End Foreign Rule, Free Palestine! - Socialist Party of Michi

[Weidt]

End Foreign Rule, Free Palestine!

An official SPMI statement, adopted on April 28, 2003, concerning the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

The history of Palestine and the Palestinians has been marred by centuries of foreign occupation and repression, with their right to self-determination, equality, freedom, and peace denied. In the 20th Century alone, the Ottoman Empire, British Empire, Jordan and Egypt have each taken their turns at ruling the Palestinians.

In 1948, Israel was formed and became the fifth ruler, placing over 50 percent of Palestine under Zionist rule, though the Palestinians were the overwhelming majority. After the Israeli invasion of Egypt, Syria and Jordan in 1967, Israel conquered the remaining areas of Palestine: the Gaza Strip, West Bank and East Jerusalem. Both incidents created large waves of Palestinian refugees, accounting for one of the largest refugee populations in the world, who were, for the most part, terrorized and expelled by the Israeli Defense Forces.

Unlike the former rulers of Palestine, Israel is the only ruler to build permanent settlements, expropriate Palestinian land, request taxes while denying suffrage to the Palestinians, deny Palestinians access to roads, services and resources, create a massive refugee population and continue to occupy and rule the Palestinians who are denied legal status and live in limbo.

The Socialist Party of Michigan recognizes this historical plight of the Palestinians and supports their national right to be free from foreign control and to live in dignity. To this end, we demand:

1. The immediate, unconditional and unilateral withdrawal of the Israeli Defense Forces from all lands occupied in the 1967 invasion;

2. An end to the $3 billion a year aid given to Israel by the United States. The governments and corporations of the World, in particular those of the U.S., must also halt all sales of military and civilian equipment that could be used by Israel against the Palestinian people;

3. An immediate halt to settlement building, the expropriation of Palestinian land, the Jewish populating of Palestinian-majority cities for the purpose of creating Jewish-majorities and the Zionist ambitions to expel all Palestinians, with the ultimate aim of dismantling and evacuating the present settlements and pave the way for a viable Palestinian state, encompassing all of the territory occupied by Israel in 1967;

4. An immediate end to violence against all innocent, non-combatant civilians, in both Israel and the Occupied Territories, committed by either the Israeli Defense Forces or Palestinian guerrillas; the rights of civilian non-combatants must be protected at all times;

5. The immediate release of all conscientious objectors and political prisoners, both Israeli and Palestinian. Israel must respect the right to refrain from military or civil service, and the right to free speech, expression and protest;

6. The abolition of all discriminatory policies within Israel and the Occupied Territories against non-Israelis and non-Ashkenazi (European-origin) Israelis in regard to employment, housing, services, resources, permits and movement; no taxation without equal representation;

7. A solution to the Palestinian refugee problem: either compensation and reparations equivalent to the current value of all property lost at the time each person sought refuge, or immediate return with full restoration of property and citizenship rights, with all costs paid by the State of Israel;

8. The abolition of Zionism as the official ideology of the State of Israel, and the elimination of its theocratic-nationalist character. Zionism is a colonial, racist and xenophobic ideology that contradicts the essence of democracy, equality, freedom and secularism. The so-called "Jewish character" of Israel inhibits it from providing equality to all its citizens;

9. A democratic and secular Israel and Palestine living side-by-side in peace and cooperation, and hopefully working toward a unified federal republic. Israel should give to the newly formed State of Palestine all taxes collected from the Palestinians, since 1967, to be used to rebuild Palestine’s infrastructure and fund universal education and health care, and other social services.

The Socialist Party of Michigan supports the Palestinian struggle against Israeli occupation. We support armed resistance as a legitimate means of self-defense, aimed at ending the occupation. We also support and encourage worldwide demonstrations, strikes, rallies, boycotts and divestment actions, and the use of civil disobedience and other non-violent means and cooperation between all ethnic, national and religious groups to end the occupation and achieve peace and security for everyone in the region.

[Vinny Rafarino]

This thread already exists, entitled "palestine"
same forum.

[Zombie]

Weidt, you should know that similar resolutions were presented by the U.N. over the past decades and they were practically all vetoed by the U.S.

In other words, those demands will probably never see daylight. Mainly because of Uncle Sam.

