People Imprisoned For Collecting Signatures?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

"To date, more than 25,000 people have signed the petition despite a government crackdown on people who organized and participated in the effort. Nearly 50 people remain in Cuban jails for collecting signatures. This crackdown came despite a provision in the current Cuban constitution providing that citizens may introduce legislation in the National Assembly by collecting 10,000 signatures," they added.

http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/news/index_view.php?id=200608

True or not true?

[KC]

Who cares. They deserve to rot in jail.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

If you don't care, don't answer.


Is it true or not true?

[Whitten]

They were traitors, openly admitting such, and ere carrying the paperwork to prove it. They're lucky they werent shot.

[Forward Union]

What the source? There is a statement written by Cuban Libertarian-Communists about how bad the situation is there, well it's a reply to something else, but still,

Cuban Anarchists speak out (http://libcom.org/news/article.php?story=05/04/27/7152643)

Very interesting.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

hey were traitors, openly admitting such

Could you elaborate?

Were they arrested for collecting signatures or not?

[Whitten]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 02:21 PM

hey were traitors, openly admitting such

Could you elaborate?

Were they arrested for collecting signatures or not?
I believe so

[Karl Marx's Camel]

When a state arrest someone for collecting signatures, how democratic is that society, Whitten?

[Jamal]

that is totaly wrong, if that is true something must be done about it. People have the freedom to think even though their thoughts may not be like yours. That is total injustice!

[chebol]

They were not arrested for collecting signatures - which is a right in the constitution. They were arrested for being in the pay of the US while doing it. A slight, BUT IMPORTANT, difference, usually glossed over by those who are determined to slander Cuba.

[metalero]

Washington's Cuban "Dissidents" (http://www.cubasolidarity.com/aboutcuba/lies/dictatorship/0502Zdissidents.htm)

"...Becoming involved in the world of "dissidence" cannot be explained simply by a clear lack of patriotism. The economic advantages of this profession are significant and stoke the greed of un-conscientious individuals. The 75 people who were convicted did not have any paid work and lived from the financial inducements of the US authorities in return for the duties they had carried out. The salaries, which were considerable for the standard of life in Cuba, led certain people to amass small personal fortunes of up to 16 000 dollars in cash, while the average salary is between 15 and 20 dollars per month. (10) They thus had a far superior lifestyle to most Cubans and benefited at the same time from the incomparable privileges of the Cuban social system.

To appreciate the size of this sum of money, we have to remind ourselves of the value of the dollar in Cuba. For the equivalent of one dollar, a Cuban can choose to buy himself: 104 litres of milk, 45 kilos of rice, 26 tickets for baseball matches, between five and 26 tickets for the theatre or cinema, 5200 kilowatts of electricity or videos of five televised English courses of 160 hours each. All other basic foodstuffs (bread, beans, oil) are in the same price range. Added to that are the free education, health and leisure services. Given that 85% of Cuban citizens are owners of their property, they pay no rent. Furthermore, taxation does not exist in Cuba. And another unique point: medicines bought at chemists' shops cost 50% less than fifty years ago. (11) All this is possible thanks to the annual subsidies given by the Cuban state, so vilified by the "dissidents" who do not, however, miss out on the benefits of the advantageous conditions which Cuban society offers.

It should be emphasised that Rivero has benefited from an international media coverage solely because he was the only person of the 75 imprisoned who had genuinely worked as a journalist. His case is interesting inasmuch as it casts light on the breadth of the disinformation campaign launched against Cuba. In an interview with "Reporters Without Borders", Rivero's wife Blanca Reyes confirmed that he had been held in "inhuman and unacceptable conditions of detention". She also added that he had lost 40 lbs (19.5 kilos). He "was hungry. I want people to know that Raul Rivero suffered from hunger," she complained with melodramatic fervour. (13) This information was received with great solemnity by the entire international press.

