To My Arab Brothers: The War With Israel Is Over —

[theraven]

http://jewishworldreview.com/0706/ibrahim.php3


To my Arab brothers: The War with Israel Is Over — and they won. Now let's finally move forward

By Youssef M. Ibrahim




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http://www.JewishWorldReview.com | With Israel entering its fourth week of an incursion into the same Gaza Strip it voluntarily evacuated a few months ago, a sense of reality among Arabs is spreading through commentary by Arab pundits, letters to the editor, and political talk shows on Arabic-language TV networks. The new views are stunning both in their maturity and in their realism. The best way I can think of to convey them is in the form of a letter to the Palestinian Arabs from their Arab friends:


Dear Palestinian Arab brethren:


The war with Israel is over.


You have lost. Surrender and negotiate to secure a future for your children.


We, your Arab brothers, may say until we are blue in the face that we stand by you, but the wise among you and most of us know that we are moving on, away from the tired old idea of the Palestinian Arab cause and the "eternal struggle" with Israel.


Dear friends, you and your leaders have wasted three generations trying to fight for Palestine, but the truth is the Palestine you could have had in 1948 is much bigger than the one you could have had in 1967, which in turn is much bigger than what you may have to settle for now or in another 10 years. Struggle means less land and more misery and utter loneliness.


At the moment, brothers, you would be lucky to secure a semblance of a state in that Gaza Strip into which you have all crowded, and a small part of the West Bank of the Jordan. It isn't going to get better. Time is running out even for this much land, so here are some facts, figures, and sound advice, friends.

read it all-what do you think?

[Rex]

It's from the jewish world review. It sounds like the jews might be getting scared.

[STI]

I don't think any American reporter writing for Jewish World Review, Egyptian-born or not, is in any position to be trusted to honestly and accurately determine the collective best interest of the entire Middle East.

Nor do I think Mr. Ibrahim has fully thought out the implications of his little position.


We, your Arab brothers, may say until we are blue in the face that we stand by you, but the wise among you and most of us know that we are moving on, away from the tired old idea of the Palestinian Arab cause and the "eternal struggle" with Israel.

Reading that just made me green in the face.

What exactly makes Palestinian national identity and independence "tired"?

The fact that the Palestinians don't yet have autonomy from Israel?

Well, were you expecting it to happen overnight?


Dear friends, you and your leaders have wasted three generations trying to fight for Palestine, but the truth is the Palestine you could have had in 1948 is much bigger than the one you could have had in 1967, which in turn is much bigger than what you may have to settle for now or in another 10 years. Struggle means less land and more misery and utter loneliness.

Now, what exactly does Mr. Ibrahim propose the Palestinians should have done and should now do?

Give in and just hope upon hopes that the Middle-Eastern Client State for imperialism will "go easy on them"?


At the moment, brothers, you would be lucky to secure a semblance of a state in that Gaza Strip into which you have all crowded, and a small part of the West Bank of the Jordan. It isn't going to get better.

...As opposed to living under permanent occupation.

Yeah, First Nations tried that. Didn't work out so well.

[Maynard]

The war with Israel is over.

Not by a long shot and I doubt that it ever will, even with a two state "solution". Israel will continue to be aggressive and hostile to Palestine, no matter if it becomes a state or not. To think that Palestinians will lie down and just accept that is just plain wishful thinking. Mr Ibrahim is obviously embarrassed by the Palestine struggle, maybe because it makes him "look bad' in "respectful" circles.


You have lost

Again, wishful thinking. Palestine will only have lost, if they accept Mr Ibrahim's disgraceful advice and accept their position, as a colonial outpost, which contrary to what he thinks, won't happen and will never happen. That solution will never be acceptable to the Palestinian people.


but the wise among you and most of us know that we are moving on

Oh, yes, they should just move on. Don't worry about the fact that your house was just blown to pieces! Get over it. Your wife was just killed? Well, that's your fault, isn't it? For daring to oppose Israel. Don't you know you are just meant to accept it?



Struggle means less land and more misery and utter loneliness.

So, I guess black South Africans should have given up their struggle, because it entailed misery, repression and utter loneliness. Of course, it is the Palestinians fault for there misery, not of course, Israel, who haven't played a part in it.


you would be lucky to secure a semblance of a state in that Gaza Strip into which you have all crowded, and a small part of the West Bank of the Jordan.
Don't you know how lucky you are?? This is your chance, Israel is being generous to you ingrates.


Your government, your social institutions, your schools, and your economy are all in ruins.

Palestine's government is not the P.A but the Israeli government and all of those are in ruins, because of the occupation.

This is one of the worst cases that I've ever seen of blaming the victims. Everything, according, to Mr Ibrahim, is Palestine’s fault, the fact that they are illiterate, ill and have high suicide rates, is a cause of the struggle, not the occupation. If only Palestine ceased to resist, then everything will be okay. I can't believe anyone would believe that claptrap. And I don't think Israel would ever allow a Palestinian economy which is flourishing, which will allow the purchase of more effective weapons, because the Israeli ruling class is smart enough to know, that the historical grievances of the Palestinians won't just disappear

[theraven]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 04:54 AM
It's from the jewish world review. It sounds like the jews might be getting scared.

it was written by an egyptian....





Reading that just made me green in the face.

What exactly makes Palestinian national identity and independence "tired"?

The fact that the Palestinians don't yet have autonomy from Israel?

Well, were you expecting it to happen overnight?

what exactly is the "palestianian national identity" anyway?

[adenoid hynkel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 11:45 AM


what exactly is the "palestianian national identity" anyway?
What is the Israeli or the Jewish national identity?

