America Must Fall

[Ander]

I stopped on democracynow.org for a quick read on the news and immediately I was bombared with frightening headlines, articles, and quotes.

Israel’s Cabinet Agrees to Expand Ground Attack
Ehud Olmert: "The fighting continues. There is no ceasefire and there will not be any ceasefire in the coming days."

UN Human Rights Head Condemns Israeli Bombing of Qana

Bush Dismisses "Stopping [the Attacks] For the Sake of Stopping”
Meanwhile on Monday President Bush dismissed calls for what he described as "stopping for the sake of stopping.” He connected Israel’s fight against Hizbollah to the Sept. 11 attacks.

Report: U.S. Wants Israel to Attack Syria
The Jerusalem Post is reporting that Israeli military officials have told the paper that they have received indications from the United States that the Bush administration wants Israel to attack Syria. On Monday, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad ordered the country’s military to raise its readiness. Israel has been repeatedly bombing sites in Lebanon along the Syrian border.

Cuba’s Fidel Castro Has Surgery, Temporarily Hands Over Power

U.S. Aims to Install Pro-American Leader in Cuba

I am more worried than I have been in a while. What if Cuba becomes just another of America's conquests? How far will this intrusion into the Middle East go? Why is no one doing anything? The UN talks a lot but there isn't much they really do!

It seems like now, more than ever, we need some one to fight back against the US. They have been getting away with the same crap for decades, and now it is reaching a boiling point. Could America be more hated? Something has to be done, but I just don't know what...is there even the power? What about nationwide strikes, boycotts, rebellions? We need a hero to destroy the evil superpower.

Is America ever going to collapse?

(I know all of this is just a bunch of ideas and statements joined together, I just was gripped by the need to express myself and so I did.)

[Janus]

Is America ever going to collapse?
Not in the forseeable future.

The best thing we can do now is agitate and create awareness of the US's disgusting policies.

[Whitten]

What if Cuba becomes just another of America's conquests?

It wont. It doesnt matter if we need to assasinate a third president, we wont let America get away with something like that.

[Janus]

What if Cuba becomes just another of America's conquests?
Well, Bush has already planned for 80 million in aid to "change" the nation.


How far will this intrusion into the Middle East go?
For oil, nations will go to the ends of the Earth.


Why is no one doing anything?
People are doing things whether rallying against the US's policies or openly resisting it. However, the Bush administration does not care.

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 12:43 PM
Is America ever going to collapse?

I'd put the US's collapse at... 2065-2075. Unless the ITER project is a success and terrestrial hot fusion becomes a reality. But that is unlikely to work out in the timeframe.

So raise the next generation well, and they'll be leading the third US revolution.

[Delta]

What about nationwide strikes, boycotts, rebellions?

Direct action is definitely the way to go. The US really lacks any sort of labor movement (there's anti-union propaganda everywhere) and so large strikes would be impossible to do at this time. If other countries striked in order to make their governments condemn the US then that might make a difference, or people from all countries could work together to boycott industries that had extensive ties to the US government.

[Tekun]

Yeah, things are pretty bad right now

But like Janus said, one of the few productive things that we can take part in is to inform and raise class conciousness among the ppl
If we are successful, this consciousness will pave the way toward an eventual revolution and capitalism's demise
Throughout the world, there are billions who have suffered from capitalism's mere existence
If we are able to give them an alternate, a better, and more humane political positions (communism) I have no doubt that they would be willing to fight for it

There are billions of our proletarian brothers and sisters that are waiting to break from their chains and overrun their masters
If we can inform and arm our brothers and sisters with the weapons with which to destroy the apparatus that has oppressed them for so long, we are on our way to changing this miserable world

We gotta do as much as possible to inform and raise class consciousness
Our existence depends upon it

If we started shooting and rebeling without the ppl's support, we'd be easily taken care of
So we need the masses of oppressed ppl, only then will our revolution succeed
A revolution is not made up of a few hardline individuals, it is made up of the masses of oppressed and courageous ppl

[Ol' Dirty]

I'm glad someone listen's to Democracy Now! besides me. It warms the heart. :blush: Really, it does.

Anyway, I would have to agree that America is a pretty fucked up nation at the moment. Of course, it has never really been much different. Read A People's History of the United States, as I currently am, And you'll see all sorts of example.

The de facto government in America (which is most certainly not serving the people of the Republic) is rather Conservative.

Most people still support Israel and its millitary action in Lebenon (in blind accordance with much aamerican media). In fact, one who says that they don't support Israel (let alone be against it), will most likely be called anti-semite. Personally, I think that the Israel is simply creating a new holocaust against all of Arabic and, in an even wider sense, against all Muslims. Am I an anti-semite. On the contrary, I am completely about Jews, or anybody of anny ethnic group less I meet them in person. Do I love Jews? Yes, sometimes (in fact, one of my best adult freinds is Jewish, and a girl I have a minor crush on is half-Jewish). Do I hate the state of Israel? Hell fucking yes. I am against anyform of government that claims to be made of a superior religion, ethnicity and culture.

