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chimx
4th August 2006, 18:32
I have been rereading bits and pieces of writings by marx on labor and reflecting on the consequences of marxism on our age of technology. marx says,

"the division of labour implies the contradiction between the interest of the separate individual or the individual family and the communal interest of all individuals who have intercourse with one another. And indeed, this communal interest does not exist merely in the imagination, as the “general interest,” but first of all in reality, as the mutual interdependence of the individuals among whom the labour is divided. And finally, the division of labour offers us the first example of how, as long as man remains in natural society, that is, as long as a cleavage exists between the particular and the common interest, as long, therefore, as activity is not voluntarily, but naturally, divided, man’s own deed becomes an alien power opposed to him, which enslaves him instead of being controlled by him. For as soon as the distribution of labour comes into being, each man has a particular, exclusive sphere of activity, which is forced upon him and from which he cannot escape."

this particular wording of alienated labor almost seems to imply that it is not alienated labor itself which is an evil, but that it is "naturally" divided instead of "voluntarily" decided upon. that the crux of the problem with the alienation is our inability to move around within the process of alienation.

but in estranged labor (1844) we read:

"An immediate consequence of man’s estrangement from the product of his labour, his life activity, his species-being, is the estrangement of man from man. When man confront himself, he also confronts other men. What is true of man’s relationship to his labour, to the product of his labour, and to himself, is also true of his relationship to other men, and to the labour and the object of the labour of other men.

In general, the proposition that man is estranged from his species-being means that each man is estranged from the others and that all are estranged from man’s essence."

i fail to see how to apologize this passage with the previous assumption. that so long as production is done through the estrangement of labor, regardless of the voluntary nature of it, alienates man from man.

And this was written in the mid 19th century. I am curious to hear the many technophiles on this forum justify the unchecked pushing of scientific development. the very computer I am writing on is the product of countless countires and countless estranged relationships. on one circuit board on my computer we have the mining of copper, to the melting of plastic, to the chemical etching of the circuits, to the application of the diodes and resistors (which themselves go through their own process of alienated labor), etc. etc. how is it that man can have a direct relationship with the real fruits of his labor and cease the process of alienation given the requirment for labor's division in such a technological age?

The above passage from the Germany Ideology goes on to say that, " He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic."

and with such a blue print i find it easy to see how one can overcome such estrangment. I think it is interesting that the passage does not read "society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to make casts for 6 foot gears used in mills in the morning, make buttons for dress pants in the afternoon, melt sand into glass for window-makers in the evening, etc." you can imagine how much fun you could have with the passage if you advanced it by 200 years.

the result for marx is simple. "This fixation of social activity, this consolidation of what we ourselves produce into an objective power [i]above us, growing out of our control, thwarting our expectations, bringing to naught our calculations, is one of the chief factors in historical development up till now. . . . And out of this very contradiction between the interest of the individual and that of the community the latter takes an independent form as the State, divorced from the real interests of individual and community"



sidenote: if any primitivsts that are restricted to OI would like to reply to this, please PM me and I will post your reply, as I would like to hear both sides of the argument.

vyborg
5th August 2006, 18:50
division of labour means alienation because the worker is no more able to grasp the totality of the production process. this will be a problem also after capitalism. i think no one can answer for the future but i think even immediately after revolution 2 things can help:
a) completely automatization of the more boring and dangerous work
b) frequent change of job.

Of course in order to achieve this u must have a very well trained and skilled work force, this means to reduce substantially the working hours and raising the time spent in education and training. this could also prevent the creation of a permanent bureacracy

chimx
5th August 2006, 22:55
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 03:51 PM
division of labour means alienation because the worker is no more able to grasp the totality of the production process. this will be a problem also after capitalism. i think no one can answer for the future but i think even immediately after revolution 2 things can help:
a) completely automatization of the more boring and dangerous work
b) frequent change of job.

