Mexico Elections

[Global_Justice]

i know they are camping out in the centre of mexico city, do you think this is a good idea? they are pissing off alot of people but i suppose they have to do it because they need to put pressure on the people deciding whether there will be a recount.

also, i haven't seen anything about ezln's thoughts on it? do they and subcommandnate marcos support the protestors?

[Sadena Meti]

Delegado Zero (fromerly known as Subcomandante Marcos) isn't involved in this dispute. He rejects all three parties, and rightly so.

Overall, the tactics are good. With a margin that thin, even if there was no fraud, there's a good chance a manual recount would overturn it. And another recount would overturn that. Etc.

Also, as some fraud did occur, the recount will almost certainly overturn the result. And the great thing is there is no good argument against the recount. I am sure it will happen, and if it doesn't, even better. It will appears as a clear electorial theft, priming the masses for action.


Mmmm... a revolution right on our doorstep... delicious.

[CheRev]

I think it's good. Even though Obradar isn't what we would like in power he will now be forced into a more radical stance than he would have been if elected directly into power purely because of the debt he will owe to the people protesting on his behalf - they will expect a lot from him after this!

Ps. the main people the protestors are pissing off are the bourgeoisie trying to get to their offices. No problem with that...

[Marion]

Originally posted by rev-[email protected] 3 2006, 02:58 PM
Delegado Zero (fromerly known as Subcomandante Marcos) isn't involved in this dispute. He rejects all three parties, and rightly so.


Although Marcos has rejected the three main parties in Mexico, the EZLN have denounced the election fraud in Mexico and have supported those battling against the fraud. There has been suggestions that there may be a march from Chiapas to Mexico City in support although this very much sounds just like one idea among many.

Despite coming out against the fraud Marcos is most definitely not supporting Obrador himself. He came out heavily against him prior to the election, likening him to Salinas and saying there was no difference between the PRD and the PRI or PAN.

Of course, the dynamics are very interesting as a lot of PRD supporters are upset with the Zapatistas for not supporting them during the election (especially as it turned out being so tight)...

[Domino]

First of all, the EZLN does not backup any of this "fraud" bull. It's driving me nuts, not only the bourgeoisie are pissed off. I am quite surprised at that statement. Taxi and bus drivers are losing a lot of money. They are not bourgeoisie.

I wish they would just make Obrador shut up for good. What I hate is how everyone calls Obrador a leftist, when none of the leftists I know support him, myself included. And most of all, when he has so much money and he pays millions to his driver. And Marcelo Ebrard, also from Obrador's party, just got married and his gift table was at one of the most expensive and luxurious shops in Mexico. Right, the poor first. :rolleyes: I hope someone "deletes" Obrador soon.

[Marion]

Marcos certainly is supporting the claim that the election was fraudulent. If not, then how do you explain the following interview:

http://www.narconews.com/Issue42/article1961.html

Agree with you about Obrador though...

[Domino]

That was two days after the elections though. A lot of people really thought there was a fraud of some sort then. But each day, less and less people think so. I haven't heard anything new from Marcos since Obrador started losing followers. The EZLN were trying to free the Atenco prisoners, and then things got worse in Oaxaca, which is the last time I heard anything new from them, so... to be honest I don't think he really backs the idea of a fraud anymore with the way Obrador is rallying people. I mean, Obrador of all people. Marcos should make a new statement on that, but in any case, Obrador is just dividing Mexico more, and the worst part is that it is not a working class / bourgeoisie division anymore. It is people with common sense vs. idiots.

[Marion]

Thanks for the post. Yeah, agree that the Zapatistas have been relatively quiet recently on the election fraud and have not really made a major issue out of it yet. There have been suggestions of a march from Chiapas to Mexico City to protest the fraud but am not sure what level of support this has amongst the Zapatistas. I think there's probably a lot of internal discussion about the best way for the Zapatistas to move forward given what's happened in the election, the pledge to support the Atenco prisoners and the suspension of La Otra.

