How Is Religion Used To Keep Us Down?

[R_P_A_S]

How exactly is religion used by capitalist, and including our selves to keep us down, to oppress out being. can you give me some examples?

Where the people who wrote the bible capitalist?

[RevMARKSman]

"Don't care about your shit proletarian life, don't try to make it better because you'll be all happy and content in heaven."

That just about sums it up.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 10:39 PM
"Don't care about your shit proletarian life, don't try to make it better because you'll be all happy and content in heaven."

That just about sums it up.
LOL. nice. anymore?

[which doctor]

It keeps with our hands folded together and heads down in church instead of out rioting in the streets.

[Connolly]

How exactly is religion used by capitalist, and including our selves to keep us down, to oppress out being. can you give me some examples?

Its not used purposely by the capitalist class to oppress the working class - the capitalist class themselves are followers of religion too.

Religion, by its obsolete teachings is inherently reactionary.

The development of class consciousness amongst the working class entails seeing what sort of society we can create, and what those steps are to accomplish it.

If the workers are following the old bullshit tripe of religion - that we are inherently flawed and greedy etc - how can we possibly create communism which such misunderstanding.

Communism calls for the breakup of the existing family structure - which religion defends.

Communism calls for the destruction of hierarchy - which religion defends.

Religion, most importantly, divides the working class rather than unifying them.

Religion, historically, has always been on the side of reaction - Spanish Civil war for example, christian support of Hitler etc etc.

Its not that its oppressive - it is in many ways amongst individual rights - particularly those of women - but its just anti progressive - thats it.


Where the people who wrote the bible capitalist?

No. capitalsim did not exist during the birth of the christianity.

The person who wrote the bible was simply reacting to his conditions of existance.

Remember that there were tonnes of preachers claiming to heal etc at that time. Only a handful made it to becoming mainstream whwn adopted by various states for justification.

The origional births of religion, I suspect, were not doing it out of maliciousness - just ignorance of their encvironmental conditions. Some time later, religion was used for political gain and wealth creation - and an exuse to excert class dominiance of others.

Hope that answers your questions :)

[Eleutherios]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+Jul 19 2006, 10:34 PM--> (R_P_A_S @ Jul 19 2006, 10:34 PM) How exactly is religion used by capitalist, and including our selves to keep us down, to oppress out being. can you give me some examples? [/b]
The Catholic Church demands tithes from its followers, requiring them to spend more time trudging away in wage slavery, and spends the money on gigantic elaborate cathedrals, all the luxuries the Pope could ever need, and campaigns to urge abstinence and fight contraceptives in AIDS-ravaged Africa.

The Church of Scientology slowly brainwashes members with a bunch of pseudoscientific nonsense in incremental steps, revealing to them more and more of the sacred dogma as long as they keep shelling out more and more money.

The Hindu belief in a caste system divides people into a hierarchical system of groups based on one's familial lineage and occupation. These different castes, unsurprisingly, conflict with each other. Dividing workers up by occupation like that is a very effective way to prevent any real class consciousness from arising.

And I bet you're well aware of the ways Islamic theocracies use Shari'a law to oppress women and gays as well as stamp out free speech.

Where the people who wrote the bible capitalist?
No, they lived in a pre-capitalist society. Capitalism has only been around for a couple centuries. But the Bible is pretty clear where it stands on workers' self-management (this is all New Testament stuff, mind you).

Originally posted by Ephesians 6:5+--> (Ephesians 6:5)Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ[/b]

Originally posted by Colossians 3:22
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God

Originally posted by 1 Timothy 6:1
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

2 Titus 2:9-[email protected]
Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;

Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

1 Peter 2:18
Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Of course religion is "reactionary". It's supposed to be that way, and has been, since day 1, way back when.

What exactly is wrong with being reactionary? Or atleast in certain situations? As I am sure that some of you here are quite reactionary on certain topics and issues?

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 20 2006, 01:01 PM
What exactly is wrong with being reactionary?
Being reactionary stands in the way of human progress and as such is something we should all oppose.


