Some Questions About

[Enragé]

this is mainly out of simple interest but also because I'll be going to London if everything works out (financially) to go to some university over there and I'll want to be active over there (or here if it costs too much to go there) and my original idea of joining the SWP is getting more and more unlikely because im simply fed up with democratic centralism in which centralism in practice always gains the upper hand, and am shifting more to the anarchist side of things anyway/

anyway
How is the AF organised?
How big is it?
Whats its relation to the SWP?
Why are they against national liberation movements?

:)

[Donnie]

How is the AF organised?
Delegation & recall, there are local groups all over the country and members who federate into the main Anarchist Federation.


How big is it?
It's hard to tell because some people who are members don't have access to the net. Etc.


Whats its relation to the SWP?
The SWP is Trot party and the Anarchist Federation is a federation of British class struggle Anarchist’s like myself, who’s main aim is to establish Anarchist Communism.
We appose the SWP on the fact that they are reformist and well the rest is obvious.


Why are they against national liberation movements?
We oppose National Liberation groups because the working class has nothing in common with their boss's. We don't support the overthrow of one class of boss's to be replaced with another class of boss's. We are a federation dedicated to social revolution and the abolition of capitalism and the state.


Email the AF via the Federations main website AF (http://www.afed.org.uk)

[Forward Union]

Donnie has basically summed it up. A few things I would like to add.

It's size, well are we talking nationally or internationally? in the UK, we're looking at, possibly, around 80 to 100 activists. With many groups closely tied in and overlapping with the anarchist federation itself. But as it stands now, no one really knows. Around the world, we're talking thousands, maybe tens of thousands, as the Anarchist federation is a member of the iaf-ifa (http://www.iaf-ifa.org/) and has branches in Argentina, Belarus, Britain, Czechoslovak, France,
Germany, Italy, Spain, Russia...


Whats its relation to the SWP?

I might add that the SWP is also somewhat bitter toward the AF, we tend to steal a lot of their members. I think a lot of pissed off proles want to get involved in the class struggle, join the SWP, and end up selling papers for the next few years until they either become too old or get bored and give up. Many of course, get involved in proper organisations like the AF.


Why are they against national liberation movements?

To put it in our own words:

"We are opposed to the ideology of national liberation movements which claims that there is some common interest between native bosses and the working class in face of foreign domination. We do support working class struggles against racism, genocide, ethnocide and political and economic colonialism. We oppose the creation of any new ruling class. We reject all forms of nationalism, as this only serves to redefine divisions in the international working class. The working class has no country and national boundaries must be eliminated. We seek to build an anarchist international to work with other libertarian revolutionaries throughout the world "

Anyway, thanks for showing an interest in the AF, any more questions don't hesitate to ask. I can also post you a free copy of this month's resistance if you want? :)

[Enragé]

Delegation & recall, there are local groups all over the country and members who federate into the main Anarchist Federation.

:)


The SWP is Trot party and the Anarchist Federation is a federation of British class struggle Anarchist’s like myself, who’s main aim is to establish Anarchist Communism.
We appose the SWP on the fact that they are reformist and well the rest is obvious.

True, i know about the theoretical difference, but how about practice? For instance, do you sometimes organise demo's together?


We oppose National Liberation groups because the working class has nothing in common with their boss's. We don't support the overthrow of one class of boss's to be replaced with another class of boss's. We are a federation dedicated to social revolution and the abolition of capitalism and the state.

Hmm well i guess that makes some sense, in theory. However in practice many resistance movements are often fueled by the working class and revolutions are often not a possibility while one nation rules over the other.

As long as this theoretical opposition to national liberation does not lead to a practical opposition to anti-imperialist struggle, im fine with it.

Example; i support certain goals of Hamas, PFLP, Fatah, IRA, ETA, Hezbollah, Iraqi resistance etc etc which means i stand in solidarity with them even though i dont agree, or find myself to be disgusted by some of their ideas. To be directly opposed to these groups would lead to...well bourgeois and mechanical purism in face of a people's desire to be free of an oppressive occupation. Even though the end of the occupation wouldnt lead to complete freedom, it would still improve the situation.

practically, did you take to the streets yesterday to demonstrate against israeli agression? :)


I might add that the SWP is also somewhat bitter toward the AF, we tend to steal a lot of their members. I think a lot of pissed off proles want to get involved in the class struggle, join the SWP, and end up selling papers for the next few years until they either become too old or get bored and give up. Many of course, get involved in proper organisations like the AF.