However, on his release from prison, Rivero appeared in excellent health, with a noticeable stoutness, as the Cuban authorities have continued to point out. (14) While Washington and its lackeys were denouncing, with remarkable media resonance, the "dreadful living conditions" of the prisoners, Rivero himself admitted that he had had unrestricted access to literature and had avidly read the latest novel by the Colombian writer Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Historias de Mis Putas Tristes, a work still difficult to find in French bookshops. (15) Obviously Rivero had not been living in a four-star hotel, but neither was he in a "tropical gulag", as some people like to describe Cuban prisons, as if the penitentiaries elsewhere in the world were holiday resorts. (16) Are the prisons in Abu Ghraib in Iraq, where the torture of prisoners of war was institutionalised by Washington, more comfortable? And what should we say about the jails of Guantanamo, a zone where law does not exist and where the hell unleashed on the detainees has led to numerous attempted suicides by very pious individuals for whom death by one's own hand is a cardinal sin. (17) What should we think about the criminal silence and complicity of the international community and press on this matter? In any case, very few inmates can boast that they have had access to García Márquez's latest novel even before some specialist European bookshops.

...On the other hand, this same press raised a hue and cry when the Cuban authorities arrested several dozen collaborators of the USA –a hostile foreign power responsible for hundreds of attacks on Cuba– in March 2003. They were controlled, advised and paid by Washington and carried out activities which seriously affected the national integrity of their country. Here again, the variable geometry of indignation can be shown, because the threat which Iraq represents for France –if it is possible of talking about a threat without arousing horse laughs– cannot be measured against the serious danger which the Bush clan represents to the Cuban people. But the doctrine of double standards has become the norm, for there are truths which are hard to swallow. The same criteria do not apply to everybody. Raising basic and essential questions about the survival of the Cuban revolution is thus considered inadmissible and even irrational."

[chimx]

so cuba imprisons people that have the financial support of a capitalist country for starting legislation?

i guess i don't understand where the fear comes from. if they were proposing something like, "castro is a douche and we want capitalism" or whatever, one would think that it would ultimately be crushed in a democratic environment if the government actually did have the support of the people. is the cuban state worried about its constituency? if so, why?

[Intelligitimate]

Ok, let's get something straight really fucking quick. In America, if the US government sees you as an agent of a foreign power and you do not register as such, you are immediately thrown in jail. Got that?

The Patriot Act of 2001 reads, "Requiring the additional showing that the intelligence gathering violates the laws of the United States is both unnecessary and counterproductive, as such activities threaten the national security regardless of whether they are illegal. This provision would expand the definitions contained in 50 U.S.C. § 1801(b)(2)(A) & (B). Any person who engages in clandestine intelligence gathering activities for a foreign power would qualify as an "agent of a foreign power," regardless of whether those activities are federal crimes."

So here we have the US government openly saying if you even are doing legal intelligence gathering activities in this country as an agent of a foreign power (which they get to decide), you are in violation of the law. What the fuck do you think they would do to you if you were being funded by a foreign power with the stated purpose of overthrowing the US government?

So, as you can see, US law is much, much more strict in this regard. Cuba is doing absolutely nothing the US wouldn't do. In fact, given the fact that the US government is responsible for hundreds of terrorist attacks on Cuba, causing the deaths of thousands of its citizens, it is a wonder the government is so damn restrained. By all rights, these people should be fucking shot on the spot. Yet Cuba handles them with kid gloves.

You should be in awe of the kind treatement these people are getting.

[metalero]

"starting legislation" is not what reactionaries want, and something that revolutionaries don't fall out for, especially if they're dealing with people sponsored by a brutal empire who want to destroy the socialist gains and any possibilities for building comunism, and extremist zealots in Miami who want to have back socialized property and exploit the general population. People who receive support from imperialists to carry out reactionary reforms should be faced inmmediately. In fact the Cuban laws allow dissenting people to organize, as long as they don't receive funding from imperialist.
"Payá and Sánchez have never had any problems with the law, although their political writings are much more virulent than Rivero's. The explanation is simple enough: Payá and Sánchez have up until now always refused the generous financial support offered by Washington, while Rivero made the error of profiting from the financial largesse of the Bush administration. And this is what has been punished, not a supposedly heterodox literary and political output. These concrete facts clearly show that the argument accusing the Cuban authorities of imprisoning people for their ideas has well nigh zero credibility."
http://www.cubasolidarity.com/aboutcuba/li...Zdissidents.htm (http://www.cubasolidarity.com/aboutcuba/lies/dictatorship/0502Zdissidents.htm)

[Karl Marx's Camel]

They were not arrested for collecting signatures - which is a right in the constitution. They were arrested for being in the pay of the US while doing it. A slight, BUT IMPORTANT, difference, usually glossed over by those who are determined to slander Cuba.