Or atleast in certain situations? As I am sure that some of you here are quite reactionary on certain topics and issues?Name one situation where preventing the progress of humanity is justified. I'm sure we are all reactionary by the standards of a future, enlightened, society but as far as I can see we try to avoid being reactionary as much as possible.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Jazzrat
Name one situation where preventing the progress of humanity is justified.

Yeah i dunno, 'progress' is a very subjective term - it's been abused throughout history to justify things ranging from genocide to needless enviromental destruction.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Black Dagger+Jul 20 2006, 02:13 PM--> (Black Dagger @ Jul 20 2006, 02:13 PM)
Jazzrat
Name one situation where preventing the progress of humanity is justified.

Yeah i dunno, 'progress' is a very subjective term - it's been abused throughout history to justify things ranging from genocide to needless enviromental destruction. [/b]
I was talking about progress in the sense of going from a backward society to an enlightened one, not as the advancement of a paticular cause.

[John Dory]

If you're looking for examples of how religion is keeping the people down you need to look no further than the struggle for the liberation of women and the obstacles that religion has put in its way. There is at least one thread dedicated to this subject.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by JazzRat
I was talking about progress in the sense of going from a backward society to an enlightened one, not as the advancement of a paticular cause.


I understand, and as i said, the term 'progress' is incredibly subjective and historically loaded. From an historical POV, 'progress' is closely tied with European notions of cultural and racial superiority - colonialism, and christianisation for example were regarded as helping non-european 'progress' - to lift the wretched 'natives' of the earth out of their savagery and into, as you quite aptly say, 'enlightened' society.

[Tarik]

The Apartheid was set up and applied with the justification of the Church, and in the way of capitalism as they said ("Black people were a heaviness to the economy so the Apartheid was the solution to increase the development as it can occult and exploit the poors).
That's an example to the relations between capitalism and religion, or rather how capitalism use the religion.
Capitalism use the religion when things can turn in their advantages

[Postteen]

Organised religion has so much power, it can create nations!Religion as a philosophic theory,doesnt want people to stuggle for their everyday life because they all say that in another life you'll be justified.All the suffer you went through (from your bosses and from anyone) will become happiness in heaven.Just go to a church and listen to what the priests say.This power that religion has can be used and it is used by the capitalist oppressers.Because they want the people to be like sheep and of course because priests want a part of the authority.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Also lots of the feudal monarchs were appointed by "god".

When, in actual fact we, and modern theists, know they were not.

Modern theists will simply change their own "interpretation" of their religion for it to fit in within society.

For example, in america, at least in films and shit, people giving evidence in court would swear on the holy bible. Somthing factual, evidence based and critical is lowered to the level of a fictional book, purely because of the reverance it has recieved in the past.

[Rawthentic]

Religion allows us not to seek truth but to obey some abstract form created in our minds which in turn creates passivism amongst the masses. It makes them dependent on some fictional being and they give thanks to god for everything instead of taking it as it really is.

[chimx]

Religion, by its obsolete teachings is inherently reactionary.

....

Communism calls for the destruction of hierarchy - which religion defends.

....

Religion, historically, has always been on the side of reaction - Spanish Civil war for example, christian support of Hitler etc etc.


3 quick points. how is religion inherently reactionary? speaking of christianity, it was born out of the idea of defying roman oppression, which is hardly reactive. while i agree that institutions within any religion can be reactive, i would say that is the byproduct of power structures which have grown inside of the church, and reaction exists to defend these structures--but that is hardly inherent to religion. i would like to hear what you have to say about the reformation. was martin luther's attacks on these reactionary religious power structures in itself reactionary? how so? people throw around the term "reactionary" a lot without a proper explanation.

while power structures have grown inside many religious institutions, the catholic church being an excellent example. christian scripture is quite critical of earthly hierarchy. while it certainly defends the role of god as a hierarchical figurehead, god isn't a material reality and to judge him in the same breath as one would a boss or politico seems illogical. despite this, jesus is quite clear when he says that all governments are tools of satan and should not be followed. the passage is in luke chapter 4 somewhere.

historically power structures within the church have defended the political reaction because it assisted in maintaining religious hierarchy, but as i said above, that is hardly inherent to religion itself, and you have yet to show how it is inherent. what of latin america's liberation theology movement? it has been quite progressive and worked to assist many poor and dispossessed.

