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OneBrickOneVoice
29th July 2006, 20:01
this question has been eating at me for a while. I think the idea of a party is a good one and I don't see a revolution being succesful without one but my question is what changes have we made to avoid another stalinist nightmare?

More Fire for the People
29th July 2006, 21:13
For one we must vigilantly keep up democratic decision making within the party. Secondly, all proletarian organizations should have the undeniable rights of freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Thirdly, we need to constantly work against capitalist restorationism and party absolutism through a cultural revolution.

bcbm
29th July 2006, 21:18
I don't think we need a party; self-organized autonomous councils will do fine. As long as decision making is kept democratic and decentralized but coordinated.

OneBrickOneVoice
29th July 2006, 22:12
For one we must vigilantly keep up democratic decision making within the party. Secondly, all proletarian organizations should have the undeniable rights of freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Thirdly, we need to constantly work against capitalist restorationism and party absolutism through a cultural revolution.

But are our parties run democratically now?



I don't think we need a party; self-organized autonomous councils will do fine. As long as decision making is kept democratic and decentralized but coordinated.


how can thousands even millions of small decentralized councils be coordinated as one and stay decentralized as a party?

bcbm
29th July 2006, 22:17
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 01:13 PM
how can thousands even millions of small decentralized councils be coordinated as one

how can thousands even millions of small decentralized councils be coordinated as one

Spokescouncils and accountable delegates. Of course, they don't have to all be on the same page about everything.


stay decentralized as a party?

I think parties are irrelevant.

Dyst
29th July 2006, 23:19
I think parties are irrelevant.

What you are talking about pretty much is a very decentralized party though, if there's supposed to be communication between the councils.

OneBrickOneVoice
30th July 2006, 00:38
Originally posted by black banner black gun+Jul 29 2006, 07:18 PM--> (black banner black gun @ Jul 29 2006, 07:18 PM)
[email protected] 29 2006, 01:13 PM
how can thousands even millions of small decentralized councils be coordinated as one

how can thousands even millions of small decentralized councils be coordinated as one

Spokescouncils and accountable delegates. Of course, they don't have to all be on the same page about everything.
[/b]
So are you saying the delegates would meet to discuss strategy in like a grand council? that's centralization isn't it?

JC1
30th July 2006, 23:21
I think this is a non-issue. The material condition's in Russia in 1917 were much worse then a modern day neo-colony.

LoneRed
31st July 2006, 02:07
he never asked what needs to be done, he asked what has been done.

for leninist parties, nothing new, same ol garbage.


Rick

YKTMX
31st July 2006, 02:22
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 05:02 PM
this question has been eating at me for a while. I think the idea of a party is a good one and I don't see a revolution being succesful without one but my question is what changes have we made to avoid another stalinist nightmare?
While I respect the "it's not Russia 1917" viewpoint, I do think that in the next revolutionary wave, it will still be important to stave off the Thermidorian reaction. All great revolutions, even bourgeois ones, have seen periods of "bounce back", when the seemingly annihilated class "comes back" and seeks, or even succeeds, in reasserting dominance, or least ensuring the revolution is "contained" to some degree. This may take the form of just murdering everybody (Stalinism) or more subtle forms of "restraint", like we saw after the German revolution.

These things tend to happen as the revolutionary class "slips back" into a "day-to-day" attitude after the deed of revolution. It's something we can defend against by making sure the democratic organs of the state function properly. We can also ensure that the cultural and political life of the revolutionary state is kept alive and vibrant. One of the sad aspects of the murder of the Russian revolution was not only the political defeat, but the tremendous period reaction in Soviet culture and art, from the highs of Eisenstein to the lows of crap Socialist (un) Realism and anti-modernism.

OneBrickOneVoice
31st July 2006, 05:57
Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 08:22 PM
I think this is a non-issue. The material condition's in Russia in 1917 were much worse then a modern day neo-colony.
It's very much an issue. I think if more people understood that communism is really an ideology which can only be reached through democracy, they'd consider it more. If there wasn't this idea that communism is an evil military dicatatorship with people like Stalin and castro in charge, they'd consider it. I think leninist and trotskyist parties need to make the fact that they are parties based on the principles of democratic centralism chrystal clear. How do we do that is now the question.

Entrails Konfetti
31st July 2006, 06:35
Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 29 2006, 06:19 PM
I don't think we need a party; self-organized autonomous councils will do fine. As long as decision making is kept democratic and decentralized but coordinated.
But that was the original idea of the Communist Party of the Russian revolution.

The party was supposed create a program to enhance consciousness, which would get workers to create councils.

Workers aren't going to simulteanously create councils without a revolutionary organization. Something has to promote the idea of councils in the first place.

More Fire for the People
31st July 2006, 17:28
Workers aren't going to simulteanously create councils without a revolutionary organization. Something has to promote the idea of councils in the first place.
Soviets quickly sprung up on their own after the 1905 and 1917 revolutions. The problem with the soviets were that they were grossly inefficient. Thus the Bolsheviks promoted a more concise form of soviets that would serve as political bodies of the proletariat — factory committees.

bcbm
31st July 2006, 18:49
What you are talking about pretty much is a very decentralized party though, if there's supposed to be communication between the councils.

No, its a bunch of decentralized councils chatting with each other about whatever issues they need to solve.

