"No" For Now - Brown Stalling Again....

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

So we are still very much in the dark about the Euro.

Today, Gordan Brown announced that, due to the failing of the economic tests, Britain will not have a referendum on the Euro yet.

His assessment: "We will assess it again after the Budget next year". Genius.

His plan is to wait until the next Budget, see what the results are and, if positive, the economic tests will be carried out again. If they are all passed then, the referendum will be put to us. So we've got at least another year with the pound.

The Commons is clearly divided and somewhat confused. During the debate, I noticed a member from the SNP saying how Mr. Brown's hesitating on joining was a bad thing. And I was under the impression that Scotland wanted it's own pound!! The Tories, still "NO NO NO", are now very much isolated in the House.

The inevitability of joining the Euro is clear from Mr. Brown's words. He didn't say "No", just instead dressed the "No" up and turned it into a "nearly yes".

What do people think of this further hesitation?

We failed the tests, so it's sensible to stall again. But how long must we wait for a decision?

It appears to me as though joining would be right. The Euro is growing stronger and stronger on the Dollar and jobs, trade and unity throughout Europe are on the rise. If we were to take the Tory route, some 2 million jobs will be under threat throughout Britain, but I don't anyone here wants to go that route anyway.

Any thoughts on today's events?

[Anonymous]

Im not sure if Tony wants to risk a popularity contest following the Iraqi war.

Perhaps hes stalling for a clearer period preceeding the big descision.

[El Che]

I think the Tories have a point when they say there is no economic case for joining the euro. Thats exactly Gordan Brown`s problem because he has to make that case. Labour wont be able to sell the Euro as political move, so there you have it.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Of course there is an economic case!

The economic case is that Britain joining the Euro would potentially increase the prosperity of all of Europe's antions and it's people. Britain's economy makes up 20% of all of Europe's economy.

There is only no economic case, or rather potentially no economic case, if we are thinking about Britain and Britain alone and disregarding the impact on the whole of Europe. By potentially, I mean that it could POSSIBLY do a little damage to Britain's economy whilst boosting Europe as a whole, however the liklehood is that Britain's economy would be stable and possibly improve with the Euro, again, whilst boosting Europe as a whole.

Therefore, the economic case, the existence of which you deny, is that joining the Euro will massively help the whole of the European economy and, probably, boost Britain's own economy at the same time.

What it comes down to is; do you want:

a)prosperity for more people in more countries whilst running the small risk of Britains economy slightly worsening

or

B) prosperity for Britain alone i.e. don't care about the rest of Europe as a whole.

(Edited by Socialsmo o Muerte at 7:44 pm on June 9, 2003)

[El Che]

Well, I think the great majority of Brits are more concerned with Britain`s national interest and that is what I was refering to when I said that I think there is no economic case.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

So you are more concerned about the 60 million or so Britons than you are about the millions upon millions upon millions of Europeans?

You would rather around 60 million benefit while the millions and millions of others in Europe live in mediocre conditions, with mediocre prosperity.

Very Nationalistic.

[El Che]

Socialismo o Muerte where do you get that idea from? I never said whether or not I think Britain should join the Euro. I said I think the Tories are on to something when they say there is no economic case, where Britain`s national interest is concerned, for joining the Euro. That don`t mean I don`t think the Brits should join the Euro now does it?

PS: I aint British.

(Edited by El Che at 9:44 pm on June 9, 2003)

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Well you're wrong in accepting that the Tories view that there is no economic case. That was my original point.

I think I may have misunderstood your last one. Forgive me.

The first part was the more relevant part anyway.

[El Che]

I`m always glad to help people with their reading difficulties.

[Anonymous]

Well as far as i can understand one of the largest cases for not joinign the Euro (and to some extent withdrawing from the economic community) is that some people get the idea that Britain will be propping up other countries especially in Agricultural markets. People have sigthed the inefficiency of France and German whilst stating that agricultural grants to Poland would be excessive considering the percentage of their market made up of Agriculture




Isnt it ironic that now leftist are supporting Europe in Britain whereas once they where its fiercest opponents?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

When were leftists in Britain the "fiercest opponents" of Europe?

This isn't a left/right issue.

[Anonymous]

1970s to late 80s. A time when the Labour Party was very left wing.

The Labour opposition declared that the EMU was a 'fat cat club' and included a promise of withdrawal upon election within their manifesto.