What is your view on the fraud? From what I've read there are certain bits of supposed evidence that have been pretty much disproved (e.g. the video of the guy supposedly stuffing ballot boxes) but other "irregularities" that haven't.

Presumably the 9% recount announced by the election tribunal isn't going to make any difference to the final outcome?

[Domino]

No problem. Yeah, it would be good to know where they stand right now on this whole thing. The way I see it, to backup the idea of a fraud is to backup Obrador, since he is the only one out of all parties who says there was a fraud. So in my opinion (and by this I obviously don't mean to say it doesn't matter who wins) I think there are many things, more important at this moment, that Zapatistas have to deal with. As we said, Atenco and La Otra Campaña.

My view on the fraud... I don't think there was a fraud. Which doesn't mean I am happy that Calderón won, but I think the elections were very clean this time around. I think we would have a very nice view, as a country, on how our elections took place if it weren't for Obrador, who made a scandal out of it. The evidence was laughable. Like the video you mentioned, which ended up being one of the volunteers themselves who was obviously placing the ballots in the right box. It is common, people get mixed up with the colours and some put the Governor ballot in the President box. People I know have been volunteers in past elections and it is a common problem, so according to the colours, they have to just put the ballots in the right box. So that is why that "evidence" was dismissed. The problem is that all of his evidence is just as laughable. So I don't think there was a fraud. It would be easier for the guy to come out and say he doesn't want to lose, I mean come on.

I hope it won't make a difference. Because if this man is throwing this type of fit now, I really don't want to know what he is going to do if he becomes a president. He does not have enough brain to run a country. And if that was to happen, I have a feeling that's when the EZLN would put a stop to it. Or at least I hope so.

[Janus]

Obrador is now calling for his supporters to march on the electoral tribune and demand a full recount.

Obrador vows to keep up protests (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5251252.stm)

[bolshevik butcher]

It's actually unbelievable that he bourgeoirse hasn't handed Obrador the vicotry, he doesn't rpesent nearly as much a threat to them as this awakening of the mexican working class does. Obrador can only ride them for so long, they might buck him off and push for a full scale revolution at this rate. The EZLN stance on this is actually unbelieveable. According to comrades in Mexico there supporters are now mocked at marches as they have only just taken a stand agianst fraud, and their own supporters were annoyed at their refusal to back Obrador. The EZLN have been in steady decline since the famous rally in Mexico city in 2001.

[Enragé]

Obrador is a reformist piece of fucking shit.

still, elections in mexico are never fair.

I read not long ago an article about wealthy landowners telling their employees what to vote...or else..
is this likely to be true? (question for people in mexico ;) )



also i cant believe some people here are *****ing at them for not supporting Obrador
if they would have done that you'd be screaming "REFORMISTS!"

[bolshevik butcher]

Actually I wouldn't. Sure he is a reformist but he is the elft wing candidate who the masses are rallying around, and if they supported him they could agitate withing the working class movment and puruse a radical program, to show the real alternative.

[Marion]

Originally posted by bolshevik [email protected] 7 2006, 05:28 PM
It's actually unbelievable that he bourgeoirse hasn't handed Obrador the vicotry, he doesn't rpesent nearly as much a threat to them as this awakening of the mexican working class does. Obrador can only ride them for so long, they might buck him off and push for a full scale revolution at this rate. The EZLN stance on this is actually unbelieveable. According to comrades in Mexico there supporters are now mocked at marches as they have only just taken a stand agianst fraud, and their own supporters were annoyed at their refusal to back Obrador. The EZLN have been in steady decline since the famous rally in Mexico city in 2001.
Interesting post - thanks. I'm not sure how much the Obrador movement represents the possibility of the awakening of the Mexican working class. Perhaps those in charge have judged things correctly from their perspective?

