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BobKKKindle$
3rd August 2006, 12:03
Science and Environment would probably be the more suitable forum for this discussion, but due to my recent restriction, and the highly contentious nature of this material, I shall post this in OI

I have just finished watching an Adam Curtis (Power of Nightmares, Pandora's box, etc) documentary entitled century of the self which, in the spirit of the frankfurt school of Lefitsts, examines the way that Capitalism works in modern highly developed democracies. Curtis aruges that the freudian theory of Psychoanalysis has implications for the way in which individuals act within 'democratic' societies.

Freud believed that within the subconscious, the part of our psyche that we are not aware of and do not have control over, there lie primal sexual and agressive forces. These forces do not obey logic, rationality, and reason, but are instead highly unpredictable and are based upon emotion and passion. These are particualry prevelent within crowds.He argued that allowing these primal forces to determine our behaviour would lead to the breakdown of Society and the destruction of order and organised heirachy.....which is what we want.

And so, in order to prevent these forces from destroying society as we know it, an associate of Freud, Eduard Bernays, believed that it was necessary for compaines to appeal to people's emotions, thereby creating desire for goods and services based not on their utility, or on necessity, but rather on the intangible qualities that are associated with said goods and services. By satisfying these created wants, the economy would not only remain stable, but citizens would be kept in a state of docility and subservience, preventing the subconscious forces from emerging.

It is commonly accepted that when material conditions reach a certain level of poverty and deprivation, people question society. Think about this from the Freudian perspective - when people no longer have acess to the 'happiness machines' - they are no longer subjected to docility, and the subconscious forces begin to emerge.

"We must shift America from a needs- to a desires-culture. People must be trained to desire, to want new things, even before the old have been entirely consumed. [...] Man's desires must overshadow his needs."

The above 'tactics' of appealing to emotion and associative qualities, and the idea that we do not act on a rational basis, also had implications for politics - if we act irrationally, then it follows that democracy needs to be reconsidered. This led to the 'engineering of consent' that exists in modern liberal western democracies.

Any thoughts? Criticism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_Of_The_Self

Zero
3rd August 2006, 21:40
Very well written, I've seen the effects of advertising in my own life, and even more in the lives of those with large supplies of money.

P.S. Why did you get restricted? I always enjoyed reading your posts.

Janus
3rd August 2006, 22:28
I don't see why anyone needs to bring Freud into this especially when most of his ideas have been debunked.

I think social psychologists do a much better job of analyzing the individual in certain societal societies than some psychoanalyst ever can.

Tigerman
3rd August 2006, 22:35
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 09:04 AM
Science and Environment would probably be the more suitable forum for this discussion, but due to my recent restriction, and the highly contentious nature of this material, I shall post this in OI

I have just finished watching an Adam Curtis (Power of Nightmares, Pandora's box, etc) documentary entitled century of the self which, in the spirit of the frankfurt school of Lefitsts, examines the way that Capitalism works in modern highly developed democracies. Curtis aruges that the freudian theory of Psychoanalysis has implications for the way in which individuals act within 'democratic' societies.

Freud believed that within the subconscious, the part of our psyche that we are not aware of and do not have control over, there lie primal sexual and agressive forces. These forces do not obey logic, rationality, and reason, but are instead highly unpredictable and are based upon emotion and passion. These are particualry prevelent within crowds.He argued that allowing these primal forces to determine our behaviour would lead to the breakdown of Society and the destruction of order and organised heirachy.....which is what we want.

And so, in order to prevent these forces from destroying society as we know it, an associate of Freud, Eduard Bernays, believed that it was necessary for compaines to appeal to people's emotions, thereby creating desire for goods and services based not on their utility, or on necessity, but rather on the intangible qualities that are associated with said goods and services. By satisfying these created wants, the economy would not only remain stable, but citizens would be kept in a state of docility and subservience, preventing the subconscious forces from emerging.

It is commonly accepted that when material conditions reach a certain level of poverty and deprivation, people question society. Think about this from the Freudian perspective - when people no longer have acess to the 'happiness machines' - they are no longer subjected to docility, and the subconscious forces begin to emerge.

"We must shift America from a needs- to a desires-culture. People must be trained to desire, to want new things, even before the old have been entirely consumed. [...] Man's desires must overshadow his needs."