As for the Iraq war, I can't stand it. I'm against any war (whoa, flashback,) that pits the worlds only superpower and a third-world country. In fact, I am against any war (except for class war). The only chemical weapons found in Iraq (let's not even go to the nuclear aspect,) are duds that were intended for use against Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. also, there were no Islamist Guerrila's (I dont call them terrorists, for obvious reasons,) in Iraq before the war; now it is a hotbed of Islamist activity. The human rights and international war crimes taking place there are less horendous to few.

[red team]

Unless the ITER project is a success and terrestrial hot fusion becomes a reality. But that is unlikely to work out in the timeframe.

I hope you're just objecting to fusion power being commodified and not in the technology itself as this should be seen as a step up toward an energy and therefore material abundant future. :mellow:

[Delta]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 03:20 PM
I'm glad someone listen's to Democracy Now! besides me. It warms the heart. :blush: Really, it does.



I watch it occasionally also :D


Anyway, I would have to agree that America is a pretty fucked up nation at the moment. Of course, it has never really been much different. Read A People's History of the United States, as I currently am, And you'll see all sorts of example.

Agreed, Zinn's book is very good. One of my all-time favorites.

[Janus]

I don't see what energy developments have to do with a nation's collapse. Rather it may actually help it.

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by red [email protected] 1 2006, 05:30 PM

Unless the ITER project is a success and terrestrial hot fusion becomes a reality. But that is unlikely to work out in the timeframe.

I hope you're just objecting to fusion power being commodified and not in the technology itself as this should be seen as a step up toward an energy and therefore material abundant future. :mellow:
I'm saying that the collapse of western civilization is likely to be brought about by the collapse of the fossil fuel age. Without an abundant high power energy source (which hot fusion is the only possible replacement), Western civilization will collapse, presenting a serious opportunity for revolution and rebuilding a balanced society.

Hot fusion is the ultimate energy source, and it's day will come. However, it won't come soon enough to prop up the energy mad over-consuming western capitalist civilization. And that's a good thing.

The masses will acquiesce so long as they have air conditioning and television, and food being trucked in from another continent (bread and circuses). When the fuel runs short, when the lights go out, they might get up off the couch.

Capitalist economy enslaves and controls. The economy is dependent on energy. If that fails, systems of power fail, control fails, order fails.



Sucks I'll be long dead before it happens.

[Janus]

I'm saying that the collapse of western civilization is likely to be brought about by the collapse of the fossil fuel age. Without an abundant high power energy source (which hot fusion is the only possible replacement), Western civilization will collapse
Capitalism has proved very adept at change, I don't see why they can not adapt themselves to new energy sources. Yes, not much is done right now but I don't think that we should rely on dwindling energy sources to stop capitalism since history has shown that it is not the case.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by Delta+Aug 1 2006, 05:33 PM--> (Delta @ Aug 1 2006, 05:33 PM)
[email protected] 1 2006, 03:20 PM
I'm glad someone listen's to Democracy Now! besides me. It warms the heart. :blush: Really, it does.



I watch it occasionally also :D


Anyway, I would have to agree that America is a pretty fucked up nation at the moment. Of course, it has never really been much different. Read A People's History of the United States, as I currently am, And you'll see all sorts of example.

Agreed, Zinn's book is very good. One of my all-time favorites. [/b]
Excellent show. :) Amy Goodman is very good.

I'm just starting to read it (A people's history), but so far it is very good.

[red team]

Yes, but don't underestimate an energy crisis from political turmoil in energy rich regions of the world precipitating an economic collapse among other factors such as high consumer debt and an aging population in developed western countries.

The system actually did collapse once as witness in the great depression. A severe collapse happened to the German deutchemark and a "less" severe collapse in all of the rest of the Capitalist world. It took a world war to pull that disaster out of the fire.

[Ol' Dirty]

Eventually it will take a gallon of oil to get a gallo of oil, making petrol an inneficient power source. Nuclear power, biomass, aquatic and wind are going to start looking really nice once that happens.

[Delta]

I'm just starting to read it (A people's history), but so far it is very good

I think it really starts to get good when they talk about the labor movement :D

[Year: 1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 05:43 PM
I stopped on democracynow.org for a quick read on the news and immediately I was bombared with frightening headlines, articles, and quotes.

Israel’s Cabinet Agrees to Expand Ground Attack
Ehud Olmert: "The fighting continues. There is no ceasefire and there will not be any ceasefire in the coming days."