[theraven]

Originally posted by adenoid hynkel+Jul 17 2006, 12:51 PM--> (adenoid hynkel @ Jul 17 2006, 12:51 PM)
[email protected] 17 2006, 11:45 AM


what exactly is the "palestianian national identity" anyway?
What is the Israeli or the Jewish national identity? [/b]
well theres the religion of judiasm...the history of israel itself, the 12 tribes, Hebrew...I can go on if you like.

now what is the "Palestinain national identity"

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by theraven+Jul 17 2006, 02:04 PM--> (theraven @ Jul 17 2006, 02:04 PM)
[email protected] 17 2006, 11:45 AM

what exactly is the "palestianian national identity" anyway? [/b]
The same as any other national identity. You may as well ask what is the American national identity or, as adenoid hynkel did, ask what the isareali national identity is.

[theraven]

Not by a long shot and I doubt that it ever will, even with a two state "solution". Israel will continue to be aggressive and hostile to Palestine, no matter if it becomes a state or not. To think that Palestinians will lie down and just accept that is just plain wishful thinking. Mr Ibrahim is obviously embarrassed by the Palestine struggle, maybe because it makes him "look bad' in "respectful" circles.

I doubt he is embarrased, he probably sympathiezes with them, but he is like a friend in a poker game "cut your losses and run"





Palestine's government is not the P.A but the Israeli government and all of those are in ruins, because of the occupation.


the israeli govern'ment is not active outside of the settlenet sin the running of places . it is not in ruin. the PA infastrucute (though often built by israel) is the stuff thats in ruin,


This is one of the worst cases that I've ever seen of blaming the victims. Everything, according, to Mr Ibrahim, is Palestine’s fault, the fact that they are illiterate, ill and have high suicide rates, is a cause of the struggle, not the occupation. If only Palestine ceased to resist, then everything will be okay. I can't believe anyone would believe that claptrap. And I don't think Israel would ever allow a Palestinian economy which is flourishing, which will allow the purchase of more effective weapons, because the Israeli ruling class is smart enough to know, that the historical grievances of the Palestinians won't just disappear

I think his point was as long as the arabs in that area are focused on destroying israel they won't get anywhere.

[theraven]

Again, wishful thinking. Palestine will only have lost, if they accept Mr Ibrahim's disgraceful advice and accept their position, as a colonial outpost, which contrary to what he thinks, won't happen and will never happen. That solution will never be acceptable to the Palestinian people.


well by "colonial outpost" i beileve you mean the independe tstate of israel (which is not a colonial outpost) in which case there already is one, and its nto giong anywhere. do you support the complete destruction of israel?



Oh, yes, they should just move on. Don't worry about the fact that your house was just blown to pieces! Get over it. Your wife was just killed? Well, that's your fault, isn't it? For daring to oppose Israel. Don't you know you are just meant to accept it?

well they can cut their losses...or not..



So, I guess black South Africans should have given up their struggle, because it entailed misery, repression and utter loneliness. Of course, it is the Palestinians fault for there misery, not of course, Israel, who haven't played a part in it.

well the terrorist approach didn't work for them....


I don't think any American reporter writing for Jewish World Review, Egyptian-born or not, is in any position to be trusted to honestly and accurately determine the collective best interest of the entire Middle East.

Nor do I think Mr. Ibrahim has fully thought out the implications of his little position.

I don't think anyone can determe the collective best interast of the entire middle east. they seem to have a lot of idfferent interasts.




Now, what exactly does Mr. Ibrahim propose the Palestinians should have done and should now do?

Give in and just hope upon hopes that the Middle-Eastern Client State for imperialism will "go easy on them"?

where does saudi arabia come into this?

[EwokUtopia]

Why must you defend an agressive militaristic state like it is the only thing that prevents Jews from being massacred? Why do you think that there is violence against Israeli's? Because everyone hates the Jews and they want all Jews to leave the mid-east forever? NO! this is the most paranoid way of thinking in the world today! Israel isnt hated because it is a Jewish state, it is hated because it is an expansionistic, violent, racist, and exploitational crypto-fascist nation. Your benevolent Israeli state has just murdered-- burned alive-- 7 Canadians, and as a Canadian myself, I am particularly offput by this, but even if the 7 that were killed (they were all a part of the same Montreal family, living in what was until a week ago a generally peaceful country) were not canadian (like the hundreds of other civilans murdered in the last 100 hours) I would still be just as upset by this. Why? National identity goes right out the window when innocent people, students, women, children are being killed. Hizbollah was defending these people even though they did not fight for them. If you think that you can oppress the entire region without being struck back, you are a fool, and if you strike at them, and call it pre-emptive defense, and when struck back call it terrorist, you are a liar in the worst respect, a hypocrate, and your way of life, if not mended, is not long for this world. It is up to the Israeli's to decide what happens next. Back off, perhaps peace is possible, perhaps not, but at any rate, far far less people will be killed, and far less scars will hinder future peace, or keep going until you go too far and ensure your own destruction. America is falling. When this hegemonic leviathan finally falls, how do you expect its puppets to survive when they have made an angry hornets nest out of a once peaceful region?

Of course the death of Israel does not mean that all Jews will be killed or forced to leave, no thinking Arab wants this, and I dare you to proove me wrong. But if Israel burns out in the wars that it has started, then many of its citizens will be killed and many more will be forced to leave. This isnt anti-semitism, this is just war, this is just what you have been doing to the surrounding countries for half a century now. Dont be so arrogant to think you can keep doing it for another half century.

[theraven]

Why must you defend an agressive militaristic state like it is the only thing that prevents Jews from being massacred?

because it would be if we ever have another nazi germany...or russian programs...i can go on if you like. Jews don' thaeva history of being well liked.


Why do you think that there is violence against Israeli's? Because everyone hates the Jews and they want all Jews to leave the mid-east forever?

It is in large part because they hate jews, but they don't want them to leave, jews are generally promineimetn buisness men, and hey under most o fthe past 1000 years of the governments of the ME we provided a lot of taxes im sure.


NO! this is the most paranoid way of thinking in the world today!

just beacuase i am paranoid doesn't mean i am wrong.