-------


So are you saying the delegates would meet to discuss strategy in like a grand council? that's centralization isn't it?

I wouldn't call it a "grand" council; it would only exist if issues affecting a wider area needed to be discussed and solved.

-------


Workers aren't going to simulteanously create councils without a revolutionary organization. Something has to promote the idea of councils in the first place.

Actually, there are quite a number of examples of workers opting to organize themselves into councils independent of any revolutionary organization. It seems to just be a good form of organization.

Entrails Konfetti
31st July 2006, 19:17
Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 31 2006, 03:50 PM
Actually, there are quite a number of examples of workers opting to organize themselves into councils independent of any revolutionary organization. It seems to just be a good form of organization.
I'm not saying the councils should be subordinate to a revolutionary organization.

However a revolutionary organization when it raises consciousness does help with a direction for why the councils should organize.

OneBrickOneVoice
31st July 2006, 19:25
Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 31 2006, 03:50 PM


So are you saying the delegates would meet to discuss strategy in like a grand council? that's centralization isn't it?

I wouldn't call it a "grand" council; it would only exist if issues affecting a wider area needed to be discussed and solved.
And there will be issues that affect a wider area... You think that there'd be regualr thumb-twidling sessions? There's always something that needs to be discussed.

nickdlc
31st July 2006, 21:02
Soviets quickly sprung up on their own after the 1905 and 1917 revolutions. The problem with the soviets were that they were grossly inefficient. Thus the Bolsheviks promoted a more concise form of soviets that would serve as political bodies of the proletariat — factory committees. Well thats not quite right. Factory committees also formed spontaneously from workers efforts. Soviets originally formed to co-ordinate strikes wheareas workers formed factory comittees to gain concessions in thier workplaces or even take over their workplaces and run them in the interest of workers.

Bolsheviks did not think up of factory comittees and say "workers you should form factory comitees" they (the workers) were all ready doing that.

bcbm
31st July 2006, 21:17
I'm not saying the councils should be subordinate to a revolutionary organization.

All right. I'm not opposed to revolutionary organizations, and definitely feel they should be agitating and educating but I think the ultimate nature of the struggle and the formation of revolutionary apparatti will be done by the workers themselves, with those of us from organizations being mere participants.


And there will be issues that affect a wider area... You think that there'd be regualr thumb-twidling sessions? There's always something that needs to be discussed.

No, I'm saying that such councils will only exist when issues affecting wider areas merit discussion.

Led Zeppelin
1st August 2006, 14:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 05:02 PM
this question has been eating at me for a while. I think the idea of a party is a good one and I don't see a revolution being succesful without one but my question is what changes have we made to avoid another stalinist nightmare?
Pretty simple, do what Lenin proposed in State and Revolution.

By that I am mainly referring to:


All officials, without exception, elected and subject to recall at any time, their salaries reduced to the level of ordinary "workmen's wages" — these simple and "self-evident" democratic measures, while completely uniting the interests of the workers and the majority of the peasants, at the same time serve as a bridge leading from capitalism to socialism. These measures concern the reorganization of the state, the purely political reorganization of society; but, of course, they acquire their full meaning and significance only in connection with the "expropriation of the expropriators" either bring accomplished or in preparation, i.e., with the transformation of capitalist private ownership of the means of production into social ownership.

More Fire for the People
1st August 2006, 23:37
Marxism-Leninism, I agree with that quote but I'm afraid it grossly ignores the necessity of cultural revolution under socialism.

OneBrickOneVoice
2nd August 2006, 00:12
Originally posted by Marxism-Leninism+Aug 1 2006, 11:07 AM--> (Marxism-Leninism @ Aug 1 2006, 11:07 AM)
[email protected] 29 2006, 05:02 PM
this question has been eating at me for a while. I think the idea of a party is a good one and I don't see a revolution being succesful without one but my question is what changes have we made to avoid another stalinist nightmare?
Pretty simple, do what Lenin proposed in State and Revolution.

By that I am mainly referring to:


All officials, without exception, elected and subject to recall at any time, their salaries reduced to the level of ordinary "workmen's wages" — these simple and "self-evident" democratic measures, while completely uniting the interests of the workers and the majority of the peasants, at the same time serve as a bridge leading from capitalism to socialism. These measures concern the reorganization of the state, the purely political reorganization of society; but, of course, they acquire their full meaning and significance only in connection with the "expropriation of the expropriators" either bring accomplished or in preparation, i.e., with the transformation of capitalist private ownership of the means of production into social ownership. [/b]
The question is, why didn't lenin do that in Russia? By the time of his death you could already see signs of beaurocratic centralism rather than democratic centralism. What can we do to ensure it stays democratic?

OneBrickOneVoice
2nd August 2006, 00:14
Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 1 2006, 08:38 PM
Marxism-Leninism, I agree with that quote but I'm afraid it grossly ignores the necessity of cultural revolution under socialism.
What do you mean? I've only heard that in a maoist sense.

Janus
2nd August 2006, 00:17
What can we do to ensure it stays democratic?
Keep power in the hands of the masses. Practices such as demarchy or direct democracy will ensure that any time of central power will be balanced with grassroots power as well.