:lol:


Anyway, thanks for showing an interest in the AF, any more questions don't hesitate to ask. I can also post you a free copy of this month's resistance if you want?

that'd be cool :)

[Donnie]

True, i know about the theoretical difference, but how about practice? For instance, do you sometimes organise demo's together?
No we don't organise with them we plan our own actions with other anarchist organisation or just general anarchist workers etc.
For example the International of Anarchist Federations organised a day of anarchist action all over the world.
Where far too organised to be hanging around with a bunch of middle class reformist "socialists". All they seem to do is flog there little paper. The Anarchist Federation produces a Magazine called "Organise" two times a year one in the spring and one in the autum, it also produces an indepth monthly news bullitin called "Resistence" in which all member of the federation can get involved with producing it.
Also an ex SWP member turned Anarchist said that the SWP had lost all it's notion of class war when one party member turned up in a Porche.
Also it was members of the Anarchist Federation & Class War Federation that were the people who set about establishing ANTIFA in the UK. The SWP did no such thing in establishing a militant responce to fascism in Britain. I'm pretty sure SWP members flog off the state run anti-fascist magazine "Searchlight" but in practical terms they do nothing to combat fascism physically in Britain.

It is the Anarchist Federation, Class War Federation & Solidarity Federation who are the truely organised revolutionary's in Britain. The Communist party's and Social Democratic party's are all racketed with revisionism.


Example; i support certain goals of Hamas, PFLP, Fatah, IRA, ETA, Hezbollah, Iraqi resistance etc etc which means i stand in solidarity with them even though i dont agree, or find myself to be disgusted by some of their ideas. To be directly opposed to these groups would lead to...well bourgeois and mechanical purism in face of a people's desire to be free of an oppressive occupation. Even though the end of the occupation wouldnt lead to complete freedom, it would still improve the situation.
We don't support national liberation struggles like the IRA for one reason terrorist attacks in general can kill & effect working people. Also the IRA has serious religious undertones.

If you want to hear the Anarchist Federations & International of Anarchist Federations opinions on the Palestinian & Isreali conflict then please read read this statement by the French Anarchist Federation
Here (http://www.iaf-ifa.org/News/palestine/communique_july_en.htm)

Also supporting national liberation struggle's does nothing to bring about workers freedom in their country. By throwing off say an occupying goverment or invasion their is still the "little" problem of capitalism & the state.
We don't want to loosen the peoples chains we want to abolish them. Only a revolutionary social movement can do this not a national liberation.

Nationalism is in opposition to the Class War idea.

Thanks for the intrest, we hope to see you get involved with the Federation.

ACoD

[Enragé]

No we don't organise with them we plan our own actions with other anarchist organisation or just general anarchist workers etc.

Surely by combining strength you can get to more people, organise more of an alternative voice to the bullshit that rages on in the world today?


Also an ex SWP member turned Anarchist said that the SWP had lost all it's notion of class war when one party member turned up in a Porche.

:blink:


We don't support national liberation struggles like the IRA for one reason terrorist attacks in general can kill & effect working people. Also the IRA has serious religious undertones.

INLA then. (Republican socialism)


how would a more formal State help Palestinians?

It would get the israeli military out, so that the palestinians can concentrate on defeating its own masters, and not the Israeli one. Also, the only true ruling class in the Palestinian Territories at the moment is the extremely militarily powerful Israeli ruling class. Doing away with the power of that ruling class over palestine would certainly improve a great deal, and even though another ruling class would take its place, it'd be way less powerful.

The rejection of a Palestinian comes across as too abstract, too distant from day to practice, too mechanical, purist ("our way or the highway").

"We propose anarchist federalism, fundamentally egalitarian and adapted to a Middle East composed of a mosaic of peoples, favouring the free association and federation on egalitarian bases of the individuals and groups of individuals making up this federalism."

Ofcourse this is best, but this cannot come to be while the occupation continues. As if the creation of a palestinian state would divide the palestinians from the israelis anymore than they are now.


Also supporting national liberation struggle's does nothing to bring about workers freedom in their country. By throwing off say an occupying goverment or invasion their is still the "little" problem of capitalism & the state.
We don't want to loosen the peoples chains we want to abolish them. Only a revolutionary social movement can do this not a national liberation.

if the chains are so tight it clamps off your wrists, perhaps loosening is a good idea if we cant break them yet.

[Everyday Anarchy]

Why hasn't the anarchist federation spread into the United States? :blink:
I'm too young to start one here in the States, but I think somebody certainly should.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 12:46 AM
Surely by combining strength you can get to more people, organise more of an alternative voice to the bullshit that rages on in the world today?