I
srael isnt hated because it is a Jewish state, it is hated because it is an expansionistic, violent, racist, and exploitational crypto-fascist nation.

an expansionsitic country that doesnt' conquer its weak neighbors? thats a new one

violent-yes and so would any coutnry be in israels situation

racist-tell that to the arab, black, white, and so on citiznes o fisrael

explotaitonal-well its capitlisti, and to you lot any capitlst country is explotive so..sure

crpto-facist-consideirng they have a parliment democracy...i don't think so


Your benevolent Israeli state has just murdered-- burned alive-- 7 Canadians, and as a Canadian myself, I am particularly offput by this, but even if the 7 that were killed (they were all a part of the same Montreal family, living in what was until a week ago a generally peaceful country) were not canadian (like the hundreds of other civilans murdered in the last 100 hours) I would still be just as upset by this.

that sucks, deaths are always painful, however what do you want israel to do "oh please hezbollah stop kidnapping our soliders! stop shooting rockets into our cities! we beg you!"


Why? National identity goes right out the window when innocent people, students, women, children are being killed.

really


Hizbollah was defending these people even though they did not fight for them.

how exactly is hezbollah doing this? by shooting rockets at ranedom into israeli cities?


If you think that you can oppress the entire region without being struck back, you are a fool, and if you strike at them, and call it pre-emptive defense, and when struck back call it terrorist, you are a liar in the worst respect, a hypocrate, and your way of life, if not mended, is not long for this world.

israel can hardly be deemd to oppress a whole region. if its nieghbros actually woiudl nromalize relations it would be ahuge boon to the whole region. the only peopel who are oppressed are those who are bombarding israels cities with rockets. I don't see israel going into jordan or egypt...

anyway was that last sentance a threat to me?


It is up to the Israeli's to decide what happens next. Back off, perhaps peace is possible, perhaps not, but at any rate, far far less people will be killed, and far less scars will hinder future peace, or keep going until you go too far and ensure your own destruction. America is falling. When this hegemonic leviathan finally falls, how do you expect its puppets to survive when they have made an angry hornets nest out of a once peaceful region?

1) peace is not possible for israel from a weak positoin

2) when has the middle east ever been a peaceful region?


Of course the death of Israel does not mean that all Jews will be killed or forced to leave, no thinking Arab wants this, and I dare you to proove me wrong. But if Israel burns out in the wars that it has started, then many of its citizens will be killed and many more will be forced to leave. This isnt anti-semitism, this is just war, this is just what you have been doing to the surrounding countries for half a century now. Dont be so arrogant to think you can keep doing it for another half century.

hahahaahha i love how in yoru other paragpsh you mourn people killed by accidnet in a bombign campiagn, but when speaking israels "ineveitble destruction" you view the massaceres of its citisesn as a basic reality of life.

anyway israels destrucion is far from imminent,

[EwokUtopia]

So let the generations to come pay for your mistakes? thats basically the feel you give.
This is no longer a world of conquering nations and expanding borders, or at least it isnt like that in the extremes as it was 100 years ago, it is more about being strong by keeping those around you weak, and the arabs are no where near as weak as israel would like. Thats basically the end goal of all these wars, to be the only strong country in the region and have the surrounding states be as poor as sub-saharan africa thereby giving Israel the power to do whatever it pleases in the region. This is post-colonial Imperialism. I am not saying the destruction of Israel is a good thing by any means, but by continueing these wars, you are only exacerbating the problem. There will be more "terrorist" attacks when Israel continues its Terrorist wars. Violence begats Violence. If you really wanted to end the violence, which Israeli's allways claim they do while making no effort to stop it aside from smashing its enemies, then you would stop oppressing the people of Palestine and Golan Hieghts and allow them to live in their own freedom. The Iseaeli State hardly defends its people from Nazi Germany and Czarist Russia, those states are long dead, all it has done is become new oppressors. The Jews are nothing special, they are just people, like the Slavs or Roma or Sinti. All were brutally murdered in the holocaust, all have had countless centuries of racism against them. Why then do you think that everyone hates the jews? I hate the Israeli state, but I love Jews and Israeli's as my brethren in humanity. I would like to talk to the Black Israeli's, and ask them how it feels to be a second class citizen in their country despite the fact that they are Jewish. Ashkenazi Israeli's make the richest sector in Israel whereas Arab "Israelis" are at the bottom, along with Mizrahi Jews, why do you think organizations like HaPanterim HaShkhorim exist? Because all Israeli's are equal despite race? It is a very racist society, and to deny that is blatant ignorance. The mid-east was a peaceful region during the Ummayad, Abbasid, and Ottoman Caliphates, and Jews and Arabs and Turks and Armenians all lived in Palestine in peace, far more peaceful than when one race claims it as their land given specifically to them by God. Tell me this, could I become an Israeli citizen? I have no tracable Jewish ancestry, so would the racial policies of Israel bar me from going there like they stopped Madonna? Israel is a racist state, and that can not be denied.


If you dont realize that the so called "terrorist" attacks are retaliations, then you are living in a dream world, or rather considering the amount of paranoia you seem to have, its more of a nightmere world. Let go of your fears and hatred, youll be happier that way. Who knows, maybe youll even make an Arab friend or two.

[Janus]

Why did you even bother posting this crap?

The war has not ended and no one will be "moving on" anytime soon.

[Janus]

jews are generally promineimetn buisness men, and hey under most o fthe past 1000 years of the governments of the ME we provided a lot of taxes im sure.

Stop with the stereotypes; that is just not true.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

"Imperialism is good... Imperialism is good... Imperialism is good... National liberation is stupid... National liberation is stupid... National liberation is stupid... Give up... Give up... Give up..."

:rolleyes:

[theraven]

can you please answer in a cohernet pattern (like i do)


So let the generations to come pay for your mistakes? thats basically the feel you give.

where do you get that?


This is no longer a world of conquering nations and expanding borders, or at least it isnt like that in the extremes as it was 100 years ago,

news falsh-the world is alwys like that. right ow however the major powers keeps people pretty much as they are. its not like countires have given up fighting


it is more about being strong by keeping those around you weak, and the arabs are no where near as weak as israel would like.

wow israel wats its enemies to be weak? what an immoral country!


