Michael Collins

[elmo sez]

"Of Pearse and Connolly I admire the latter most. Connolly was a realist, Pearse the direct opposite . . . I would have followed him [Connolly] through hell had such action been necessary. But I honestly doubt very much if I would have followed Pearse — not without some thought anyway."

Anybody think that this meant that Collins could have been some kind of socialist ?

[Leo]

Connolly was a nice, intelligent, honest and enthustiastic fellow, that's why Collins liked him. Collins was ideologicaly just a nationalist.

[Free Left]

Nah, Collins was no socialist, he was just the man who masterminded the fight against the British.

[ComradeOm]

Unlike Pearse, Connolly actually planned for success. Its only natural that Collins would look to him for inspiration during the War. That quote encapsulates his admiration for Connolly's skills in organising an insurrection. I've yet to see any evidence to suggest that Collins was in any way a socialist.

[workingman]

Edward Carson who started the real Peoples Army!

[elmo sez]

care to explain that one working man , is that sarcasm?

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 29 2006, 12:55 PM
Nah, Collins was no socialist, he was just the man who masterminded the fight against the British.
I thought he was the guy who circled the moon while Armstrong and Aldrin did all the real work? :D

Seriously, though, Collins was, at best, a social-democrat of the more modern type than a socialist of the kind that Connolly and Pearse. I think ComradeOm is right in his analysis.

Miles

[elmo sez]

Was pearse socialist ? I always thought that he was more on the right ?

[RedAnarchist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 09:00 PM
Was pearse socialist ? I always thought that he was more on the right ?
Going a little offtopic here, but did Pearse have any children? I know this Irish woman in my home city who claims to be his great granddaughter or something.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 08:00 PM
Was pearse socialist ? I always thought that he was more on the right ?
He was a real nationalist in the "blood and glory" sense. Some of his writings on Irish independence are stupidly nationalistic. He called the slaughter of WWI "glorious". However his last few writings do show a change in tone that can be put down to Connolly's influence.

[elmo sez]

Pearse had no children , theres even been speculation that he was gay . maybe shes his his great grand niece or something

[workingman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 05:30 PM
care to explain that one working man , is that sarcasm?
Whilst Edward Carson himself was from the upper classes the vast majority of the original UVF were working men who voluntered to fight for a cause they beleved in were they not. That is why the original UVF is known as the peoples army they were just mobilised by Edward Carson.

Whilst some blinkerd people see it as a contradiction there are alot of Socialist Loyalists. IMO Socialism starts at a comunity level

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by workingman+Jul 30 2006, 09:26 PM--> (workingman @ Jul 30 2006, 09:26 PM)Whilst Edward Carson himself was from the upper classes the vast majority of the original UVF were working men who voluntered to fight for a cause they beleved in were they not. That is why the original UVF is known as the peoples army they were just mobilised by Edward Carson.[/b]
Rubbish. Carson represented the northern capitalist class whose industry was geared towards the imperial markets. That was all. If Britain could not provide the markets of the empire then he was willing to side with the Germans:


Carson in 1913
We have the offer of aid from a powerful Continental monarch, who, if Home Rule is forced on the Protestants of Ireland, is prepared to send an army sufficient to release England of any further trouble in Ireland by attaching to his dominion.

[elmo sez]

Socialist Loyalists , theres really no such thing , its a contraadiction in so many ways , Socialists that submit to a monarchy whose power is founded upon private property , its rubbish

CArson was a twat as Comrade om pointed out , he was a complete reactionary , only looking out for his own interests ... he could give a toss about loyalty to britain

[workingman]

Originally posted by ComradeOm+Jul 31 2006, 11:02 AM--> (ComradeOm @ Jul 31 2006, 11:02 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 09:26 PM
Whilst Edward Carson himself was from the upper classes the vast majority of the original UVF were working men who voluntered to fight for a cause they beleved in were they not. That is why the original UVF is known as the peoples army they were just mobilised by Edward Carson.
Rubbish. Carson represented the northern capitalist class whose industry was geared towards the imperial markets. That was all. If Britain could not provide the markets of the empire then he was willing to side with the Germans:


Carson in 1913
We have the offer of aid from a powerful Continental monarch, who, if Home Rule is forced on the Protestants of Ireland, is prepared to send an army sufficient to release England of any further trouble in Ireland by attaching to his dominion. [/b]
As the Irish Republic sided with the Nazis in WWII

[workingman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 12:10 PM
Socialist Loyalists , theres really no such thing , its a contraadiction in so many ways , Socialists that submit to a monarchy whose power is founded upon private property , its rubbish

CArson was a twat as Comrade om pointed out , he was a complete reactionary , only looking out for his own interests ... he could give a toss about loyalty to britain
So your saying that every working class protestant in Northern Ireland who wishes to stay British and that has left wing leanings is not a socialist?

