Marx Is A Racist

[TommyP]

HI MY NAME IS TOMMY P, I AM A CONSERVITAVE REPUBLICAN.

I KNOW ALL YOU SOCIALIST/COMMIES LOVE KARL MARX, BUT DID YOU KNOW HE WAS A RACIST!

HOW CAN YOU SUPPORT HIM IF THIS IS TRUE!

READ THIS:

"It is now quite plain to me — as the shape of his head and the way his hair grows also testify — that he is descended from the negroes who accompanied Moses' flight from Egypt (unless his mother or paternal grandmother interbred with a nigger). Now, this blend of Jewishness and Germanness, on the one hand, and basic negroid stock, on the other, must inevitably give rise to a peculiar product. The fellow's importunity is also nigger-like."

* about Ferdinand Lassalle
* London, 30 July 1862; quoted in Marx and Engels Collected Works, Volume 41, p. 388 [1]

"Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Judaism, would be the self-emancipation of our time. An organization of society [such as communism] which would abolish the preconditions for huckstering, and therefore the possibility of huckstering, would make [this] Jew impossible. His religious consciousness would be dissipated like a thin haze in the real, vital air of society. On the other hand, if the Jew recognizes that this practical nature of his is futile and works to abolish it, he extricates himself from his previous development and works for human emancipation as such and turns against the supreme practical expression of human self-estrangement."

IF YOU ARE NOT RACIST, ABANDONN MARX!!!

[KC]

I don't get it. Marx was racist, and he created a theory that has nothing to do with racism. Yet if you are in agreement with the theory that Marx developed, you're a racist? Some..."logic" you've got there. :rolleyes:

[Forward Union]

I think marx probably was a bit racist, or at least said some racist things. But Im not such a fucking idiot as to worship everything he said as divine truth, and not many people here do.

I agree with bit's of what he said, and disagree with others, the same is true with hundreds of people who have influenced my current viewpoint.

[FriedFrog]

Marx is long dead. Like, 120 years dead.

Most people will take what he says and put it into a modern day relevance, and discard the things that are archaic and not of this time, i.e. racism.

Y'see, thats the problem with claiming you're a "x"-ist. It usually implies to everyone else that you agree with everything "x" has to say.

Thats why I pick and chose bits I agree with from different ideas and theories.

So yeah, Marx was racist. I'm sure if anyone on this board met Marx today and he started spouting racial slurs, we'd say "Nah, mate. We dont do racism any more".

[Si Pinto]

HELLO BACK TOMMY P

READ THIS:

IS YOUR CAPSLOCK BUTTON STUCK OR SOMETHING?

OH AND BY THE WAY

YOU SPELT CONSERVATIVE WRONG

AND YOU SPELT ABANDON WRONG

GEORGE BUSH GETS A LOT OF WORDS WRONG AS WELL.

SO I GUESS YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN AFTER ALL

BYE

[lovablecommie]

Marx lived quite a while ago, when he was writing that it wouldnt have been racist, you should try reading some books written more than 30 years ago you'll be suprised by what you find.

P.S Mr Bush likes to bomb other countries and imprison people for having foriegn names, this could be considered far more racist. does that make you as a republican racist?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

It is now quite plain to me — as the shape of his head and the way his hair grows also testify — that he is descended from the negroes who accompanied Moses' flight from Egypt (unless his mother or paternal grandmother interbred with a nigger). Now, this blend of Jewishness and Germanness, on the one hand, and basic negroid stock, on the other, must inevitably give rise to a peculiar product. The fellow's importunity is also nigger-like.

The above quote is only racist in the context of assuming that races exist in a meaningful biological way, and the use of certain words that are certainly far less acceptable today than they were in Marx's time.

Unless "peculiar" is the gravest insult in the world :lol:

But no, in both cases I think Marx happens to be wrong. Does this surprise you?

And how the hell is this related to the ideology of marxism?

[Eleutherios]

If Marx being a racist totally discredits the socioeconomic theory of Marxism, then surely the countless racist conservative Republicans of the past do much worse damage to conservative Republicans!

[Goatse]

You know, I was going to respond to the questions in this post, but then I noticed a complete lack of question marks! This bothered me greatly, and after a while of contemplation, I came to the conclusion that answers were not actually desired by the poster.

Oh yeah, and fuck you, most of us are infact no Marx-worshippers. Marx was no god; Marx was human like everyone else, and thus was not perfect.

[R_P_A_S]

ok so he was not racist. i find that hard to believe. I like what someone here said that back then people spoke differently. So what would be the quick responce to someone claiming marx is racist because of his "nigger" comment.????

I just find it hard that this man could come up with the communist manifesto and and exclude blacks from the "workers of the world" bull shit.

[LSD]

First of all Marx "isn't" anything, the man's been dead for 120 years.

Insofar as whether he was a racist, I'd say that the jury's still out on that one. Certainly he made some comments that, by today's standard would be considered unacceptably racist in tone, but, again, the man lived over a century ago.

Remember the great political figures of "conservatism" were hardly models for racial harmony. Your "founding fathers" were almost univerally slave owners and even your "great emancipator", Licoln, until his dying breath insisted on the racial superiority of whites.

What matters is not how someone like Marx compares to today's standards, it's how did he compare to the standards of his day; and when it comes to racial issues, Marx was actually incredibly progressive.

[Vanguard1917]

What Marx or Engels - or any other Marxist, for that matter - may say in private correspondence letters takes nothing from the fact that Marxism is the single most universalist and internationalist mode of thought ever to have been developed.

WORKERS OF ALL COUNTRIES, UNITE!

[Zero]

OMFG MY GOD WAS RACIST! I'M AS GOOD AS DEAD! *stab*

There, is that what you want? >.>

[workers unity]

I doubt Marx ever used the term "nigger" - his English was even more finite than his French.