Thats basically the end goal of all these wars, to be the only strong country in the region and have the surrounding states be as poor as sub-saharan africa thereby giving Israel the power to do whatever it pleases in the region. This is post-colonial Imperialism.

no this is called history. one nation figths other sto be the big power. thats pretty much internatinal politics in a nutshell


I am not saying the destruction of Israel is a good thing by any means, but by continueing these wars, you are only exacerbating the problem.

no your figthing bac


There will be more "terrorist" attacks when Israel continues its Terrorist wars. Violence begats Violence. If you really wanted to end the violence, which Israeli's allways claim they do while making no effort to stop it aside from smashing its enemies, then you would stop oppressing the people of Palestine and Golan Hieghts and allow them to live in their own freedom.

1) israel is figthing agaisnt poeple hwo wish to destory it. laying down arms is not going to stop anything

2) you mean allow them to returin to the dicttorships (in the case of golan heights) or to thier (i don't know-what governemtn did the arabs in palestin have before israel?)



The Iseaeli State hardly defends its people from Nazi Germany and Czarist Russia, those states are long dead,


it defesne its people agsint those future states. israel is a haven for jews the world over.


all it has done is become new oppressors. The Jews are nothing special, they are just people, like the Slavs or Roma or Sinti. All were brutally murdered in the holocaust, all have had countless centuries of racism against them. Why then do you think that everyone hates the jews?

1) i am all for the slavs getting thier own country, in fact i blieve ethey have one,

2) because they do? just beucase other peole are hated doesnt mean the jews aren't.


I hate the Israeli state, but I love Jews and Israeli's as my brethren in humanity.

how nice! ::group hug!!::


I would like to talk to the Black Israeli's, and ask them how it feels to be a second class citizen in their country despite the fact that they are Jewish.


they'd probably say something like "its better then ethiopia!"


Ashkenazi Israeli's make the richest sector in Israel whereas Arab "Israelis" are at the bottom, along with Mizrahi Jews, why do you think organizations like HaPanterim HaShkhorim exist

there are certianly differneces, undoubtedly in part a result of culutrail differencse between the groups, however the mihriazi while a bit poorere then the ashkenazi are closing the gap raidly as they intergrate. askenaiz are generally better of fbecuase they came better off or have been there longer. and last i heard hapneterim hashkorim hasn't done much since the 70s.


Because all Israeli's are equal despite race? It is a very racist society, and to deny that is blatant ignorance.

again how is it racist? there may be racial differnce,s but that doesnt make it acist


The mid-east was a peaceful region during the Ummayad, Abbasid, and Ottoman Caliphates, and Jews and Arabs and Turks and Armenians all lived in Palestine in peace
1) there were reguarly wars thought the thousand years that span the various caliphs. those caliphsgeneraly tried to exapnd a lot, they generaly had probelsm itnenerally, which they suprsed brutally
2) during those times non-mulism had highly discrimatnaly laws against them and it was quite clear whos land it was


far more peaceful than when one race claims it as their land given specifically to them by God. Tell me this, could I become an Israeli citizen? I have no tracable Jewish ancestry, so would the racial policies of Israel bar me from going there like they stopped Madonna? Israel is a racist state, and that can not be denied.


I don't knwo what israels citizneshop policy is, i believe madona was denied enry because she is aprt of some weired sect of kaballah.



If you dont realize that the so called "terrorist" attacks are retaliations, then you are living in a dream world, or rather considering the amount of paranoia you seem to have, its more of a nightmere world. Let go of your fears and hatred, youll be happier that way. Who knows, maybe youll even make an Arab friend or two.

1) sure there "retaitalion" for some preceived grieven,ce but they aren' reallya valid reatiaotn, nor should israel enduer them becuse of th at

2) i have arab freinds, i've dated arab girls (i actually have lebanse freinds im worried about). its nothing personal. hell i was dirinking the other night with a muslim north african from my stat class.



Stop with the stereotypes; that is just not true.

its a stereotype that derives from fact, that jews were normally some sort of trader. also most imrptoantly jews were taxed more heviyl (as wee other non-muslims)

[theraven]

and I guess i need to repeat

can someoen tell me about the "palestinain national identity"??

[EwokUtopia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 07:37 PM
can you please answer in a cohernet pattern (like i do)


Like this? Im not too big on online forums, so you will forgive me if my technical skills are somewhat limited in this matter, I find direct conversations face to face to be much more effective, and I just do this basically on my spare time



So let the generations to come pay for your mistakes? thats basically the feel you give.

where do you get that?


Your short-sightedness. You cant go on oppressing everybody in the region pissing millions of people off more and more with every generation and expect to get away with it scot free. Name me one instance in history where a small amount of people was able to come over to a heavily populated land with a history of cultural sophistication and ingenuity and was able to keep them under their thumb for more than a century. Do you think that somehow you will be magically different? The odds are definately stacked against you, and though you may seem like defeat is impossible for you right now, thats how the Germans felt in 1940. This situation is far less dramatic, so it may take more time, but think of it this way, that gives Israeli's more time to mend the wounds they have inflicted and avoid a nakbah of their own. You said that Israels defeat was far from imminent...define imminent and tell me why you think that the situation wont change (metaphorically) overnight, as history shows such situations have a habit of doing



news falsh-the world is alwys like that. right ow however the major powers keeps people pretty much as they are. its not like countires have given up fighting

Im not denying that the world is less violent, in fact i would argue it is far more so, just that the nature of conquest has changed, thereby making it realistically impossible for Israel to up and go into Lebannon and make it a new Province of Israel. This just wouldnt work, and so the more realistic way to do that is to take down the government and establish a puppet that bends to your will, much like the US did with Iraq. That is why Israel hasnt up and invaded all of its neighbours, it could never get away with that. Rather, it keeps a low level war going with the ones who cause problems for their expansionist views that are hindered by international opinion. They will make their invasions seem less invasive with puppets and buffers, but this will be shown to be sheer aggressive expansionism in reterospect by history. This is wrong of course, as we have seen 200 innocent Lebanese civilians killed in less than a week, which completely outnumbers anything Israel has suffered in many months. Its really one way suffering, save for the few unlucky Israeli's, but they are few and far between, you have more to worry about cholesterol than you do about terrorism.


wow israel wats its enemies to be weak? what an immoral country!

Yes what an immoral country! It has created its enemies by coming into a populated land, kicking all of its inhabitants out save 10% which it turned into second class citizens for cheap labour, stole more land than the international body allowed them for, annexed even more land and put up settlements there and bulldozed more homes, bombed cities in neighbouring countries killing hundreds of innocents, been a catalyst for more western imperialism in the region (raping it since 1919!) and calls its opponents terrorists when they fight back. It wants to have absolute power in a region which isnt theirs. This is blatant oppression and destruction of millions of peoples rights. You could give me more of your might makes right bullshit, but remember that your people were at the short end of the oppressive racist stick not too long ago. Congratulations, you have just become the jackasses who raped, robbed, and killed you for the past 2000 years, how does that feel?


no this is called history. one nation figths other sto be the big power. thats pretty much internatinal politics in a nutshell

Ok, ignoring the right/wrong issue, do you seriously believe that in the grand scale of history 7 million Jews can contend with 200 million pissed off Arabs and Persians? Do you think that you can hide behind your walls and strike with your helicopters forever? Do you not remember the old saying "those who live by the sword die by the sword"? Israel is making alot of mistakes now that it will have to pay for in the decades to come. The only way to avoid destruction and the deaths of many is to learn to live with the neighbours that shars such a small region.

no your figthing bac

What the hell would you do if a foriegn people came to your country in great numbers, usurped your land, killed your people, bulldozed your house, forced you to live in a small, arid patch of what you once had, and limited your movement and quashed your economic abilities? Just sit there and take it?




1) israel is figthing agaisnt poeple hwo wish to destory it. laying down arms is not going to stop anything

2) you mean allow them to returin to the dicttorships (in the case of golan heights) or to thier (i don't know-what governemtn did the arabs in palestin have before israel?)

1-The people are not fighting because they want to destroy Israel, they are fighting because they dont want to be quashed into submission by Israel. If you look at most 'terrorist' attacks, they happen a few days after Israel does something stupid, like fires bullets at innocent Palestinian civilians or bulldozes a village. They dont come out of nowhere, and after this invasion of Gaza and Lebannon, count on there being alot more...You brought it upon yourselves, now you have to deal with the consequenses (yes, imperialism has its consequences, believe it or not!)

2-Return Golan Hieghts to the Syrian people, if they have a dictator or not. Most of the residents would much rather have a Syrian dictator than an Israeli Democracy that invaded them, took their land, built racist settlements, and prevents them from moving without constantly being watched. At least life under Bashar al-Assad is nowhere near as totalitarian as Israeli "democracy" where the people of that region have no say at all. Before Israel, Palestine was still an occupied country. The only reason Israel exists is because it was promised to them by the British who had no right to be there in the first place. You are a colonial outpost, like it or not. You were created from the bossom of British colonialism. Before that, there was the Ottoman Empire, which although good in the beginning became racist towards non-turks, but still, they were nowhere near as oppressive as the British or Israeli's were. So I suppose you are correct in saying there has never been a Palestinian nation, but that is meaningless because the concept of the nation state was only introduced to the mid-east 50 years ago as a form of post-colonial control through puppet states, with Israel being the agent state of western Imperial ambitions. Nations are not even a good thing, with the rise of nations, we have seen war become more horrifying than ever in history. Nationalism led to such wonders as national superiority, which manifested itself most blatantly in the Nazi state, and we all know how that ended. Israel is dangerously nationalist as well, and it risks the same national calamities that all jingoistic states eventually suffer. To say that Palestinians never existed because there was never a nation of Palestine is as redundant as to say that Beethoven was not German because he lived before 1871 and the creation of a German nation.



it defesne its people agsint those future states. israel is a haven for jews the world over.

And what, Canada isnt? You are putting too much emphasis on anti-semitism, as if it differs from ordinary racism, the Jews are (aside from reactions to all the shit Israel has stirred paradoxically keeping anti-semitism alive) just as likely for another racist attack as any other people in the future, and nations will not defend them. actually, in this nuclear world of ours where Israel and Iran now are rubbing shoulders and seeing whose balls are bigger, the extermination of millions of Jews is far more likely (along with tens of millions of Persians)...There is such a thing as putting all your eggs in one basket, which doesnt work particularly well if you swing the basket around in such a way that gets the rest of the world to hate the basket. Free all eggs from all baskets, I say. But there are thousands upon thousands of stateless ethnicities out there, why do the Jews need their own state so urgently. As I said before, the Roma and Sinti had a harder time in the holocaust than the jews (9 out of ten of them were killed, as opposed to 2 out of 3 jews) and they still lack a nation, it hasnt happened again to them. The Israeli state does alot more harm to the Jewish people than good. or look at it this way, how prevailant was anti-semitism among arabs before zionism? Who lifted the Roman ban on Jews entering Jerusalem?


1) i am all for the slavs getting thier own country, in fact i blieve ethey have one,

2) because they do? just beucase other peole are hated doesnt mean the jews aren't.

1- They have several, and if you know your history well, it was Slavic nationalism that started the first world war. Isnt Nationalism such a wonderful thing?

2-All people are hated by one another, but the view that the Jews are hated by everyone (which is rather sadly prevailant among Israeli's) is neurotic and xenophobic.


how nice! ::group hug!!::

Give a zionist a hug and your halfway home. Wouldnt you rather be hugged by an arabic friend than a concrete wall?


again how is it racist? there may be racial differnce,s but that doesnt make it acist
Different coloured liscence plates for different races makes profiling much easier, doesnt it?

I grow weary of typing in endless circles. Its a beautiful summer day, and I think I will go walk around completely free of fear, and you should do the same.

