U.S. uniform.... Fuck that. But flight training is expensive. Any tips?

[Janus]

But flight training is expensive. Any tips?
Flight simulator?

There are civilian pilot schools where you can get basic training.

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 05:22 PM
Anyone know where you can get flight training in the United States?
Besides the military, you'd have to go private. It can be expensive, and the planes you'd learn to fly aren't practical if you want to compair it to military training.

Still, if you are just interested in basic aircraft, private lessons at airports, though expensive, are the only real option. I mean, I guess it depends on your situation. Another option is some community colleges that are located near a small airport offer classes at slightly better rates (because they are partially subsidized by the public). But on the average, you are looking at $5000.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by rev-stoic+Aug 9 2006, 05:02 PM--> (rev-stoic @ Aug 9 2006, 05:02 PM)
[email protected] 9 2006, 04:41 PM
I wondered, most consider material conditions for a revolution as the death throes of capitalism, right? And in the death throes, you're likely to have a real bastard in power. Might assasination be a viable course of action? Temporarily beheading the enemy would help a lot in the proletariat organizing,
Assasination is always a good option, though it does not of itself produce long term results.


First, assassination is the ultimate propaganda victory. There is nothing greater.

Second, assassination is a rallying victory. People think that one man heads a government, of course he doesn't. But when an oppressive figurehead falls, the masses (wrongly) think it is the start of an avalanche. But perception is as powerful as reality. People think a bank is unstable, they withdraw their money, the bank becomes unstable. People think the assassination is the start of an avalanche, so they join the revolution, now it is an avalanche. In this context, an oppressive government is beneficial to a revolution.

Third, I agree that the conditions for a revolution are unstable times and collapsing conditions of the current system, whatever it is. These conditions can occur naturally as a result of history (i.e. the eventual collapse of capitalism), or they can be artificially induced. Though the moral aspects of the latter are questionable. [/b]
You think assasinations are really revolutionary?

Tell that to Leon Czolgosz, Michele Angiolillo, Sante Jeronimo Caserio, Dmitry Bogrov, Aleksander Schinas, and even Alexander Berkman. They all killed someone, or tried to kill someone in hopes of spuring a revolution.

However, no revolution ever came.

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 9 2006, 05:50 PM
However, no revolution ever came.
The discussion was within the context of an extant armed struggle (see Lithium's post about a full page ago). And as I said:

...though it does not of itself produce long term results.

[Morag]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 10:22 PM
Anyone know where you can get flight training in the United States? The best (and cheapest) approach I know to getting it is joining the Air Force, but meh. Doesn't seem like a good idea seeing the United States is not worried about using force, and the fact that I would actually have to where a U.S. uniform.... Fuck that. But flight training is expensive. Any tips?
Even if you join the Air Force, chances are very small you'd be able to become a pilot. Best route is private lessons or enrolling in a college course for it. I'm not sure if it's a program in American colleges, but it is in Canada.

If your young enough, I think the Civil Air Patrol has flight training. A flight simulator is a good training option, but you won't actually be allowed your lisence without 100s of hours in the air.

Some inner city programs train people as pilots in the LA area.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Though I wouldn't say that we need to be in a hurry to rush out ot the gun range just yet, I don't think we should simply dismiss people's efforts to do so. There's nothing wrong with people wanting to learn how to handle a gun or learning some military combat especially if this may help our movement later on.

The person who's idea this was asked why the right have camps and we dont. The right has PARAMILITARY camps, so we should have them too? NO THANKS.


1. I was theorizing about a camp that would allow for the distribution of tactical and combative knowledge among leftists not a paramilitary organization.

Then what is this about?


Someone mentioned the possibility of infiltrating/attending one of the many right wing paramilitaries or tactical training camps. I've spent a bit of time considering the option and I don't think it would be wise. I'm 100% sure that they do thorough background checks and I, for one, would definitely be red flagged as a Leftist. It would also be unnecessarily dangerous.