The thing is, that although we're not completely innocent, the SWP are incredibly sectarian. They don't even co-operate with other Trotskyist parties, and often slag eachother off, I think have even been known to get into the odd scuffle :rolleyes: . The point is, if they can't co-operate with eachother, how can they co-oeprate with us? The anarchist federation does work with hundreds of other groups (obvious Class War and Solfed) but also many non-anarchist groups, like Stop the War and The Socialst party of Great britain.

Of course we often end up going to the same demos as the SWP, and other nutcase groups...


if the chains are so tight it clamps off your wrists, perhaps loosening is a good idea if we cant break them yet.

"So what do we do to oppose this situation? Simply dream? Have an idea of freedom, which moreover must be carefully formulated, because we cannot say: "the freedom anarchists want is simply a reduction in control". In that case we would find ourselves faced with the problem: "But where does this reduction in control end?". At a minimal level perhaps? For example, would the State become legitimate for anarchists if instead of being the oppressor State of today, it were to become, let us say: the ideal minimal State of the liberals? No, certainly not. So that is not the way to think. It is not a question of trying to limit control, but of abolishing control altogether We are not for more freedom. More freedom is given to the slave when his chains are lengthened. We are for the abolition of the chain, so we are for freedom, not more freedom. Freedom means the absence of all chains, the absence of limits and all that ensues from such a statement."

The Anarchist Tension

Alfredo M. Bonanno

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 03:24 AM
Why hasn't the anarchist federation spread into the United States? :blink:
I'm too young to start one here in the States, but I think somebody certainly should.
Well, there are groups in the US that have very similar politics, if they would like to sign up to the IAF that'd be cool.

[Marion]

Hi Additives Free,

A couple of questions:

1) I'm sure you get asked this all the time (well, perhaps not that often, but you get the idea) - what exactly is the difference between AFed and SolFed?

2) Out of interest, how did AFed work with the Stop the War Coalition? I'm presuming you're not really involved in it now? Any views, regrets etc?

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 11:15 AM
1) I'm sure you get asked this all the time (well, perhaps not that often, but you get the idea) - what exactly is the difference between AFed and SolFed?


Well, not much really. I suppose the biggest difference is our stance on unions. Solfed being very pro-union. And us feds being critical of Unionism, which has led to some debate between us. Of course we all get on pretty well, and have discussed merging the groups from time to time. There is an excellent topic on Libcom, where the similarities and differences of our groups were debated, here (http://libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6646)


2) Out of interest, how did AFed work with the Stop the War Coalition? I'm presuming you're not really involved in it now? Any views, regrets etc?

Well, A lot of group relationships within the entire class struggle movement are somewhat informal. Many Anarchists are members of the Stop the war Coalition (and vice versa) and so consequently on the antiwar marches there were often large numbers of anarchists. There is a level of co-operation between the afed and the STWC, we often turn up to their marches, help out at stands ect, though I should probably stress this is often as individual members of the AF.

Im somewhat critical of the anti-war movement in general. I know some decent people who are really involved, but in hindsight I wonder if getting thousands of people to march for peace really achieved anything. We are, after all, in favour of Class War, and so are hardly a peace group. But of course, if the only people we work with are people that share our exact aims, well we'd be pretty lonely.

[Marion]

[Donnie]

Why hasn't the anarchist federation spread into the United States? blink.gif
I'm too young to start one here in the States, but I think somebody certainly should.
Well there is an organisation that is similar to the AF in the US for example there is the North Eastern Federation of Anarcho-Communists but there "Platformist".
Also there is the South Californian Anarchist Federation who are Anarchist Communists.



1) I'm sure you get asked this all the time (well, perhaps not that often, but you get the idea) - what exactly is the difference between AFed and SolFed?
I work with a local SolFed group, some of my mates are SolFed members just like some of my other mates are AFers.
AF is Anarchist Communist and Solidarity Federation is Anarcho-Syndicalist.

[working_class_warrior]

are we talking about the SWP in the UK or US

[Forward Union]

Is that fair/correct or have I horribly misinterpreted things?

That's a fair analysis. Though I would stress that many members of the AF are opposed to syndicalist unions, in principal, not due to fears of corruption. "Even syndicalist unions are constrained by the fundamental nature of unionism. ...Their aim, through negotiation, is to achieve a fairer form of exploitation of the workforce" But yea, many afers aren;t that agreesive toward unions. Which is why we included "However, we do not argue for people to leave unions until they are made irrelevant by the revolutionary event. The union is a common point of departure for many workers. Rank and file initiatives may strengthen us in the battle for anarchist communism. " in the A&P



Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 07:18 PM
are we talking about the SWP in the UK or US
Uk, ;)

[Marion]

Cheers - thanks very much for your help!