The above 'tactics' of appealing to emotion and associative qualities, and the idea that we do not act on a rational basis, also had implications for politics - if we act irrationally, then it follows that democracy needs to be reconsidered. This led to the 'engineering of consent' that exists in modern liberal western democracies.

Any thoughts? Criticism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_Of_The_Self
Freud was the greatest charlatan of the 20th century.


http://www.mises.com/humanaction/chap1sec2.asp


Ludwig von Mises on


On Instincts and Impulses



One does not further the comprehension of the fundamental problem of human action by the methods of instinct-sociology. This school classifies the various concrete goals of human action and assigns to each class a special instinct as its motive. Man appears as a being driven by various innate instincts and dispositions. It is assumed that this explanation demolishes once for all the odious teachings of economics and utilitarian ethics. However, Feuerbach has already justly observed that every instinct is an instinct to happiness [2]. The method of instinct-psychology and instinct-sociology consists in an arbitrary classification of the immediate goals of action and in a hypostasis of each. Whereas praxeology says that the goal of an action is to remove [p. 16] a certain uneasiness, instinct-psychology says it is the satisfaction of an instinctive urge.

Many champions of the instinct school are convinced that they have proved that action is not determined by reason, but stems from the profound depths of innate forces, impulses, instincts, and dispositions which are not open to any rational elucidation. They are certain they have succeeded in exposing the shallowness of rationalism and disparage economics as "a tissue of false conclusions drawn from false psychological assumptions." [3] Yet rationalism, praxeology, and economics do not deal with the ultimate springs and goals of action, but with the means applied for the attainment of an end sought. However unfathomable the depths may be from which an impulse or instinct emerges, the means which man chooses for its satisfaction are determined by a rational consideration of expense and success. [4]

He who acts under an emotional impulse also acts. What distinguishes an emotional action from other actions is the valuation of input and output. Emotions disarrange valuations. Inflamed with passion, man sees the goal as more desirable and the price he has to pay for it as less burdensome than he would in cool deliberation. Men have never doubted that even in the state of emotion means and ends are pondered and that it is possible to influence the outcome of this deliberation by rendering more costly the yielding to the passionate impulse. To punish criminal offenses committed in a state of emotional excitement or intoxication more mildly than other offenses is tantamount to encouraging such excesses. The threat of severe retaliation does not fail to deter even people driven by seemingly irresistible passion.

We interpret animal behavior on the assumption that the animal yields to the impulse which prevails at the moment. As we observe that the animal feeds, cohabits, and attacks other animals or men, we speak of its instincts of nourishment, of reproduction, and of aggression. We assume that such instincts are innate and peremptorily ask for satisfaction.

But is different with man. Man is not a being who cannot help yielding to the impulse that most urgently asks for satisfaction. Man is a being capable of subduing his instincts, emotions, and impulses; he can rationalize his behavior. He renounces the satisfaction of a burning impulse in order to satisfy other desires. He is not a puppet of his appetites. A man does not ravish every female that stirs his senses; he does not devour every piece of food that entices him; he does not knock down every fellow he would like to kill. He arranges [p. 17] his wishes and desires into a scale, he chooses; in short, he acts. What distinguishes man from beasts is precisely that he adjusts his behavior deliberatively. Man is the being that has inhibitions, that can master his impulses and desires, that has the power to suppress instinctive desires and impulses.

It may happen that an impulse emerges with such vehemence that no disadvantage which its satisfaction may cause appears great enough to prevent the individual from satisfying it. In this case too there is choosing. Man decides in favor of yielding to the desire concerned. [5]




I would think that Mises' observations are much more insightful than Frued.

The notion that man can not control himself is layed to rest.


Even in the heat of the most passionate acts man chooses.

There is always a choice and every human being has free-will that can not be overcome by impulse or emotion.


Now on to the stupidest idea I ever heard.... that business propaganda can somehow control people.


http://www.mises.com/humanaction/chap15sec13.asp


XV. THE MARKET
13. Business Propaganda
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The consumer is not omniscient. He does not know where he can obtain at the cheapest price what he is looking for. Very often he does not even know what kind of commodity or service is suitable to remove most efficaciously the particular uneasiness he wants to remove. At best he is familiar with the market conditions of the immediate past and arranges his plans on the basis of this information. To convey to him information about the actual state of the market is the task of business propaganda.

