Share your ideas about Aztlan.

[Jose Morgan]

Jose Angel Gutierrez, professor, University of Texas, Arlington; founder of La Raza Unida political party:

"We have an aging white America. They are dying. They are ******** in their pants with fear! I love it!" "We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him."

I don't think that bloodshed will be needed to create Aztlan. I do think a little intimidation can go a long way, though, with soft gringos.

Share your vision of AZTLAN! Will Aztlan outshine Mexico and Spain? Yes, ten fold.

[canikickit]

I've no idea what AZTLAN is, but I'll hazard a guess that it has something to do with Arizona and Texas.

[MEXCAN]

Aztlan is the mythical place !!!!!His this professor insane ??

AZTLAN (http://www.mexica.net/aztlan.html)

[Jose Morgan]

Quote: from canikickit on 12:01 am on June 12, 2003
I've no idea what AZTLAN is, but I'll hazard a guess that it has something to do with Arizona and Texas.


Aztlan will encompass the American Southwest and will be a new nation for Hispanics. This land was stolen from the rightful owners and justice will be done.

[Umoja]

Actually the Union Del Barrio also urges for Atzlan to be recreated, and I'm pretty sure they are listed as a leftist party. I'll find a link sometime.

[Pete]

The MIM supports Altzan. The say canada shouldnt exist but Altzan should. And they spelt Canada Kanada so much in the article that it got very annoying.

[Iepilei]

aye crap, and I'll be attending this university. =/

[redstar2000]

I admit to a "soft spot" for any group that wants to break up the American Empire, be it the "Republic of New Africa", "Aztlan", the "Republic of California", or whatever.

At the same time, it seems to me to be a bit "late in the day" to organize solely around nationalism...as if we were still living in the 1800s.

In the case of some advocates of Aztlan, the reactionary core of nationalism is pretty close to the surface...

"We have an aging white America. They are dying. They are ******** in their pants with fear! I love it!" "We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him."

That's not exactly a sentiment that I -- communist gringo that I am -- feel exactly "comfortable" with.

Can you say "ethnic cleansing"?

:cool:

[Vinny Rafarino]

Well put RedStar!!

Just because you intend to be facist against white America does not excuse one simple fact. You're still facists and therefore useless.

When will you realise the dangers of nationalsm? It always leads to a facist mentality. To make light of it, I call it the "gateway drug" of racism. It's starts out innocent enough..."We simply want what we feel is ours"...The next thing you know your cookin' the "Other, Other White Meat in enormous ovens.

You are being a fool Jose and I cannot support you.

[Jose Morgan]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 8:10 am on June 12, 2003

You are being a fool Jose and I cannot support you.


Then support these men:

"We are practicing La Reconquista in California." --Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General

"I have proudly affirmed that the Mexican nation extends beyond the territory enclosed by its borders and that Mexican migrants are an important - a very important - part of this."; Mexican President Ernesto Zedillo, Chicago on July 23, 1997.

"There's a growing feeling 'Why should we pay for all these senior citizens' if the majority of them are white and all they were willing to pay for was prisons?"--Rodolfo Acuna (professor of Chicano studies at Cal State Northridge)

"The American Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot." --Excelsior- The national newspaper of Mexico.

"California is going to be a Hispanic state, and anyone who doesn't like it should leave. They should go back to Europe." --Mario Obledo, co-founder and President of MALDEF, 1968 to 1973; President of the League of United Latin American Citizens 1983-85, California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare 1975-82, awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Bill Clinton

"We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos...non-Latinos aren't watching, they aren't raising questions"--Fernando Guerra, professor, Loyola Marymount

El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán
MEChA (Chicano Student Movement): "Chicano and Chicana students of Aztlan must take upon themselves the responsibilities to promote Chicanismo with the community, politicizing our Raza with an emphasis on indigenous consciousness to continue the struggle for the self-determination of the Chicano people for the purpose of liberating Aztlan." -- preamble to MEChA's national constitution.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I will not support nationalism in any way Jose. You are wrong and this form of rebellion will get you no where. The government will crush your movement quickly and perhaps they should, (that hurt just to type)your ideals are all mixed-up. Your leaders should drop their nationalistic and racist views for socialistic and humanitarian views. Our comrades in South America have known this for decades. Why can't you? Your movement will be defeated by it's own actions well befor it would ever have a chance to flourish.