UN Human Rights Head Condemns Israeli Bombing of Qana

Bush Dismisses "Stopping [the Attacks] For the Sake of Stopping”
Meanwhile on Monday President Bush dismissed calls for what he described as "stopping for the sake of stopping.” He connected Israel’s fight against Hizbollah to the Sept. 11 attacks.

Report: U.S. Wants Israel to Attack Syria
The Jerusalem Post is reporting that Israeli military officials have told the paper that they have received indications from the United States that the Bush administration wants Israel to attack Syria. On Monday, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad ordered the country’s military to raise its readiness. Israel has been repeatedly bombing sites in Lebanon along the Syrian border.

Cuba’s Fidel Castro Has Surgery, Temporarily Hands Over Power

U.S. Aims to Install Pro-American Leader in Cuba

I am more worried than I have been in a while. What if Cuba becomes just another of America's conquests? How far will this intrusion into the Middle East go? Why is no one doing anything? The UN talks a lot but there isn't much they really do!

It seems like now, more than ever, we need some one to fight back against the US. They have been getting away with the same crap for decades, and now it is reaching a boiling point. Could America be more hated? Something has to be done, but I just don't know what...is there even the power? What about nationwide strikes, boycotts, rebellions? We need a hero to destroy the evil superpower.

Is America ever going to collapse?

(I know all of this is just a bunch of ideas and statements joined together, I just was gripped by the need to express myself and so I did.)
Sounds like W.W. III is just around the corner. What the hell does Bush think?--- that Jesus Christ is going to return and usher the faithful into the Golden Age? That Bush is using Israel to wage war on "terrorism" is clear. He's using Israel like a surrogate mercenary army to deal with the "Axis of Evil."

You guys need to go out and get guns, not to go shooting cops but to keep them on the stand by----just in case. I mean if they use nuclear weapons guns won't matter since we will all be dead. But if we can use them when the revolution comes, what then? It would be fucked up if the revolution comes and we find ourselves unarmed.

[peaccenicked]

Is America falling? What does that mean?http://www.feasta.org/documents/review2/nunan.htm or does it start with this http://www.socialistalternative.org/news/a...le13.php?id=153 (http://www.socialistalternative.org/news/article13.php?id=153) or http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041111195501242 or http://www.cpnm.org/ or http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060722/castro_chavez_060722/20060722?hub=TopStories) or http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060710fa_fact and the icing on the cakehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4124164.stm


I am sorry about so many links, but ask a stupid question.

[A Suvorov]

The 'Fall of America' may not happen in our generation, as a previous poster noted; it may come in the next or the next after that. At the same time, though, we must prepare for anything. If anything, life in the US will get harder in the next few years as our government reaps the whirlwind of its insane foreign policies and exposes Ozzy and Harriet to the whims of anybody with a grudge and a few dollars who wants to take us down a few notches. Like as not, though, it will be our own armed forces arrayed against us unless we have the wits to either change or totally replace our governing system and the running dogs of capitalism.

Note the recent shooting in Seattle by the man who was 'mad at Jews'- did anyone catch the backstory to this? They say he was Muslim- and indeed he shouted that he was during the shooting (they say)- but did anyone see the part about him CONVERTING TO CHRISTIANITY over a year ago? You didn't hear THAT on the local evening news, I'd be willing to wager. Why? Because it would show that it's not only Muslims who are angry about events in the Middle East, but Christians, too- the very same Christians who Bush and Co. 'reached out to' in order to get (fraudulently) elected.

What's the connection? The spin put on ANYTHING even remotely having to do with the Middle East is incredible, and eventually it will get to a point where we will have spun ourselves into a corner where our only option WILL be to go to war. When that day arrives, it's pretty much Game Over because open season will have been declared on the US public and, given the state of our civil defense, I'd say instead of 'We're all Israelis' we'll be saying 'We're all Lebanese' when it's OUR houses and schools being taken down one by one.

And for WHAT? Some mystical vision of the End Times? Or is it just some worldy power-grab by a cabal of opportunists? Or both?

The Fall of America is indeed coming, but in opposition to the old slogan, this time the revolution WILL be televised...and we'll all be watching our own destruction on Fox News every night until it's our turn in the gunsights. Arm ourselves, indeed- and arm ourselves well, because I for one am not going without a fight.

In every city a Stalingrad, in every block a fortress, in every house a bunker, and in every room a hero...

[peaccenicked]

It easier to point to all the reactionary shit that is going on in this world than it is to be realistic about the great ''unwashed'' or ''unmoved''. If we look at all the crimes in the world and our powerlessness against them, if we look and feel the depression of all of our victimised wage slave cowards. It is easy to give up.

Socialists move themselves, though steeped in the woes and turbulent screams and sometimes joys of the oppressed. The commodity fetish, the whore , the gambler, the journalist.

Socialists, emulate high standards in every aspect of life as revealed by those caught up in struggle at the sharpest edge.

