Jews Against Democracy

[infoterr]

Jews Against Democracy


We, the Jewish people, have faced thousands of years as wanderers in the lands of others, persecuted and betrayed endlessly. Nowhere to call our home, nowhere to be safe, we have been at both the mercy and the kindness of our hosts. However, now that there is a state where Jews can now call their own, we believe that the current government of a democracy is NOT what is needed by the Jewish people.

The Jewish people have always thrived on authority. Our sole authority will forever be G-D, but in this earthly existence our leadership has, traditionally, been by respected and learned rabbis and priests of ages past. Authority is even ordained by G-D, is it not so that the Cohanim have a special purpose that the Israelites now have? If choice is made by the Israelites and not the learned Cohanim, then what good is our teachings? If we go even further and extend democracy to the goyim-- who vastly outnumber the Jews --then decisions will not be made for Jews in mind, but for the goyim in mind. Thus another holocaust will occur. A democratic, open-minded holocaust of a mass of smiling people.

We suggest that, to replace this, we Jews remain autonomic in our own state with and only the "best" of Jews nominated for leadership.

(Some of these ideas may work for the goyim nations, but just as we are not democratic, we do not make really care to make decisions for other people.)

Is it not what G-D wants? Is a synagogue not a democracy?

- Rabbi Russel Stone.

I'm new here and found this in my e-mail, and thought I'd share it with people who would know about democracy and Judaism more than I would. I'm a Jew, though not religious, and found this interesting. Can anyone tell me more? Thanks.

[Avtomatov]

its called theocracy.

[CCCPneubauten]

Ermmm....I know Jews who want democracy...I don't get it...is this ment to be Anti-Semetic?

[Eleutherios]

I think that's a great idea. Why don't they walk out into the desert and ask God what their government should do, and do only what God tells them to do? Then they'd have anarchy!

But I doubt that's what they have in mind. They probably want to revive the old Jewish law from the Bible and have that be the legal system. If they really took it all seriously, they'd be selling their daughters into slavery in no time, and stoning gays, Sabbath-workers and disobedient children in their spare time.

[infoterr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 04:21 AM
I think that's a great idea. Why don't they walk out into the desert and ask God what their government should do, and do only what God tells them to do? Then they'd have anarchy!

But I doubt that's what they have in mind. They probably want to revive the old Jewish law from the Bible and have that be the legal system. If they really took it all seriously, they'd be selling their daughters into slavery in no time, and stoning gays, Sabbath-workers and disobedient children in their spare time.
Hey! I may not be religious, but man have some respect, okay?

[Eleutherios]

Respect religion? Hah! You do realize this is a communist message board, don't you? You'll find about as much respect for religion here as you will for capitalism. We shouldn't respect people's beliefs just because they believe them. We should respect people's beliefs only when they make sense.

[infoterr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 04:31 AM
Respect religion? Hah! You do realize this is a communist message board, don't you? You'll find about as much respect for religion here as you will for capitalism. We shouldn't respect people's beliefs just because they believe them. We should respect people's beliefs only when they make sense.
Hey, now, man, I call myself a liberal but I don't go around bashing people's religions. I don't believe it is moral to insult anyone's beliefs. I happen to hold a lot of faith in people, although now I'm beginning to wonder that if democracy might not be all that it is cracked up to be. I don't know.... what could be better though?

Don't be dumping the values religions teach, too. They have some very important morales that are good for everyone, I think.

[Zero]

Communism is not Liberalism.

http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 04:31 AM
We should respect people's beliefs only when they make sense.
that's just not true. i have a non-sensical attachment to stuffed animals, three-toed sloths, and little koala babies with tender marsupiums.. in fact, i like all kind, gentle, and sensitive things.

my ethical values also happen to be arbitrary.. ethics are, at bottom, non-sensical, because they are purely circumstantial, as they exist within the context of a specific society within a specific time. we may, to an extent, biologically feel that cruelty is wrong, and that may very well be the case; through evolution, we might have developed a sort of sensitivity to these things. evolution, however, doesn't justify anything.. it's simply a statement of biological necessity, not any concrete moral code, not, at bottom, anything we logically ought to do.

in that way, all ethical values are non-sensical, circumstantial prejudices. i don't mind, though. i'm sure it bothers a lot of other nihilists, though.

however.. i don't respect religion not only because it doesn't make sense (which, of course, it doesn't.. no sensible person thinks that religion makes sense), but also because of the social consequences that it carries. these social consequences are at odds with my equally-arbitrary ethical values, as some of these values just happen to be logic and sexual freedom, among other profane things.

i typically propose a philosophical and practical minimum tolerance for the irrational.. an affection for baby koalas and sweet old grandmothers are rather harmless transgressions of logic. religion, on the other hand, isn't. so, while i can't offer a logical argument against murder, i can say, however, that the irrational condemnation of murder is a practical necessity for a happy society.

understanding that, i would tolerate the irrational condemnation of murder.

religion, however, i wouldn't.. and not necessarily because it's irrational (although that's certainly a reason for my intolerance).