Business propaganda must be obtrusive and blatant. It is its aim to attract the attention of slow people, to rouse latent wishes, to entice men to substitute innovation for inert clinging to traditional routine. In order to succeed, advertising must be adjusted to the mentality of the people courted. It must suit their tastes and speak their idiom. Advertising is shrill, noisy, coarse, puffing, because the public does not react to dignified allusions. It is the bad taste of the public that forces the advertisers to display bad taste in their publicity campaigns. The art of advertising has evolved into a branch of applied psychology, a sister discipline of pedagogy.

Like all things designed to suit the taste of the masses, advertising is repellent to people of delicate feeling. This abhorrence influences the appraisal of business propaganda. Advertising and all other methods of business propaganda are condemned as one of the most outrageous outgrowths of unlimited competition. It should be forbidden. The consumers should be instructed by impartial experts; the public schools, the "nonpartisan" press, and cooperatives should perform this task.

The restriction of the right of businessmen to advertise their products would restrict the freedom of the consumers to spend their income according to their own wants and desires. It would make it impossible for them to learn as much as they can and want about the state of the market and the conditions which they may consider as relevant in choosing what to buy and what not to buy. They would no longer be in a position to decide on the basis of the opinion which they themselves have formed about the seller's appraisal of his products; they would be forced to act on the recommendation of other people. It is not unlikely that these mentors would save them some mistakes. But the individual consumers would be under the tutelage of guardians. If advertising is not restricted, the consumers are by and large in the position of a jury which learns about the case by hearing the witnesses and examining directly all other means of [p. 321] evidence. If advertising is restricted, they are in the position of a jury to whom an officer reports about the result of his own examination of evidence.

It is a widespread fallacy that skillful advertising can talk the consumers into buying everything that the advertiser wants them to buy. The consumer is, according to this legend, simply defenseless against "high-pressure" advertising. If this were true, success or failure in business would on the mode of advertising only. However, nobody believes that any kind of advertising would have succeeded in making the candlemakers hold the field against the electric bulb, the horsedrivers against the motorcars, the goose quill against the steel pen and later against the fountain pen. But whoever admits this implies that the quality of the commodity advertised is instrumental in bringing about the success of an advertising campaign. Then there is no reason to maintain that advertising is a method of cheating the gullible public.

It is certainly possible for an advertiser to induce a man to try an article which he would not have bought if he had known its qualities beforehand. But as long as advertising is free to all competing firms, the article which is better from the point of view of the consumers' appetites will finally outstrip the less appropriate article, whatever methods of advertising may be applied. The tricks and artifices of advertising are available to the seller of the better product no less than to the seller of the poorer product. But only the former enjoys the advantage derived from the better quality of his product.

The effects of advertising of commodities are determined by the fact as a rule the buyer is in a position to form a correct opinion about the usefulness of an article bought. The housewife who has tried a particular brand of soap or canned food learns from experience whether it is good for her to buy and consume that product in the future too. Therefore advertising pays the advertiser only if the examination of the first sample bought does not result in the consumer's refusal to buy more of it. It is agreed among businessmen that it does not pay to advertise products other than good ones.

Entirely different are conditions in those fields in which experience cannot teach us anything. The statements of religious, metaphysical, and political propaganda can be neither verified nor falsified by experience. With regard to the life beyond and the absolute, any experience is always the experience of complex phenomena which is open to different interpretations; the only yardstick which can be applied to political doctrines is aprioristic reasoning. Thus political [p. 322] propaganda and business propaganda are essentially different things, although they often resort to the same technical methods.

There are many evils for which contemporary technology and therapeutics have no remedy. There are incurable diseases and there are irreparable personal defects. It is a sad fact that some people try to exploit their fellow men's plight by offering them patent medicines. Such quackeries do not make old people young and ugly girls pretty. They only raise hopes. It would not impair the operation of the market if the authorities were to prevent such advertising, the truth of which cannot be evidenced by the methods of the experimental natural sciences. But whoever is ready to grant to the government this power would be inconsistent if he objected to the demand to submit the statements of churches and sects to the same examination. Freedom is indivisible. As soon as one starts to restrict it, one enters upon a decline on which it is difficult to stop. If one assigns to the government the task of making truth prevail in the advertising of perfumes and tooth paste, one cannot contest it the right to look after truth in the more important matters of religion, philosophy, and social ideology.