I don't think we should start another thread on the subject, but the article was very good nevertheless.

Maybe could you post it again in the "palestine" thread?

.A.

(Edited by Zombie at 12:40 am on May 28, 2003)

[Sinistra]

Why , all of you are always demanding that israel does this , and it has to do this .... why isn't anybody demanding from the palestenians to stop the daily killing of israely sitizens .

i am not talking about palestenians who get in the crosfire between thr IDF and others . i mean the killing , the murder of israely civilians by purpose.

[Sinistra]

can you tell me when was there a palestenian state ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????

[Zombie]

the murder of israely civilians by purpose

ON PURPOSE??? ON PURPOSE????
DOES THE WORD 'RETALIATION' EVER CROSSED YOUR MIND???

[abstractmentality]

Quote: from Sinistra on 11:41 pm on May 27, 2003

can you tell me when was there a palestenian state ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????

what relevance does this have to the discussion at hand?

the indigenous peoples of america didnt have a "state" in western terminology, but does that make their claim to where they live any less valid? does their not having a "westernized" state mean that they do not have the right to that land?

[Sinistra]

nooooooooo.

i am just saying that there had never been a palestenian state between jordan and the river , on the other hand there was the kingdome of israel .

ZOMBIE , i am sorry that my english doesn't please you , i just hope that your , arabic , hebrew or german pleases me . (snob)

[Vinny Rafarino]

Sinistra,

I am going to say this once and then never respond to any of your useless babblings again. You are an absolute discrace to humanity who knows nothing of actual history. You are not even unfamiliar with the history in your own region. Every statement you make is guileless and infantile. Please do me a favour however, keep posting. Your frivolous prattling will make even the most loyal Zionist abandon Isreal as not to be amaglamated with you in any way.

Now I will use terms even you will understand.

Fuck Off.

Julian

[Sinistra]

I am sorry , i didn;t realise that i am taking to mr phd in middle eastern history .
there is know one here that knows the history of the middle east better than i do .
if i don't know anything , can you show me one mistake ??

[scott thesocialist]

if you 2 what to argue then so be it but do it on your own thread please cause i don't what to write your fucking arguments
thank you

[scott thesocialist]

sorry i meant read your fucking arguments!
thank you

[Vinny Rafarino]

thanks for your insight scott.

[chamo]

Quote: from Sinistra on 9:36 am on May 28, 2003

ZOMBIE , i am sorry that my english doesn't please you , i just hope that your , arabic , hebrew or german pleases me . (snob)



Quite, I don't think Zombie was referring to your disharmonious English. I think your assumed this because he said, "on puropse". You presumptuous idiot.

[Zombie]

HappyG was spot on the money. I wasn't trying to correct you, I was trying to make a statement. Are you that blind?

[El Che]

Quote: from Sinistra on 7:41 am on May 28, 2003

can you tell me when was there a palestenian state ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????


Translation: The Palestinians have always been denied the right to self determination, why do we (Isrealies) have to behave any differently??????????????????????????????????????? ????

Can`t we oppress them as well? please??

[Weidt]

Quote: from Sinistra on 2:38 am on May 28, 2003

.... why isn't anybody demanding from the palestenians to stop the daily killing of israely sitizens.

It was covered, please read...

4. An immediate end to violence against all innocent, non-combatant civilians, in both Israel and the Occupied Territories, committed by either the Israeli Defense Forces or Palestinian guerrillas; the rights of civilian non-combatants must be protected at all times;

[abstractmentality]

i am just saying that there had never been a palestenian state between jordan and the river , on the other hand there was the kingdome of israel . -Sinistra

ok, if that is all you wanted to say, then i see in no way how that added to this conversation. essentially, that was a wasted post. that argument has been used by many as an attempt to delegitimize the palestinian claim to their land, and i thought that was what you were doing. if so, then i hope i have brought something to combat that common argument.

if my memory serves me right, then the Irish didnt have western thoughts on ownership of property, and their land was also basically stolen from them as well. the indigenous of america, for what i know, did not have that concept either, and their land was stolen. The Huorani of Ecuador have been going through the same thing, except they are competing against oil companies. your reference to the fact that their was never a state called palestine means nothing.