[Eleutherios]

Hey, now, man, I call myself a liberal
Maybe that's your problem...

but I don't go around bashing people's religions.
Why not?

I don't believe it is moral to insult anyone's beliefs.
Even Nazis?

I happen to hold a lot of faith in people, although now I'm beginning to wonder that if democracy might not be all that it is cracked up to be. I don't know.... what could be better though?
Nothing. But leave it to a liberal to wonder whether imposing his will on others might be better for them than letting the people decide for themselves how society should be run.

Don't be dumping the values religions teach, too. They have some very important morales that are good for everyone, I think.
I've read the Bible, and there really isn't a whole lot in there in the way of good morals. And the few good morals it does teach don't have adequate justification. It doesn't say to be good so that everybody may live a happier life; it says to be good because God said so and he's the boss of everything. I don't believe in moral systems based on totalitarian authority; ethics based on logic and reason and basic human sympathy for others is a much better idea. Especially if the ultimate authority says ridiculously amoral things like it's okay to sell your daughter into slavery or you should stone to death anybody who works on the Sabbath.

[Morag]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 04:11 AM
Jews Against Democracy


We, the Jewish people, have faced thousands of years as wanderers in the lands of others, persecuted and betrayed endlessly. Nowhere to call our home, nowhere to be safe, we have been at both the mercy and the kindness of our hosts. However, now that there is a state where Jews can now call their own, we believe that the current government of a democracy is NOT what is needed by the Jewish people.

The Jewish people have always thrived on authority. Our sole authority will forever be G-D, but in this earthly existence our leadership has, traditionally, been by respected and learned rabbis and priests of ages past. Authority is even ordained by G-D, is it not so that the Cohanim have a special purpose that the Israelites now have? If choice is made by the Israelites and not the learned Cohanim, then what good is our teachings? If we go even further and extend democracy to the goyim-- who vastly outnumber the Jews --then decisions will not be made for Jews in mind, but for the goyim in mind. Thus another holocaust will occur. A democratic, open-minded holocaust of a mass of smiling people.

We suggest that, to replace this, we Jews remain autonomic in our own state with and only the "best" of Jews nominated for leadership.

(Some of these ideas may work for the goyim nations, but just as we are not democratic, we do not make really care to make decisions for other people.)

Is it not what G-D wants? Is a synagogue not a democracy?

- Rabbi Russel Stone.

I'm new here and found this in my e-mail, and thought I'd share it with people who would know about democracy and Judaism more than I would. I'm a Jew, though not religious, and found this interesting. Can anyone tell me more? Thanks.
Did you get this from TrueTorahJews? Those people represent a very very good example of why so many communists think religion is non-sensical (other then the logical investigation of reality, which also shows the lie).

Anyway, those who said the post represents a theocracy are right. Leadership based not on the opinion of the people, for the benefit of the people, but leadership qualified by religious importance for the benefit of... well, that depends on whether you believe religion is actually good for people, doesn't it?

[Enragé]

Originally posted by infoterr+Aug 2 2006, 04:35 AM--> (infoterr @ Aug 2 2006, 04:35 AM)
[email protected] 2 2006, 04:31 AM
Respect religion? Hah! You do realize this is a communist message board, don't you? You'll find about as much respect for religion here as you will for capitalism. We shouldn't respect people's beliefs just because they believe them. We should respect people's beliefs only when they make sense.
Hey, now, man, I call myself a liberal but I don't go around bashing people's religions. I don't believe it is moral to insult anyone's beliefs. I happen to hold a lot of faith in people, although now I'm beginning to wonder that if democracy might not be all that it is cracked up to be. I don't know.... what could be better though?

Don't be dumping the values religions teach, too. They have some very important morales that are good for everyone, I think. [/b]
dude in comparison to orthodox judaism, islam is progressive :lol:

think about that :P

[theraven]

Originally posted by NewKindOfSoldier+Aug 2 2006, 05:03 AM--> (NewKindOfSoldier @ Aug 2 2006, 05:03 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 04:35 AM

[email protected] 2 2006, 04:31 AM
Respect religion? Hah! You do realize this is a communist message board, don't you? You'll find about as much respect for religion here as you will for capitalism. We shouldn't respect people's beliefs just because they believe them. We should respect people's beliefs only when they make sense.
Hey, now, man, I call myself a liberal but I don't go around bashing people's religions. I don't believe it is moral to insult anyone's beliefs. I happen to hold a lot of faith in people, although now I'm beginning to wonder that if democracy might not be all that it is cracked up to be. I don't know.... what could be better though?

Don't be dumping the values religions teach, too. They have some very important morales that are good for everyone, I think.
dude in comparison to orthodox judaism, islam is progressive :lol:

think about that :P [/b]
no its not, orthodx islam is far more harmful then orthodx judiams...

[Whitten]

Since when was Israel a Democracy?

[theraven]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 06:35 PM
Since when was Israel a Democracy?
well a parlimentery one but ya?