Okay. If that is the case it change the whole thing about this incident.

Have the Cuban state provided any evidence for this?

Or have these people we are talking about admitting that themselves?

[Conghaileach]

A friend of mine was in Cuba two years ago and he said that he saw people on a few street corners in Havana collecting signatures for that Valera project.

It's quite possible that all the people who have been arrested were in the pay of the US government.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

It's quite possible that all the people who have been arrested were in the pay of the US government.


Yes. However, where is the proof/evidence?

[Intelligitimate]

The links in this thread address the issue. They weren't working, and were living much better life-styles than someone with a legitimate job would. One of them apparently had as much as $16,000 on him, when the average cuban makes only a tiny fraction of that in a month.

Really, that should be no surprise. Are you aware of how many innocent people the US government has killed through terrorism against Cuba?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

The links in this thread address the issue.

You mean http://www.cubasolidarity.com?


They weren't working, and were living much better life-styles than someone with a legitimate job would. One of them apparently had as much as $16,000 on him, when the average cuban makes only a tiny fraction of that in a month.

That's all "well and good", but do we have any evidence for this?




Really, that should be no surprise. Are you aware of how many innocent people the US government has killed through terrorism against Cuba?

Yes, I am well aware.

However, that is off topic.

[Tetsuo]

To say that it is wrong to off bourgeois reactionaries who seek to reverse the gains of the Cuban working class is liberal bollocks.

The problem with Cuba is that it replicates capitalist labour relations, while lacking the limited advantages of a modern bourgeois democracy, not some abstract notion of "freedom" for reactionary movements.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

To appreciate the size of this sum of money, we have to remind ourselves of the value of the dollar in Cuba. For the equivalent of one dollar, a Cuban can choose to buy himself: 104 litres of milk, 45 kilos of rice, 26 tickets for baseball matches, between five and 26 tickets for the theatre or cinema, 5200 kilowatts of electricity or videos of five televised English courses of 160 hours each.

1004 liters of milk for one dollar... Rather one hundred gram milk powder.

45 kilo rice? Rather 1,45 kilo.

25 theater tickets? Rather 2.

[TC]

No, its not true.


They were collecting signatures and they were jailed, but they weren't jailed for collecting signatures:

They were jailed for taking money from the US interest section in havana, which is to say, acting as employees of a foriegn, hostile government, a crime everywhere.

These people are from Oswaldo Paya's anti-communist Christian Liberation Movement party.

Oswaldo Paya himself is not in jail and in fact continues to push his pro-imperialist legislation, because he does not personally recieve money from the American government so he has committed no crime: Cuba is a democracy that respects free speech and pluralistic political participation, even among crazy christians.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 11:12 PM
That's all "well and good", but do we have any evidence for this?
What do you want? I do not think that anyone on RevLeft was present at the trials of these persons. The fact of the matter is that large sums of money(by Cuban standards) were found in their homes. Money as in: dollars. Sadly, nobody from this forum has witnessed the trials, so you'll just have to take the government's word for it. But oh, I forgot, the Cuban government should always be mistrusted. Everyone knows that the yankees and the gusano scum are much more trustworthy!

TragicClown: speaking of Paya, here are some interesting pictures of him being repressed by the Cuban government:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a151/eyeflash/things/paya.jpg

What do you know? The eeeeebil Cuban communists allowed him to travel to Europe to collect his award! Evidently, the money didn't go into his project. Because, hey, vacations in Varadero are VERY important to bringing democracy to Cuba!

[Karl Marx's Camel]

They were jailed for taking money from the US interest section in havana, which is to say, acting as employees of a foriegn, hostile government, a crime everywhere.


Perhaps that is the charge they were being arrested on. But where is the proof that they received money from the U.S.?


What do you want? I do not think that anyone on RevLeft was present at the trials of these persons.

Transcripts of them in court would help a great deal.



The fact of the matter is that large sums of money(by Cuban standards) were found in their homes.

Where are the evidence of this? Do we have a video? Say, a video of special forces/police going into the homes of these, they find the cash, and then while they move around the house we will see the family pictures of these people; all this shown in the video. For instance. That would be good enough documentation.



