Role Off The Lumpenproletarian

[working_class_warrior]

Does the lumpenproletarian have a role in revolution. I dont think the lumpenproletarian has any revolutionary potetial only the proletarian the working class can make revolution.

[Year: 1]

Marx saw them as a counterrevolutionary force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenproletariat


Some writers like Fanon (who wrote The Wretched of the Earth) say the lumpenproletariat should be used for de-colonization purposes. Black Panthers were influenced by Fanon's work since they saw African Americans as a "Black colony" in the U.S. and hence wanted to use the lumpenproletariat.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wretched_of_the_Earth

[Whitten]

No. Communism is a workers ideology, not an non-workers one, whether those non-workers have vast ammounts of capital or none. (obviously this doesnt include those handicapped or sick in such a way that they are unable to meaningfully work, and the elderly, and children)

[Karl Marx's Camel]

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[which doctor]

I think that some lumpen will have a role in the revolution.


Marx saw them as a counterrevolutionary force.
Marx says a lot of things, don't believe everything he says. It's a big mistake.


No. Communism is a workers ideology, not an non-workers one, whether those non-workers have vast ammounts of capital or none. (obviously this doesnt include those handicapped or sick in such a way that they are unable to meaningfully work, and the elderly, and children)
Well, that's your interpretation of communism. My intrepretation is that Communism is just not an economic and political idealogy, but also a philosphical one. It is one that builds on anti-consumerism and other facets of anti-alienation. Everyone living in society has their chains to lose via revolution.


If I recall correctly, in Venezuela under the 2002 coup, the Palace Guard was the ones who took control over the palace and therefore the military dictatorship.
Are palace guards lumpen?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well, having no job and currently squatting, I'm technically a lumpen. Marx was dead wrong.

[loveme4whoiam]

I seem to remember reading a link that someone posted up here ages ago, which had an interview with a former high-up Blank Panther dude, who criticised the lumpen involvement in their movement. One of the big points he made was that their exceedingly violent tendancies made positive PR with normal people (ie, everyone they were trying to win over to their point of view) harder than it could have been.

Judging by my own experiences with people who are technically lumpen, I would say they have zero revolutionary potential for the exact reason stated above. But then again, like NoXion says he technically is one. Just goes to show, over-arching categories can be misleading and inaccurate.

[Donnie]

I believe the lumpenproletariate will play appart in the social revolution. For one, criminals and swindlers and prostitutes etc are all products of the alienated and divided capitalist society.

For example in the Hungarian uprising of 56 many crooks and criminals were released from the prisons to help in the insurrection and most of criminals joined the insurrection and worked to help establish the workers councils.

Bakunin has some important emphasis on the lumpenproletariate. Bakunin also contended that as well as honest working people taking part in the revolution he also said that a succesfull revolution would come about by arming the underworld of society.

I think it would be pretty stupid to believe that just the honest people of the working class would take part in the revolution.
The revolution is about the disposessed reclaiming an actual life and unfortunatly some working people have had to turn to such nasty forms of lifes like prostitution, pimping and drug dealing.

In every insurrection lumpenproletariate would have taken part it's just that they've probably been written out of the history books.

[Forward Union]

I agree with donnie completely. The Lumpen are hardly going to side with the bourgeoisie...

[Whitten]

Aye, but the question is, should the proletariate side with the lumpen?

[Donnie]

Aye, but the question is, should the proletariate side with the lumpen?
Thats not the question I'm worried about when it comes to the social revolution. What I'm more worried about is who out of the working class will be siding with the upper class or Fascists. We can definetly tell this is going to be true as in the evidence of 'scabbing'.

The lumpenproletariate have been forced into those positions of society by the capitalist system. Just like most individuals have been forced into the working class, some people have turned away from working in the workforce and have turned to more nasty forms of working like robbery in order to survive under capitalism.
Also our alienated and conflicting society can effect people in psychological ways.

I don't like to call them the lumpenproletariate I think there just as much as part of the proletariate.

You can bet that the comrade next you when the barracades are resurrected will be wearing a nikey hat with his traky bottoms tucked into his socks. ;)

[Vanguard1917]

I started a thread on this subject some months ago and there was a nice little debate on it with contributions by some of revleft's finest:

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...mpenproletariat (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=46396&hl=lumpenproletariat)

[Floyce White]

The question is nonsense. There is no such thing as an "underclass."

The families who claim to own things used by others are upper class. Those who do not are lower class. It's a yes/no proposition. There is no maybe. There is no middle.

[chimx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 05:31 PM
Well, having no job and currently squatting, I'm technically a lumpen. Marx was dead wrong.
i would expect a counter-revolutionary to say something like that!

[Coggeh]

But wouldnt communism turn them into workers .. that is the key to the whole ideology .. everyone is equal .. isnt it?