More Fire for the People
2nd August 2006, 00:35
Originally posted by LeftyHenry+Aug 1 2006, 03:15 PM--> (LeftyHenry @ Aug 1 2006, 03:15 PM)
Hopscotch [email protected] 1 2006, 08:38 PM
Marxism-Leninism, I agree with that quote but I'm afraid it grossly ignores the necessity of cultural revolution under socialism.
What do you mean? I've only heard that in a maoist sense. [/b]
Well, I did borrow the word from the Maoism but the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s was crude and ultimately a failure. I mean 'cultural revolution' in a sense that we abandon bourgeois cultural customs for new, proletarian ones. Akin to the Communist League's 'building a culture of liberation'.

A Suvorov
2nd August 2006, 04:58
Something that may not have been addressed is the difference in the operations of an organization in transition from a 'revolutionary' one to that of a de facto government. At what point is the 'revolution' complete? How far DO you go in changing the face of the nation?

Lenin's tactics in achieving the October Revolution were different from those once the Bolsheviks attained power; so, too, must we (as a whole) tend to the basic questions asked above. How do we GET in power, and do we RETAIN it once it is grasped? In what way are the needs of the masses best served in each 'phase' of the revolution?

And finally (but certainly far from the last word in this perplexing thread) how do we make the transition from being The Revolution to being The Establishment? After all, who needs revolutinaries once the revolution has been achieved?

Led Zeppelin
2nd August 2006, 13:07
Originally posted by LeftyHenry+--> (LeftyHenry)The question is, why didn't lenin do that in Russia? By the time of his death you could already see signs of beaurocratic centralism rather than democratic centralism. What can we do to ensure it stays democratic?[/b]

Lenin didn't do that for several reasons; civil war, capitalist encirclement, economic ruin of the nation etc.

If a State and Revolution type of state was established it would have collapsed in a matter of months. But that is not important, after the French revolution did the bourgeoisie establish a democratic republic? Or was it followed by a highly centralized dictatorship which was required to stabilize the nation for the bourgeois democratic republic?

The latter is the case. I believe Lenin thought the same thing was required in Russia. The party first had to centralize and build up the Soviet state to a certain level of development which was required for the State and Rev type of state to function properly. Of course we all know what happened, the "Napoleon of the Russia" took over, and stabilized the nation, which was required, but then due to other factors such as World War 2, Cold War etc. it was not able to become a State and Rev type of state.


Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected]
Marxism-Leninism, I agree with that quote but I'm afraid it grossly ignores the necessity of cultural revolution under socialism.

Well, yes it does, but Lenin did not ignore it:


Lenin
Significance of Electrification

1. Modern technics.

2. Restoration of productive forces. Increasing them.

3. Centralisation-maximum.

4. Communism= Soviet power + electrification.

5. General integrated plan: focussing the people’s attention and energies.

6. Raising culture (of the working people).

6. Not simple literacy.

Notes on Electrification (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/feb/x02.htm)

The electrification plan included raising of the cultural level of the proletariat. Basically, the cultural revolution is not a Maoist "idea", it was inherent in the Marxist movement long before he coined the term. And yes, I do realize it's importance. My point is that we should stop trying to "make new ideas" to "prevent revisionism" when the ideas we're trying to come up with were already thought of (but not implemented) by past theoreticians.

We should work to actually implement those ideas.

Axel1917
4th August 2006, 00:46
Originally posted by LeftyHenry+Aug 1 2006, 09:13 PM--> (LeftyHenry @ Aug 1 2006, 09:13 PM)
Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 1 2006, 11:07 AM

[email protected] 29 2006, 05:02 PM
this question has been eating at me for a while. I think the idea of a party is a good one and I don't see a revolution being succesful without one but my question is what changes have we made to avoid another stalinist nightmare?
Pretty simple, do what Lenin proposed in State and Revolution.

By that I am mainly referring to:


All officials, without exception, elected and subject to recall at any time, their salaries reduced to the level of ordinary "workmen's wages" — these simple and "self-evident" democratic measures, while completely uniting the interests of the workers and the majority of the peasants, at the same time serve as a bridge leading from capitalism to socialism. These measures concern the reorganization of the state, the purely political reorganization of society; but, of course, they acquire their full meaning and significance only in connection with the "expropriation of the expropriators" either bring accomplished or in preparation, i.e., with the transformation of capitalist private ownership of the means of production into social ownership.
The question is, why didn't lenin do that in Russia? By the time of his death you could already see signs of beaurocratic centralism rather than democratic centralism. What can we do to ensure it stays democratic? [/b]
Another important aspect for this is for the revolution to spread around the planet, thereby ensuring that backward nations do not get stuck in the isolation that will make the conditions for Stalinism a reality. This will mean having a good leadership, of which we must stive to build up wherever we live. Problems with leadership have proven disastrous in the past, and they will do as such in the future if we are not on the right track when things really start rolling.

The isolation of the revolution in backward Russia had created the conditions for Stalinism, of which had added onto a population tired out by war.

Some good reading on this subject can be read online at:

http://www.marxist.com/russiabook-2.htm

More Fire for the People
4th August 2006, 01:52
Another important aspect for this is for the revolution to spread around the planet, thereby ensuring that backward nations do not get stuck in the isolation that will make the conditions for Stalinism a reality
I do not see how this is a necessity. A republic of working peoples can develop its own technology. An example of this would Cuba and its medical industries. 'Backward' nations do not need a dependency upon Euro-American nations.

I would say the death of soviet democracy began with the decline of pluralistic democratic centralism and the cultural revolution.

YKTMX
4th August 2006, 02:05
Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 3 2006, 10:53 PM

Another important aspect for this is for the revolution to spread around the planet, thereby ensuring that backward nations do not get stuck in the isolation that will make the conditions for Stalinism a reality
I do not see how this is a necessity. A republic of working peoples can develop its own technology. An example of this would Cuba and its medical industries. 'Backward' nations do not need a dependency upon Euro-American nations.

Cuba was always relatively richer than other Latin American nations. It's standards of living historically was on a par with those in places like Argentina and even Italy. Cuba saw immigration from places like Spain in the 1930.

In the time of state capitalism, Cuban society has fell behind such societies in terms of both per capita income and life expectancy. The Cuban medical services are vastly underfunded. The stagnation in the Cuban economy is a product both of the blockade, the collapse of their imperial benefactor and the general inefficiency in the state capitalist system.

Janus
4th August 2006, 02:14
The stagnation in the Cuban economy is a product both of the blockade, the collapse of their imperial benefactor and the general inefficiency in the state capitalist system.
But the people themselves had a large hand in the recovery after the Special Period. Sure the gov. helped it out but in this incidence it wasn't very "inefficient" but rather acted much faster than most other nations would've done.

YKTMX
4th August 2006, 02:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 11:15 PM

The stagnation in the Cuban economy is a product both of the blockade, the collapse of their imperial benefactor and the general inefficiency in the state capitalist system.
But the people themselves had a large hand in the recovery after the Special Period. Sure the gov. helped it out but in this incidence it wasn't very "inefficient" but rather acted much faster than most other nations would've done.
So? The American working class had a "large hand" in the recovery after the depression. The point is, in both cases, society is ordered and restored from the top down.

It places control in the hands of "planners" or "captains of industry" rather than the self-activity and creativity of the working class.

More Fire for the People
4th August 2006, 02:45
In the time of state capitalism, Cuban society has fell behind such societies in terms of both per capita income and life expectancy.
Cuba is not 'state-capitalist'. There are no capitalist in Cuba and consequently capitalist relations do not exist in Cuba. The life expentacy in Cuba is 77 years, in Italy: 80.75 years, and in Spain: 79.65. Holy shit! Italians and Spaniards live 2-3 years longer than the average Cuba :o Oh and the life expectancy of the average American is 77 years also. That's better than how many petty-bourgeois Cliffite states... oh wait :lol:


The Cuban medical services are vastly underfunded. The stagnation in the Cuban economy is a product both of the blockade, the collapse of their imperial benefactor and the general inefficiency in the state capitalist system.
Again, Cuba is not 'state-capitalist'. Cuba, because it is an island nation, has too little resources to build socialism on its own but because of the great effeciency of the workers' republic it has been steadily developing technology in order to further socialize its economy.


So? The American working class had a "large hand" in the recovery after the depression. The point is, in both cases, society is ordered and restored from the top down.
I don't see how it matters if it is 'top-down' or not if the 'top' is proletariat.

Janus
4th August 2006, 02:51
The American working class had a "large hand" in the recovery after the depression. The point is, in both cases, society is ordered and restored from the top down.
Yes, I agree. Though the people's initiave was stronger in Cuba, it was not as "autonomous" as one would hope.

But from what I understand of the Special Period, there was a lot of mass action by the people while the government more or less encouraged it rather than planned it.

But I agree with you concerning direct control in the hands of the people.

Comrade-Z
4th August 2006, 03:01
But that is not important, after the French revolution did the bourgeoisie establish a democratic republic? Or was it followed by a highly centralized dictatorship which was required to stabilize the nation for the bourgeois democratic republic?

The key difference, of course, is that the bourgeoisie after the French Revolution maintained control of the means of production. They did not entrust that to the State. Consequently, they were still able to exercise control over the State.

So let's say IF you thought a centralized dictatorship was necessary for the proletariat in order to destroy the remaining bourgeoisie and prepare the country for the "State and Revolution" type of society, then the proletariat must retain control over the means of production at all times in order to ultimately retain control of the dictatorship. That means no usurpation of soviet council power by the State.

Severian
4th August 2006, 11:04
Chapter 26: in which we learn that there's no point in saying "X only please" since there's no way to enforce it.

"What Have We Changed This Time Around?" The objective conditions, mostly. Economic and cultural backwardness, plus lack of victorious revolutions in more advanced countries, led to the growth of bureaucracy in the USSR.

A revolution in the advanced capitalist countries - especially today - would face a whole different situation.

Even in the Third World, things like literacy rates are often higher than in 1917 Russia. The example of Cuba shows that bureaucracy can be....contained, limited in degree in power - even in adverse conditions. The fact they had the aid of the USSR in the early years is a big factor there. One thing that had changed that time around.

(Though Soviet aid did come with a price of bureaucratic political influence.)

That's the main answer, objective conditions...but there are some things that can be learned from the experience of past revolutions, I think.

One is the importance of educational and cultural level; the Bolsheviks knew this of course, and worked hard to improve it....but never did (were never able to do?) anything like the literacy campaigns of Cuba and Nicaragua. Some others....


Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 29 2006, 12:14 PM
For one we must vigilantly keep up democratic decision making within the party. Secondly, all proletarian organizations should have the undeniable rights of freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Thirdly, we need to constantly work against capitalist restorationism and party absolutism through a cultural revolution.
I agree with the first two.

I might add that it's not so simple to say: grant freedom to proletarian organizations. The problem is, who decides which organization is proletarian, and who is a counterrevolutionary maggot who must be ruthlessly crushed? Who guards the guardians?

There is no easy answer. Repression against bourgeois political organization also has an intimidating effect on workers. Because there is, and can be, no Chinese Wall which guarantees the same won't happen to you.

But of course everyone knows revolutions aren't dinner parties, you can't make an omelet etc etc. Repression remains necessary.....a necessary evil.

I think that ol' bourgeois revoluitonary Macchiavelli was right, also: "Hence we may learn the lesson that on seizing a state, the usurper should make haste to inflict what injuries he must, at a stroke, that he may not have to renew them daily, but be enabled by their discontinuance to reassure men’s minds, and afterwards win them over by benefits. Whosoever, either through timidity or from following bad counsels, adopts a contrary course, must keep the sword always drawn, and can put no trust in his subjects, who suffering from continued and constantly renewed severities, will never yield him their confidence."

That was an error the Bolsheviks made initially: too much mercy. Captured enemies were released on the promise that they would not take up arms again...this promise was of course often broken. During the October insurrection, bourgeois political leaders and officers were let out of the capital when they could have been arrested. It took time for the Russian workers to learn ruthlessness.

If they'd been more severe from the beginning, maybe they coulda been more relaxed later - after the Civil War was over anyway. Consider Cuba: they tried and shot a few thousand Batistiano war criminals right off, and they've been less repressive than the Bolsheviks since.

As for "cultural revolution", that points away from proletarian democracy and towards unrestrained apparatchik dictatorship. Socialist culture - if it's to be a progressive advance - can only be built on the cultural accumulated by the past. Just as socialist economic construction builds on the means of production inherited from the past...heck, culture is an important means of production.

In contrast, the "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" proclaimed "the older, the more reactionary" in order to smash all culture, learning and education....except the Holy Writ of Chairman Mao. Schools were shut, almost no books were published except the Little Red Book. Which was learned by rote in compulsory meetings.

Those who didn't parrot the line were beaten and publicly humiliated. It was a period of exceptionally pervasive state-sponsored terror against working people. A strike by Shanghai workers was broken by the Red Guards of Mao's faction. All this was to keep the masses from taking advantage of a factional conflict within the bureaucracy. To keep them from overthrowing the whole rotten bureaucracy and all its factions.

Gangs sponsored by different parts of the state apparatus fought in the streets - with weapons supplied by different parts of the army - and control of the army ultimately decided the outcome of the factional struggle. The last act was the suppression of the Red Guards by Mao, using the army, since they had outlived their usefulness.

And we don't even know what the factional conflict was about, to this day, since none of Mao's factional opponents ever had any...."undeniable rights of freedom of speech and freedom of the press." As you put it. We've only heard one side, Mao's side.

It is a useful example of what not to do. We can benefit by the experience to build workers' democracy - just do the exact opposite. (Judge only after hearing all sides of a debate within the party, make books and education available to everyone, Etc.)
An article by some ex-Maoists about the "Cultural Revolution" - not that I agree with everything in there, but it has some of the more important facts. (https://www.flash.net/~comvoice/20cChinaLeft.html)

Severian
4th August 2006, 11:18
Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 31 2006, 09:50 AM

What you are talking about pretty much is a very decentralized party though, if there's supposed to be communication between the councils.

No, its a bunch of decentralized councils chatting with each other about whatever issues they need to solve.
Which necessarily leads to market relations between these autonomous councils. If two or three decide to do that, they'll outcompete those who don't. Simply because they are making profit their highest priority, they'll be more profitable than those who don't.Since the "means of production" are in their hands, not the bad centralized state (if there is one), this necessarily will lead towards increasing inequality and eventually the restoration of capitalism. (At first as "employee-owned" corporations like United Airlines in the U.S.)

Like Yugoslavia's "Self-management" - only more so.

Decentralization is not necessarily more democratic anyway.

Herman
4th August 2006, 14:36
But of course everyone knows revolutions aren't dinner parties, you can't make an omelet etc etc. Repression remains necessary.....a necessary evil.

This is what many are unable to see. Terror is absolutely necessary, especially nowadays with the rise of computer technology and robotics.


That was an error the Bolsheviks made initially: too much mercy. Captured enemies were released on the promise that they would not take up arms again...this promise was of course often broken. During the October insurrection, bourgeois political leaders and officers were let out of the capital when they could have been arrested. It took time for the Russian workers to learn ruthlessness.

To grant mercy is to put the workers to death. The bourgeoisie can rally their supporters and organize themselves against the working class.

More Fire for the People
4th August 2006, 18:51
In contrast, the "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" proclaimed "the older, the more reactionary" in order to smash all culture, learning and education....except the Holy Writ of Chairman Mao. Schools were shut, almost no books were published except the Little Red Book. Which was learned by rote in compulsory meetings.
I was not directly speaking of the GPCR despite receiving inspiration by the CR. I believe we can create another socilaist cultural revolution without the mistakes of the Chinese CR. I believe that we should create the revolutionary new out of the ashes of the old. We use the existing means to reach a new end with the end being the creation of a kind of proletarian übermensch capable of being actively communist.