Of course in order to achieve this u must have a very well trained and skilled work force, this means to reduce substantially the working hours and raising the time spent in education and training. this could also prevent the creation of a permanent bureacracy
but automatization means the creation and techonological advancement of machinery. if anything that would perpetuate and substantially increase the degree of alienation a worker has from the product. i find it difficult to fathom a society close to the present's technological abilities where alienation doesn't exist, be the society capitalist or communist. i suppose this is fine for the trots or stalinists that adhere to a more processive evolution to communism via a socialist state, but I would still like to hear how technophile marxists can apologize the alienation of worker to his product within their future communist society.

one can see the appeal of primitivism with such a view. destroy alienation by massive steps forward or massive steps backwards, because estrangement seems inevitable in the here and now.

vyborg
6th August 2006, 17:57
technology is always double faced. capitalists see one of them, some armageddon-prone leftist only the other one.

marxism explaines that there is a capitalist way to use technology but there is also a capitalist way to build and think of them.

if technology allows to avoid miners to dig deep inside the earth because a machine can do it, well i think there is nothing evil in it. the miners will also have more time to get other jobs.

chimx
6th August 2006, 19:08
i agree that would be great, but how are the machines being made? how is alienation in the marxist sense avoided?

vyborg
6th August 2006, 19:19
as i said alienation is something that touches many aspect of the productive process. u cant eliminate it at once. but u can start helping workers to understand the way economy works as a whole so grasping their role in it, helping them to change frequently job etc.

machines enter into it allowing the rapid reduction of the working hours provided that are the workers who use them and not, as now, the machine that utilize workers as a tool for profit

SPK
8th August 2006, 01:37
chimx, if I'm interpreting your question correctly, it seems as if you believe that technology is inherently alienating, irrespective of whether it exists or is developed under capitalism, socialism, or communism.

There are at least a couple of ways to interpret this question.

Do you believe that the source of estrangement is the fact that technology is utilized in the productive process itself, as when a capital good (like a giant piece of machinery) is used in manufacturing commodities (like a bicycle)? From that standpoint, the utilization of technology could be alienating because such technology is ultimately dependent upon a specialized sector of workers who have the complex education, skill, and experience required for the building and maintenance of those computers, machines, and so forth. Such a sector of workers, because they effectively control the most productive forces in the (postrevolutionary) economy, could be installed as an elite with power over other people. This, I think, is a very significant danger, when marxists envision an economy that is founded upon highly developed forces of production (i.e. the traditional marxist vision).

Or is your concern more with the ultimate purpose of the goods being produced, i.e. that they are not for the direct, immediate use of the worker who labored on them, but are made for other parts of a specialized production process? For example, a computer module could be built, not for immediate use by a consumer, but to control and regulate a set of robots on an assembly line. Or a swatch of cloth could be made, again not for the immediate use by the worker – who might sew clothes from it – but for export to another country, where it will be used to make massive volumes of clothing in a factory.

I wanted to get clarity on your concerns, because I’m not sure that anyone has really addressed them yet on this thread.

chimx
9th August 2006, 01:08
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 10:38 PM
chimx, if I'm interpreting your question correctly, it seems as if you believe that technology is inherently alienating, irrespective of whether it exists or is developed under capitalism, socialism, or communism.

There are at least a couple of ways to interpret this question.

Do you believe that the source of estrangement is the fact that technology is utilized in the productive process itself, as when a capital good (like a giant piece of machinery) is used in manufacturing commodities (like a bicycle)? From that standpoint, the utilization of technology could be alienating because such technology is ultimately dependent upon a specialized sector of workers who have the complex education, skill, and experience required for the building and maintenance of those computers, machines, and so forth. Such a sector of workers, because they effectively control the most productive forces in the (postrevolutionary) economy, could be installed as an elite with power over other people. This, I think, is a very significant danger, when marxists envision an economy that is founded upon highly developed forces of production (i.e. the traditional marxist vision).

Or is your concern more with the ultimate purpose of the goods being produced, i.e. that they are not for the direct, immediate use of the worker who labored on them, but are made for other parts of a specialized production process? For example, a computer module could be built, not for immediate use by a consumer, but to control and regulate a set of robots on an assembly line. Or a swatch of cloth could be made, again not for the immediate use by the worker – who might sew clothes from it – but for export to another country, where it will be used to make massive volumes of clothing in a factory.

I wanted to get clarity on your concerns, because I’m not sure that anyone has really addressed them yet on this thread.
my point was directed to the latter. that the complexity of 21st century production and the technologic revolutions undergone in the past few decades has made the degree of alienation present in the workplace ten fold what marx witnessed in 19th century eruope. labor is alienated from the product today, not only by the technological necessity of labor division, but by oceans and mountains as well with the growth of global trade. there are marxist technophiles on this forum that are quick to make snide comments to primitivists and restrict them to OI, yet I think those marxist dervied primitivists that have a clear understanding of marx's thoughts on alientation raise good points, and I wanted to hear how one can justify a perpetual labor division, and thus an alienated workforce, in a post revolutionary technologic society.

though your first point is also certainly important, but that could take a whole new thread of debate.

