Did anyone here ever visited the USSR? - Journeying to the h

[CubanFox]

Have any of you?

Ever visited the empty stores?

The Intourist men sweeping anything negative under the carpet so tourists don't see it?

The KGB bumping off those that criticized the Soviet Union?

The horrors of Stalinism at work?

If any of you have, please describe your experiences.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I went when I was 8 (with my brother who was 20).

It was during Gorbachev rule in 1990. So what? A year before collapse. It wasn't really USSR in it's heydey therefore!

Can't remember much relevant. There was A LOT of police around. The place felt uneasy. We were in St. Petersburg for the majority. Bit of a mess to be honest. My brother was there viewing the USSR as it was facing inevitable collapse. And I went with him as our parents recommended it because they were working all the time and it cost peanuts for me to go.

It was cold, uneasy, messy and dim. Not many people about. We did visist Moscow which was a bit cooler. Obviously I wasn't thinking politics then so the buildings fascinated me! As did the snow. I thought it was strange that people weren't playing around in it! Communist ideology? No snow playing!

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I did manage to buy a Lenin badge which I've worn on my sixth form tie for the last two years. And a HUGE map of Europe with a big picture of Lenin in the corner. Well, my brother bought that but I've got it now.

We both got a set of those cool Russian doll set things. You know? When they get bigger and bigger and are inside eachother. I didn't have clue why we were buying them but he encouraged me to keep it anyway. Got all the communist leaders. Lenin the smallest! Then up in size in chronological order

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 2:59 pm on June 8, 2003
I went when I was 8 (with my brother who was 20).

It was during Gorbachev rule in 1990. So what? A year before collapse. It wasn't really USSR in it's heydey therefore!

Can't remember much relevant. There was A LOT of police around. The place felt uneasy. We were in St. Petersburg for the majority. Bit of a mess to be honest. My brother was there viewing the USSR as it was facing inevitable collapse. And I went with him as our parents recommended it because they were working all the time and it cost peanuts for me to go.

It was cold, uneasy, messy and dim. Not many people about. We did visist Moscow which was a bit cooler. Obviously I wasn't thinking politics then so the buildings fascinated me! As did the snow. I thought it was strange that people weren't playing around in it! Communist ideology? No snow playing!


but what about all the horrors??

just kidding

[Sensitive]

Shrug, well according to my relatives that lived there, the Soviet Union was much better for them economically than the current "Russian Federation"...

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Sounds like upper echelon folk.

[Cassius Clay]

You forget one thing USSR was Capitalist just like the U$A after 1956. It wasn't the open 'free' Capitalist system that reigns today and it did have alot of 'Socialist' benefits to it's society but never the less it had massive inequalities and workers had been reduced to mere wage-slaves again while managers and officials could get away with what they wanted.

NOT 'Stalinist'.

I spoke to a Latvian women a few weeks ago who lived in the USSR up until the early 1990's and she wanted it back, 'with a few reforms' so perhaps you should ask the people who actually grew up there. As for empty stores, 11 million Russians have died since 1990 because they haven't enough food. In USSR and especially during Stalin's time the population's life expectancy doubled. It's well known fact Brezhneve was and could be ridiculed by just about everyone without any fear of the cops coming around. And atleast during 'Stalinism' I'm not aware of the Special forces and foriegn mercaneries massacring hundreds of democraticly elected leaders and there working class supporters as happened in 1993.

[James]

erm... what happened in 1993?

[RedComrade]

Quote: from Cassius Clay on 1:42 pm on June 9, 2003
You forget one thing USSR was Capitalist just like the U$A after 1956. It wasn't the open 'free' Capitalist system that reigns today and it did have alot of 'Socialist' benefits to it's society but never the less it had massive inequalities and workers had been reduced to mere wage-slaves again while managers and officials could get away with what they wanted.

NOT 'Stalinist'.

I spoke to a Latvian women a few weeks ago who lived in the USSR up until the early 1990's and she wanted it back, 'with a few reforms' so perhaps you should ask the people who actually grew up there. As for empty stores, 11 million Russians have died since 1990 because they haven't enough food. In USSR and especially during Stalin's time the population's life expectancy doubled. It's well known fact Brezhneve was and could be ridiculed by just about everyone without any fear of the cops coming around. And atleast during 'Stalinism' I'm not aware of the Special forces and foriegn mercaneries massacring hundreds of democraticly elected leaders and there working class supporters as happened in 1993.