Edit: Here’s a quote by Trotsky similar to what I've said,The proletariat cannot postpone socialist reconstruction until the time when its new scientists, many of whom are still running about in short trousers, will test and clean all the instruments and all the channels of knowledge. The proletariat rejects what is clearly unnecessary, false and reactionary, and in the various fields of its reconstruction makes use of the methods and conclusions of present-day science, taking them necessarily with the percentage of reactionary class-alloy which is contained in them. The practical result will justify itself generally and on the whole, because such a use when controlled by a socialist goal will gradually manage and select the methods and conclusions of the theory.

YKTMX
4th August 2006, 20:55
There are no capitalist in Cuba and consequently capitalist relations do not exist in Cuba.

There are capitalists in Cuba. They dress in military uniforms and prance about talking "socialism". It's just a gameshow. And you're a vapid audience member who "applauds" when the little light comes on telling you to do so.


Italians and Spaniards live 2-3 years longer than the average Cuba

What about per capita income? Why that has so drastically declined relative to those countries?


hat's better than how many petty-bourgeois Cliffite states... oh wait

Don't try jokes.


I don't see how it matters if it is 'top-down' or not if the 'top' is proletariat.

Of course you don't, because you don't understand socialism. You don't understand that socialism is self-emancipation and organic institutions created from below by the working class, and that these institutions directly control society and have collective control over the means of production.

For you, Socialism is doctors in the jungle shouting "Listen, Yanqui" and treating fungal foot infections.

You're a Stalinist lamppost and a cretin.

Janus
5th August 2006, 01:17
As for "cultural revolution", that points away from proletarian democracy and towards unrestrained apparatchik dictatorship. Socialist culture - if it's to be a progressive advance - can only be built on the cultural accumulated by the past. Just as socialist economic construction builds on the means of production inherited from the past...heck, culture is an important means of production.
I don't think that's what Hopscotch was talking about.


In contrast, the "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" proclaimed "the older, the more reactionary" in order to smash all culture, learning and education....except the Holy Writ of Chairman Mao. Schools were shut, almost no books were published except the Little Red Book. Which was learned by rote in compulsory meetings.

Unless you understand the problems of traditional Chinese culture, you won't understand the reasons for destroying it.

Yet I do agree in that I see no point in trying to destroy every vestige of it or calling someone a counter-revolutionary because they have some of Li Bai's poems.

Furthermore, schools were shut down because no one was going to school. Most kids were responded to Mao's calls and traveled and roamed the country. This is why they're referred to as the Lost Generation.


Those who didn't parrot the line were beaten and publicly humiliated. It was a period of exceptionally pervasive state-sponsored terror against working people. A strike by Shanghai workers was broken by the Red Guards of Mao's faction. All this was to keep the masses from taking advantage of a factional conflict within the bureaucracy. To keep them from overthrowing the whole rotten bureaucracy and all its factions.
A lot of workers were in the Red Guards.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not supporting the Cultural Revolution and I think that you are definitely right in stating that the Cultural Revolution was marked by chaos and almost slipped the country into civil war.

Janus
5th August 2006, 01:19
Simply because they are making profit their highest priority, they'll be more profitable than those who don't
Who said anything about profit? Does trade have to cause economic disparity?

Severian
5th August 2006, 12:34
Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 4 2006, 09:52 AM
I was not directly speaking of the GPCR despite receiving inspiration by the CR. I believe we can create another socilaist cultural revolution without the mistakes of the Chinese CR.
That's like saying we should create a socialist apartheid without the "mistakes" of the original South African apartheid. The events I've described were the major content of the Cultural Revolution, not "mistakes".

If you propose something different from the Cultural Revolution...why use the same word? And what are you proposing, then?

The Trotsky quote really doesn't help clarify that and I suspect you've misunderstood it. He's proposing to make use of present-day (bourgeois) science, despite its reactionary "alloy". Obviously the Cultural Revolution preached and practiced the opposite: smashing the accumulated store of human knowledge, aka culture.

Social and cultural progress is only possible by adding to that knowledge. If we see further it is because we are standing on the shoulders of giants, as Isaac Newton said.

This has become a bit of a drift....but it does help show there are certainly different views, I'd suggest opposite views, on how to prevent bureaucratic degeneration. Again, the Cultural Revolution is useful...as a warning to do the opposite. It's interesting to go back and read what Lenin had to say about the importance of raising Russia's cultural level. And consider what Cuba's done in this respect, and is doing now in the "Battle of Ideas."

Severian
5th August 2006, 13:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 04:20 PM

Simply because they are making profit their highest priority, they'll be more profitable than those who don't
Who said anything about profit? Does trade have to cause economic disparity?
Yes, that's what the market does. It increases inequality, aka economic disparity. As Marx explained (concentration of capital, among other things) - and there's plenty of historical experience that shows this.

As for profit, you don't need to say it. If all these communes are deciding things in a decentralized way, one or more will try any likely setup, certainly including profit-seeking which is so familiar. Those will become the richest, and force the others to imitate them.

All these autonomist proposals have the advantage of never having been put in practice - so practice hasn't shown their warts. So they easily seem unblemished compared to the real-world revolutions. All real-world things are flawed.

That's a useful general point here: there are no guarantees in the class struggle. There can be no guarantee of victory for workers over bureaucracy, or anything else. Only reasons to think the conditions are more favorable today, and some things we can learn from the experience of past revolutions.

***

RedHerman....though I said that, and meant it, I think it's overly one-sided by itself. If the need for repression is the only thing we've learned from revolutionary experience, we haven't learned much.

Janus
7th August 2006, 19:14
If you propose something different from the Cultural Revolution...why use the same word? And what are you proposing, then?
I think he means to say that in a revolutionary society, culture and society will be radically changed which means destroying various aspects of the old culture that was dominated by the bourgeois.

I don't think he wants to try to destroy every semblance of the past though.

Janus
7th August 2006, 19:16
As for profit, you don't need to say it. If all these communes are deciding things in a decentralized way, one or more will try any likely setup, certainly including profit-seeking which is so familiar. Those will become the richest, and force the others to imitate them.
But what is the point in trying to make a profit? Communes were created to get away from that aspect.


All these autonomist proposals have the advantage of never having been put in practice - so practice hasn't shown their warts. So they easily seem unblemished compared to the real-world revolutions. All real-world things are flawed.
The proposals are being put into place currently and so far I haven't heard any of the scenarios that you are describing even though they are currently functioning in a captialist dominated society.

Severian
9th August 2006, 12:08
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 10:17 AM

As for profit, you don't need to say it. If all these communes are deciding things in a decentralized way, one or more will try any likely setup, certainly including profit-seeking which is so familiar. Those will become the richest, and force the others to imitate them.
But what is the point in trying to make a profit? Communes were created to get away from that aspect.
I really don't know how to respond to something that naive.



All these autonomist proposals have the advantage of never having been put in practice - so practice hasn't shown their warts. So they easily seem unblemished compared to the real-world revolutions. All real-world things are flawed.
The proposals are being put into place currently and so far I haven't heard any of the scenarios that you are describing even though they are currently functioning in a captialist dominated society.

I'm having similar trouble with this. You're really not aware how co-ops and employee-owned outfits, competing in the market, tend to end up operating just like any other capitalist business - or go under, or both? There's decades of experience with that.

The whole coop idea is not new, so if this was not true....they woulda amounted to something by now. (Well, some have amounted to something...as sizable and successful capitalist businesses.)


I think he means to say that in a revolutionary society, culture and society will be radically changed which means destroying various aspects of the old culture that was dominated by the bourgeois.

I don't think he wants to try to destroy every semblance of the past though.

I don't know if this is mind-reading or if you're stating your own opinion.

Either way, it's a truism which doesn't need any special name. Of course in a revolution worthy of the name, culture is radically changed along with every other aspect of society.

It might help to consider what "culture" means, in the broadest sense: "The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought." or "the integrated pattern of human behavior that includes thought, speech, action, and artifacts and depends upon the human capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations". (from dictionary.com) It ain't just opera, whether Chinese or Western.

Janus
9th August 2006, 12:19
I really don't know how to respond to something that naive.
What do you mean? The whole point of communism is to better the lives of the people the lives of the people rather than making a profit.


You're really not aware how co-ops and employee-owned outfits, competing in the market, tend to end up operating just like any other capitalist business - or go under, or both? There's decades of experience with that.

The whole coop idea is not new, so if this was not true....they woulda amounted to something by now. (Well, some have amounted to something...as sizable and successful capitalist businesses.)
I'm not talking about co-ops or communes in our day and age but a commune as envisioned by anarchists after the revolution.


I don't know if this is mind-reading or if you're stating your own opinion.
No, he expanded on it up above. You should read that before my explanations of his posts.

Comrade-Z
9th August 2006, 22:49
All these autonomist proposals have the advantage of never having been put in practice - so practice hasn't shown their warts. So they easily seem unblemished compared to the real-world revolutions. All real-world things are flawed.

You know, that's actually very possible. Actually, more and more I've been coming to the conclusion that we can be flexible with the precise organizational forms that we use during/after a revolution. We can experiment and see what works. If something other than an autonomist organizational form works, and the revolutionary proletariat approves of where it is taking them, then fine.

What I think is far more important than quibbling over precise organizational forms at this stage is helping to formulate a true revolutionary proletarian consciousness--one that is assertive rather than passive, confident rather than timid, disdainful of authority, per se, as a basis for decision making rather than unthinking followers, sophisticated in their own right rather than having to rely on petty-bourgeois intellectuals or intellectual alphas in the movement, etc. I think if we had this basic proletarian culture, it would be well-nigh impossible for a state-apparatus to entrench itself over the proletariat. Especially if the army was infused with this spirit. The state apparatus would "order" the army to do something, and the army would demand an immediate explanation as to how it benefitted the revolution, and if the explanation didn't make sense, and if it was getting countervailing orders and explanations from the general public that made more sense, then the army wouldn't follow the state's orders. This is to say that we would still not have an institutionalized army or police force, but one that is self-governing, democratic, rotated in and out of the proletariat, and counter-balanced by an armed proletariat.

Severian
10th August 2006, 11:21
Originally posted by Comrade-[email protected] 9 2006, 01:50 PM
What I think is far more important than quibbling over precise organizational forms at this stage is helping to formulate a true revolutionary proletarian consciousness--one that is assertive rather than passive, confident rather than timid, disdainful of authority, per se, as a basis for decision making rather than unthinking followers, sophisticated in their own right rather than having to rely on petty-bourgeois intellectuals or intellectual alphas in the movement, etc. I think if we had this basic proletarian culture, it would be well-nigh impossible for a state-apparatus to entrench itself over the proletariat. Especially if the army was infused with this spirit.
Which makes sense.