[Janus]

Yes, in a communist society, eveyone is basically a worker.

As for the question, yes, I think that the lumpenproletariat will play a role in the revolution and take the worker's side.

[RevolverNo9]

Aye, but the question is, should the proletariate side with the lumpen?

No it's not - that implies that the lumpen proletariat are an active social agent. They're clearly not.

I think we can say that inevitably some members will be radicalised by revolution... but this is the exception. If you look at current society (in Britain at any least) I think you will find it very difficult to come across such members of the 'underclass' (to use a rather unappealling term) who can be persuaded of the revolutionary programme. However there are those who are culturally workerist who have by circumstance been replaced (by perhaps unemployment) who no doubt will align themselves with proletarian struggle once more.

As has been said, wide-ranging class analysis does not account for the specific positions of certain individuals.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

i would expect a counter-revolutionary to say something like that!

What makes me "counter-revolutionary"? :rolleyes:

[farleft]

I think that some lumpen will have a revolutionary role other lumpen will just sit and ignore it all.... untill after the revolution that is when all will be workers, one class, the working class.

[Year: 1]

Originally posted by Additives [email protected] 24 2006, 09:25 PM
I agree with donnie completely. The Lumpen are hardly going to side with the bourgeoisie...
The L.P. are a mixed bag at best. Take drug addicts for example---they are hardly the most dependable people in the world. They will betray the revolution for one crack rock. And prostitutes?---- do you expect prostitutes to jump in the austere hotbed of revolution when they can easily trade that for the voluptuary bed of the bourgeoisie or the semi-bourgeosie? I'm not saying there will not be elements of the LP in the revolutionary left but to depend on them is like depending on a loose tooth.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Take drug addicts for example---they are hardly the most dependable people in the world. They will betray the revolution for one crack rockTake drug addicts for example---they are hardly the most dependable people in the world. They will betray the revolution for one crack rock

Unlike the bourgeousie, we can offer a virtually unlimited supply of drugs due to our non-dependance on the monetary system. And drug addicts have been screwed over by the ruling class plenty of times - remember the ongoing War on Drugs?


And prostitutes?---- do you expect prostitutes to jump in the austere hotbed of revolution when they can easily trade that for the voluptuary bed of the bourgeoisie or the semi-bourgeosie?

I'm sorry, but if you think revolutionary leftists are "austere" you are very sadly mistaken.

Fuck off back to Lenin and his anti-sexuality (http://redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1140167502&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&) stance.

[RebelDog]

Surely the revolution must free us all from the horrors of capitalism. Victims come in many shapes and sizes. The way some people are talking of those they possibly consider inferior to them on this thread is really very like the way a middle class person would talk of drug addicts and prostitutes, as a nuisance, or unworthy. Thats pathetic.

[rebelworker]

Originally posted by Year: 1+Jul 25 2006, 06:27 PM--> (Year: 1 @ Jul 25 2006, 06:27 PM)
Additives [email protected] 24 2006, 09:25 PM
I agree with donnie completely. The Lumpen are hardly going to side with the bourgeoisie...
The L.P. are a mixed bag at best. Take drug addicts for example---they are hardly the most dependable people in the world. They will betray the revolution for one crack rock. And prostitutes?---- do you expect prostitutes to jump in the austere hotbed of revolution when they can easily trade that for the voluptuary bed of the bourgeoisie or the semi-bourgeosie? I'm not saying there will not be elements of the LP in the revolutionary left but to depend on them is like depending on a loose tooth. [/b]
This is a fucked up post..

Sex workers are working class! They are some of the most hardcore organisers worldwide and will certainly side with the revolution in a great majority.

Drug addicts are not always relyable, but community outreach on the level that would be nessesary for a revolution would help to eliviate this. Check out the film Fix, its a documentary abouyt the Vancouver Drug Users Union (VanDUU), Solid community organisers, I met one in person and she is defenitly down.

As for lumpen, most of what people may consider lumpeen are infact just unemplyed workers. As for long term criminal elemnets check out the Film "Balck and Gold". Its about the largest gang in New York becoming highly politicised in the late 90's. Also the Young Lord Party was a former gang. Tookie Williams, former leafder and founder of the CRIPS was executed last year under great protest. He had become very politically active while in Prison and wrote about the conditions of poverty in Black America that lead to the formations of gangs and the culture of violenece, he was down.

I have also read at least half a dozen writings from prisoners who had converted to anachism and come to reent their past activities.

Much of the Lumpen will be down!

[RevSouth]

Alot of people feel the same way as I do. Lumpenproletariat are just the byproduct of capitalist society. Some have been rejected because of physical defects, Mental diseases, drug abuse, alternative lifestlyes, etc. When you analyze this, you realize that post-revolution, people with "defects" can still be found jobs, drug abuse can be helped with no worry of cost or support, and there will no longer be such thing as an "alternative lifestyle."