[Jose Morgan]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 1:24 pm on June 12, 2003
I will not support nationalism in any way Jose. You are wrong and this form of rebellion will get you no where. The government will crush your movement quickly and perhaps they should, (that hurt just to type)your ideals are all mixed-up

We will be the government in the Southwest. What government are you refering to?

[Pete]

North America is going against the forces that exist in the rest of the world, I guess that is what being the centre of imperialism gives us. Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, and Europe (I know I am not saying all the continents, I cannot speak of them because of my lack of knoweldge) are all coming to gether where as North America is as polarized as ever. All "good" Canadians hate America as a tradition. It is bred into us, of course I am not a "good" Canadian and only consider myself Canadian out of habit (in the same way I say "what the hell"). Inside Canada and America there are splinter groups seeking national selfdetermination, and resisting the 'motherland' as much as they resist America (if they are not an American splinter group like the PQ, BQ, the old FLQ ect).

Basically what I am trying to say is an observation that we are the reactionary segment of the world. North America is 100 years behind in its social development, and is looking to divisions instead of better unions. But I must dash to class. One day left of highschool ;)

Altzan, to me, is one of the more racist-nationalistic things I have ever heard of, and should be resisted inorder to promote unity accross all ethnicities in our battle against reaction.

[Hampton]

I don't know if the quotes that Jose put in his first post was supposed to be rhetoric of not, but I know that when people talk about "the man" and "kill whitey" they're not talking about all white people and not people who support them, they're most likely talking about figures of authority that are mostly white like cops, government officals, bosses. So, I'm not sure if that's what he means and he just hasn't seperated the rhetoric from the words that would gather support for his movement.

But, if he really means to kill all white people than I think it's completly insane.

(Edited by Hampton at 1:29 pm on June 13, 2003)

[Jose Morgan]

Quote: from Hampton on 6:28 pm on June 12, 2003
I don't know if the quotes that Jose put in his first post was supposed to be rhetoric of not, but I know that when people talk about "the man" and "kill whitey" they're not talking about all white people and not people who support them, they're most likely talking about figures of authority that are mostly white like cops, government officals, bosses.


I'm talking about a peaceful reclaiming about Aztlan. Like I said, most whites are too soft to stick around and might prefer life outside of Aztlan.

But no, I don't predict or advocate any violence. I think most people in La Raza would say this will be a peaceful process.

[redstar2000]

A curious, and perhaps not accidental, omission in this discussion is the nature of the social order for "Aztlan".

Will Aztlan be a capitalist country?

Will Catholicism be its state religion?

Will women have equal rights, including control of their own fertility? (That's a polite way of asking if abortion will be legal or not.)

Will it be part of NAFTA?

Will black "gringos" have equal rights with Hispanics?

How about Asian "gringos"?

Except in very unusual circumstances, nationalism is a can of worms waiting to be opened. Having decided to open it, don't be shocked by what comes crawling out.

:cool:


(Edited by redstar2000 at 6:42 am on June 13, 2003)

[MEXCAN]

How can you quote Zedillo ???Do you support the PRI ??Maybe you consider that the PRI actually helped Mexico ??
http://www.fzln.org.mx/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/internacional/latuff/zag/Zedillo_Nazista.gif


(Edited by MEXCAN at 12:25 am on June 13, 2003)

[Vinny Rafarino]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 6:51 pm on June 12, 2003
A curious, and perhaps not accidental, omission in this discussion is the nature of the social order for "Aztlan".

Will Aztlan by a capitalist country?

Will Catholicism be its state religion?

Will women have equal rights, including control of their own fertility? (That's a polite way of asking if abortion will be legal or not.)

Will it be part of NAFTA?

Will black "gringos" have equal rights with Hispanics?

How about Asian "gringos"?

Except in very unusual circumstances, nationalism is a can of worms waiting to be opened. Having decided to open it, don't be shocked by what comes crawling out.

:cool:


Good post RS. Jose?

[Jose Morgan]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 6:51 pm on June 12, 2003
A curious, and perhaps not accidental, omission in this discussion is the nature of the social order for "Aztlan".

Will Aztlan be a capitalist country?

Will Catholicism be its state religion?

Will women have equal rights, including control of their own fertility? (That's a polite way of asking if abortion will be legal or not.)