Are you suggesting we take ideas from these camps? Or use the knowledge taught in them?

What you propose sounds like a camp for people who want to be urban guerillas. Any combative training for the proletariat should be under the control of the community. This is not at option at this time, nor is it necessary. We have no workers militias at this time, so there is no need for military training. If you want to learn how to use a firearm there are already free public programs that teach this.

Any sort of "camp" you make would be alienation of the proletariat. We don't need fucking guerillas, you are not che guevara. Get out there and unionize not play guns in the woods.

[An archist]

If you want to get basic skills: not real weapon skills, just get together with some mates, make some smoke bombs and stuff like that and see that you know how to use them: there's loads of sites where you can find that information, though I advise against 'the anarchist cookbook', some recipes are designed to explode while you're making them.

[Whitten]

When the enemy troops start pooring into your towns during the revolution, you'll be glad there are paramilitary left wing groups.

[Marion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 10:59 AM
When the enemy troops start pooring into your towns during the revolution, you'll be glad there are paramilitary left wing groups.
I'd certainly be happy for there to be defense forces in the case of a revolution (although we may well differ as to what the nature of these should be).

However, why does spending time now learning how to fire a gun, guerrila training or anything like that bring the revolution any closer? Why is this any sort of priority at present?

[Sadena Meti]

Resistance and subversion against an existing counter-revolutionary government reduces its control over the masses and increases the possibility of revolution. Additionally, action can produce tangible results to specific causes outside of the revolution. Furthermore, even action that produces no long term results has a purpose, as it demonstrates that action is possible, countering the apathetic masses. Finally, you have to bail out a boat to keep it from sinking. Standing in knee deep water with your arms crossed saying “I’m not going to do anything until the final end-all-be-all new boat arrives (the revolution)” is founded more in laziness than in conviction to theory.

The old model of the old people’s war is out of date in the modern military context. As recent history (last seventy years) has shown, the actions of small units of elite guerillas and covert resistance fighters have become more and more important with each war and each revolution. This is not late 18th century France nor early 20th century Russia. For further theory on how revolutions must change to adapt to the time and environment, see the writings of Thomas Paine, Mao Zedong, and Che Guevara.

To the final point, why start training now? Simple. How many times when something has started people say “If only we had start preparing just five years earlier?” or “Wouldn’t it have been great if we had started slowly stockpiling arms?” or “I with the previous generation had done the preliminary work.” There is no time like the present. We will be able to see the revolution coming a few years off, but that gives you a few years to prepare and train. Unless you have something better to do, start building experience now, so when the time for action does come, you’ll have a decade of training under your belt. The enemies of the people already do.

[TC]

I think, for all of those who say its unnecessary and we just need the working class to take control of production, they are being extraordinarily naive.


The capitalist state has both an army and a paramilitary policeforce, and one person with a gun can control 100 without them.

It is impossible for unarmed workers to take control of production from a diciplined, organized, military enemy. Although i hardly think that V for Vendetta should be sited as valid revolutionary theory, the line "What usually happens when people without guns stand up to people *with* guns" is very apt.

In order to allow workers to sieze control of the means of production, they need to to be able to take out or sufficently disrupt the organization of the state that protects it...and to do that, they need a force that is equally well diciplined, trained, armed and organized. If the state is destroyed even briefly the workers have an oprotunity to sieze control, and attempting to destroy that state isn't attempting to 'lead the workers', they liberate themselves by seizing control of the means of production, rather its to eliminate the state aperatus which prevents them from doing so: when the state falls the workers don't need to be told what to do, its fairly obvious.