SPK
13th August 2006, 22:16
Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 05:09 PM
that the complexity of 21st century production and the technologic revolutions undergone in the past few decades has made the degree of alienation present in the workplace ten fold what marx witnessed in 19th century eruope. labor is alienated from the product today, not only by the technological necessity of labor division, but by oceans and mountains as well with the growth of global trade. there are marxist technophiles on this forum that are quick to make snide comments to primitivists and restrict them to OI, yet I think those marxist dervied primitivists that have a clear understanding of marx's thoughts on alientation raise good points, and I wanted to hear how one can justify a perpetual labor division, and thus an alienated workforce, in a post revolutionary technologic society.


Well, I'm not too familiar with primitivist thought. :unsure: Do you have a link to any writings on the web that make the specific argument you're discussing?

You note in your example that production today is global in character: Production of certain items, like mass consumer goods, tends to be concentrated in lower-wage countries like China. Services like information technology are increasingly concentrated in other countries, like India. And so on. These items or services are usually made for export, and not for the direct, immediate use of the worker who actually made them. So that situation, where the products of a person's labor are being pushed to the other side of the planet, seems to be one of alienation.

But -- and I'm just making some educated guesses here about how primitivists think about these questions -- I don't believe primitivists would merely be concerned about global or international production. They certainly wouldn't want goods shipped off to another country (I know we won't have states after the revolution, so maybe I should say that they wouldn't want their products sent off to another workers' federation or bioregion or whatever). But I also don't think that they would want the products of their labor pushed off to another far-off part of their federation or bioregion. Or -- am I wrong on this? -- off to another part of their city or community. Or off down the road to a neighbor? Or off to another member of their collective? Or off to another member of their family? Or off to another person at all? If you're defining alienation as the simple separation of the individual worker from the product of that worker's labor, then any of the above conditions would logically lead to such estrangement. Does such a definition make any sense?

I suppose there are "hyper-individualistic" primitivists who would reject absolutely all forms of collectivity or sociality, i.e. they would work literally only for themselves. (That doesn't sound like fun. :()

But I suspect that most do not really believe that. In other words, they do view work as valid and legitimate, and not leading to estrangement or alientation, within a certain collective or social formation. In such a formation, goods and products would be shared, as well as skills and knowledge related to different kinds of labor. If someone didn't know how to sew clothes, someone else could do it for them, either as part of an explicit exchange or as part of the everyday functioning of the community. If someone didn't know how to choose the correct bait for fishing, or how to hunt with a bow and arrow, then someone would have to teach them.

So, I don't think it is quite correct to equate alientation with the simple separation of the individual worker from the product of that worker's labor. And I'm guessing that many primitivists do have some definition of how people would be able to labor in a collective or social setting, while avoiding that kind of estrangement. How do they think about that question, i.e. of the communities in which people will live and work on a day-to-day basis?

chimx
14th August 2006, 08:35
i don't want to change the topic to a debate on primitivism, as it is an ideology i'm in disagreement with, though I feel it raises interesting concerns. I was more interested in hearing what primitivists feel about labor division in a technologically based communist society. i'm more interested by:


In such a formation, goods and products would be shared, as well as skills and knowledge related to different kinds of labor.

so estrangement can be avoided in certain "social formations" provided educational avenues are available which provide the potential to teach the laborer any aspect of the production process? simply knowing that one could be instrumental in any facet of production process is enough to break down the barriers of alienation?

I suppose my rebuttal would be, in any technological community, is that kind of potential even possible? can one realistically know about every aspect of a computer's production process and still have a productive industry to supply a technological society? if not, that "knowing" mentioned above dies and alienation sets in once again.

I dunno, i think it is a serios issue that is often swept under the carpet by far too many marxists.

vyborg
15th August 2006, 12:12
i think marxism can safely assume that the way humankind relates itself to labour is linked to the social division of labour, ie the ruling production relationship. so we can say that alienation is not something inherent to the human nature but something history created at a certain stage of development.

what will be the future, i mean, after the transition stage to socialism, is difficult as well as useless to state. Marx said we do not offer recipes for the restaurant of the future