What is your definition of socialism comrade?

[sc4r]

Yes when I was about 15. That would be 190 /71.

I visited Leningrad for about 10 days. I didn't take part in any of the organised tours just hapoily pottered around the city.

I cant say it was actually any different from a potter around any city . It was foreign of course, but not noticeably poorer or shabbier of any more organised than anywhere else.

There was a throiving black market in Chewing Gum and western fags which I took advantage of, and also one in blue jeans (which not having any with me I could not).

There were touts loitering around the horal looking to sell 'genuine' red army hats , buckles etc. And these got routinely moved on by the polis, but thats about all.

The intourist guides were quite pushy about trying to get you to come on the tours. But not as heavy as the ones in Any western tourist venue currently are. In fact they behaved exactly like tourist guides always do.

If you are asking did it stink of oppression and poverty the anser is no. It felt almost exactly like being back at home except that their were more military on the streets (it was an army town after all) and the cops looked a bit more heavily armed (just as the paris cops did when I visited there a year before).

But of course that was Leningrad, what the lest tourist orientated places looked like I dunno.



(Edited by sc4r at 5:19 pm on June 9, 2003)

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Should this not be in HISTORY?

Or at least definately not POLITICS

[Kez]

i went to armenia in 1992.
fuckin shithole

short electricity, little fuel coz of war, food was adequate

now the capital is getting better, but outside is still a shithole, but with no communist alternative what u gonna do?

[Sensitive]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 6:07 pm on June 8, 2003
Sounds like upper echelon folk.
No, in fact I don't even think they were ever Party members (although I could be wrong).

I just meant they had better access to food, clothing, housing, etc under the Soviet Union, compared to the Russian Federation.

[Cassius Clay]

SC4 makes a good point. We can't really tell what it was like unless we lived there and experienced it day by day. It's like North Korea today, the only one's saying it's a living hell are the Americans while the only ones saying it's paradise on Earth are the Juche officials. So make up your own mind.

Redcomrade. My definition of Socialism would be where the workers are not wage-slaves and mere commodities for starters. This was what Khrushev, Brezhneve and Kosgiyn introduced.

James here's a account of what happened in 1993.

A FIRST-HAND ACCOUNT OF YELTSIN'S OCTOBER MASSACRE

By Bill Doares

There seems to be a rift in Washington and on Wall Street about
policy toward Russia.

As U.S. corporations grow impatient to make profits off the labor
of workers in the former USSR, the Republicans call for a "tough
approach" to the Yeltsin regime. The White House, on the other
hand, fearing popular resistance to the restoration of
capitalism, wants to give Yeltsin and his cohorts "room to
maneuver."

Richard Nixon has even been dispatched to Moscow in a transparent
effort by the U.S. government to woo some of Yeltsin's opponents.
But, as former political prisoner Victor Anpilov of the Russian
Communist Workers Party (RKRP) told Workers World, "The struggle
in Russia is much deeper than it seems to the Clinton
administration. Capitalism cannot be imposed on our country
merely by maneuvers at the top with Yeltsin, Gaidar, etc. The
obstacle is the opposition of the great masses of working people,
and their movement is just beginning."

Whatever their differences, Washington and Wall Street are united
in their desire to crush the anti-capitalist movement in the
former USSR. They all cheered last October when Yeltsin ordered a
military assault on Russia's elected Parliament and the
coldblooded slaughter of hundreds of unarmed protesters.

And they all took part in the coverup that followed. Clinton
called the October massacre a "triumph for democracy." Time
magazine called the workers murdered by Yeltsin a "ragtag mob of
hooligans and extremists." And nowhere in the U.S. media did the
true story or the real death toll appear.

In February, Workers World went to Russia, where we spoke to
workers and activists who participated in the October events.
Among them was Vladimir Zapolsky, 37, a construction worker from
the Udmurt Republic in the Ural mountains. He is a member of the
RKRP.

When Yeltsin's tanks attacked Parliament Zapolsky was critically
wounded and lost his right arm. WW interviewed him in Leningrad,
where he was undergoing medical treatment. This is his story.

----------------------------------

I am from the city of Izhek. I am a worker, a crane operator. I
work in housing construction. I am married and have two children,
a girl, 13, and a boy, 11.

In October, I heard that Yeltsin had imposed a siege on the
parliament. I felt it was an unconstitutional coup. Yeltsin had
no right to dissolve the parliament. Like many others, I decided
to go to Moscow to defend the constitution.

