Divisiveness Of The Anti-religious

[Dean]

How can we, as communists, expect to develop any prominence when such purism is directed at a single entity?

I was genuinely surprised to see that these forums were so anti-religious. Throughout my life I have undergone many changes in my beliefs, and have generally concluded that there is no god. However, I have witnessed amazing things done by people who were very religious, or even based their morality on religion.

I once commented to my friend's father, whose family is very religious, that they were not only the most Christian people that I have met, but also that in their ideology and morals they were basically secular humanists. He appreciated the comment, because he embraced secular humanists in the same sense that a socialist might embrace a communist.

Now I do not deny that God is a myth, nor that a belief in a god creates an inherant flaw in one's ideology. However, many proponents of communism and socialism have been religious. Hugo Chavez often says religious things in his speeches. Oscar Romero was a great proponent and martyr for Liberation Theology. Salvador Allende was also religious, I believe.

As I have mentioned in other posts, the tradition of early Christianity was one of communism. Some believe Moses to be the first known communist, in fact. Most major religions have phrases that mirror "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" - something that appears to describe the core of a communist mindset. I have recently grown more interested in the New Testament, because it contains so much antagonism of authority, and often deeper equality as I have even seen expressed here.

These people did great things, and there are religious organizations and individuals who still strive for the freedom and equality of all people. There are organizations such as the catholic church which are clearly antagonistic towards these aims, but even they change with the current of time. To oppose religion in general is not necessarily bad, but to be so divisive that it becomes implied that one cannot be religious and be a communist is ludicrous. Communism is an ideology of freedom, but logic ascertains that completely free will is an impossible thing to expect. To expect every communist to be perfect to the point that there is no room for personal flaw is unfair. We must learn to fight power, but to be careful and tactful when we attempt to fight power that people make an internal affair. To excercise social authority over those who are a slave to a god is to reaffirm their belief, and further alienate our cause from that of the common man.

[Eleutherios]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 05:42 AM
As I have mentioned in other posts, the tradition of early Christianity was one of communism. Some believe Moses to be the first known communist, in fact.
Moses a communist? Read Exodus 21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd021.html) (the chapter after the Ten Commandments) and get back to me about that one.

[Delta]

I agree with you that we should be welcoming of those who are religious, and not "root them out". But I am certainly not neutral on the issue. It is better to have a grip on reality than to believe in some magic sky daddy and go to the local church and talk to the Lord of the Universe through your pastor. It is better for people to actually make a difference in their lives if they face problems, and not simply sit around and pray about it. It's better for people to spend resources on taking care of the needs of real people, and not buildling temples for gods. I have no doubt that you agree with this.

Having said that, yes, I think it's a bad idea to say that people who are religious cannot be communists. Some people cling to labeling themselves as "religious" even though all their actions are based on secular reasoning. These are good people, they just lack the ability for whatever reason to shrug off religion. On the other hand, if you are very actively religious, as in an evangelical, then no, you cannot be a communist. Too many fascist characteristics.

Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things -- that takes religion

---Steven Weinberg

[Free Left]

I was brought up in a Catholic family and I remember when I still believed in "God", feeling a great sense of comfort whenever I was in times of great stress, sorrow or fear, thinking that there was someone was watching over me and protecting me. Someone I could "pray" to asking for help etc. Whenever I did pray I felt better, it was almost like a placebo.
Now, when I'm 99% sure that a "God" does not exist, I can see why some people beleive in their religion it gives them (false) comfort and a feeling of safety.
Ignorance is bliss would probably be the best way to descibe religion.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Good grief Dean, how much religious ass are you willing to kiss?

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 08:02 PM
Good grief Dean, how much religious ass are you willing to kiss?
Just the communists'.

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 06:32 AM
Moses a communist? Read Exodus 21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd021.html) (the chapter after the Ten Commandments) and get back to me about that one.
I know very little of Moses; I know that certain communistic actions against Idolatry and possessiveness were used by Moses. I once read a book, "Socialism: From Moses to Lenin," written by an anti-communist, so there must be something there to implicate it.


As to the others: some of you seem to have missed points that I made in my post. I am against religion.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Just the communists'.

"religious communist" is an oxymoron.


I know very little of Moses; I know that certain communistic actions against Idolatry and possessiveness were used by Moses.