[Enragé]

Originally posted by theraven+Aug 2 2006, 05:45 PM--> (theraven @ Aug 2 2006, 05:45 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 04:35 AM

[email protected] 2 2006, 04:31 AM
Respect religion? Hah! You do realize this is a communist message board, don't you? You'll find about as much respect for religion here as you will for capitalism. We shouldn't respect people's beliefs just because they believe them. We should respect people's beliefs only when they make sense.
Hey, now, man, I call myself a liberal but I don't go around bashing people's religions. I don't believe it is moral to insult anyone's beliefs. I happen to hold a lot of faith in people, although now I'm beginning to wonder that if democracy might not be all that it is cracked up to be. I don't know.... what could be better though?

Don't be dumping the values religions teach, too. They have some very important morales that are good for everyone, I think.
dude in comparison to orthodox judaism, islam is progressive :lol:

think about that :P
no its not, orthodx islam is far more harmful then orthodx judiams... [/b]
harmful to whom?

If you mean to western interests, then yes.

If you mean for instance women's rights, then no.

Simply put, in judaism women have no rights, in islam they have some.

[theraven]

Originally posted by NewKindOfSoldier+Aug 2 2006, 08:58 PM--> (NewKindOfSoldier @ Aug 2 2006, 08:58 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 04:35 AM

[email protected] 2 2006, 04:31 AM
Respect religion? Hah! You do realize this is a communist message board, don't you? You'll find about as much respect for religion here as you will for capitalism. We shouldn't respect people's beliefs just because they believe them. We should respect people's beliefs only when they make sense.
Hey, now, man, I call myself a liberal but I don't go around bashing people's religions. I don't believe it is moral to insult anyone's beliefs. I happen to hold a lot of faith in people, although now I'm beginning to wonder that if democracy might not be all that it is cracked up to be. I don't know.... what could be better though?

Don't be dumping the values religions teach, too. They have some very important morales that are good for everyone, I think.
dude in comparison to orthodox judaism, islam is progressive :lol:

think about that :P
no its not, orthodx islam is far more harmful then orthodx judiams...
harmful to whom?

If you mean to western interests, then yes.

If you mean for instance women's rights, then no.

Simply put, in judaism women have no rights, in islam they have some. [/b]
where the hell do you get this? last time i checked even orthodox jews dont' stone women for adultey, nor do they require them to be covered from head to toe...i can go on but thats such an incredibly stupid statement i shouldn't have to bother.

[Enragé]

where the hell do you get this? last time i checked even orthodox jews dont' stone women for adultey, nor do they require them to be covered from head to toe...i can go on but thats such an incredibly stupid statement i shouldn't have to bother.

give me one place where orthodox jews rule?

also i was just talking about if you theoretically follow your scripture to the letter, the qu'ran is more progressive.

anyway, this is a non-issue. All religions suck.

[theraven]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 09:15 PM

where the hell do you get this? last time i checked even orthodox jews dont' stone women for adultey, nor do they require them to be covered from head to toe...i can go on but thats such an incredibly stupid statement i shouldn't have to bother.

give me one place where orthodox jews rule?

also i was just talking about if you theoretically follow your scripture to the letter, the qu'ran is more progressive.

anyway, this is a non-issue. All religions suck.
what letter though? the torah itself? I honestly don't think any sect o fjudaim is purely ont he torah. every sect uses the talmud,a nd further interpets it with thier own rabbi. some ebleive gay marirge is fine, others believe in only arranged mariges. it really deepnds on which sect your in

orthodx jews are rather poerufl in israel,esp. in the settlemnets.

[Enragé]

Originally posted by theraven+Aug 2 2006, 09:17 PM--> (theraven @ Aug 2 2006, 09:17 PM)
[email protected] 2 2006, 09:15 PM

where the hell do you get this? last time i checked even orthodox jews dont' stone women for adultey, nor do they require them to be covered from head to toe...i can go on but thats such an incredibly stupid statement i shouldn't have to bother.

give me one place where orthodox jews rule?

also i was just talking about if you theoretically follow your scripture to the letter, the qu'ran is more progressive.

anyway, this is a non-issue. All religions suck.
what letter though? the torah itself? I honestly don't think any sect o fjudaim is purely ont he torah. every sect uses the talmud,a nd further interpets it with thier own rabbi. some ebleive gay marirge is fine, others believe in only arranged mariges. it really deepnds on which sect your in

orthodx jews are rather poerufl in israel,esp. in the settlemnets. [/b]
sure, but that is no different in islam. do you know how many schools there are? How many different interpretations? Not to mention the shia-sunni divide. And there are muslims who are ok with homosexuality too, but they're not orthodox, and neither would those jews be.

Yes im sure they are quite powerful, but they cannot do whatever they want now can they (the evictions from the settlements for instance show this)

[RevSouth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 04:01 PM
where the hell do you get this? last time i checked even orthodox jews dont' stone women for adultey, nor do they require them to be covered from head to toe...i can go on but thats such an incredibly stupid statement i shouldn't have to bother.
Dumbfuck. According to ancient Orthodox Jewish rules, an adultress should be stoned. Have you ever read the Bible? There is a passage where Jesus keeps townspeople from stoning an adultress. Or a hooker. Something like that.