[Marion]

Yep, totally agree with you about the need to undertake resistance where possible and sensible against a counter-revolutionary government. No-one is sitting here saying we don't need to do anything, the question is over what constitutes useful activity and what doesn't. Sometimes it may be that the situation demands certain types of "active" work, at others it may be necessary to regroup and reassess things and learn. Action for the sake of action is pointless. I wouldn't say that learning how to fire guns is absolutely totally pointless, but I fail to see how we are anywhere near a position where working class action necessitates firing guns. It's not enough just to say we need to prepare now - we need to prepare lots of things now, and, IMHO, having guerrila training or learning to shoot is pretty much near the bottom of the list...

[Marion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 02:40 PM
I think, for all of those who say its unnecessary and we just need the working class to take control of production, they are being extraordinarily naive.


I might very well have missed a comment or two, but I can't remember anyone on these boards saying this. Any chance of a quote?

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 06:59 AM
When the enemy troops start pooring into your towns during the revolution, you'll be glad there are paramilitary left wing groups.
No I wouldn't be. Paramilitary groups are modeled after the military. We don't want hierarchy, thats why we support workers militias with democratically elected officers.

Paramilitary groups around the world are responsible for so many abuses, why would a leftist banner it works under prevent the same thing? Are purpose is to defend the DOP not make a mindless killing force.


However, why does spending time now learning how to fire a gun, guerrila training or anything like that bring the revolution any closer? Why is this any sort of priority at present?

Learning how to fire a gun does not take a training camp in the forest. Go to your local sporting goods store and they will point you in the direction you need to go for gun training classes. Thank you america ;) And armed insurgencies in first world countries have not advanced the revolutionary cause. In America it had the opposite effect.

[Whitten]

Originally posted by violencia.Proletariat+Aug 10 2006, 04:07 PM--> (violencia.Proletariat @ Aug 10 2006, 04:07 PM)
[email protected] 10 2006, 06:59 AM
When the enemy troops start pooring into your towns during the revolution, you'll be glad there are paramilitary left wing groups.
No I wouldn't be. Paramilitary groups are modeled after the military. We don't want hierarchy, thats why we support workers militias with democratically elected officers.

Paramilitary groups around the world are responsible for so many abuses, why would a leftist banner it works under prevent the same thing? Are purpose is to defend the DOP not make a mindless killing force.


However, why does spending time now learning how to fire a gun, guerrila training or anything like that bring the revolution any closer? Why is this any sort of priority at present?

Learning how to fire a gun does not take a training camp in the forest. Go to your local sporting goods store and they will point you in the direction you need to go for gun training classes. Thank you america ;) And armed insurgencies in first world countries have not advanced the revolutionary cause. In America it had the opposite effect. [/b]
How do you intend to get to the DOP without a way to fight off the bourgeois mindless killing force?

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 12:24 PM

How do you intend to get to the DOP without a way to fight off the bourgeois mindless killing force?

We don't want hierarchy, thats why we support workers militias with democratically elected officers.

[RevSouth]

As rev-stoic pointed out, the way we will seize control of the state is very different now than in the past. THe powers that be are far more prepared for us than they were in Czarist Russia. Noone thought it could happen there. Now the authorities are more prepared to mobilize and use their abilities to supress revolutionary elements. Technology has increased well enough, too, that a mass of unarmed people can be easily put down by one with a gun, as rev-stoic also mentioned. Basic marksmanship and tactics can be easily learned and with some manner of difficulty, put into practice. And with democratic hierarchy and decently trained forces, the revolution can progress with less bloodshed and more ease.

[GlassDraggon]

Ok, we're getting WAY away from the idea of a training camp and into paramilitary arguments.

When I say "training camp" I mean TRAINING camp. Not a paramilitary force. I mean basic weapons training, basic tactical training, military theory, hand to hand combat etc etc. All of which can be used by individuals OR by groups (doesn't matter how it's used- the point is to share the information among leftists of all branches). Whether or not we should work anarchistically or as a hierarchical/traditional military force is an entirely seperate debate.

I'm just suggesting a "camp" for the distribution of combat INFORMATION. The people in the camp come...share experience, training, information, etc etc and then go their seperate ways. Some leftists may work as units, some may work as paramilitary forces, some may work individually and some may just be coming because they want to know how to defend themselves.