In Moscow, we could not get near the House of Soviets, so we went
to Capital Square for a rally. But the square was blockaded by
OMON [Yeltsin's special police]. When the crowd got larger, the
police attacked us. For the first time I saw people beaten with
clubs. It was a horrible experience. I had never before witnessed
such brutality.

We regrouped for a march to parliament. Our column grew to tens
of thousands of people. OMON attacked us with clubs and toxic gas
but we broke their line. Many people were hurt on our side. When
we reached the White House the OMON fled. I decided to stay and
help protect the House of Soviets.

All night long we stood outside the parliament building. In the
morning Yeltsin's troops attacked with tanks and armored
personnel carriers. They opened fire with machine guns on the
thousands of unarmed people massed outside.

We tried to take cover but they were shooting at us from a
distance of 20 meters. I was hit when the column of armored
personnel carriers broke through the cordon of defenders. The
bullet broke my arm and penetrated into my right lung. I lay
there for several minutes watching people being shot point-blank
as they lay on the ground. Then I passed out.

When I awoke I was being carried by four comrades. I was taken
inside the parliament building. They took off my shirt and tried
to give first aid to me and the other wounded. But ambulances
couldn't get through because of heavy gunfire from the tanks and
APCs. Finally the defenders inside the White House got hold of
some trucks and carried some of the wounded to a hospital.

In the hospital, I saw many people who had been wounded at the
House of Soviets, many different kinds of wounds. Yeltsin's claim
that only 140 people killed is ludicrous.

Over 1,000 people were massed in front of the parliament. The
majority were killed or wounded by automatic fire from the APCs.
The distance between the APCs and the people was so short that
they couldn't miss. There were also snipers shooting at us with
rifles.

At the hospital I again fell unconscious. When I came to, I had
had two operations. The doctors were trying hard to save my life.
I had lost 32 percent of my blood.

A week later my arm was amputated and my chest was opened for a
lung operation. I have liver problems because of all the
medication. I am now being treated at the Leningrad Institute for
Orthopedic Surgery. I am in a lot of pain, but I feel some
progress.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, the conditions of ordinary
people in our country have deteriorated dramatically. Price
increases have destroyed our living standards.

In 1980 when I got married I bought a television, a refrigerator,
furniture--all the things needed for normal life. Today I would
not be able to afford any of these things.

It used to be a simple matter for my family and me to take a
vacation on the Black Sea. Now, it's not affordable to us. It is
not accidental that the death rate in our country has now
surpassed the birth rate. It is the result of Yeltsin's
capitalist policies. Now this regime has shot unarmed people in
cold blood.

The truth must be told because there is much false information
about these events in our country and in yours. The media in both
countries is controlled by the regime and the capitalist forces.
But practically everyone here now realizes what the Yeltsin
regime is doing. I hope that the opposition will consolidate and
this anti-people regime will soon be driven from power.''

[Urban Rubble]

WOW, tha was pretty amazing. Does anyone have a site that I can read about all this ? Mostly the October Massacare and the events leading to it ?

[Sensitive]

Quote: from Urban Rubble on 2:42 pm on June 9, 2003
WOW, tha was pretty amazing. Does anyone have a site that I can read about all this ? Mostly the October Massacare and the events leading to it ?Here are links to several articles written by Sam Marcy (Workers World Party founder) as these events in Russia unfolded:

The crisis in Russia (Oct 14, 1993) (http://www.workers.org/marcy/cd/sam93/1993html/s931014.htm)

Yeltsin's dilemma and the Russian working class (Oct. 21, 1993) (http://www.workers.org/marcy/cd/sam93/1993html/s931021a.htm)

Russia & China (Nov. 18, 1993) (http://www.workers.org/marcy/cd/sam93/1993html/s931118.htm)

[RedComrade]

Thats a tad bit vague comrade, saying what it is not is hardly a clear definition of what socialism is to you. Most people define socialism in its broadest sense as an economic system in which the means of production are the property of the state or society. Do you disagree with this definition? if you do not disagree would you please state whether or not you beleive the USSR met those requirements.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

I lived in the USSR (Moscow, Tashkent and Kiev) and was born in Moscow.

Life in the USSR wasn't bad at al, the "average worker" could afford a whole lot of basic needs and also luxeries, they could go for cheap vacations inside the Soviet Union, because transportation was cheap and drove on time. Taking a vacation was very easy.