The idea that business propaganda can force the consumers to submit to the will of the advertisers is spurious. Advertising can never succeed in supplanting better or cheaper goods by poorer goods.

The costs incurred by advertising are, from the point of view of the advertiser, a part of the total bill of production costs. A businessman expends money for advertising if and as far as he expects that the increase in sales resulting will increase the total net proceeds. In this regard there is no difference between the costs of advertising and all other costs of production. An attempt has been made to distinguish between production costs and sales costs. An increase in production costs, it has been said, increases supply, while an increase in sales costs (advertising costs included) increases demand[27]. This is a mistake. All costs of production are expended with the intention of increasing demand. If the manufacturer of candy employs a better raw material, he aims at an increase in demand in the same way as he does in making the wrappings more attractive and his stores more inviting and in spending more for advertisements. In increasing production costs per unit of the product the idea is always to increase demand. If a businessman wants to increase supply, he must increase the total cost of production, which often results in lowering production costs per unit. [p. 323]

Tigerman
3rd August 2006, 22:54
So there you have business propaganda explained like never before, I'm sure.


That is unless you are familiar with Mises or Murray Rothbard.



I don't care how much money someone spends on advertizing black olives.


I don't like them. I pull them off pizza's if I have too.


The advertizers could tell me anything they want about eggs too. Like a fool I once drank raw eggs just like the body builders do. I didn't like the taste of raw eggs and no amount of torture, let alone advertizing could get me to eat raw eggs again.



I like watching Rick Mercer's television show That's the Way It Was.


One show Mercer went to a Museam where all kinds of products I used to see on the shelves were on display. What a trip down memory lane.

Luchbox with Batman caught my eye. I had one as a six year old.

No amount of advertizing would sell Batman Lunchboxes today so advertizers refuse to waste their money.


So if advertizing had any more effect than getting consumers to try a product once, well all those Museam items would still be on the shelves at the toy store and the local grocers.

Matty_UK
3rd August 2006, 23:21
Isn't this basically chapter 1 of Society of the Spectacle except form a different angle?

BobKKKindle$
4th August 2006, 07:44
In the Third Episode, the series covers the attempts of radical leftist groups to break free of this means of social control by allowing their underlying instincts to be released from the docility that is imposed upon Society. Very Inspiring...and somewhat disturbing.


I think social psychologists do a much better job of analyzing the individual in certain societal societies than some psychoanalyst ever can.

Could you refer me to some Texts or Writers? I would be interested to learn more on this subject. I have, on numerous occassions, attempted to read One Dimensional man (Marcuse is actually cited within this documentary in connection with the American Weathermen group) and Society of the Spectacle, as criticisms of Capitalist Society, and I simply found this documentary far more effective in communicating the effects of Consumerism as a means of control.


The restriction of the right of businessmen to advertise their products would restrict the freedom of the consumers to spend their income according to their own wants and desires

In Classical Economics, Demand and Supply are portrayed as being somewhat independent of each other, and they interact in a market environment in order to exchange a commodity or service for money. In theory, the producer (supply) provides commodities based on the wants on the consumer - the producer is, in other words, subservient to the needs of the consumer.

In Theory. The long text that you quoted from is flawed, in that it is only concerned with the utility, the functional use, or an item. When one is only concerned with function, then, yes, the appeal to rational means that advertising will not work beyond a certain extent - if a product is not useful, we will not buy is more than once.

This text fails to deal with the type of advertising that I posted about, that is, the type of advertising that appeals to our underlying irrational desires and instincts through the powers of association. If one purhcases commodities based on their latent, intangible qualities and associations, then advertising becomes immensly powerful. So Powerful, that the wants of the consumer are imposed upon them from above. The Implication of which is that demand becomes interlinked, and borne from supply.


P.S. Why did you get restricted? I always enjoyed reading your posts

Thank you - Apparently I made some comments that could have been interpreted as Pro Life, which apparently means that I cannot be considered a Leftist anymore <_<

Janus
4th August 2006, 09:09
Could you refer me to some Texts or Writers? I would be interested to learn more on this subject. I have, on numerous occassions, attempted to read One Dimensional man (Marcuse is actually cited within this documentary in connection with the American Weathermen group) and Society of the Spectacle, as criticisms of Capitalist Society, and I simply found this documentary far more effective in communicating the effects of Consumerism as a means of control.
I&#39;ve only read textbooks in my psychology class.