We all have seperate opinions as to what type of action is best or most loyal to the virtues of our beliefs. They are ALL equally correct and justifiable (unless you are supporting fascism) and have all worked successfully at one time or another. More importantly, we are all have the same immediate goals. So why the hell are we arguing about whether to fight individually, in units, covertly or in paramilitary fashion when (I'm making an assumption) none of us knows a damn thing about real life combat? The first goal should be to learn all the options and have the knowledge and experience to make intelligent decisions. As it is, we are making decisions strictly according to theoretical political virtues. That won't get a damn thing done.

1. Educate yourselves and others
2. Make a decision individually and as a group
3. Take appropriate and well informed action

Right now this is what we're doing:

1. Make uninformed decisions as individuals
on the basis of theoretical or hypothetical virtue
2. Argue amongst each other
65. Continue to argue amongst each other
78. Realize that we don't really have enough information to make a decision or take any form of action
79. Move on to another thread and repeat process



I think our first step needs to be learning and spreading information- even if it conflicts with our personal political ideologies. For instance: an anarchist learning traditional military maneuvers OR a semi-authoritarian communist learning covert guerilla warfare and sabotage techniques. Then we can all sit down together, with that information, and talk about specific strategy from an educated perspective.

-R

[An archist]

Right, so who's stopping you?
Get together with some mates/comrades, spread information, train together whatever you want to train in, and when you think you're good: move on and train with others.
OR find some people willing to ste up a camp your own style.

I know raccoon is in the army, find him and ask him to give you a basic training.

[Sadena Meti]

OK, so if we are to think about seriously pursuing this, let's start looking at the obstacles.

First, the question of WHERE.

In order to engage in real life / live fire training, you are going to need access to private property. Know any leftists with 500-1000 acres? Or do you know enough leftists to fundraise enough cash to buy that area of wasteland? (In low value areas, you can get a square mile for about $100,000 - $150,000.)

If we step away from that and switch to simulated training (no live fire, no explosives) that could be done on public land. I mentioned western Arkansas earlier, and with good reason. Nearly 2,000,000 acres of public forest.


And as far as subjects, I would disagree that these camps should teach basic skills. That would be a waste of time. Any individual attending should already have (self-trained) basic firearms skills, be in a good shape, and have advanced camping / basic survival skills.

In that context, it would be very easy to put together a simple event. Two weeks on public land, roughing it, discussing strategy, politics, tactics, simulated training, etc. Build confidence, experience, and camaraderie.


But for real training, we'd need private land.

[Marion]

Apologies for raising this again, but...


Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 02:43 PM
I fail to see how we are anywhere near a position where working class action necessitates firing guns. It's not enough just to say we need to prepare now - we need to prepare lots of things now, and, IMHO, having guerrila training or learning to shoot is pretty much near the bottom of the list...

Don't get me wrong. If you want to have a camp and practice firing guns and survival techniques and training then go ahead. I'm sure a lot of people would find it quite fun. In terms of political usefulness though, rather than an interesting leisure trip or holiday, it seems fairly useless. I'm happy to listen to counter-arguments though...

[lithium]

If we wait until there are big signs of the Revolution actually starting, then it's too late to begin weapons training. Once the imperial power recognises the potential threat to the capitalist state then it will immediately ban all assemblies of people to prevent the spread of information and the formation of more insurgency groups. This happened in Ireland prior to the War of Independence; people were executed for simply meeting up and playing sports.

When the imperial armed forces come and try to arrest/kill you or your unit, it will be much better to already have the weapons training, than to be just deciding "eh ok I think now's a good time to start some training".

We need to have at least basic skills before a large-scale uprising begins to take place.

On another note, I have a friend in the army and have been chatting to him about military stuff occassionaly. It's worth noting that soldiers are trained in counter-insurgency techniques, and to an extent, a lot of the military tactics used are, in fact, guerilla methods.