Bullshit. Moses employed sanctions against "idolatry" because it diverted attention away from the genocidal war-god Yahweh.

As for "possessiveness" the bastard needed his tithe.


I once read a book, "Socialism: From Moses to Lenin," written by an anti-communist, so there must be something there to implicate it.

You take anti-communist works seriously? :rolleyes:

[Free Left]

I once read a book, "Socialism: From Moses to Lenin," written by an anti-communist, so there must be something there to implicate it.

Anti-Communists would draw parellels between Hitler and Communists.
And if I saw a book saying "Socialism: From Moses to Lenin" I wouldn't read it.

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 08:45 PM
You take anti-communist works seriously? :rolleyes:
I take any statement seriously; if I didn't I would never learn anything.

As for the rest of your arguments, I don't see any implication towards Moses as a communist or an authoritarian besides what has so far been presented. It is not worth arguing beyond what has so far been said, because I admitted that I had little knowledge of the man himself.

Free Left: I would also note that Erich Fromm, a marxist, refers to Moses' antagonism of the golden calf as an attack on the psychological mode of having. He draws the distinction between a having mode, where one's reality is derived from his possessions and the possessions of others, and the being mode, where man instead explores his inner self and attempts to become what he potentially is, without the psychological restraints of possession fetishism.

But make sure not to read anything that might challenge your own views. That will certainly help you to understand your own ideology more.

[Eleutherios]

Originally posted by Dean+Jul 26 2006, 08:31 PM--> (Dean @ Jul 26 2006, 08:31 PM)
[email protected] 26 2006, 06:32 AM
Moses a communist? Read Exodus 21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd021.html) (the chapter after the Ten Commandments) and get back to me about that one.
I know very little of Moses; I know that certain communistic actions against Idolatry and possessiveness were used by Moses. I once read a book, "Socialism: From Moses to Lenin," written by an anti-communist, so there must be something there to implicate it. [/b]
Well, if there is, it was probably in that book you read, so you tell us what it is.

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 02:45 AM
Well, if there is, it was probably in that book you read, so you tell us what it is.
While I do not have the book at hand and I read it a long time ago, I can only vaguely relate stories from Exodus, such as the withering of excess food and the attack on idolatry.

I know of another book that implicates, probably more realistically, the socialism of Moses among other characters in holy texts, but it is in my car right now and I don't intend to go outside tonight.

There is ample evidence which regards the christian tradition as socialist, anyways. The first christian congregation was a commune.

Let's not forget these remarks on Jesus:

"He [Jesus] accompanied me in difficult times, in crucial moments. So Jesus Christ is no doubt a historical figure — he was someone who rebelled, an anti-imperialist guy. He confronted the Roman Empire.... Because who might think that Jesus was a capitalist? No. Judas was the capitalist, for taking the coins! Christ was a revolutionary. He confronted the religious hierarchies. He confronted the economic power of the time. He preferred death in the defense of his humanistic ideals, who fostered change... He is our Jesus Christ."

Hugo Chávez, untitled speech delivered at the Latino Pastoral Action Center in Bronx, New York City.

[Forward Union]

You realise there are a lot of religious 'Communist' groups?

Jewdas (http://www.jewdas.org/whatsnew.htm) (Jewish Anarchist)

Left-Wing.net (http://www.left-wing.net/index.htm) (Jewish leftist)

Anarchists against the wall (http://www.awalls.org/) (largely Jewish anarchist)

http://www.jewdas.org/images/ads/vegan-army.jpg

Jesus Radicals (http://www.jesusradicals.com/) (Christian anarchist)

Muslim-anarchist Charter (http://www.bayyinat.org.uk/manarchist.htm) (Muslim Anarchism)

In my eyes, these groups are contradictory. And I definitely disagree with them. But I know plenty of religious class struggle anarchists/communists. And If they want to worship a sky wizard, I can argue against their "logic" but I can't really stop them.

Of course communism and religion are incompatible, but secularism isn't. We must remember that Communism had a lot of Judaeo-Christian influence. Many Thinkers were Jewish, including Marx, Luxembourg, Emma Goldman, Trotsky (I think) and so on, in many cases the jewish and anarchist traditions overlap, (an example) (http://www.libcom.org/history/articles/1873-1958-rudolf-rocker/index.php) (...and another) (http://www.zeek.net/politics_0504.shtml)

But of course, most of us are atheists, and should work to remove religion from society. The point I was making is that there are various other avenues to which religious people can enter the class struggle.