The Zapatista stance prior to the elections was not telling people to vote or not vote, and not telling them who to vote for, but its pretty clear from a number of speeches that they weren't keen on Obrador. To be honest, given the cross-over between the PRI and the PRD, and the fact that Zapatistas have been attacked by PRD in the past those who were expecting the Zapatistas to endorse Obrador were asking a bit too much.

While I think a very small proportion of Zapatistas and a higher proportion of those sympathetic to them perhaps voted for Obrador its probably going a bit far to suggest that "their own supporters were annoyed at their refusal to back Obrador". I haven't seen any evidence that there was anything approaching annoyance among the Zapatistas at this, but am happy if anyone with more knowledge can provide details to the contrary...

The question as to the decline of the Zapatistas since 2001 is an open one. The Otra is still open as a possibility and, in retrospect, much of the time since 2001 has been one of consolidation and planning. I think it is wrong, however, simply to judge them by the lack of large set-piece occasions (not that BB is doing this)...

[bolshevik butcher]

Well to be honest i juged this on freedback from mexico, where comrades say that attendance at their recent alternative tour has been lower than they could previously managed. Allegedly at recent demonstraions many workers have criticised the zaptaista stance. As i say all this is based on what mexican comrades have said.

I agree that it is not Obrador as an individual that represents this, it is the movment behind him. Similarly chavez does not represent the awakening of the Venezuelan working class, but the bolivarian movment certainly does represent a new level of class consciousness in Venezuela. Obrador in my view is not the key to the mexican working class' emancipation, infact he is desperatley crying out for compromise with the bourgeoirse. However, I don't know if he will get it, and if he gets into power and fials the working class I am unsure ofhow long he would last. Thankyou for replying in such a comradley manner.

[Domino]

I'm Mexican and I live in Mexico City. Was born and have always lived here, so... from my own perspective, which I have already pointed out in previous posts to this thread, is that those who back Obrador are obviously against the EZLN, since Obrador and the EZLN are against each other. On March I went to a rally in which Marcos said he was sorry if he offended anyone, but he said Obrador is an asshole (in other words, of course!) Everyone cheered and clapped to that statement. I hope they shut up Obrador. He is not making a working class movement, because a lot of working class people do NOT support him. He is only moving those people who are, sadly, stupid enough to let themselves be manipulated by him. The good thing is that the more people I ask, I find that less people back him up now. All of these people I know are working class.



I read not long ago an article about wealthy landowners telling their employees what to vote...or else.. is this likely to be true? (question for people in mexico)

I think it could have been true before. Now I am not so sure, but that is a matter of point of view, because at this rate, no matter how much you tell someone who they should vote for, I think people will vote for whomever they want since votes are secret. And-- well that sounds too 1910 to me. :P

[Marion]

Attendance at La Otra events has in some quarters been judged to be "down" on what was achieved in 2001. Others have compared it pretty favourably to what the likes of Calderon were getting a few months prior to the election.

The key point for La Otra, however, is that it is not about getting a mass number of people campaigning and having demonstrations. It is (in its present stage) mainly about listening to the struggles others are involved in, and working out what links can be made between them. I'd note in passing, that as Atenco showed, this doesn't mean that action is not included in La Otra. However, as its not about mass demonstrations, comparing it to 2001 in terms of audience numbers is not accurate.

I do think, however, that it is too early to judge the success of La Otra and that it is not by any means certain that it will succeed (especially given that its on hold at the moment). I think its a risk worth taking though...

PS I'm certainly sure that a proportion of Mexican workers have criticised the Zapatistas for their electoral stance and that this has always happened. However, I think a few may be re-assessing their view given that Marcos has continually criticised the electoral system for being a shambles and his prediction has pretty much been realised.

[Enragé]

I think people will vote for whomever they want since votes are secret

well, couldnt the landowners bribe those who count the votes?