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 07:09 AM
In terms of political usefulness though, it seems fairly useless.
I'd say part of the argument is that politics without actions are useless. Another part of the argument is political movement without practical preparation is a recipe for failure.

And then of course there’s the undeniable fact… we've got downtime, might as well make use of it.


*edit*

There is something more as well. Lessons learned in one aspect of life apply to others. The tactics involved in organizing a group to... say... capture and defend an encampment, can be equally applied to leading a grassroots movement to "capture" political control of a community. Intelligence, planning, equipment, logistics, communications, action, fallout, counter-attack, etc. Consider how many leaders in history have crossed over from military to political, and political to military. Hence one of the key points of a "workers' revolution", the methods of organizing a workforce cross over to the methods of organizing a revolutionary military force which cross over to the methods of organizing a government.

One of the axioms I live by: "Everything and anything is worth learning."

*edit edit*


Lessons learned in one aspect of life apply to others.
Let me give you a great example. Marksmanship. The first time you grab a rifle, head to the range, put a target up at 100 yards, and after about half an hour, you’ll actually hit it. But in the course of refining your skill from “being on paper” to putting every shot into a 2” bull’s-eye, the skills you learn change the way you think and live in other aspects of your life. You have to consider the condition of the rifle. If the barrel has just been cleaned, it will behave one way. If it has had a few rounds through it already (“dirtied up” a good thing), it will behave another. And if it needs cleaning (is fouled) it will behave a third. You consider the wind, the trajectory of the bullet, the bullet’s weight, the cartridge’s power. What range is the scope sighted in at, how steady are your hands, what is your heart rate? And then, putting all the distractions away, focusing only on the target, you fire.

The skills in learning something extreme will apply to the mundane as well. Even to cooking :) Stretching yourself opens your mind. Something anyone who has studied a martial art can attest to.

Overall the concept is embodied in the axiom: “Live Tactically.”

[Marion]

Don't disagree with you at all about the fact that this type of training might come in useful (it might come in useful in my lifetime, but I don't think any of us can say for sure). However, the important question isn't whether it eventually might come in handy but whether the balance of probabilities suggest it is currently something worth spending time on. Sure, a "large-scale uprising" may suddenly spring up in the Western world in the next couple of years and I'd never completely discount the possibility. However, I'd say the priority at present is nothing to do with working out how to act if a "large-scale uprising" is violently suppressed as I can't see any signs that there is anything like a meaningful revolutionary movement (in terms of size) in Western Europe or the USA at present let alone a "large-scale uprising".

What is there in your reading of current class consciousness, world events or whatever, that leads you to think there is more than a remote possibility that urban guerilla training in the Western world is at all politically useful rather than an opportunity for playing with military hardware and having a laugh?

P.S. Violencia's right with earlier comments about the fact that what is being proposed is substitutionist as well

[303Nate]

Neo-Nazi's are now being told you join the US military and train in Iraq for the up-coming race wars here in the United States. I don't think you have to worry about those right wing militias when you have them spreading that ideology in the US military.



An article in the National Alliance magazine Resistance urged skinheads to join the Army and insist on being assigned to light infantry units.

The Southern Poverty Law Center identified the author as Steven Barry, who it said was a former Special Forces officer who was the alliance's "military unit coordinator."

"Light infantry is your branch of choice because the coming race war and the ethnic cleansing to follow will be very much an infantryman's war," he wrote. "It will be house-to-house, neighborhood-by-neighborhood until your town or city is cleared and the alien races are driven into the countryside where they can be hunted down and 'cleansed.' "

He concluded: "As a professional soldier, my goal is to fill the ranks of the United States Army with skinheads. As street brawlers, you will be useless in the coming race war. As trained infantrymen, you will join the ranks of the Aryan warrior brotherhood."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/07/washingt...=rssnyt&emc=rss (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/07/washington/07recruit.html?ex=1309924800&en=18e0e7dce2b8c8d3&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

[Marion]

Originally posted by rev-[email protected] 11 2006, 01:43 PM
I'd say part of the argument is that politics without actions are useless. Another part of the argument is political movement without practical preparation is a recipe for failure.

