An Internation Revolutionary Army

[loveme4whoiam]

I've been slowly learning about Che Guervara for a long time - it was that search for information that led me to RevLeft in fact. While I still know very little - I did say slowly learning :P - about Che's politics, I have read that one of his visions was for the formation of an "International Revolutionary Army" which would operate in Latin America, and successively break the US hold on South America once and for all. A noble ambition certainly, but is it a feasible one?

I am by interest and profession a student of military history, so this question interests me a great deal. The historical precedents for such a force are few (at least, those that I know of), the only one that I can think of off the top of my head being the International Brigades of the Spanish Civil War, and these were broken up at the end of that conflict.

So do you think that nowadays a multinational force, necessarilly guerrilla in its tactics and agrarian in its objectives, without the backing of any soverign nation, could accomplish anything of substance?

[Janus]

I suppose that Guevara wanted to follow in the steps of Bolivar.

But if an actual revolution broke out, I doubt that it could be possible to form one huge international army and move it around everywhere. It would be best if the people in their own area fight for what they believe in rather than depend on others. Besides, the logistics and planning neccessary would be mind-boggling and probably unfeasible.

[Delta]

I think that the majority of the revolution will occur on a more local level, especially at first. However, coordination and working together should work on an international level, but as to moving armies around I think that would be infeasible. Capitalist countries would likely be able to easily sink revolutionary ships and planes at the beginning of the revolution, and not until we had a good hold on a first-world, industrialized country would we be able to combat them in this respect.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Che called for the creation of an "International Proletarian Army".. which is basically what the guerrilla army (ELN) in Bolivia was.. The plan was, as the army grew, sections of it would break off and iniate similar struggles in countries bordering Bolivia.

I would go as far as to say that it is not only feasible, but necessary.

The FPM is putting out a book about this next month.. It will be available online, and I think it's a very important read.

[Delta]

Originally posted by Lennie [email protected] 26 2006, 01:33 PM
The plan was, as the army grew, sections of it would break off and iniate similar struggles in countries bordering Bolivia.

Yes, I think continental armies are possible and important, I just don't see how the army would safely be able to be transported between continents (at least at the beginning).

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

That's never what Che proposed.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Here's what he said:

" ... They are pushing us into this struggle; there is no alternative: we must prepare it and we must decide to undertake it.

"The beginnings will not be easy; they shall be extremely difficult. All the oligarchies' powers of repression, all their capacity for brutality and demagoguery will be placed at the service of their cause. Our mission, in the first hour, shall be to survive; later, we shall follow the perennial example of the guerrilla, carrying out armed propaganda (in the Vietnamese sense, that is, the bullets of propaganda, of the battles won or lost — but fought — against the enemy). The great lesson of the invincibility of the guerrillas taking root in the dispossessed masses. The galvanizing of the national spirit, the preparation for harder tasks, for resisting even more violent repressions. Hatred as an element of the struggle; a relentless hatred of the enemy, impelling us over and beyond the natural limitations that man is heir to and transforming him into an effective, violent, selective and cold killing machine. Our soldiers must be thus; a people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy.

"We must carry the war into every corner the enemy happens to carry it: to his home, to his centers of entertainment; a total war. It is necessary to prevent him from having a moment of peace, a quiet moment outside his barracks or even inside; we must attack him wherever he may be; make him feel like a cornered beast wherever he may move. Then his moral fiber shall begin to decline. He will even become more beastly, but we shall notice how the signs of decadence begin to appear.

"And let us develop a true proletarian internationalism; with international proletarian armies; the flag under which we fight would be the sacred cause of redeeming humanity. To die under the flag of Vietnam, of Venezuela, of Guatemala, of Laos, of Guinea, of Colombia, of Bolivia, of Brazil — to name only a few scenes of today's armed struggle — would be equally glorious and desirable for an American, an Asian, an African, even a European.

"Each spilt drop of blood, in any country under whose flag one has not been born, is an experience passed on to those who survive, to be added later to the liberation struggle of his own country. And each nation liberated is a phase won in the battle for the liberation of one's own country."

http://freepeoplesmovement.org/fpm/page.php?146

[loveme4whoiam]

I guess my question was a bit misleading, since I said "without the backing of a soverign country". Obviously, once the first successful revolution is carried out that country will be, one can only assume, in total support of a revolutionary army.


Originally posted by Delta+--> (Delta) Yes, I think continental armies are possible and important, I just don't see how the army would safely be able to be transported between continents (at least at the beginning).[/b]
Indeed, I doubt this could happen. But then again, would it need to? Taking the ideal guerrilla locale, South America: to revolutionise the entire continent would be the biggest blow to bourgeousie capitalism and imperialism since its foundation, and not a sea or ocean need be crossed.