[violencia.Proletariat]

I know that certain communistic actions against Idolatry and possessiveness were used by Moses.

Communism did not exist back then, not the idea of Karl Marx. So how were his actions "communistic?" Your classification is bullshit anyways. I could say the capitalist revolutionaries of 1789 acted "communistically" when they beheaded the king.


Many Thinkers were Jewish, including Marx, Luxembourg, Emma Goldman, Trotsky (I think) and so on, in many cases the jewish and anarchist traditions overlap, (an example) (...and another)

And if I'm not mistaken all these people renounced religion? At least Marx and Goldman.

[Eleutherios]

Yeah, I think in those cases you're confusing the term "Jew" as a member of a certain nationality with "Jew" in the sense of someone who follows Judaism.

And I really don't see anything in Moses' life, as depicted in the Bible, that shows any kind of interest in a stateless, classless society. He condoned slavery, the basis for the economy back then, and monarchy, the basis for states back then, and that means he was most definitely not a communist. Sure, he might have done some nice things that communists would agree with, but who doesn't?

[KC]

Marxists can't be religious. It's a contradiction in terms. However, religious people can be communists. There is no barrier keeping religious people from believing in communist ideals. The movement should not be divided on an issue of religion, as a lot of working class people are religious and it would alienate them from the movement. Religious people should be included in the movement, as long as their political views are in line.

Trying to change people's minds with regards to religion generally ends up in frustration and anger for both people engaged in the discussion. If you want to kill religion then all you have to do is do away with the system that perpetuates it (i.e. class society). While these religious communists might not give up their beliefs, in the future - in a classless society - religion will dwindle. So arguing with religious comrades about their misconceptions really does nothing more than divide the left.

[Forward Union]

Marx criticised the current social standing of organised religious institutions. Nothing more.

'Red' emma didn't renounce Judaism

"While I am neither Zionist nor Nationalist, I have worked for the rights of the Jews and [against] every attempt to hinder their life and development."

Though, she was very critical of Jewish tradition

"Owing to a lack of a country of their own, [Jews] developed, crystallized and idealized their cosmopolitan reasoning faculty … working for the great moment when the earth will become the home for all, without distinction of ancestry or race."

but this wasn't my point.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Additives [email protected] 27 2006, 12:16 PM
Marx criticised the current social standing of organised religious institutions. Nothing more.


Materialism. ;)

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by violencia.Proletariat+Jul 27 2006, 04:58 PM--> (violencia.Proletariat @ Jul 27 2006, 04:58 PM)
Additives [email protected] 27 2006, 12:16 PM
Marx criticised the current social standing of organised religious institutions. Nothing more.


Materialism. ;) [/b]
1 all :P

[Comrade-Z]

Alright, I'm about to go to that Jesus Radicals forum and "raise some questions" concerning their holy book, so I need the nastiest bible ammo there is. Off the top of my head, I'm talkin' slavery in Ephesians, obeying authority in Romans, Leviticus, etc. If anyone here has some personal "favorites," lay 'em on me.

Edit:

The topic has been posted.

http://forums.jesusradicals.com/viewtopic.php?p=17762#17762

In the course of my brief research I was, quite frankly, shocked, even more than usual, at some of the stuff the bible commands. For instance, it would appear that Christianity also commands women to wear veils:

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." --1 Corinthians 11:3-9

:o

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 03:28 PM
And I really don't see anything in Moses' life, as depicted in the Bible, that shows any kind of interest in a stateless, classless society. He condoned slavery, the basis for the economy back then, and monarchy, the basis for states back then, and that means he was most definitely not a communist. Sure, he might have done some nice things that communists would agree with, but who doesn't?
As I've stated many times, I don't have a lot of information offhand that implicates him as a socialist, and that this particular example is irrelevant to the main argument, that is how antagonism towards socialistic religions and religious people hurts our movement.

violencia.Proletariat

Communism did not exist back then, not the idea of Karl Marx. So how were his actions "communistic?" Your classification is bullshit anyways. I could say the capitalist revolutionaries of 1789 acted "communistically" when they beheaded the king.

This is completely counter-intuitive. Communism is not Marxism; it is classlessness.