[IHP]

Don't bother arguing with Sinistra he is just a racist. I duked it out with for about 5 pages, and he said, if memory serves me correctly, something like: "Islam is the worst thing to have been created in the last two thousand years".

Jules; Well said.

Good post abstract.

--IHP

[abstractmentality]

thanx IHP.

yea, i remember that thread well, and i remember some of the things sinistra said. all of this "discussion" with sinistra is all in vain, i just thought i would write a little on the issue, so as to not leave his statement out their with no reply.

[IHP]

Yeah, fair enough. It's hard to sit by and let ignorance and bigotry go unchecked. :)

--IHP

[Sinistra]

when i said that there had never been a paletenian state , i forgot to mention the fact that there was a jewish state . before there were even arabs in this area .

[Pete]

Lol Sinistra.

There was a Palestinian state, well Muslim state. It was part of the Caliph and the Mameluk Empire in addition to the Ottoman Empire. All of those bodies are Muslim, and the last fell less than 100 years ago. The jews had a state, yes, but what 2000 years ago? The last Diapora (sp) was something like 30AD for fucks sake!

Anyways even if you go to the religion arguement the Muslims have the Jews beat. I think Israel will be crushed, driven into the sea persae. It's coming don't deny it.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

I still don't get why people mention the historic aspect of ancient Israel to justify present day Israel.

For one thing the vast mayority of jews that now populate the territory are european.

But the real israelies were a native asian population.

I still can't understand why a polish man for example would have more right to live in Israel then an arab that has been living in that region all his life.

I know that right now most israelies are born in israel but in the begining It was an invasion. That can't be denied.

[Zombie]

I still can't understand why a polish man for example would have more right to live in Israel then an arab that has been living in that region all his life.

Who said Israel wasn't a racist state?

I'll repeat this one more time : THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT POLITICS FOR FUCK SAKE!

[Pete]

He was just pointing out the flaws in other people's arguements there Zombie :) We know there is more than politics at play.

[Zombie]

I knew what he meant don't worry, I wasn't attacking him or anything. I just felt taking the occasion to repeat myself one more time, that's all.

I do believe however, that we should continue any discussion in the other thread, would I be wrong?

[Pete]

No, I prefer teh other thread as well.

[Sinistra]

exactly , there was no palestenian state , there were muslim empires , colonialists empires . the omayan empire , abasian empire , mamlokian empire and only later the othoman empire .
that just makes my point stronger , there wasn't , never , ever , an arab palestenian state . the arabs concured palestine in 648 , and it was a part of the the damascus state .

for you information the polish jew are the same jews which lived in israel 2000 years ( proven by DNA ) .
the jews have been persecuded for the last 2000 years , don't you think that it is time that they come back home ?

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Sinistra by DNA we all come from Africa so what is your point?

The real jews that live in the times of the pharaos are gone and mixed with other cultures you can't justify settlers having more rights than arabs.

[abstractmentality]

Sinistra:
Yes, i think they should have a state, but when that state comes ahead of the interest of the people currently living there, than that is called racism. it is to say that these people deserve this land more than these people. it is to say that these people have a right over these people for this land. Here is some writing from Balfour two years after he wrote the Balfour declaration:
"The contradiction between the letter of the Covenant and the policy of the Allies is even more flagrant in the case of the independent nation of Palestine than in that of the independent nation of Syria. For in Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country, though the American [King-Crane] Commission has been going through the form of asking what they are. The four great powers are committed to Zioniam and Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long tradition, in present need, in future hopes, of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land"

so harsh.

[Sinistra]

they jews have one state , the arabs have 16 . don;t you think that they have enough states .
the excistence of israel doesn't come before the rights of the people who were living there .

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from Sinistra on 5:08 pm on June 4, 2003
they jews have one state , the arabs have 16 . don;t you think that they have enough states .


How many states do the PALESTINIANS have?

[Reuben]

GB is right. Would it be legitimate, sinistra, to subvert the national rights of the french because there are a number of other christian european states? of course not, and similarly the palestinians have a right to self determination within ther homeland.

[Sinistra]

why cant the take Jordan ?

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from Sinistra on 1:36 pm on June 5, 2003

why cant the take Jordan ?


This a very uneducated comment you should at least understand that being arab is one thing and having your own country is another.

Why can't they take Jordan well because Jordan is an independant nation.

And the Palestinians want a state where they will be able to rule themselves.

If you take time to study this you would see these are the same reasons why Israel was created.

So jews can govern themselves.

[Sinistra]

no one can tell me here to study anything , i know better than all of you about the history of this fucked up region .

if YOU would study you se that almost up to 100 years ago there was no such thing of palestenians , there were arabs , palestenians were only a part of the great arab nation , or great syria , only when the jews started to see palestine as there home , the locals arabs developed the palestenian nationalism .

if you would study you would see that jordan was a part of palestine up until 1922 . because the british had a deal with prince feisal , that they would give him syria after ww1 , but they had also promised the french , so the frenck kiked feisal out , and he went to Iraq , were his brother abdulah was . so the british , fearing a war between their aliase created a new kingdome for abdulah ( that kingdome was taken from palestine , and it was almost 80% of palestine ) .

[Pete]

The ottomon empire ruled the area from the late 1500's until 1918. They where a TURKISH STATE not an Arab state. ANd you say we are uneducated.

You can have your imperialism, and you can have your colonialism, and you can have your racism. I don't give a shit. Keep those and stop posting out side of the Oppossing Ideologies forum!

[Sinistra]

i didn't say that there was an arab state , i said that there was a colective arab dream,

[Pete]

if YOU would study you se that almost up to 100 years ago there was no such thing of palestenians , there were arabs , palestenians were only a part of the great arab nation

[Sinistra]

nation is not ment as a country , but as an ethnic group .
believe me you don't know the histrory of this region beter than i do .

[Pete]

I never said I did.

But you seem convinced in your ways. So take my advice. Supporting Israel is like supporting England circa 1764.

[Sinistra]

no , suporting israel is like suporting the Irish in theit strugle for freedome .

[Pete]

How so? Artifically carving a state, out of the land of another national group, based on immigrants is a lot closer to what was done by the English after the fall of Quebec than Ireland. The Palestinians are fighting off foriegn invaders, making them closer to the Irish.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

They way Sinistra puts race before human rights really makes me think he suports racism.

[abstractmentality]

"the excistence of israel doesn't come before the rights of the people who were living there . " -sinistra

did you not read the Balfour quote i wrote there?

again, i ask, what relavance does the non-existence of a "country" of Palestine prior to Israel have to do with anything? ill tell you what it has to do with it, nothing! and your referencing to Jordan as the Palestinian state really does piss me off. You know, i have friends whose family members were forced to leave Palestine and go to Jordan in 1948 when it turned into israel. im sure they wouldnt like that statement very much.

"no , suporting israel is like suporting the Irish in theit strugle for freedome . " - Sinistra

LOL. that had to be the funniest things i have heard all day. Look at the Irish Republican Socialist party (http://www.irsm.org) and see how much they dont agree with you. for a quick read, check out this statement (http://www.irsm.org/statements/irsp/archive/011213.html) from them from 2001. here is a small quote "We in the Irish Republican Socialist Party join with all those around the world who seek liberation and social justice in condemning the ongoing assault by the Zionist killing machine."

(Edited by abstractmentality at 5:01 pm on June 5, 2003)

[scott thesocialist]

sinistra it seems to me that you don't really know really know what you are talking about, i'm not saying that i know better but you don't prove any points? whats the point in talking about 100 years ago, you could do that with any country or continent. the fact is that the land belongs to the palestinians even Sharon admits this so instead of talking about something that HAS happended lets talk about what SHOULD be done.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from scott thesocialist on 12:43 pm on June 6, 2003
sinistra it seems to me that you don't really know really know what you are talking about, i'm not saying that i know better but you don't prove any points? whats the point in talking about 100 years ago, you could do that with any country or continent. the fact is that the land belongs to the palestinians even Sharon admits this so instead of talking about something that HAS happended lets talk about what SHOULD be done.

Well by the same logic whats the point in talking about 50 years ago which is done quite a lot in this subject?

[scott thesocialist]

because 50 years ago israel stole the land and caused the problem we are talking about now! not what happened 100 or more years ago!