But oh, I forgot, the Cuban government should always be mistrusted. Everyone knows that the yankees and the gusano scum are much more trustworthy!

Have you ever thought that maybe you should rather use 90 percent of the time to investigate and to have a critical outlook and 10 percent being cheerleader, rather than otherwise?

Marxists aren't cheerleaders. Marxists, along with any other reasonable people, should and must have a critical outlook.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 10:22 PM
Marxists aren't cheerleaders. Marxists, along with any other reasonable people, should and must have a critical outlook.
Agreed. Now ponder on that the next time you consider linking to and voicing unfounded internet rumours about Cuba or Castro. It really seems at times as if you'll believe anything about Cuba... so long as it plays to the bourgeois image of a hellhole yearning for capitalism.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Maybe you could provide some transcripts and some evidence/documentation?

[Gojo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 02:09 PM

They were not arrested for collecting signatures - which is a right in the constitution. They were arrested for being in the pay of the US while doing it. A slight, BUT IMPORTANT, difference, usually glossed over by those who are determined to slander Cuba.

Okay. If that is the case it change the whole thing about this incident.

Have the Cuban state provided any evidence for this?

Or have these people we are talking about admitting that themselves?
Who are you to worry about that?! If cuban communist party has managed to stay in power for 50 years WITH the support of its people I think we(YOU) should stop questioning EVERY SINGLE act made by cuban goverment just because Miami herald and other simmilar worthless crap TRIES to make it controversial.

And you clearly have a lot issues on what the difference between communism and capitalist "democracy" is...I suggest clearing those things out

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Have the Cuban state provided any evidence for this? YES OR NO?

Or have these people we are talking about admitting that themselves? YES OR NO?

[MiniOswald]

I think far too many people in this thread and other similar threads in which NWOG has posted his fews have a with us or against us attitude. Its getting tired that just because NWOG is highly critical of the cuban government you all assume that he must have no objections to the american government and believes everything people in Miami says. Some of you need to stop following the cuban government so blindly.

[chebol]

And perhaps some of those 'criticisng' Cuba could actually think before placing ridiculous demands on people here.

While I agree that the tone and content of some of the responses in defence of Cuba has been less than perfect, it arises at least partially from the constant battle against bourgeois lies about the reality of Cuba. To then have those lies regurgutated, verbatim, by supposed leftists, in an uncritical manner can be highly frustrating. Worse, some people are actually adherents of particular theories that decry Cuba as a capitalist dictatorship, attempting to not only criticise Cuba from the left - but condemn it.

That said, I want to respond to the demands for "proof". Tell me, do you agree with Marx's analysis of class society, which he developed from the study of history, and his contemporary society? Do you require "proof" from him also? I think not, as it is rather difficult. He suffers from a slight case of death.

However, the events he discussed and experienced are written about by a number of other writers - some historians, some political scientists, etc, many of whom have either a conscious or unconscious agenda in explaining history according to bourgeois society's benchmarks and measures, and present matters in a very different light. Who to believe?

Now, on a more concrete matter. These trials of which you speak were a matter of national security for Cuba. They involved not only the dozens of accused traitors, but also the evidence collected by Cuba's intelligent agencies, their agents and networks across Cuba and in the US. The trials amost certainly involved material of a sensitive nature that may endanger human life and the revolution if it fell into the wrong hands.

Now, how much proof do you want? Do you want the Cubans to turn their files inside out to satisfy your self-righteous misguided sense of justice in 'proving' for yourself the malevolent or benevolent nature of the revolution? Must they try the 75 again? Send them, perhaps, to the International Court of Justice, where they can be spirited away to a life of luxury with their paymasters in the US?

The problem with demanding proof is that you have no right to demand it, for to do so is tantamount to demanding the revolution 'prove' itself to you before it is 'worthy' of your support. The higher you set the benchmark, the more fulfiling the requirements of those demands endangers the revolution, and the less need the cuban revolution has of your support.

The Cuban people are the arbiter of the cuban revolution. Criticise by all means. Support too, if you can bring yourself to see reality. But don't demand that the Cuban Revolution act like a circus animal because you can't bring yourself to take sides!