Anyway, not all of us believe everything Marx wrote down. As leftists we are generally rationalists, we look at something and make an educated decision. Marx was no prophet and not sent by a god. We can accept some things he said and not accept others. Kill your Idols, as the saying goes.

[Entrails Konfetti]

The lumpenproletariat are like the pette-bourgeosie, some will side for the revolution and some will get used by the bourgeoisie.

Gangs for instance can work as militias for the bourgeosie, drug trade from gangs helps finance the bourgeosie-- do you honestly believe that the USA is such a domainant force because of taxes to fund millitary operation world wide? tax wouldn't cover it.

The Pette-Bourgeoisie is the sole hanger-on of the morals only talked about by the bourgeoisie, this is why some of them will side with the counter-revolution.

[Guest1]

The lumpenproletariat can play no revolutionary role as a class, because it has absolutely no cohesion. It is made up of a hodgepodge mix of drug dealers, swindlers and the like, the scum of capitalist gears, who for the most part make their living by exploiting and conning each other, and working people.

The unemployed are not lumpen, they are working class.

Individual lumpen may side with workers when the time comes, but experience shows us that more often than not the class itself is mobilized by Fascist bands to crush workers.

Clearly, to a certain extent, attempts should be made to mobilize them during a revolution, just as workers reach out to the petty-bourgeoisie during a revolution. To discuss this from a theoretical standpoint however, or to say they have any revolutionary potential (as opposed to a supporting role behind proletarians), is an error.

[rebelworker]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 26 2006, 01:31 AM

Individual lumpen may side with workers when the time comes, but experience shows us that more often than not the class itself is mobilized by Fascist bands to crush workers.


Im curious as to what historical examples you would give for this statement.

Obviously soem unsavory people or organisations, like the mafia in the US, have historically been very harmful to the workers movement but just as ofetn as naught from the examples I can think of the lumpen goes over to the revolution.

The Balck Panthers and young lords were two major cases during the sixiteds where the lumpen was a central element in the cities.

More examples would be nice.

[Year: 1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 07:27 PM

Take drug addicts for example---they are hardly the most dependable people in the world. They will betray the revolution for one crack rockTake drug addicts for example---they are hardly the most dependable people in the world. They will betray the revolution for one crack rock

Unlike the bourgeousie, we can offer a virtually unlimited supply of drugs due to our non-dependance on the monetary system. And drug addicts have been screwed over by the ruling class plenty of times - remember the ongoing War on Drugs?


And prostitutes?---- do you expect prostitutes to jump in the austere hotbed of revolution when they can easily trade that for the voluptuary bed of the bourgeoisie or the semi-bourgeosie?

I'm sorry, but if you think revolutionary leftists are "austere" you are very sadly mistaken.

Fuck off back to Lenin and his anti-sexuality (http://redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1140167502&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&) stance.
I meant "austere" in terms of providing material comforts, pecuniary gain--- the proletariat will offer little or nothing in the way of "compensation" to prostitutes or to the lumpenproletariat during the course of the violent revolution. They can only offer the better life that will be built after the enemies of the revolution have been defeated. As to sex, my view is it is none of my business what goes on in the privacy of another's bedroom.

Fascism has used the lumpen. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenproletariat

[Coggeh]

I believe the lumpen proletarians should be treated as equals in the revolution .. they have been the most opressed by the borgeois capitalist class .. leaving them out of the revoltion would show greed ... we are supposed to be benefiting all people that are not the opressers .. like wake up people!

[Janus]

they have been the most opressed by the borgeois capitalist class
Not really. They are margininalized only because they exist outside the system.

[hoopla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 09:45 PM

they have been the most opressed by the borgeois capitalist class
Not really. They are margininalized only because they exist outside the system.
This seems silly. Who on earth is oppressing them then? If not capital? A few pockets of fuedalism in Africa :lol:

But, I would say, that they don't have any factories to take over. Still...

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 09:41 PM
Im curious as to what historical examples you would give for this statement.

Obviously soem unsavory people or organisations, like the mafia in the US, have historically been very harmful to the workers movement but just as ofetn as naught from the examples I can think of the lumpen goes over to the revolution.

The Balck Panthers and young lords were two major cases during the sixiteds where the lumpen was a central element in the cities.

More examples would be nice.
Well, I'm taking actually mobilized as a mass, not as individuals. The first recorded instance of Fascism, linked to in year 1's post, was louis bonaparte's rule. He mobilized the lumpenproletariat en masse, and used them to smash the workers' movement. The same can be found in a study of the brownshirts and blackshirts of Hitler and Mussolini.

[Janus]

Who on earth is oppressing them then? If not capital? A few pockets of fuedalism in Africa
They live outside of capitalism and are impoverished because they choose this lifestyle.