Will it be part of NAFTA?

Will black "gringos" have equal rights with Hispanics?

How about Asian "gringos"?

Except in very unusual circumstances, nationalism is a can of worms waiting to be opened. Having decided to open it, don't be shocked by what comes crawling out.

:cool:


What kind of web site is this where you no nothing about La Raza and our goals?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Kindly direct us to one if there is one...

[Iron Star]

i think the idea is silly. i'ts nothing but mexican nationalism, and will ultimately do nothing but divide the working class even further.

[Severian]

The main task of communists is to combat the nationalism of the oppressing nation. The nationalism of the oppressed is a response to that.

Anyone who goes around opposing the nationalism of the oppressed is probably still to some degree under the sway of U.S. nationalism.

The only way to unite the working class is through support the national rights of workers of the oppressed nationalities. Certainly they're not going to listen to, or unite with, people from the oppressing nationality who lecture them about the need to abandon nationalism, and, essentially, quietly tolerate national oppression until a revolution in the indefinite future.

Heck, the socialist revolution won't magically and instantly resolve all these questions, either.
The fight against national oppression, like the fight against women's oppression, and the fight to end class exploitation, continues after the revolution.

It should also be kept in mind that the Chican nationality is, in its great majority, composed of workers. The rise of Chicano nationalism in the late 60s and early 70s was associated with the beginning of the UFW (farmworkers' union) and with mass protests against the Vietnam War. (Chicano Moratorium) It's a progressive force, and will be a part of the Third American Revolution.

'Course, I've met Chicano nationalists who were real assholes, almost a brown equivalent of Farrakhan's people. But again, a response to the nationalism of the oppressing nation....including its expression on the "left."

[Emmanual Goldstein]

I'm friends with quite a few black/chicano/southeast asian nationalists, but I'd have to say that your whole thing about Aztlan seems to be a bit on the creepy side. I agree with Sevarian to a certain extent, but declaring themselves to be an independant nation seems more than a little reactionary. I support La Raza's goals of rebuilding chicano communities destroyed by poverty, but demanding your own sovereign nation is just going to alienate potential allies. And, as MEXCAN noted, quoting Zedillio isn't any way to make friends on the left. Don't you know what that fascist assed motherfucker did to the Zapatistas?

[Reuben]

Severian, while we may support the legitimate aspirations of hispanics that their national, cultural and economic rights must be met, it is important for leftists to not to be uncritical of nationalism and its effect whether it is nationalism f the oppressed or that of the oppresser. What is necessary in America is inititiatives whichbuild on the comminality of the struggles of all oprressed elemens in the society, not nationalis programs which seek to cut off one particular element. To say such criticism simply indicates that one is under the sway of US nationalism is truly ridiculous

[Severian]

Why is it ridiculous? If you're an internationalist, it's a tenth-rate question whether a border is located in one place or another. The communist objective is united action by working people against the capitalist state, not keeping people within it.

There might be other aspects of some nationalists' program that a communist would object to, that it's bourgeois or petty-bourgeois nationalism in many cases, basically. But the nationalism itself, or the desire to separate....if you're really free of U.S. nationalism yourself, why would you want to stop it?

It's white racism that's divisive of the working class, not the struggle of Blacks, Chicanos, and other oppressed nationalities against white racism.

[redstar2000]

I am bewildered by your response, Jose.

You quote my entire post--a series of questions--and respond...

What kind of web site is this where you know nothing about La Raza and our goals?

It is the kind of web site where people ask questions, even impolite questions, even embarrassing questions.

It is not the kind of web site where people hand out "blank checks" for the asking. For that, try "www.fools.org"--there are lots of them out there.

You want to come here and raise a new nationalist flag...ok, I'm willing to listen. What exactly do you have in mind besides a bunch of silly crap about retired whiteys living in the American Southwest?

You know something? I don't care one way or the other if the American Southwest becomes an independent nation, becomes part of Mexico, remains part of the American Empire, or becomes 100 per cent Spanish-speaking. From a Marxist standpoint, that stuff is trivial.

As I said in my first post to this thread, it's not difficult to get my support for anything that will serve to weaken the American Empire.

But are you really planning to do that? Or do you just have in mind a Hispanic-operated subsidiary of the American Empire...sort of an overgrown Honduras or Panama?

Or have you even thought about this stuff at all?

:cool: