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R_P_A_S
18th July 2006, 19:32
Growing up with a faith like Catholic and Christian we are taught that sin is bad, and if we sin we'll go to hell. but aren't we lucky that jesus & god are such forgiving guys?. they gives us the chance to repent and to forgives us for all our sins. My question is. How do you make people turn their lives around. How do you make people who are "bad" see "the light" change things for themselves with out the typical "god will punish you" or "repent now and be save your soul"

for example... An abusive husband who hits and treats his wife like an animal. Or a person who is disrespectful and selfish takes from others and hurts them.

What other ways are there for people to change with out bringing the fear of god, or hell. etc?

Jazzratt
18th July 2006, 19:36
If you need a monster under your bed to hate you and an invisible sky wizard to love you for you to be a moral person then you're looking at morality wrong. An entirely atheistic morality system would work just as well, the only requisite for 'penance' is that you stop doing what you consider wrong and start doing what is right. A morality borne of fear is not a real morality.

Eleutherios
18th July 2006, 19:37
Well, we could start by showing people the consequences of their actions, and punishing them if they harm others. Telling people "you can do whatever horrible things you want as long as you beg for forgiveness from the magical sky wizard" only makes things worse.

violencia.Proletariat
18th July 2006, 21:15
for example... An abusive husband who hits and treats his wife like an animal. Or a person who is disrespectful and selfish takes from others and hurts them.

Shoot the bastard.

Connolly
18th July 2006, 22:17
An abusive husband who hits and treats his wife like an animal.

Its all about the root causes of these things. Why, for example, does the husband treat his wife like an animal?

You would have to know the circumstances as to why. Surely, it cant be some sort of "natural" thing can it?

Therefore - it must be a material circumstance - something that can be changed.

Plus - you take the single couple as the basis for this point. It can be expected that such "pairing" will no longer be necessary - have sex with whoever you want.


Or a person who is disrespectful and selfish takes from others and hurts them.

Again - is this some attribute of human nature or are there actual material circumstances that cause people to act in these ways.

Selfishness is like greed - it is not just "human nature", but rather the reaction to circumstance.


What other ways are there for people to change with out bringing the fear of god, or hell. etc

People will change as their material circumstances change. God has nothing to do with it, and, infact, is an invention due to material circumstances.


Its difficult to answer this because I expect religion to be a thing of the pasty
in a communist society.

"Being determines consciousness"

Janus
18th July 2006, 22:41
What other ways are there for people to change with out bringing the fear of god, or hell. etc?
Tackling these issues during the childhood phase would be very important. I think the behaviorists were right about some of these things.

R_P_A_S
18th July 2006, 22:48
Originally posted by The [email protected] 18 2006, 07:18 PM

An abusive husband who hits and treats his wife like an animal.

Its all about the root causes of these things. Why, for example, does the husband treat his wife like an animal?

You would have to know the circumstances as to why. Surely, it cant be some sort of "natural" thing can it?

Therefore - it must be a material circumstance - something that can be changed.

Plus - you take the single couple as the basis for this point. It can be expected that such "pairing" will no longer be necessary - have sex with whoever you want.


[/quote]
how about he's an insecure prick who believes that men are the superior race over women? and he thinks that women are supposed to obey and do anything and everything that the man says? have sex at his orders, get smack if she talks back, cant have friends, or dress sexy.

LSD
19th July 2006, 00:05
My question is. How do you make people turn their lives around. How do you make people who are "bad" see "the light" change things for themselves with out the typical "god will punish you" or "repent now and be save your soul"

By treating human beings like rational individuals and explaining the harm that they are causing.

Even better, of course, is to start from the begining and not allow them to become indoctrinated or socialized into accepting destructive behaviour patterns. Ironically, enough, that requires the elimination of religion just as much as it does sexism or racism.


how about he's an insecure prick who believes that men are the superior race over women? and he thinks that women are supposed to obey and do anything and everything that the man says? have sex at his orders, get smack if she talks back, cant have friends, or dress sexy.

The point you seem to be missing thought is that more often than not religion actually promotes those kind of values, rather than opposes them.

The Christian church, for most of its history, has tolerated if not outright encouraged spousal abuse. And even today, it continues to push the so-called "traditional" family in which women are instiutionaly subjugated to their husbands.

The problem with religion as social control, you see, is that by their nature, religious moral codes are stagnant. Because they profess to be "devine" and "sacred", they cannot change to meet actual social needs.

This is why religious forces are so often allied with the most reactionary social agents arouind. It's why it's the religious right that's pushing against homosexuality; it's why the patriarchal campaign against women's sexual and reproductive rights has so much traction among religious individuals.

In the short run, appealing to "God" may serve to keep order, but over time, it will inevitable cause more harm and destruction than it prevents. If it isn't anachronistic religious "morality"; it's conflicts between various "moralities" over which one best reflects the "mind" of whatever superstitious deity one is appealing to.

Again, religion is an enemy of social progress, not a means towards it. Unless we establish a rational and secular society, no amount of "forgiveness" or "repenting" will make people "toe the line".

Eleutherios
19th July 2006, 08:54
Originally posted by R_P_A_S+Jul 18 2006, 07:49 PM--> (R_P_A_S @ Jul 18 2006, 07:49 PM) how about he's an insecure prick who believes that men are the superior race over women? and he thinks that women are supposed to obey and do anything and everything that the man says? have sex at his orders, get smack if she talks back, cant have friends, or dress sexy. [/b]
LSD is right. Christianity is definitely not going to help this man. He'll open up his Bible and he won't even finish the third chapter before he reads:

Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he [God] said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

R_P_A_S
19th July 2006, 10:12
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 09:06 PM

My question is. How do you make people turn their lives around. How do you make people who are "bad" see "the light" change things for themselves with out the typical "god will punish you" or "repent now and be save your soul"

By treating human beings like rational individuals and explaining the harm that they are causing.

Even better, of course, is to start from the begining and not allow them to become indoctrinated or socialized into accepting destructive behaviour patterns. Ironically, enough, that requires the elimination of religion just as much as it does sexism or racism.


how about he's an insecure prick who believes that men are the superior race over women? and he thinks that women are supposed to obey and do anything and everything that the man says? have sex at his orders, get smack if she talks back, cant have friends, or dress sexy.

The point you seem to be missing thought is that more often than not religion actually promotes those kind of values, rather than opposes them.

The Christian church, for most of its history, has tolerated if not outright encouraged spousal abuse. And even today, it continues to push the so-called "traditional" family in which women are instiutionaly subjugated to their husbands.

The problem with religion as social control, you see, is that by their nature, religious moral codes are stagnant. Because they profess to be "devine" and "sacred", they cannot change to meet actual social needs.

This is why religious forces are so often allied with the most reactionary social agents arouind. It's why it's the religious right that's pushing against homosexuality; it's why the patriarchal campaign against women's sexual and reproductive rights has so much traction among religious individuals.

In the short run, appealing to "God" may serve to keep order, but over time, it will inevitable cause more harm and destruction than it prevents. If it isn't anachronistic religious "morality"; it's conflicts between various "moralities" over which one best reflects the "mind" of whatever superstitious deity one is appealing to.

Again, religion is an enemy of social progress, not a means towards it. Unless we establish a rational and secular society, no amount of "forgiveness" or "repenting" will make people "toe the line".
you have some great points there comrade that's even scary! this one fool told me that it even says in the bible and when you get married that she is to obey and serve him till death due them apart... so to hims this justifies the way he treats her.

Eleutherios
19th July 2006, 10:17
It's true. This is what the early followers of Jesus thought about women:

Originally posted by Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/eph/5.html#22