Look up the diggers of 1649. but they can't be communists, right? All communists are Marxists, right? Well to that I would quote Marx in saying "...I am not a Marxist."

They claimed that homosexuality would not exist in a communist society, and yet it is clear today through scientific inquisition that homosexuality is often a biologically created phenomenon. So communists must follow that doctrine too, right?

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by Comrade-[email protected] 27 2006, 06:45 PM
http://forums.jesusradicals.com/viewtopic.php?p=17762#17762

You're going to be arguing for-like...ever. :ph34r:

[Dean]

Originally posted by Comrade-[email protected] 27 2006, 06:45 PM
In the course of my brief research I was, quite frankly, shocked, even more than usual, at some of the stuff the bible commands. For instance, it would appear that Christianity also commands women to wear veils:
You should be shocked, but not at the entirety of the christian faith (except perhaps at the self - destructive nature of a belief in god).

Some trends in christianity are atrocious, because some of the christian "prophets" were little more than authoritarians, racists, etc.

But the overwhelming trend in the new testament points towards Jesus as a communist - that is why the first Christian "church" was a COMMUNE.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/goldman.htm

Goldman was atheist and anti-religious.

Karl Marx wasn't just a critic of religion at the time - he was fundamentally against it. Furthermore, he was raised religious and rejected religion vehemently - making it clear he was an atheist.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Deano - You mean you actually read things contradictory to your own views? And consider the possibility that we don't have gospel truth on everything? Good god man, what's wrong with you? I think a banning is in order. :lol:

-Alex

[1141983]

I'm anti-religious, I know that most religions are incapable of teaching the adherents ways to realize spiritual growth. If they were then the world wouldnt be under the control of selfish and cruel people. If they were nothing would be under any mans control, only alligned with the laws of god. Every society would be a reflection of the laws of god and not of the minds of cowards scoundrles and beast like men as it is today.

Relgious people think, spiritual people know. The fact of the matter is things wont get any better until most people abandon their logic/knowledge and start to rely on spiritual training and wisdom to guide them.

Until we have leaders who have completed their spiritual development long before they enter the political arena, the world will continue to be this way. I dont trust any leader who spends countless hours thinking... about how to solve problems, if that leader was wise he would know instantly what to do and save her...or himself from behaving like a child when faced with an obstacle. :)

[Janus]

The fact of the matter is things wont get any better until most people abandon their logic/knowledge and start to rely on spiritual training and wisdom to guide them.
That has occured many times particularly during religious wars,witch trials,etc.

:blink: So we should be blind dogmatists? How are you anti-religious?

[1141983]

That sentence should have been: “The fact of the matter is things wont get any better until most people abandon european logic and start to rely on correct spiritual training and wisdom to guide them.”

I’m saying abandon religion. I’m saying that these religions are incapable of developing man from his state of spiritual infancy. The fact that you still need spiritual instruction means that you should not be involved with politics. You should not be concerned with how to share resources, political economy, etc. You don’t even know yourself, what makes you think or believe that you know how to solve the problems? Your intellect? Your logic? Your wrong, your in no position to improve on anything except yourself through spiritual growth.

The perfect government and economy can only be established and administered by women and men who have transcended the intellect and ego. To think that you can do this through common Christianity, Islam, or Judaism, is only a belief, in reality its impossible.

[Janus]

You don’t even know yourself, what makes you think or believe that you know how to solve the problems? Your intellect? Your logic? Your wrong, your in no position to improve on anything except yourself through spiritual growth.
How are we to develop our spirits? That's what religion is all about.


The perfect government and economy can only be established and administered by women and men who have transcended the intellect and ego.
:blink: They should only be guided solely by their spirit and totally ignore reasoning and ration?

[southernmissfan]

Religion is fundamentally reactionary, and above all, just false. Any comfort it may provide is false.

For every religious person or religious quote you can dig up that is "progressive", at least 1000 can be dug up that are reactionary. Rational communists should not be accepting of religion, just as they are not accepting of racism.

[1141983]

They should only be guided solely by their spirit and totally ignore reasoning and ration?

To be guided by the spirit is a type of reasoning to which the european mode of thinking you use is and always has been inferior.

:D

[Eleutherios]

What "spirit"? First you have to establish the existence of "spirits". Then you have to establish how "spirits" come up with better decisions than logic and rationality.