Allways remember, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, and hatred leads to the dark side. A fearless israel is an israel that has no reason to be afraid because a fearless israel is an israel with no need for attacks which perpetuate violence. [/quote]

you must teach me someday how to do this quot thing.

[Noah]

well theres the religion of judiasm...the history of israel itself, the 12 tribes, Hebrew...I can go on if you like.

Most Arabs come from 'Tribes'. I am from Iraq I come from 1 of 10 Mandaean Arab (although 'Muslim Arab' tribes are over 100) tribes called Menduwee. Palestinian society is made up of tribes, I know a palestinian man who is from a tribe, don't know what it is called though.

[theraven]

to do the quote thing: go to "new reply" copy and post the part you want to respoond to. on the top there are a bunch of buttons like "quote" "http://" "img" and so on. hightly the text you want to quote and hit the quote button. then reply.



Your short-sightedness. You cant go on oppressing everybody in the region pissing millions of people off more and more with every generation and expect to get away with it scot free. Name me one instance in history where a small amount of people was able to come over to a heavily populated land with a history of cultural sophistication and ingenuity and was able to keep them under their thumb for more than a century. Do you think that somehow you will be magically different? The odds are definately stacked against you, and though you may seem like defeat is impossible for you right now, thats how the Germans felt in 1940. This situation is far less dramatic, so it may take more time, but think of it this way, that gives Israeli's more time to mend the wounds they have inflicted and avoid a nakbah of their own. You said that Israels defeat was far from imminent...define imminent and tell me why you think that the situation wont change (metaphorically) overnight, as history shows such situations have a habit of doing


except the problem with your solution is israel cease to exist.



Im not denying that the world is less violent, in fact i would argue it is far more so, just that the nature of conquest has changed, thereby making it realistically impossible for Israel to up and go into Lebannon and make it a new Province of Israel.

so? whos trying to do that?


This just wouldnt work, and so the more realistic way to do that is to take down the government and establish a puppet that bends to your will, much like the US did with Iraq. That is why Israel hasnt up and invaded all of its neighbours, it could never get away with that. Rather, it keeps a low level war going with the ones who cause problems for their expansionist views that are hindered by international opinion.

1) what expansiont views?

2) it is not at war with any of its nieghbors. even with lebanon it is hezbollah acting indpendnetly of lebanon, the presdient of lebanon was talking of sending in his army


They will make their invasions seem less invasive with puppets and buffers, but this will be shown to be sheer aggressive expansionism in reterospect by history. This is wrong of course, as we have seen 200 innocent Lebanese civilians killed in less than a week, which completely outnumbers anything Israel has suffered in many months. Its really one way suffering, save for the few unlucky Israeli's, but they are few and far between, you have more to worry about cholesterol than you do about terrorism.


"those israeli lives don't matter much! theres so few of them..but those arab lives they sure matter a lot!" you do relize that israel being the better fighter shoul dnot count against it right?



Yes what an immoral country! It has created its enemies by coming into a populated land, kicking all of its inhabitants out save 10% which it turned into second class citizens for cheap labour, stole more land than the international body allowed them for, annexed even more land and put up settlements there and bulldozed more homes, bombed cities in neighbouring countries killing hundreds of innocents, been a catalyst for more western imperialism in the region (raping it since 1919!) and calls its opponents terrorists when they fight back. It wants to have absolute power in a region which isnt theirs. This is blatant oppression and destruction of millions of peoples rights. You could give me more of your might makes right bullshit, but remember that your people were at the short end of the oppressive racist stick not too long ago. Congratulations, you have just become the jackasses who raped, robbed, and killed you for the past 2000 years, how does that feel?

"it" did nto come into a populatioed area. "it" was not ant entity. jews moved there because it was their holy land and to escape oppresion. the british ruled it in the 40s and decided it wasn't worth keeping. they gave it to th UN whcih divded it up. no one was kciek dout by anyone, however many people did leave on both sides (roughly the same number of arabs left israel as arab jews left the other surroudnidng countires to come ot israel). its neighbros attacked it in 3 succesive wars, each time israel gaining more land from these agressors. Israel expande donly to a point of a secure border, never beyond, and did not force the native populace off as it could have. the area has known foriegn empires for over 2000 years btw. there has been no native rule to the region of palestin since herod (a jew). it has gone roman, byzantine, muslim (several) crusaders, turks (also muslim), the britsih, and now the jews.



Ok, ignoring the right/wrong issue, do you seriously believe that in the grand scale of history 7 million Jews can contend with 200 million pissed off Arabs and Persians? Do you think that you can hide behind your walls and strike with your helicopters forever? Do you not remember the old saying "those who live by the sword die by the sword"? Israel is making alot of mistakes now that it will have to pay for in the decades to come. The only way to avoid destruction and the deaths of many is to learn to live with the neighbours that shars such a small region.

1) no i hope those muslism can come ot understand israle is here to stay and it is for the better of you. after all israel has the technology and understanding that those counires desperatly need

2) those who live by the sword do die by it, but those who dont' have any swords can die by it just the same.



What the hell would you do if a foriegn people came to your country in great numbers, usurped your land, killed your people, bulldozed your house, forced you to live in a small, arid patch of what you once had, and limited your movement and quashed your economic abilities? Just sit there and take it?

no id fight back, but at a certain point you gota move on. if i had neihghboring countires with te same lanugage, religion and culutre as mine i'd prob jsut move there.



1-The people are not fighting because they want to destroy Israel, they are fighting because they dont want to be quashed into submission by Israel. If you look at most 'terrorist' attacks, they happen a few days after Israel does something stupid, like fires bullets at innocent Palestinian civilians or bulldozes a village. They dont come out of nowhere, and after this invasion of Gaza and Lebannon, count on there being alot more...You brought it upon yourselves, now you have to deal with the consequenses (yes, imperialism has its consequences, believe it or not!)

1) israel is not imepralistic

2) no, they do it because they want to weaken israel and try to get it o leave, so they can use it as a base of attack (like they used gaza, so they can further destroy israel.