Walden II is a pretty good book that analyzes some of this stuff though Skinner wasn&#39;t exactly a social psychologist.

Tigerman
4th August 2006, 23:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 04:45 AM
In the Third Episode, the series covers the attempts of radical leftist groups to break free of this means of social control by allowing their underlying instincts to be released from the docility that is imposed upon Society. Very Inspiring...and somewhat disturbing.


I think social psychologists do a much better job of analyzing the individual in certain societal societies than some psychoanalyst ever can.

Could you refer me to some Texts or Writers? I would be interested to learn more on this subject. I have, on numerous occassions, attempted to read One Dimensional man (Marcuse is actually cited within this documentary in connection with the American Weathermen group) and Society of the Spectacle, as criticisms of Capitalist Society, and I simply found this documentary far more effective in communicating the effects of Consumerism as a means of control.


The restriction of the right of businessmen to advertise their products would restrict the freedom of the consumers to spend their income according to their own wants and desires

In Classical Economics, Demand and Supply are portrayed as being somewhat independent of each other, and they interact in a market environment in order to exchange a commodity or service for money. In theory, the producer (supply) provides commodities based on the wants on the consumer - the producer is, in other words, subservient to the needs of the consumer.

In Theory. The long text that you quoted from is flawed, in that it is only concerned with the utility, the functional use, or an item. When one is only concerned with function, then, yes, the appeal to rational means that advertising will not work beyond a certain extent - if a product is not useful, we will not buy is more than once.

This text fails to deal with the type of advertising that I posted about, that is, the type of advertising that appeals to our underlying irrational desires and instincts through the powers of association. If one purhcases commodities based on their latent, intangible qualities and associations, then advertising becomes immensly powerful. So Powerful, that the wants of the consumer are imposed upon them from above. The Implication of which is that demand becomes interlinked, and borne from supply.


P.S. Why did you get restricted? I always enjoyed reading your posts

Thank you - Apparently I made some comments that could have been interpreted as Pro Life, which apparently means that I cannot be considered a Leftist anymore <_<

This text fails to deal with the type of advertising that I posted about, that is, the type of advertising that appeals to our underlying irrational desires and instincts through the powers of association. If one purhcases commodities based on their latent, intangible qualities and associations, then advertising becomes immensly powerful. So Powerful, that the wants of the consumer are imposed upon them from above. The Implication of which is that demand becomes interlinked, and borne from supply.



There is no such thing as mind control. All persons have free will.

In this world you constructed there seem to be powerful forces akin to voodoo that get ahold of people and make them spend their money against their will.

Name this force from above that is so powerful it can influence my desires.

Do you mean that if they put a sexy blonde next to a Corvette Stingray that I will lose all grasp of reality and purchase the Vet in hope of landing the chick in my bed?


That&#39;s what comes to mind.


Well, only a fool would fall for that old ploy. I saw a show on Wheels once where a resonably good looking man was explaining the facts of life. He was driving a Countash or some exotic car and said that in the 5 years he owned it two gigly girls expressed interest in him because he owned the car. The Women in California are too cool to give you the time of day over your ride.

Well, I only need to be told that once. It confirmed what my Mom told me many years ago.


So give me an example of these overpowering forces.


I mean heroin and crystal meth are out there and I don&#39;t feel any powerful forces drawing me to any of that loser lifestyle.

They don&#39;t even advertise that loser lifestyle on TV or the Radio, yet lots of trouble youth appear to be sold or drawn by these mystical forces that abound.


Did I tell you I&#39;m an athiest? I don&#39;t believe in supernatural forces of any kind getting a hold of people.

I think people can control their impules and their instincts.


Like if these people can&#39;t control their own spending, how can we expect them to control their food or beverage intake? Don&#39;t their saliva glands just go into overproduction and force these people to buy cheeseburgers and fries rather than a soup and salad?

I think that all people can control themselves if they want to. All kinds of irrational things are advertized. I have seen 1000 ads for dildo&#39;s but have yet to have an overpowering urge get ahold of me and shove one where the Sun don&#39;t shine.


Tell me more about these powerful advertizing forces that cause people to do those kinds of things.