A poor grandmother buying the simplest of clothes for her grandson can show more guts about life than a voidless dreamer that does no good for anyone.

I am not saying you are doing no good! A Suvorov, I think you are looking back to times that were not so good, look at life expectancy, look at how easy it is for us computerized folk to live in a bourgeois ghetto! As if thats a good thing.


The good thing is that capitalism cant keep on reproducing the basic luxuries of western life without illegal immigration, without the systematic stupification of the voting populace.


People learn.


and sometimes they learn quickly.

[Streetz]

Could America be more hated?

Yes it could and guess what they will be.

Is America ever going to collapse?

Lets take one page outta history on this one. The greatest empire to ever exist was the roman empire they collapsed.
Now lets implicate past wars in ww1 and ww2 america came in towards the end after so many have already died wiping out the tired soldiers with fresh troops and while they where waiting they where collecting big sums of money off of military weapons food and other exports to further strengthen the economy and power of the dollar. WW2 resurged the economy helping rebound off the great depression.
thats a quick summary but the thing to notice is america never won a war it started. They even lost the civil war which your probably wondering is how? the south was the foundation of america making the north the revolution. well quickly to the point if things escalate further in the middle east america will lose and will be chocked out from all angles which is ironically the same way germany was overrunned.

Something has to be done, but I just don't know what...is there even the power?


Theres the power you think a nation would spend 100's of billions of year to further strengthen there military and not do nothing.


i wrote this quick so dont mind the grammer.

[peaccenicked]

It is true! Something has to be done.

Streetz.


But make life simple!

It all depends on the size of the corner that we all each individually live in.



If all we can do is kiss a loved one. Kiss a loved one

If all we can do is pass out a leaflet. Pass out a leaflet

If all we can do is bring our comrades out on strike. Get them all out

If all we can do is impeach the war criminals we have in government.

Shoot the bastards


(sorry slight joke there)

However.

Notice, you are not alone

[emma_goldman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 11:22 PM
Eventually it will take a gallon of oil to get a gallo of oil, making petrol an inneficient power source. Nuclear power, biomass, aquatic and wind are going to start looking really nice once that happens.
Peak oil.

I think it's right around the horizon. Which will most likely lead to an economic catastrophe. Probably a depression.

The ASPO, or Association for the Study of Peak Oil and Gas, predicts the worlds peak oil production will be in 2010. The peak for natural gas is predicted somewhere around 2010 - 2020.

ASPO (http://www.peakoil.net/)

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 06:22 PM
Eventually it will take a gallon of oil to get a gallo of oil, making petrol an inneficient power source. Nuclear power, biomass, aquatic and wind are going to start looking really nice once that happens.
With the exception of nuclear energy, those are all low-power energy sources. Great for sustaining simple society, but not powerful enough to support a global industrial economy. Wind and solar can power your home and car, but not a factory, airplane, train, or fleet of cargo trucks. Similarly, our level of petrol consumption is such that to switch a biomass alternative would require the cultivation of an area of land roughly the size of... North America.

Nuclear power is the only other high-power energy source (except major hydroelectric, which isn't viable because we don't all have a major river in our backyard). Problem is, if we switched from fossil fuels to nuclear (which currently only produces a tiny fraction of our energy), we would use up all the world's uranium in one to two decades (assuming we could mine and refine it fast enough).

The only possible sustainable high-power energy source is going to be hot fusion. The ITER project is scheduled to have a industrial reactor functional by 2060. Fossil fuel crisis should hit about 2040-2045. Energy dependent society will begin to slowly stumble and crumble, thus delaying ITER, which requires a stable hi-tech society to support its construction. I don't expect hot fusion to become a realistic option until roughly 2100.

This should produce a nice window of about 25-50 years of instability. Ideal for change.

[Sadena Meti]

Originally posted by Year: [email protected] 1 2006, 07:31 PM
You guys need to go out and get guns, not to go shooting cops but to keep them on the stand by----just in case. I mean if they use nuclear weapons guns won't matter since we will all be dead. But if we can use them when the revolution comes, what then? It would be fucked up if the revolution comes and we find ourselves unarmed.
Two points to make -

1. Nuclear war is unlikely as most people envision it, as strategic nuclear weapons have been eliminated. Tactical nukes may be used, but they are just weapons like any other. Not even city killers. No fallout, no long term radiation (most people's image of nukes is based on outdated info and sci-fi).

2. I absolutely concur that self proclaimed revolutionaries should get a gun and, more, importantly, practice with them. If you've got the cash, go for the Steyr Manlicher Scout. Or as a cheaper option, get a civilian AK (recommend Romanian WASR). Mint they're $400. At a minimum, practice until you can put 10 of 10 into a 2" at 100 yards (or 50 yards with the AK).



* note - these comments are made in the context of the USA, where it is easier to get firearms than cigarettes *