Oops, I'm being too logical. I'll just take you at your word without asking any questions, because that's what my spirit is telling me to do.

P.S. What's your problem with "European thinking" anyways? Asserting that an entire continent thinks the same way, and that their mode of thinking is somehow inferior to those of other ancestries is racist. If I accused you of thinking like an African or a Chinese person because you're rejecting rationalism, which I believe to be a superior way of thinking, wouldn't that be racist?

[1141983]

That sentence should have been: To be guided by spiritual training, understanding, knowledge and wisdom, is a type of reasoning.

“I'll just take you at your word without asking any questions, because that's what my spirit is telling me to do.” That’s the spirit! :D

“P.S. What's your problem with "European thinking" anyways? Asserting that an entire continent thinks the same way, and that their mode of thinking is somehow inferior to those of other ancestries is racist.”

That’s funny. LOL Europeans are the originators of hierarchical thinking, I guess that hit home. Europeans were also the inventors of the concept we call race. There were not races until they concluded, according to their logic, that the human family should be divided into different groups according to physical characteristics and not categorized by the way that each group behaves within the family.

“If I accused you of thinking like an African or a Chinese person because you're rejecting rationalism, which I believe to be a superior way of thinking, wouldn't that be racist?”


It depends on whether or not, after you found your way of thinking to be superior, you decided to conquer my land, kidnap myself, family and friends, chain and store us in the bottom of the good ship Jesus and treat us like we aren’t apart of god until our deaths..and our children…and their children’s children. :D


I treat people with respect, regardless of thier logic, but at the same time I’m not afraid to point out those within the human family who are most difficult to live with because of their logic. Sometimes the best way to respect a person or people is to be whatever you need to be, so that they can improve. If that means to expose someone’s culture as destructive, deadly, and unnatural, that’s what it means.

[Janus]

To be guided by the spirit is a type of reasoning to which the european mode of thinking you use is and always has been inferior.
What is this spirit entity that you speak of?
How can one even know that it is there? You might as well tell people to live based on the alignment of the stars.

[1141983]

They should only be guided solely by their spirit and totally ignore reasoning and ration?

To be guided by spiritual training, understanding, knowledge and wisdom, is a type of reasoning.

[Janus]

Yes, it is a type of reasoning but it borders on faith.

[Eleutherios]

That sentence should have been: To be guided by spiritual training, understanding, knowledge and wisdom, is a type of reasoning.
What do you mean by "spiritual training, understanding, knowledge and wisdom"? How does one obtain "spiritual" knowledge, and how is it better than other kinds of knowledge?

That’s funny. LOL Europeans are the originators of hierarchical thinking, I guess that hit home.
Huh? Hierarchies have existed in all kinds of cultures all around the world. The Aztecs and Incans weren't exactly anarchists before the Europeans showed up.

Europeans were also the inventors of the concept we call race. There were not races until they concluded, according to their logic, that the human family should be divided into different groups according to physical characteristics and not categorized by the way that each group behaves within the family.
Umm, what? You mean before the Europeans "invented" the concept of race, nobody noticed the obvious physical differences between Europeans, Africans, Asians, Aboriginal Australians, Native Americans, etc.? Even if Europeans invented the concept of race, that doesn't mean that there is a specifically European way to think and that the way Europeans think is inferior.

I treat people with respect, regardless of thier logic, but at the same time I’m not afraid to point out those within the human family who are most difficult to live with because of their logic.
Europeans are the most difficult to live with because of "their logic"? Huh??? Logic is logic regardless of one's culture. No matter where in the universe you go, if A implies B and B implies C, then A implies C. It doesn't matter if you come from Europe or Africa or Jupiter. There's no such thing as "our logic" and "their logic". There is only logic and illogic. To imply otherwise is simply illogical. Pointing out the flaws in other people's logic is fine, but to blame bad logic on the inhabitants of an entire continent is just plain racist. There are logical and illogical thinkers in all cultures.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Relgious people think, spiritual people know. The fact of the matter is things wont get any better until most people abandon their logic/knowledge and start to rely on spiritual training and wisdom to guide them.

Ohh the irony, spirits don't exist.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by dean
Look up the diggers of 1649. but they can't be communists, right? All communists are Marxists, right? Well to that I would quote Marx in saying "...I am not a Marxist."


You are confusing Communism with communalism.

Prior to Marx and Engels, Communism didn't exist.