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 04:33 PM
IF YOU ARE NOT RACIST, ABANDONN MARX!!!
lol.

if you found out that keynes was a child-molester, would you use the fact to disprove his economic theories?

i think you would.

[Zero]

Originally posted by "workers_unity"
I doubt Marx ever used the term "nigger" - his English was even more finite than his French.

Well, on Marxists.org it has the paper in question:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works...s/62_07_30a.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm)

Though it's anyones guess why it is translated to 'Nigger' rather then 'Negro' or 'Black' or whatever. Maybe he really was a racist? Who knows. But more importantly... who cares?

[workers unity]

Though it's anyones guess why it is translated to 'Nigger' rather then 'Negro' or 'Black' or whatever. Maybe he really was a racist? Who knows.

Who knows? Anyone who has done even the tiniest bit of research into the matter.

[Zero]

Have you looked at the link I gave?

EDIT: The last thing I'm saying is that we should disreguard Marx because he used racist terms (or maybe at that time, in that place, that wasn't considered racist?) "Remember the idea, not the man."

[workers unity]

>> Have you looked at the link I gave?

Yes, certainly I could provide you with other links that appear even worse. Engels once noted regarding Paul Lafargue, "Being in his quality as a nigger, a degree nearer to the rest of the animal kingdom than the rest of us, he is undoubtedly the most appropriate representative of that district."

I'm not arguing the use of the word, or even the translation.

Anyone who did any research on the subject would realize neither Marx nor Engels were racist.

[Sabocat]

TommyP,

Most if not all of your hero "founding fathers" were slave owners.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

This slur was buried by Hal Draper, years ago, in Karl Marx's Theory of Revolution, Volume One.

Some of this material can be found here:

http://marxists.org/archive/draper/1977/kmtr1/app1.htm

[ricardsju]

[Alteration of dialectal neger, black person, from French nègre, from Spanish negro. See Negro.] (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nigger)

[Jazzratt]

Hey TommyP, I love how people like you come onto this board and act as if Marxism is some form of relegion with the big beadry guy as our God. Strangley though you never seem to learn that unlike relegious loonies we do not take his EVERY WORD as gospel.

I'm sure this has been said, I just thought I'd reitarate because you guys also have a habit of only replying to the most recent posts.

[ComradeOm]

And as a "CONSERVITAVE REPUBLICAN" you're not a racist?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

OM: hey the GOP was enierly non-racist over the 'relief' of New Orleans last year -- as I am sure you agree.

Oh, there goes another flying pig....

http://www.patrickhayesart.com/blog/images/flying_pig_copy.jpg

[Dean]

I've only seen 2 quotes of his that implicate a potential racism in him. Even so, works such as "on the jewish question" make this argument appear illogical. If he was racist, it was a latent trend in his personality. He made no major ideological conclusions based on racism, so if this racism did exist it was a minor and mostly irrelevant factor in his personality.

[CrazyModerate]

So, can anyone give a deeper explanation than "it was a long time ago, everyone was like that." Wasn't Marx supposed to be the most, or atleast one of the most progressive individuals of his time? I personally was quite shocked, and although I disagree with what Marxism has come to mean, I think the vast majority of what he said was true in terms of economics and sociology. Such as the fact that the capitalist economic system is a system of oppression, and that it does not solve poverty, and the fact that societies are designed to maintain hierarchies.

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 04:51 AM
So, can anyone give a deeper explanation than "it was a long time ago, everyone was like that." Wasn't Marx supposed to be the most, or atleast one of the most progressive individuals of his time? I personally was quite shocked, and although I disagree with what Marxism has come to mean, I think the vast majority of what he said was true in terms of economics and sociology. Such as the fact that the capitalist economic system is a system of oppression, and that it does not solve poverty, and the fact that societies are designed to maintain hierarchies.
Uhh... what I said was not "everyone was like that then."

[CrazyModerate]

Sorry I missed your post.

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 05:22 AM
Sorry I missed your post.
That's cool. But what do you think? I don't even know of the specific connotation of the term "nigger" then, but I doubt it was any less derogative than it is now.

[workers unity]

The term in German, to my understanding, is neger, which simply means black person, and from what I understand was derived from a word meaning plowman, which was only associated with black people under the conditions of Dutch colonialism in Africa.

The quote I pulled from Engels is not explained simply by saying "everyone was like that," however, to understand the basis of why he might say what he said, one would have to look at early anthropology as it was born in the enlightenment. In short, the entire basis for it was relating humans to animals and animal social organizations. Far to early to go into things like genetic mapping, early anthropological sources based human connection to animals by physical traits, thus, black people were considered closer to the animal kingdom, asians less so, and whites the least. It was not intended to be derogatory, but was simply the understanding of the day due to the limitations on the science.

In short, their use of the term "nigger" (as it has been translated), is not derogatory in the least, an Engels understanding of black people being closer to the animal kingdom was in no way a condemnation or descriminatory remark regarding Lafargue. In fact, if you examine that particular quote in context, it was said not to insult Lafargue, but to insult the people who he was being elected to represent. That is, in saying he was closer to the animal kingdom, and thus fit to represent them, he was calling the people he represented animals (in a rather roundabout way), however, his understanding that Lafargue was "closer to the animal kingdom" was not based on any distates or malperception of Lafargue, but again on the anthropological understanding of the day to which both men would have been very interested in as it pertained to their work and understanding of historical materialism.

Lafargue was in fact, often praised (although sometimes critically) by both Engels and Marx, and Marx did not seem to have severe enough reservations about him to prevent him from marrying his daughter. Nor did Engels when he supported him and Marx's daughter financially.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Crazy Moderate, have a read of that link I posted on the previous page (to an article written by Hal Draper); it tackles this very point.