I was born on the Shankill rd I'm a socialist and would fight against home rule the same as my grandfather did.

You state that Carson went to Germany to get his guns now where did the origial IRA get theres?

At the end of the day Ulster stands alone. We have the left wanting home rule, the far right want home rule and the big 3 are selling us down the river. All while our houses burn and our comunitys are broken up and cornerd.

When your backs to the wall all you can do is fight...

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 03:21 PM
As the Irish Republic sided with the Nazis in WWII
Well that statement is both incorrect and irrelevant. Its incorrect because, despite protestations of neutrality, the Republic clearly sided with the UK during the war. It is irrelevant because not one person here has claimed that Collins or the Republic were in any way socialist.

I can only assume that you are one of these "Socialist Loyalists"... if you call someone idolises Carson, and longs for a return to the days when Catholic workingmen were considered second class citizens, socialist. The North is a capitalist construct (by your Carson nonetheless) designed to ensure that Belfast capitalists retained access to Imperial markets.

[workingman]

Originally posted by ComradeOm+Jul 31 2006, 03:37 PM--> (ComradeOm @ Jul 31 2006, 03:37 PM)
[email protected] 31 2006, 03:21 PM
As the Irish Republic sided with the Nazis in WWII
Well that statement is both incorrect and irrelevant. Its incorrect because, despite protestations of neutrality, the Republic clearly sided with the UK during the war. It is irrelevant because not one person here has claimed that Collins or the Republic were in any way socialist.

I can only assume that you are one of these "Socialist Loyalists"... if you call someone idolises Carson, and longs for a return to the days when Catholic workingmen were considered second class citizens, socialist. The North is a capitalist construct (by your Carson nonetheless) designed to ensure that Belfast capitalists retained access to Imperial markets. [/b]
I dont Idolise Carson at all I admire the men who volunteered for the UVF and went to fight in the fields of the Somme beleving that Ulster would stay British.

I also strongly admire the men from the Irish Republic who volunteered to join the British Army fight against facism. These men were from a nutral country and did not have to fight.

The German embacy in Dublin during WWII was as good as the Abwher head quaters, the Irish sea was a no go zone for alied shiping due to Nazi submarines and due to Irland not having blackout restrictions Belfast was bombed to hell and back. This doesnt sound like the Republic being on Britains side to me.


I opose sectarianism, racism and greed. Life is built on mutual respect its the only way society can progress.

[elmo sez]

True socialists are internationalists , nationality isnt important to them unless they are being dominated by a foreign power , ie england over ireland.

If you claim to be a socialist then you would support democracy , if you do not support democracy then you are not socialist . You claim that you would fight home rule despite the fact that the irish people vote overwhelmingly in favour of Home Rule before WW1 .

Why do you want to be britain anyway ? What difference does it make ?

[elmo sez]

The German embacy in Dublin during WWII was as good as the Abwher head quaters, the Irish sea was a no go zone for alied shiping due to Nazi submarines and due to Irland not having blackout restrictions Belfast was bombed to hell and back. This doesnt sound like the Republic being on Britains side to me.

You failed to mention , the fact that the irish free state sent fire brigades up north after the bombing raids to help put out fires , they mostly helped catholic areas , mainly because the fire service up the north went to the protestant and unionist areas first .

YOu failed to mention the fact that the free state let british pilots who crash landed in ireland "escape " back over the border while the germans where interned till the end of the war .

You failed to mention that MET Eirinn passed on any information on the weather to the british while the special branch cooperated with british intellegence.



What about the opening up of a small corridor of free state airspace over donegal so that the allies could have direct access to the atlantic

Seems like they were on their side to me .

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 03:51 PM
I admire the men who volunteered for the UVF and went to fight in the fields of the Somme beleving that Ulster would stay British.
Of course you do. In your world being British is the most important thing of all. The fact that Carson and co. were prepared to sell out the Unionist movement (that haven of bigots and sectarians) and London just so that they could maintain access to Imperial markets doesn't cross your mind at all. The idea that he was a socialist is ludicrous.