2-Return Golan Hieghts to the Syrian people, if they have a dictator or not. Most of the residents would much rather have a Syrian dictator than an Israeli Democracy that invaded them, took their land, built racist settlements, and prevents them from moving without constantly being watched. At least life under Bashar al-Assad is nowhere near as totalitarian as Israeli "democracy" where the people of that region have no say at all. Before Israel, Palestine was still an occupied country. The only reason Israel exists is because it was promised to them by the British who had no right to be there in the first place. You are a colonial outpost, like it or not. You were created from the bossom of British colonialism. Before that, there was the Ottoman Empire, which although good in the beginning became racist towards non-turks, but still, they were nowhere near as oppressive as the British or Israeli's were.


1) I highly doubt israel is going to return the golan hieghbs if onlyu out of military nesscity

2) the british empire was one of the least oppresive in history. by the mere fact of britaisn popualtion it could not be oppressive. the british were generally decent rulers of the region of palestin.


So I suppose you are correct in saying there has never been a Palestinian nation, but that is meaningless because the concept of the nation state was only introduced to the mid-east 50 years ago as a form of post-colonial control through puppet states, with Israel being the agent state of western Imperial ambitions. Nations are not even a good thing, with the rise of nations, we have seen war become more horrifying than ever in history. Nationalism led to such wonders as national superiority, which manifested itself most blatantly in the Nazi state, and we all know how that ended. Israel is dangerously nationalist as well, and it risks the same national calamities that all jingoistic states eventually suffer. To say that Palestinians never existed because there was never a nation of Palestine is as redundant as to say that Beethoven was not German because he lived before 1871 and the creation of a German nation.


no there are other chatretcerstics of a nation. common culture,common language, common acnestory and so on.


And what, Canada isnt? You are putting too much emphasis on anti-semitism, as if it differs from ordinary racism


canada at the time is nice. so was germany once.


the Jews are (aside from reactions to all the shit Israel has stirred paradoxically keeping anti-semitism alive)

pf course is all the jews fault!


just as likely for another racist attack as any other people in the future, and nations will not defend them. actually, in this nuclear world of ours where Israel and Iran now are rubbing shoulders and seeing whose balls are bigger, the extermination of millions of Jews is far more likely (along with tens of millions of Persians)...There is such a thing as putting all your eggs in one basket, which doesnt work particularly well if you swing the basket around in such a way that gets the rest of the world to hate the basket. Free all eggs from all baskets, I say. But there are thousands upon thousands of stateless ethnicities out there, why do the Jews need their own state so urgently.


1) let us decide where to put our eggs

2) thats a moot point. israel exists.


As I said before, the Roma and Sinti had a harder time in the holocaust than the jews (9 out of ten of them were killed, as opposed to 2 out of 3 jews) and they still lack a nation, it hasnt happened again to them.

ohhh 50 years later its all clear!


the Israeli state does alot more harm to the Jewish people than good. or look at it this way, how prevailant was anti-semitism among arabs before zionism? Who lifted the Roman ban on Jews entering Jerusalem?

ohh so we shoudl be grateful for something done 1500 years ago? muslims generaly treated their jewish popluations as second class citiznes..




1- They have several, and if you know your history well, it was Slavic nationalism that started the first world war. Isnt Nationalism such a wonderful thing?


it can be.


2-All people are hated by one another, but the view that the Jews are hated by everyone (which is rather sadly prevailant among Israeli's) is neurotic and xenophobic.

and based on precedent..


Give a zionist a hug and your halfway home. Wouldnt you rather be hugged by an arabic friend than a concrete wall?


sure..unless that arabic friend had a bomb on his back...


Different coloured liscence plates for different races makes profiling much easier, doesnt it?

does israel have differtn colors license plates?


I grow weary of typing in endless circles. Its a beautiful summer day, and I think I will go walk around completely free of fear, and you should do the same.


considieng i live in the US i will most ceritanly


Allways remember, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, and hatred leads to the dark side. A fearless israel is an israel that has no reason to be afraid because a fearless israel is an israel with no need for attacks which perpetuate violence.

star wars is an amazing movie. its philopshy sucks.

[theraven]

Most Arabs come from 'Tribes'. I am from Iraq I come from 1 of 10 Mandaean Arab (although 'Muslim Arab' tribes are over 100) tribes called Menduwee. Palestinian society is made up of tribes, I know a palestinian man who is from a tribe, don't know what it is called though.

now are all palestiansin from th same tribe (im wagering no)

[EwokUtopia]

No, Palestinians are Arabs by language and partial ancestry, they are by no means purely decended from Arabians. They have blood from Arabs, Phoenecians, Romans, Jews, Philistines, Cypriots, Greeks, Egyptians, Turks, and even some Crusaders and Mongols. They are basically the mixture of all the peoples who lived there in the last 3000 years, whereas Israeli's only bear part of an ancestry that stems from Palestine. Im not saying this is bad, in my beliefs, Israeli's and Palestinians should (and inevitably will, unless there is some sort of advanced segregation or genocide) intermarry and continue this tradition.


the Jews are (aside from reactions to all the shit Israel has stirred paradoxically keeping anti-semitism alive)



pf course is all the jews fault!

You terribly misquoted me and cut off the majority of the sentence to make it seem like I said the Jews are responsible for anti-semitism, which I did not. This is an insult and you know it. I said that the state of Israel (states and people are very different things) was responsible, not the Jews.

[EwokUtopia]

And question....If the state of Israel is based on the foundations that (some) Jews havnt moved on from having their land stolen after 2000 years, why do you expect the Palestinians to give up and move on after 50? Seems like a terrible double standard to me.