[Vargha Poralli]

Certainly religion developed when man found it tooo difficult to understand certain natural phenomenon like lightning thunder rains etc in the prehistoric ages.These things frightened him so religion naturally grew out of fear.andreligion still thrives bcos that same old fear still haunts man.


The Catholic Church demands tithes from its followers, requiring them to spend more time trudging away in wage slavery, and spends the money on gigantic elaborate cathedrals, all the luxuries the Pope could ever need, and campaigns to urge abstinence and fight contraceptives in AIDS-ravaged Africa.

The Church of Scientology slowly brainwashes members with a bunch of pseudoscientific nonsense in incremental steps, revealing to them more and more of the sacred dogma as long as they keep shelling out more and more money.

The Hindu belief in a caste system divides people into a hierarchical system of groups based on one's familial lineage and occupation. These different castes, unsurprisingly, conflict with each other. Dividing workers up by occupation like that is a very effective way to prevent any real class consciousness from arising.

And I bet you're well aware of the ways Islamic theocracies use Shari'a law to oppress women and gays as well as stamp out free speech


Completly agree with sennomulo here.

A christian or muslim worker will never question his religions belief system bcos he fears that he might go to hell after dying. A hindu worker will not question his bcos he might be born as a pig or a dog or worse a an untouchable in his rebirth.

[NantenWolf]

despite this, jesus is quite clear when he says that all governments are tools of satan and should not be followed. the passage is in luke chapter 4 somewhere.

Yet there is this passage:


Originally posted by "Romans 13: 1-7"+--> ("Romans 13: 1-7")Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.[/b]

EDIT: I believe this is the section of Luke you were talking about:


"Luke 4: 5-8"
The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. So if you worship me, it will all be yours."

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"

So, when read with Romans, Jesus was not preaching against the authorities, since according to Paul's writings, authorities are appointed by God. Of course, you could reject what Paul says, but then you would have to throw out the Bible. Christianity relies upon the belief that the Bible is complete and accurate as-is, as decided by the early church.

[Tommy-K]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 11:05 PM
It keeps with our hands folded together and heads down in church instead of out rioting in the streets.
Precisely. This dates back right to the Middle Ages. The educated and the upper classes used religion to put the fear of God into the lower classes to stop them revolting. That's why it was only written in Latin back then. So only the educated upper classes would be able to preach it, thus scaring the working classes shitless and suddenly all ideas of fighting back against the oppressive upper classes went out the window because they were all in fear of God and what he would do to them. It was either fight and go to hell or grin and bear it and God will reserve you a nice place in heaven.

[Akira]

There is nothing wrong with the conceptions of spirituality or religion.

Man admires creation which created him and his whole world that substains himself and his own reality.

Such a creation is worth to be revered.

[Tommy-K]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 07:01 AM
There is nothing wrong with the conceptions of spirituality or religion.
Apart from the fact that these conceptions cause global oppression.


Man admires creation which created him and his whole world that substains himself and his own reality.

I admire Charles Darwin and the Big Bang Theory for more or less proving that the world and it's inhabitants WEREN'T created by some 'higher power'.


Such a creation is worth to be revered.

I agree. Woo for Natural Selection and the Big Bang Theory!

[Hooligan32]

Many religions clearly have a black and white idea of ultimate good vs. ultimate evil inherent in their teachings. It is this sort of backwards logic and segregatory education that makes it very easy for followers to paint their "enemies" in crimson red and to develop an attitude of condescention, or "hollier than thou" attitude, if you will. When you believe that you are going to a heaven and that anyone who disagrees with your religions teachings is going to a hell you can hardly make any real progress.