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 08:28 PM
Cheers - thanks very much for your help!
no problem mate :)

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 07:18 PM
are we talking about the SWP in the UK or US
The UK. I am intersted to know are you an swp member in America, it's just that I sometimes read your paper the Militant, some people overe here, in the UK sell it.

By the way I will add that the SWP, UK or US are not reformists, much as i dislike much of their outlook.

[Donnie]

By the way I will add that the SWP, UK or US are not reformists, much as i dislike much of their outlook.
There the sappiest bunch of people I've ever seen and they have weak class struggle. They told us to vote Labour so that the Tories wouldn't get in, not to mention they are connected with Respect and Respect are therefore supporters of Islamic values and theses Islamic values generally consist of homphobic and sexist content not to mention the most reactionary idea ever the "God Idea".

Fuck em.

Class War!

[Enragé]

The thing is, that although we're not completely innocent, the SWP are incredibly sectarian. They don't even co-operate with other Trotskyist parties, and often slag eachother off, I think have even been known to get into the odd scuffle . The point is, if they can't co-operate with eachother, how can they co-oeprate with us? The anarchist federation does work with hundreds of other groups (obvious Class War and Solfed) but also many non-anarchist groups, like Stop the War and The Socialst party of Great britain.

Of course we often end up going to the same demos as the SWP, and other nutcase groups...

Hmm ok. Well we have an international socialist group over here, which is far from sectarian (perhaps because they're small :P ), so yeh that was more the kind of org i was thinking of, if the SWP is anything like what you say, they're pricks ;) (and i got no reason to doubt you)


"So what do we do to oppose this situation? Simply dream? Have an idea of freedom, which moreover must be carefully formulated, because we cannot say: "the freedom anarchists want is simply a reduction in control". In that case we would find ourselves faced with the problem: "But where does this reduction in control end?". At a minimal level perhaps? For example, would the State become legitimate for anarchists if instead of being the oppressor State of today, it were to become, let us say: the ideal minimal State of the liberals? No, certainly not. So that is not the way to think. It is not a question of trying to limit control, but of abolishing control altogether We are not for more freedom. More freedom is given to the slave when his chains are lengthened. We are for the abolition of the chain, so we are for freedom, not more freedom. Freedom means the absence of all chains, the absence of limits and all that ensues from such a statement."

err sure. But more freedom is the start of the road to complete freedom. Looser chains enable you to take more of a swing at the actual chains, increasing your chance of destroying 'em. For instance, in an orwellian society we wouldnt even be able to touch the establishment, but if we'd only get privacy, we could start a whole lot more than simply touching the establishment.

When i say that the palestinians should be free of their israeli imperialist oppressors i dont not mean thats the end of the story, no, it is n fact just the beginning...which is why we should support it.

[Janus]

So, what kind of actions is the AF involved in? And could you provide examples such as worker's action, strikes, etc.?

I don't live in the UK so you'll have to excuse my ignorance of the AF.

[Donnie]

So, what kind of actions is the AF involved in? And could you provide examples such as worker's action, strikes, etc.?
Well where doing stuff on defy ID at the moment, producing pamphlets and going to defy ID meetings etc.
AF members went as part of the autonomous workers block in London on Mayday. Some AF members also went to Paris to promote international solidarity.

As for strikes, bah, not with the anti-union laws lol. There's no such thing as a strike in Britain anymore.

The AF also helped in the formation of UK ANTIFA.

[Janus]

As for strikes, bah, not with the anti-union laws lol. There's no such thing as a strike in Britain anymore.
I see. So who do you work with then?

[Donnie]

I see. So who do you work with then?

Well we don't work with unions in Britain as there's no class struggle within them anymore, there so many back handers and compromises it's sickening.

If your talking about who do we work with as in organisation then, we work with Class War Federation, Defy ID, Anarchist networks, enviromental groups, anti-fasicist groups. We also work with other Anarchist Communist organisation on an international level like the Argentinian Anarchist Federation, then there's our International.
I work with a local anarcho-syndicalist worker group in my area thats federated into SolFed.

[Janus]

There are no strikes period? Strikes here are not always involved with an union.

[Enragé]

there was a strike a while back i believe, around the time of the big french strikes but i dont think anything substantial came out of it

also, were you at the demo against the israeli aggression saturday i believe?

[Lord Testicles]

Hate to necromance but I didn't see the point in starting another thread.

Just a few questions,

Class war and Afed, what’s the difference?

Does Class War or Afed have any groups in south Wales?