And-- well that sounds too 1910 to me

It happened in spain prior to the civil war.
That way the monarchists got elected even though everyone hated 'em :P

[Domino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 02:52 PM
well, couldnt the landowners bribe those who count the votes?
Naw, not really. I mean, they could, but since the volunteers who count the votes are common people, they are just as tired as the rest of crooked elections. That's probably the kind of thing Obrador would think, since the volunteers themselves are offended that the guy is telling them there was a fraud. For example, my uncle was the head of volunteers at the polls in his district, and he is one of the most righteous people I know. Calderón won there, and so on. But Obrador is too fucking stubborn to admit it.


It happened in spain prior to the civil war. That way the monarchists got elected even though everyone hated 'em :P

I think we also saw a lot of that in the past elections, but since the last election, in which the PRI lost, I think things have taken quite a turn.

[Janus]

I wouldn't say that Obrador is "awakening" the masses but that he is hijacking and using them for his own purposes.

But it looks like there may be a partial recount.

Election protesters plan rally in Mexico (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060807/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_elections)

[Rawthentic]

Revolution in Mexico at this point would not be a good idea and would actually be a disaster I believe. Mexico is going through many changes. One is, a change of power from PRI to PAN after 70 years of rule by PRI. I was in Durango, Mexico for a month and saw how people honestly beleived that elections were a fountain of change. Revolution must be made when people lose trust in it and learn that the only way for fundamental progress is through revolution. Also, despite the vulgar class divisions, class consciousness is nearly invisible, it is not there, people are not aware of their situations. A Mexican revolution is quite far I beleive, but you never know, they might just get fed up with whats going on and rise up, but if they do, I fear it would be a Leninist revolution and would end up like Cuba, a communist project would not succeed, the revolution would be to install a more democratic government.

[Janus]

Looks like there will be a partial vote recount due to the protests and threats that have been going on for the past few weeks.

Officials begin vote recount in Mexico (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060809/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_elections)

[Karl Marx's Camel]

tetelives, it's nice to have someone where it's happening.

Apparently, according to AP, the protesters started shouting "revolution!". What do you make out of this? Is it just reformists being pissed and wanting to sound radical, or is this really turning into radicalization of the working class?

[Rawthentic]

No way, its ridiculous that people are chanting "revolution" for a goddam bourgeios candidate. This is no revolution no matter how much Obrador preaches it to be, not that he does, which makes it even more stupid regard this as a revolution.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The revolution can grow out of working people uniting, taking action, and seeing the bourgeois electoral process for the bullshit it is. Of course the reformist Obrador doesn't want this to happen; but that doesn't mean that it won't.

And we've been down the Zapatista road before.. their whole thing has been "armed reformism" (in practice) from the gate.

The fight of workers and farmers in Mexico (and especially coming off of the heels of the monumental steel workers and teachers strikes), needs to be fully supported and strengthened by revolutionaries; but we also need to do our best to win them over to a truly revolutionary position. These events give us a good opportunity to do so.

[Louis Pio]

I think Lennie Jusche hit the nail right on the spot. First off let's be clear, the zapatistas has failed miserablely at connecting with the mass of mexican workers, both because of their "armed reformism" (which ain't even armed anymore) and because of their seperatism. And the result is that nobody listens to Marcos (or whatever he calls himself these days).

All that has been said about Obrador is true, but it is however not the point. The point is what hopes the bulk of Mexican workers put in him. The capitalists know this, which is why they commited fraud even though Obrador went to grat lenghts to submit to their wishes. A candidate like Obrador brought to power on the back of a massmovement would just be a recipe for even bigger movements which the bourgiosie knows. I find it extremely ironic that the people claiming to be very r-r-revolutionary actually limits their understanding of the processes going on to that of mere parliamentary democracy instead of looking at the classforces at work behind all of this. That's just secterian and the recipe for total isolation. Instead we should support the workers in their fight and always put forward our own policy, not limit ourselves to hysterical denounciations which never works.

[Ligeia]

well,I actually was there..almost everyday till I returned back home when they marched to the TRIFE.