It is only with the modernisations of Smith, Kinnock and finally Blair that the party begain to embrace Europe more.

Saying that Europe has never ravaged the party as it has the Tories.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I say NO to the Euro.

It's one more step to the EU superstate and Mr Blair's EU presidency.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

EU Presidency??? Blair???

I think someone's been selling you the wrong story mate.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Maybe it's BS.
But I don't think it's worth creating another superstate, we have one already.

[Anonymous]

Yes but the hope is that two superstates will balance one another right. Europe acting as an effective barrier to the US.

[El Che]

Right on Funky Monk. A strong Europe is our best bet for opposing or lessening US hegemony. This would help on alot of issues, for example: The Palestinian/Isreali conflict.

There are lots of other examples I can think of.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Funky Monk, I've just noticed the post you made June 9th 11:17pm...about how Labour in the 80's wanted out of the EU.

During that time period, Labour were awful. To use them as a reliable source to back up your point that it's a left/right issue isn't very useful. In the 87 election, where they used their policy to leave the EU as a main vote grabber, they got 35% of the vote. Doesn't say much.

I don't think this is a right/left issue.

Furthermore, after a discussion with a teacher of mine, I'm beginning to question whether we should have a referendum.

Is it the best idea to pass a decision like this onto a nation of people, 41% of whom stayed home on general election day and couldn't be bothered to vote in their government?

Firstly, do we as a nation deserve to vote on this issue after that shambolic ignorance of our duty in democracy?

Secondly, what sense does it make to pass a complex economic issue like this onto a nation of people, half of whom want to keep the pound simply because it looks good?!?

What I'm saying is, 41% of this nation abandoned it's democratic duty in the last election. If a referendum isn't put to the people, we will get cries of how Britain is undemocratic. WHY should such a complex issue like this be made democratic, if nearly half the population can't be fucked getting off their chairs on General Election day to vote in the government?

Personally, I don't think it should.

We should leave this matter to the men that know how to do it. If 80% of people had turned up for the Election in 2001, it would be different. We would've warranted our right to vote on the Euro. But that didn't happen.

As soon as the 5 tests are met, and ONLY when the 5 tests are met, the government should join the Euro.

[Anonymous]

Socialismo, i agree with your point, Labour in the 70s-80s were hopeless and got their political strategy completely wrong. However they provide ample justification becasue this period coincided with a large swing to the far left in the party with groups like Militant Tendancy. Hence Labour in the 70s 80s were a good example of the political left and gave a useful insight into the thoughts of the left wing on Europe ie. that it was a Fat Cat Club designed to help the richest nations at the extent of the poorest.

On the subject of referendums you have a point, there are many demerits of referendums (as the AS-politics exam paper commented on a couple of weeks ago). One point is the apathy, another is the undermining of the British representative system another is the ignorance of the electorate over the matter.

However there are things in favour of a referendum including justification for a government, the fact that a referendum represents extreme democracy and it encourages people to get involved in the political system.

So you can back up any opinion you want, personally i think that Europe is too serious to leave soully to the goverment.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I think it's too serious to leave to the people.

[Anonymous]

Lol


I just dont think the government will be able to face from the 'people' once they make the descision, with a referendum they can justify their actions

Of course, it doesnt matter, the government will only call a referendum when they know what the answer will be.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

What kind of fucking referendum is that?
Sorry but it really pisses me off when govs. brainwash the populace to pacify voters, and then have a referendum so those slimy bastards won't be accused of being undemocratic.

They'll just keep having a referendum until they get their damn euro.

Bastards.

"Sorry, wrong answer. Vote again."

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

There should not be a referendum at all.

The people of this country need to recognise that they have proven, in the last 3 general elections and the local elections in between them, that they are not reliable enough to vote on massively important issues.

[Anonymous]

And do you think they will? Do you think we should rely on people to give up apathy?

Or do you think we should make voting compulsary.
Perhaps better education is needed?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

You're last two points I agree with.

Voting should be compulsory, end of story.

The education could also improve with children being taught basic politics from a young age. I hear they do this in Australia and the people know politics well. The first chance we get the study politics comes at GCSE, and very rarely do schools even bother running it then. So it's not untill A Level that a few people end up studying politics.

[Anonymous]

Thats true, but to some extent basic politics gets taught lower down school with lessons such as PSHE.

I think it is just the presentation of politics generally which fails to capture the minds of the young and give them a reason for voting.