Lennie Jusche
Che called for the creation of an "International Proletarian Army".. which is basically what the guerrilla army (ELN) in Bolivia was.. The plan was, as the army grew, sections of it would break off and iniate similar struggles in countries bordering Bolivia.

I would go as far as to say that it is not only feasible, but necessary.
That is what I had envisioned when I read those parts of the Message. Everything he says in that is true - if the workers of, say, Austria rise up, and succeed, how long would it be before other parts of Europe did the same, especially with these revolutionary sections there to organise and aid them.

[RevSouth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 10:07 AM
The historical precedents for such a force are few (at least, those that I know of), the only one that I can think of off the top of my head being the International Brigades of the Spanish Civil War, and these were broken up at the end of that conflict.
You've got to remember, the International Brigades were not an army that moved about internationally, but a force made up of International forces. They met up in France not to move about Europe liberating people, but to fight the fascists in Spain.

[loveme4whoiam]

Thank you fysh117, interesting contribution.

Good point RedSouth - I only brought them up as an example of international forces working together for a single aim; mainly because I'm not aware of any other examples of this and I wanted to mention at least one historical precedent :D

[violencia.Proletariat]

Why do so many people on this board have a "guerilla" fetish? ;)

[loveme4whoiam]

It's the crawling through jungles... it brings out the beast in me :P

[RevSouth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 05:21 AM
Good point RedSouth - I only brought them up as an example of international forces working together for a single aim; mainly because I'm not aware of any other examples of this and I wanted to mention at least one historical precedent :D
I figured you already knew what I was saying, I was just clearing it up for the casual reader. Those poor uninformed masses. :P

Plus guerilla fetishes are cool. And combat boot fetishes and seaplane fetishes.

[Rollo]

I remember as a kid I used to crawl through the small rainforest near my house dressed in full camo and we used to play capture the flag and stuff like that. It's those little things that stick with me.

[LoneRed]

putting che's ideas on south america aside, I think that even beginning to start an "international revolutionary army" is too big a concept for the present. Firstly it would be an armed force, which means that it would operate underground or else it wouldnt be in existence, to have an international force, "underground" isnt something that currently we should try to create, in the present we should try to create workingmens militias, like the ICA in Ireland is a good historical example. to start off by saying international, gets us in muddy water.

Rick

[redhmong]

That is a good ideal. But it's very difficult. Socialist revolution firstly is nationalism. Only more 'socialism countries' appearing, to buliding a 'international army' is feasible. And weather the masses welcome it is very important. If they think the army is the aggressor, it was destined to fail.

Presently, I don't think the army is feasible. But supporting the weapon struggling over the earth and guerrillas in different countries cooperating with each other is a feasible method, just as the NPC(M) and CPI(M) in south asian.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 09:07 AM
The historical precedents for such a force are few (at least, those that I know of),
I can give you a few.

The South American wars of independence, for a rather large one Guevara mentions often.

The French revolutionary and Napoleonic armies, which waged war on feudalism from Spain to Moscow. Expeditions into Canada in the North American War of Independence and the War of 1812. The Red Army in Poland, Mongolia, Khiva, Bokhara, northern Persia....Cuban volunteers in Angola, Ethiopia, Guinea-Bissau, etc. etc........

German revolutionary armies in 1848 and maybe some other revolutions didn't necessarily respect the many little state boundaries of the time - though maybe they did too often. Engels asserted a major reason for the defeat of the earlier German peasant wars is that they failed to link up across the different princedoms.

All of these count on not just an invading "foreign army", but on cooperation between "foreign" and local revolutionaries. Which developed to different degrees in different situations.

I'm not sure why you stipulated "without the support of any sovereign state" - even Guevara's attempt definitely received plenty of Cuban help. In any case, the actual realization of the "international army of the proletariat" depends on the development of the revolution, and success in taking power, in different countries.

It's an essential strategic concept for the long run, IMO; the enemy isn't shy about cooperating across borders whenever they can submerge their conflicts of interest.

[sri]

I don't think, this is the time to think about an international revolutionary army.It's just an utopia and wasting of time.This is the time to think,plan and excute the line of organising working class and it,s allies in their class and mass democratic struggles and building up and strengthening their organisations including vanagaurd on the sound basis of revolutionary ideology and politics.

[loveme4whoiam]

The French revolutionary and Napoleonic armies, which waged war on feudalism from Spain to Moscow.
Why the devil didn't I think of that? It's my specialist subject in military history - doh! :wacko:


All of these count on not just an invading "foreign army", but on cooperation between "foreign" and local revolutionaries. Which developed to different degrees in different situations.