My parents often went to the Black Sea, East of the SU, daytrips to Kiev and other large cities such as Stalingrad and even the Bolsjoj Theatre.

I even went to the Mausoleum and I saw Lenin's body, altough I can't remember it.

But for tourists from other countries, it was expensiver, because products and services costed for Soviets much less than for tourists from abroad.

Everyone could afford a home, which was very cheap to rent/buy, new clothes and food. To the opposite of now. No, you can consider yourself happy with a house or even some food.

Everything was very cheap and some people could even afford a car.

But to prevent that someone could spent money made in the crime life, you had to say and proof were you had made the money to par example buy a car.

In every neighboorhood there was always some sort of medical facility, a school (our school even had a small swimmingpool), playground and accomodation.

The streets were clean, the education was one of the best, ambulances could arrive at our home in 10 minutes. Students were also pretty disciplined and we learned at a very young age cleaning, making up your bed, needlework and much more.

But enough, on the other hand. I don't agree with all the policies of the USSR. It was in my eyes much too authoritian.

[jjack]

It sounds like CubanFox is fishing for a horror story...one which, so far, he hasn't gotten.

Just the other day I was looking at a book about the USSR, from the Library of Nations series put out by Time Life. This book is hardly communist propaganda, but it does have some pictures that I thought were really interesting.

It shows a few pictures of grocery stores and sidewalk shops. According to the book, the stores were stocked quite well. The caption on one picture read, "Food is available in ample quantities; one result is a generation two or three inches taller than the parents."

The picture that really struck me, though, was a photo of a woman preparing lunch, which consisted of sliced roast, vegetables, sausage, bread, and caviar. The caption read, "Caviar is hardly everyday fare, but sunday dinner at home commonly includes five meat and vegetable dishes, plus three kinds of bread."

Say what you will about the USSR, but the only images of "empty stores" i've seen are those of what remained after its collapse.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Quote: from CubanFox on 5:42 pm on June 8, 2003
Have any of you?

Ever visited the empty stores?

The Intourist men sweeping anything negative under the carpet so tourists don't see it?

The KGB bumping off those that criticized the Soviet Union?

The horrors of Stalinism at work?

If any of you have, please describe your experiences.



Here we go again Cassius. It amazes me how our comrades on this board still critisise Stalin with no actual proof. I openly invite any and all of our anti-Stalin comrades to provide any substantial fact to support your erroneous opinions.

[RedComrade]

I'm quite stunned that one of our more intelligent and experienced members such as Cassius has been incapable of rendering a clear definition of his own ideology. Perhaps you should spend a tad bit less time studying the glory of Josef Stalin and a bit more time reading the true founder and uniting figure in the socialist movement Karl Marx. I ask you once again do you disagree with my previous definition definition? if you do not disagree would you please state whether or not you beleive the USSR under Kruschev met those requirements.

[oki]

I went to eastbirlin when i was 15(32 now) and well,the things that stuck in my mind were cheap good beer,very bad food(meat that was acually fat,red cabbage..)very dissiplined people,clean streets,no adds,the wall ofcourse (that made the west seem like a prison,not the east)and the rediculous contrast with twest berlin, junkies sceemoing lights bars wealth poverty dirtyness unsafe streets........

but I was allso glad to be able to leave the east.unlike eastgermans.they had to wait 15 jears for a car(trabant,with a motor like a moped)

never been to russia.

[Cassius Clay]

Quote: from RedComrade on 6:41 pm on June 12, 2003
I'm quite stunned that one of our more intelligent and experienced members such as Cassius has been incapable of rendering a clear definition of his own ideology. Perhaps you should spend a tad bit less time studying the glory of Josef Stalin and a bit more time reading the true founder and uniting figure in the socialist movement Karl Marx. I ask you once again do you disagree with my previous definition definition? if you do not disagree would you please state whether or not you beleive the USSR under Kruschev met those requirements.


Redcomrade, yes I do agree with your statement of what Socialism is and I don't think 'Khrushchev met those requirements', instead of asking me though you should really ask Khruschev himself. A couple of points though, I've actually for once been busy over the last couple of days with exams and a social life.

[Cassius Clay]

Oh yes and I have read the Communist Manifesto, infact I've got two copies of it for some unknown reason. Unfournatly I haven't got my hands on Das Kapital yet because it's so dam expensive (17.99 pounds) but when I get a job in the summer it's the first thing I'll get.

[RedComrade]

No need to pay for it here is a free copy comrade:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works...67-c1/index.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/index.htm)