No organizational form, institution, law, or constitutional provision is incorruptible. Some are better than others - but any can be misinterpreted into its opposite. Partly that's what I was referring to earlier, with "who decides which groups are counterrevolutionary."

Heck, institutions and constitutions can't even guarantee bourgeois democracy. Iraq has all of those things, but bourgeois democracy? Not the greatest. Bourgeois democracy to be stable needs to be more than words on paper - it has to be supported by the social conditions and the consciousness of the population.

How much more so, then, with the more extensive and real democracy of the working class.

That's a good rule of thumb for almost anything: expanding class consciousness is the most important factor and goal.


The state apparatus would "order" the army to do something, and the army would demand an immediate explanation as to how it benefitted the revolution, and if the explanation didn't make sense, and if it was getting countervailing orders and explanations from the general public that made more sense, then the army wouldn't follow the state's orders. This is to say that we would still not have an institutionalized army or police force, but one that is self-governing, democratic, rotated in and out of the proletariat, and counter-balanced by an armed proletariat.

I'm guessing your intent here is to say that revolutionary soldiers shouldn't gun down the masses just because they're ordered to. If so, I agree.

But I do have to point out the literal meaning of "self-governing army" is the same as "military dictatorship." Or, often historically, "unusually large group of pillaging bandits."

bcbm
10th August 2006, 13:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 02:19 AM
Which necessarily leads to market relations between these autonomous councils. If two or three decide to do that, they'll outcompete those who don't.
Outcompete? Why would the other be competing to begin with?


Simply because they are making profit their highest priority, they'll be more profitable than those who don't.

Well considering I wouldn't include any idea of "profit" or "money" in what I am proposing, I don't see how this would matter. What good is profit and trying to "sell" your products if nobody gives a shit and can get what they need elsewhere?


Since the "means of production" are in their hands, not the bad centralized state (if there is one), this necessarily will lead towards increasing inequality and eventually the restoration of capitalism. (At first as "employee-owned" corporations like United Airlines in the U.S.)

(I disagree, but) Unlike..?


All these autonomist proposals have the advantage of never having been put in practice - so practice hasn't shown their warts. So they easily seem unblemished compared to the real-world revolutions. All real-world things are flawed.

Worker's councils, et al have been put in practice all over the world. They generally end up crushed, but I don't think that is inevitable.


I'm having similar trouble with this. You're really not aware how co-ops and employee-owned outfits, competing in the market, tend to end up operating just like any other capitalist business - or go under, or both? There's decades of experience with that.

The whole coop idea is not new, so if this was not true....they woulda amounted to something by now. (Well, some have amounted to something...as sizable and successful capitalist businesses.)

Of course they'll end up like this: in a capitalist market! But that doesn't mean they have no promise outside of a market. Workers controlling the means of production (which is actually quite rare) is not a bad idea, it just doesn't produce the desired results under capitalism.


Actually, more and more I've been coming to the conclusion that we can be flexible with the precise organizational forms that we use during/after a revolution. We can experiment and see what works. If something other than an autonomist organizational form works, and the revolutionary proletariat approves of where it is taking them, then fine.

I agree entirely. Anything I've been proposing is just that: a proposal. The real forms of organization and struggle will be determined by the proletariat during and after the revolution, not by theorists before, during or after.

LuĂ­s Henrique
5th February 2007, 12:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 04, 2006 01:05 am
Cuba was always relatively richer than other Latin American nations. It's standards of living historically was on a par with those in places like Argentina and even Italy. Cuba saw immigration from places like Spain in the 1930.
Brazil saw immigration from places like Italy, Germany, and Japan, in the XIX century, and beggining of the XX.

And, no, we hadn't an economy comparable to any of those nations!

Where does this tale about Cuban economy being comparable to Italy stem from? Italy has consistently been an imperialist country from its very unification about 1870; even before that, some of its constituent parts - Florence, Genoa, Veneza - have been rich - and economically independent - regions from the middle ages on.

Cuba was a hell hole.

Luís Henrique

Cryotank Screams
5th February 2007, 13:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2006 03:01 pm
stalinist nightmare?
As a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist don't you view Stalin, as the last Socialist and revolutionary leader of the USSR? Why then would you refer to his reign as a nightmare, when holding this view?

As to the party, I think (this being speculation now) modern Communists, would see the egoism, the corruption and stagnation, and degradation, and work to be more goal oriented, instead of competing for power within the vanguard, and building up cults of personality, and party propaganda, and work to reduce in party rivalry, so as to achieve maximum party efficiency.

Vargha Poralli
5th February 2007, 14:11
Originally posted by Cryotank Screams+February 05, 2007 07:21 pm--> (Cryotank Screams @ February 05, 2007 07:21 pm)
[email protected] 29, 2006 03:01 pm
stalinist nightmare?
As a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist don't you view Stalin, as the last Socialist and revolutionary leader of the USSR? Why then would you refer to his reign as a nightmare, when holding this view?
[/b]
This thread is quite old and at that time LeftyHenry had been a Trotskyist so that question is totally irrelevant now.