And then of course there’s the undeniable fact… we've got downtime, might as well make use of it.

Yep, but action can take any number of forms (chatting to a workmate about his views is action) - the question is, as you suggest, how useful the action is and whether our "downtime" is best spent doing one thing rather than another.


There is something more as well. Lessons learned in one aspect of life apply to others. The tactics involved in organizing a group to... say... capture and defend an encampment, can be equally applied to leading a grassroots movement to "capture" political control of a community. Intelligence, planning, equipment, logistics, communications, action, fallout, counter-attack, etc. Consider how many leaders in history have crossed over from military to political, and political to military. Hence one of the key points of a "workers' revolution", the methods of organizing a workforce cross over to the methods of organizing a revolutionary military force which cross over to the methods of organizing a government.

One of the axioms I live by: "Everything and anything is worth learning."

The skills in learning something extreme will apply to the mundane as well. Even to cooking :) Stretching yourself opens your mind. Something anyone who has studied a martial art can attest to.

Overall the concept is embodied in the axiom: “Live Tactically.”

You're right that stretching yourself opens your mind, and if people feel that the best way of stretching themselves is doing this type of thing then fair enough. I'm not saying that this type of thing might not be fun, that it might not stretch your mind, that it might not give some spin-off learning etc. But could something else be done that's more useful? What is there in the way we live that suggests this is something we should spend our time on now?

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 09:14 AM
What is there in your reading of current class consciousness, world events or whatever, that leads you to think there is more than a remote possibility that urban guerilla training in the Western world is at all politically useful rather than an opportunity for playing with military hardware and having a laugh?
My assessment (which I haven't and won't fully elaborate online) that this would be a productive course of action and training has less to do with current class consciousness and more to do with current events. I fully expect within the current lifetime (not necessarily mine) it will be necessary to take action against counter-revolutionary actions by the existing government, not only counter-revolutionary action against its own citizens but also counter-revolutionary action of this government against other countries. Domestic action to subvert and sabotage acts of international aggression and imperialism. You’d give your life in defense of your own revolution, but would you give it in defense of someone else’s?

That’s about as much detail as I’m comfortable with. But my opinions and beliefs are only one reason why this training would be useful. Other people have others.

[Marion]

Originally posted by rev-stoic+Aug 11 2006, 02:54 PM--> (rev-stoic @ Aug 11 2006, 02:54 PM)
[email protected] 11 2006, 09:14 AM
What is there in your reading of current class consciousness, world events or whatever, that leads you to think there is more than a remote possibility that urban guerilla training in the Western world is at all politically useful rather than an opportunity for playing with military hardware and having a laugh?
My assessment (which I haven't and won't fully elaborate online) that this would be a productive course of action and training has less to do with current class consciousness and more to do with current events. I fully expect within the current lifetime (not necessarily mine) it will be necessary to take action against counter-revolutionary actions by the existing government, not only counter-revolutionary action against its own citizens but also counter-revolutionary action of this government against other countries. Domestic action to subvert and sabotage acts of international aggression and imperialism. You’d give your life in defense of your own revolution, but would you give it in defense of someone else’s?

That’s about as much detail as I’m comfortable with. But my opinions and beliefs are only one reason why this training would be useful. Other people have others.[/b]
Well, if you're saying what I think you're saying (and I may be reading too much into it) it sounds like from your perspective the issue is less about whether it is actually going to be used, but the types of question Violencia raised earlier about substitutionism. I'd still argue that doing some of the type of things that Violencia suggested (or even speaking to workmates) is more useful than what you seem to be suggesting.

Perhaps I am reading too much into it though...