And I think,people there voted for him as he( when he was mayor of the D.F.) helped with social service for elderly people and single mothers and for many mexicans this help is much better than what they had before,

what Obrador demands may be a welfare state but people there hadn`t a welfare state before but total capitalism( of course welfare states are also capitalist but are more often agitators than victims in capitalism).

Surely that may not be left for us but for others there, it is .... furthermore even the communist party supports his demand and also the younger part of this party ( but that`s not very relevant).

I even saw a EZLN camp there...doesn`t matter.....after all many people there almost everyday shout "si no habra solucion,habra revolucion"(when there`s no solution,there`ll be revolution) but as this movement is pacifist they (Obrador and so on) calm them down...

I'm even not sure if they really mean that , some wanted to take the airport and others the national palace but which aim do those have who wish revolution as they are supporters of Obrador?

I can`t imagine they`ll lose control, they make new elections or really count all votes again if this is going further.

[Cheung Mo]

Mexico had some level of socialism before PRI started moving to authoritarian neo-liberalism...PRI has always been extremely authoritarian regardless of its economic ideology though.

[Sadena Meti]

End of the World in Mexico City.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4784515.stm

So the streets are packed with protests, and now it's hit by an earthquake.

If you had to interpret this superstitiously, which side is the earthquake on, right or left? :)

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yeah, Obrador has shown his true colors of course. This is just like what happened with Evo Morales during the 2nd Gas Wars. The masses of workers and farmers are becoming more and more radical, and Obrador serves the bourgeoisie by trying to reign them in.

Aparently thousands of Mexicans wanted to march on the Airports and shut them down after they announced there wouldn't be a full recount; but Obrador told them all not too...

[Javier Vega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 01:24 PM
I think Lennie Jusche hit the nail right on the spot. First off let's be clear, the zapatistas has failed miserablely at connecting with the mass of mexican workers, both because of their "armed reformism" (which ain't even armed anymore) and because of their seperatism. And the result is that nobody listens to Marcos (or whatever he calls himself these days).


This is my first message. I am sorry for using it to correct someone

Teis:

I just want to make a comment. The zapatistas are NOT separatists. I don´t know why so many people out of Mexico believe that.

[Louis Pio]

Probably because that's the impression you get from hearing them speak or looking at their actions, my bad. However it doesn't change the fact that they are totally isolated, which seems to be because of their politics.

[Javier Vega]

Another misconception is that "they are not armed anymore". If what you mean is that there is no open war, that is true. There was open war only for a week or so in January 1994. However, they are still armed. Nothing has changed in that respect. If anything they have radicalized in the last few years.

I agree that they are more isolated now. But it is a direct consequence of their strong criticism of Lopez Obrador in electoral times. I don´t think it has relation to their "armed reformism" and even less to their non-existent separatism.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

They started a "war" that they didn't even think they could win. They stopped fighting actively very soon after they started. They sought to use a short uprising to exact changes, but didn't want to take it all the way to revolution. This is armed reformism.

[Louis Pio]

Once again I agree. They started fighting with no perspective and they stopped fighting with no perspective. Nomatter what new name Marcos will cook up for himself that won't change anything att all. The thing with the zapatistas is that they have no roots what so ever in the mexican working class which leaves them totally impotent in this important situation.
For the spanish speaking I will suggest this website Militante (http://www.militante.org/)

[Rawthentic]

Marcos and the EZLN represent the struggle that the inigenous peoples of Chiapas and Mexico face against the brutality of the Mexican government and US imperialism, a struggle that the ordinary Mexican working class also faces.

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 04:11 PM
Marcos and the EZLN represent the struggle that the inigenous peoples of Chiapas and Mexico face against the brutality of the Mexican government and US imperialism, a struggle that the ordinary Mexican working class also faces.
Which is why the Zapatistas' arrogant refusal to reach out to the working class is nothing short of treachery to the cause of the Mexican revolution.