[Darth Revan]

Yes look at the middle east the radical organizations such as the Al-Qaeda are using Islam as a way to turn people to their cause. And the crusades in the middle ages were used by kings and the church to rescue holy sites of christianity but in realty the used the people to get their goal and that was conquest of new lands

[Orion999]

Many religions clearly have a black and white idea of ultimate good vs. ultimate evil inherent in their teachings. It is this sort of backwards logic and segregatory education that makes it very easy for followers to paint their "enemies" in crimson red and to develop an attitude of condescention, or "hollier than thou" attitude, if you will. When you believe that you are going to a heaven and that anyone who disagrees with your religions teachings is going to a hell you can hardly make any real progress.



Ya kind of like the view around here of absolute evil (capitalists) vs. absolute good (communists). Your right this backword logic makes no sense. Just like communists "holier than thou" attitude towards all those who disagree with them. Apply this logic towards your own ideaology and you may yet be saved from communist utopian ideaology.

[afrikaNOW]

Originally posted by Tommy-K+Sep 3 2006, 06:58 PM--> (Tommy-K @ Sep 3 2006, 06:58 PM)
[email protected] 1 2006, 07:01 AM
There is nothing wrong with the conceptions of spirituality or religion.
Apart from the fact that these conceptions cause global oppression.


Man admires creation which created him and his whole world that substains himself and his own reality.

I admire Charles Darwin and the Big Bang Theory for more or less proving that the world and it's inhabitants WEREN'T created by some 'higher power'.


Such a creation is worth to be revered.

I agree. Woo for Natural Selection and the Big Bang Theory! [/b]
LMAO

Spirituality and Religion causes oppression?

How bout classism, capitalism and imperialism?
or they just take a backseat to religion.

[worldtradeisadeathmachine]

Religion has always been used to keep us down. It's always been black and white.

Here in Wales,a couple of hundred years ago if you didn't go to church every Sunday (Either Catholic or Protestant- depends who was in power really)- you were fined.

This dates back to the middle ages, and the eduacted and priveleged ones used the Bible/religion in general to keep the pesants in their place to stop them revolting against how shit the state was. They used this thing when they said that since God had put them on the throne, that they were Selected by God, the divine chosen, itself to govern the country. So basically, if you disagreed with the king or the queen you'd be disagreeing with God. That wasn't a clever thing to do back then. When the Bible got written into English, the upper classes were fucking terrified, because they didn't know what to do. And when people got education more avadible, the upper class were even more terrified them before, because finally people could have free speech, but it was basically, fight, and God hates you so you're put in hell or be a good little boy and obey the Monarchy and you'll go to heaven.

[Tommy-K]

Originally posted by afrikaNOW+Sep 13 2006, 01:14 PM--> (afrikaNOW @ Sep 13 2006, 01:14 PM)
Originally posted by Tommy-[email protected] 3 2006, 06:58 PM

[email protected] 1 2006, 07:01 AM
There is nothing wrong with the conceptions of spirituality or religion.
Apart from the fact that these conceptions cause global oppression.


Man admires creation which created him and his whole world that substains himself and his own reality.

I admire Charles Darwin and the Big Bang Theory for more or less proving that the world and it's inhabitants WEREN'T created by some 'higher power'.


Such a creation is worth to be revered.

I agree. Woo for Natural Selection and the Big Bang Theory!
LMAO

Spirituality and Religion causes oppression?

How bout classism, capitalism and imperialism?
or they just take a backseat to religion. [/b]
They don't take a backseat to religion. At no point did I say that. But religion does cause oppression.

Christians have been oppressing Muslims for longer than anyone can care to remember.

Think of all the wars started on the grounds of religion. How about the Iraqi civil war? Between the Shiite and Sunni Muslims. Or, specific to Christianity, the Crusades???? That was one of the most oppressive movements in history, and it was all down to religion.

The Crusades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_crusades)