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Well, I for one is going to join a shooting club. After half a year I can buy a pistol. It's legal and good.

Remember the spanish civil war. The republicans were short of weapons and training. One of the major advantages of the nationalists was that the soldiers stationed in Africa were well trained.

If only more PEOPLE were armed and trained. Then the coup might have been crushed in the very first days/weeks.

I really do not understand those leftists that are opposed to leftist people getting to know how a gun works, and improve their firearm skills.

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 10:20 AM
Well, if you're saying what I think you're saying (and I may be reading too much into it) it sounds like from your perspective the issue is less about whether it is actually going to be used, but the types of question Violencia raised earlier about substitutionism. I'd still argue that doing some of the type of things that Violencia suggested (or even speaking to workmates) is more useful than what you seem to be suggesting.

Perhaps I am reading too much into it though...

Depends on perspective and goals. If one views the people’s revolution as a domestic issue, country by country, or if you view it as a global process. In addition to ruling class vs. exploited class, we have ruling countries vs. exploited countries. Action may be needed in country A that does not in any way promote revolution in country A, but rather effects what country A is doing to country B's revolution. Domestic proletariat or global proletariat; depends on which you identify with.

On the subject of goals, I completely concur that guerilla action will not bring about the revolution without corresponding social action (think I stated this very explicitly pages ago). The point I was skirting in my previous post is that actions requiring certain skills will be necessary in the revolutionary age, though the actions may not be part of the revolution itself. Reality sometimes requires actions even if those actions do not contribute to final victory. Necessity vs. idealism.

[Marion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 03:26 PM
I really do not understand those leftists that are opposed to leftist people getting to know how a gun works, and improve their firearm skills.
I don't think anyone on this thread has actually said that. All I've said is that I think at the present situation it's politically irrelevant. If you want to learn how to shoot a gun because you think its cool or because you just enjoy doing it, then fair enough. Sometimes I go running, sometimes I stay in and read a book, sometimes I do some other leisure activity. However, given current circumstances I think that a leisure activity is all that learning how to shoot a gun and having a training camp would be (presuming you live in a Western country).

[Janus]

All I've said is that I think at the present situation it's politically irrelevant. If you want to learn how to shoot a gun because you think its cool or because you just enjoy doing it, then fair enough. Sometimes I go running, sometimes I stay in and read a book, sometimes I do some other leisure activity. However, given current circumstances I think that a leisure activity is all that learning how to shoot a gun and having a training camp would be (presuming you live in a Western country).
It's like self-defense. You may never need use of it but it wouldn't hurt to be prepared. Also, it's a fun hobby and exercise too.

[GlassDraggon]

I see it also as a matter of potential self defense. It also gives people an opportunity to sit down together and put together hypothetical plans for various political (or other) scenarios. Also builds connections and comraderie.

It'd be pretty silly to just go play soldier. But if there are pragmatic and realistic purposes and values involved...then I think it's definitely worthwhile.

-R

(Edit: "Schenarios" to "Scenarios")

[kifl]

I agree with most if not all of what rev-stoic says.

[Moderation: Do not discuss anything which could be interpreted as the encouragment of terrorism or the participation in illegal activity; such as weapons, bomb making or violent preperations against the state. This can and has led to websites being closed down and their administrators imprisoned.]

[RevSouth]

Moderated

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 10:14 AM



learn different tactics that includes guerilla tactics. train in forests, plains, swamps or anything near by. city fighting will be impossible to train for. hunting will help overall training and if you can't buy a gun buy a bow and many sets of arrows or crossbow and bolts.

Lets take a look at what you just said. Now lets think for a second, do most of us live in urban areas or in a swamp? Revolutionary action takes place where there are proletarians (urban areas). I've never heard of street fighting taking place in a forest, so why exactly should WORKERS spend time training to fight like guerillas? That makes no sense. If you people spent half the energy on spreading class counciousness that you do thinking about stuff like this we'd be having the damn revolution already.