I'm not sure why you stipulated "without the support of any sovereign state" - even Guevara's attempt definitely received plenty of Cuban help. In any case, the actual realization of the "international army of the proletariat" depends on the development of the revolution, and success in taking power, in different countries.
Indeed, I screwed up a bit with that addendum to the statement. I guess I was thinking that the group would be operating in hostile territory for much of its time; that is, hostile territory as Guevara defined it. But then I suppose if the international army did have the support of the populace of a country, it would be under less threat of attack; and if they didn't have support of the populace, then they shouldn't be there in the first place. My apologies for not thinking through the original question; its all a learning exerience after all.


I don't think, this is the time to think about an international revolutionary army.It's just an utopia and wasting of time.This is the time to think,plan and excute the line of organising working class and it,s allies in their class and mass democratic struggles and building up and strengthening their organisations including vanagaurd on the sound basis of revolutionary ideology and politics.
Indeed, I'm not saying that right now this very day is the right time for such an armed group to appear. But international organisations which have education and inspiration of class consciousness as their foremost aims can certainly prepare the way for this proletarian army, and their time is certainly now.

[Janus]

As long as there is no total substitutionism i.e. the army fights the battles for the people rather than the people doing it themselves, I don't see why not.

Also, an international army may pose problems in command...

[RNK]

I had an idea awhile back about a "Communist Foreign Legion". Akin to the French Foreign Legion, it would be an organization dedicated to training, equipping and forming a (relatively) small combat-oriented group that would have secondary functions as "unofficial" peacekeepers and humanitarian activists. Whereas the UN, NATO and the world's superpowers act as (false) outlets for humanitarian aid relief, peacekeeping and combat, this "Foreign Legion", or better yet "Foreign Brigade", would do the same; the only difference being that it would do so without capitalist and imperialist agendas hiding in the shadows behind every deployment or action.

Anyway, it may be only a pipedream but I believe if enough Comrades can come together with some sort of financial backing it would be possible. Obviously it would immediately be branded a terrorist organization, but that's just the world we live in (and are trying to change). It would probably be housed in some forlorn South American or African country such as Bolivia, Venezuela or even Cuba. Like the FFL it would have a headquarters, training grounds, as well as legitimate "front" organizations for funding and humanitarian efforts.

Maybe a pipedream...

...but if anyone's interested in trying to make this happen, PM me. ;)

[Janus]

Why are you posting this on a public forum?

[Whitten]

Why not? What bad could come from posting it here?

[Janus]

Not much except that this board is monitored.

Also, this is a discussion forum and it's doubtful one will find many recruits for expeditions.

[RNK]

Why shouldn't I? Why should I hide my allegience and my beliefs in fear of retribution? If they want to come for me, let them come. I'm not going to idle away in inactivity. Cowards do not get anywhere.

[subcal]

I've always thought that the logistical problems in supporting something internationally are a little bit much without a 'host' nation. Libya and the likes would have been great, gone are the days of hiding behind the iron curtain and launching small vanguard operators to locate, train and operate internaitonally.

I still think that small bands of revolutionaries, privately equipped and trained pose the greatest risk to the government. Once they are operating effectively linking up as part of a network is achiveable. I think in the inception days the only way to avoid being infiltrated is to avoid a large network.

Sure its going to be hard to equip, train and operate in the beginning but you are going to do it with the knowledge of achievement. It was written in a nice little book that 'everyday the operation' and guerilla's that wake up in the morning are beating the government.

Every weapon, round of ammunition, bit of equipment and day alive is a victory against the government, if your reading this then your winning the fight in some fashion because your networking and (hopefully) learning more.

Internationally 'linked' revolutionists to be a seperate case study, surely all of us have friends overseas who support us in some way, shape or form. Even if its just getting books mailed over that we can't find locally.

[Janus]

Why shouldn't I? Why should I hide my allegience and my beliefs in fear of retribution? If they want to come for me, let them come.
OK. The problem is that it may also be a liability for the board.

[Whitten]

So could posting pictures of known fascistst.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

This is quite a bit worse. There is, of course, no problem with being active, and I applaud your courage, but please do not post it here, the board might get shut down and that is something I do not wish to see happen.

[Marion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 01:38 PM
Why do so many people on this board have a "guerilla" fetish? ;)
Totally agree - it might seem quite cool to read or fantasise about, but for the vast majority of people on these boards it is almost completely irrelevant to the situation they live in.

[Janus]

So could posting pictures of known fascistst.
Not really and where has that been done here?

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 11:38 AM

So could posting pictures of known fascistst.
Not really and where has that been done here?
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=50708

[Janus]

Oh, I thought he was talking about famous fascists or something.

I don't really see it as much of a legal liability though.