The German embacy in Dublin during WWII was as good as the Abwher head quaters, the Irish sea was a no go zone for alied shiping due to Nazi submarines and due to Irland not having blackout restrictions Belfast was bombed to hell and back. This doesnt sound like the Republic being on Britains side to me.
Let me see…

British pilots that crash landed in the Republic were automatically released across the border while German pilots were interned.

The dates of the D-Day landings were based on weather reports passed on from Dublin.

Refugees from German bombing in the Blitz were accepted.

The continued use of Irish waters by both the Royal Navy and allied shipping.

Irish and British intelligence services co-operated on a number of occasions, most notably in Plan Kathleen.

In short the idea that Ireland co-operated with the Axis powers is bullshit. Similar to the claim that Carson was in any way socialist. Similar to this "Socialist Loyalist" nonsense.

[workingman]

So your saying I'm not a Socialist? Well I say your a Nazi republican and deserve to die the cowards death like the fenian cowards you support!

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 07:09 PM
So your saying I'm not a Socialist? Well I say your a Nazi republican and deserve to die the cowards death like the fenian cowards you support!
I rest my case.

Both Northern and Southern socialists must overcome sectarian differences. This does not however imply that any Irishman should recognise the artificial product of capitalism that is Northern Ireland. Of course that's a concern of socialists... which neither Carson nor yourself qualify as.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by workingman+Jul 31 2006, 03:21 PM--> (workingman @ Jul 31 2006, 03:21 PM)
Originally posted by ComradeOm+Jul 31 2006, 11:02 AM--> (ComradeOm @ Jul 31 2006, 11:02 AM)
[email protected] 30 2006, 09:26 PM
Whilst Edward Carson himself was from the upper classes the vast majority of the original UVF were working men who voluntered to fight for a cause they beleved in were they not. That is why the original UVF is known as the peoples army they were just mobilised by Edward Carson.
Rubbish. Carson represented the northern capitalist class whose industry was geared towards the imperial markets. That was all. If Britain could not provide the markets of the empire then he was willing to side with the Germans:


Carson in 1913
We have the offer of aid from a powerful Continental monarch, who, if Home Rule is forced on the Protestants of Ireland, is prepared to send an army sufficient to release England of any further trouble in Ireland by attaching to his dominion. [/b]
As the Irish Republic sided with the Nazis in WWII [/b]
As comradeOm said, rubbish. The Free State was even armed by the Brits to defend the Irish coastlines in case of an invasion.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 08:00 PM
Was pearse socialist ? I always thought that he was more on the right ?
You could argue he was pro-socailist, but that it wasn't the most important thing in his mind. He did for instance, admire Connolly and write on the conditions of the working class at the time.

This has a lot more info on the relationship between connolly and pearse: http://www.iol.ie/~sob/jcet/2006-03-21-mma.html

[elmo sez]

So your saying I'm not a Socialist? Well I say your a Nazi republican and deserve to die the cowards death like the fenian cowards you support!

In a way yes, you seem to be a socialist but only for unionists , please explain why you are socialist?

No need for name calling were quite obviously not nazi republicans , when have i support the "fenians" ? Im merely talking about facts

[gilhyle]

Actually Connolly - of whom a I would be something of an admirer - was not really a pleasant man at all. He was difficult to talk to, fiercely opinionated, and quite rude. So it isnt because he was 'nice' that Collins liked him.

Collins' comment is that of a military man. In war, the man you will follow is most highly valued. Connolly came into his own in Easter week, while Pearse effectively rested in a corner.

Collins would have had little knowedge of Connolly before Easter week and virtually no knowledge of his politics.

Like many IRB men, Collins was aware of the vaguely left wing leanings of the Fenians to whom the IRB traced their origins, linked as they were in exile to ex-communards, jacobins, polish nationalists, followers of Garibaldi etc. Like Pearse, he was capable of associating the evils of capitalism with the evils of British rule. But like all nationalists of his generation, his preferred solution, on reflection, was the nurturing of native capitalism.

Socialist ? ..... no

Fighter ? ..... yes

[Seven Stars]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 11:08 PM
Collins would have had little knowedge of Connolly before Easter week and virtually no knowledge of his politics.
Connolly was very well know as as a active Labor organizer, especially after the 1913 lockout. So Collins would have heard of him and his politics well before the Rising.