[theraven]

No, Palestinians are Arabs by language and partial ancestry, they are by no means purely decended from Arabians. They have blood from Arabs, Phoenecians, Romans, Jews, Philistines, Cypriots, Greeks, Egyptians, Turks, and even some Crusaders and Mongols. They are basically the mixture of all the peoples who lived there in the last 3000 years, whereas Israeli's only bear part of an ancestry that stems from Palestine. Im not saying this is bad, in my beliefs, Israeli's and Palestinians should (and inevitably will, unless there is some sort of advanced segregation or genocide) intermarry and continue this tradition.

you make tis eem liek the "palestianin" have been there for ever. most of what today are considred "palestinains" are arabs who conquered the land and were poor enough they had to settle down and farm (which was considered a lowly profession). they may have some mixed blood, but they are priamrily arabic.

PS i would have no probelm with them intermarrying and suhc, as long as they stay jews :).



You terribly misquoted me and cut off the majority of the sentence to make it seem like I said the Jews are responsible for anti-semitism, which I did not. This is an insult and you know it. I said that the state of Israel (states and people are very different things) was responsible, not the Jews.

because thats what you were really saying. by israeli you meant jew.


And question....If the state of Israel is based on the foundations that (some) Jews havnt moved on from having their land stolen after 2000 years, why do you expect the Palestinians to give up and move on after 50? Seems like a terrible double standard to me.

Israel is based ont he foudnain that israel is holy to jews and jews need a state, thus israel is it.

[Noah]

now are all palestiansin from th same tribe, im wagering no

Neither are all Isrealis, so now you're point about the '12 tribes' is totally irrelevant! Palestinians have majorly the same religion, the same with Isreal. That doesn't mean they are all in the same tribe.

Obviously, you have no understanding of how the tribal systems work in these countries, the tribe is a representation of someone ancestry.

[theraven]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 06:20 PM

now are all palestiansin from th same tribe, im wagering no

Neither are all Isrealis, so now you're point about the '12 tribes' is totally irrelevant! Palestinians have majorly the same religion, the same with Isreal. That doesn't mean they are all in the same tribe.

Obviously, you have no understanding of how the tribal systems work in these countries, the tribe is a representation of someone ancestry.
actually most jews are the same tribe, judah. there were once 12 tribes (though they were all part of the same nation), the few who are nto judah are cohen (the priests).

[EwokUtopia]

you make tis eem liek the "palestianin" have been there for ever. most of what today are considred "palestinains" are arabs who conquered the land and were poor enough they had to settle down and farm (which was considered a lowly profession). they may have some mixed blood, but they are priamrily arabic.

No, I would be ignorant to say that the Palestinians have lived there forever, just as I would be ignorant to say the English have allways lived in England or the Russians in Russia, or the Brazillians in Brazil, and so on. They are all a mizture of all the peoples that have lived there and married with their neighbours. They can logically only have one language, and usually change it (or perhaps develope a new language). Therefore we see modern English coming as a combination of Anglo-Saxon, old Norse, and French primarily, or the Brazillians keeping the language of the Portuguese imperialists, although they are for the most part a mixture of the indigenous peoples who lived there before, the Portuguese, and African slaves, and though they kept the portuguese language, this makes them no more portuguese than the Jamaicans are British. It is the same with the Palestinians, however Arabic is a unique language in that it is remarkably unchanged by time or culture. The arabic that is spoken today is virtually the same as the arabic that was spoken in Muhammads time, and the Arabic spoken in Iraq is very similar to the Arabic spoken in Algeria (although the latter has a definate French influence). This is due to religion more than anything, as the Quran can not be translated, therefore it has become a base for the Arabic language. So just because they speak the same language and have the same religion as their neighbours does not make the Palestinians the same as the Egyptians or the Iraqi's or any other Arabic speaking people. Iraqi's have different ancestries than the Palestinians do, and so do the Egyptians, or do you really think the Ancient Mesopotamians and Eqyptians just up and dissapeared? Its all about intermarrying, that is the cradle of every culture, even Jewish.


i would have no probelm with them intermarrying and suhc, as long as they stay jews

How do you mean? Religiously? Ethnically? Linguistically? Culturally?

Religiously, they will be what they will be, if a Jew and a Muslim marry and have a child, that child will logically be exposed to both faiths and will decide to be a Jew or a Muslim or both or neither for her/himself. Would you (I am assuming you are Jewish, appologies if I am wrong) love your child any less if he decided not to be a Jew? Ethnically and culturally, they would be both Israeli Jewish and Palestinian Arabic, and being as both of those are mixtures of scores of different cultures, a mixed people in that area would have elements of Ashkenazi, Arabic, Sephardic, Armenian, Druze, Cypriot, Greek, and so forth cultures. This would be a good thing. As to whether they will be Jews? Who cares? If you want cultural preservationism, you should have picked an island somewhere, because with the way the world is today, all cultures are begining to mix in such small places. Get used to it. Whether they speak Hebrew or Arabic is more or less irrelevant, as both languages would begin to be stronly influenced by one another until they are mutually intelligible, and eventually the same language. This is the way these things work. And this is a much better solution then Segregationism, which is horribly unsustainable, or anihilation of one group (or both) which is conversely horribly permenant.


because thats what you were really saying. by israeli you meant jew.
No No a thousand times NO. I didnt even say "Israeli", I said Israel. Israel is a nation, a government. Israel is not the same thing as "the Jews" by a long shot. Associating a people with a government and its policies so ferverently is a very very bad thing. Although nations and governments do bad things, one should never never never hold its citizens responsible, even if they go along with it. For a Hyperbolic comparison, consider if you will the Nazi state in Germany which commited countless unimaginable crimes, most Germans at the time supported Hitler until the end of the war, and had there been an election, Hitler would have most certainly beaten any opponent with ease. Does this make all the Germans responsible for the crimes of war and the Holocaust? Does it justify people having racist hatred of all Germans? NO! it most certainly does not. Now Israel is not nearly as bad as Nazi Germany (and hopefully will never achieve such evil, though it is possible, given the Israeli Arsenal and increasing tension between them and their neighbours), but even if they slaughtered every single Arab in the region, it would not justify the killing of innocent Jews. It would certainly call for the immediate dismantling of the Israeli state, but the Israeli state and Jewish people are absolutely different, just as I should not be made to pay for the crimes of my government (which I ferverently oppose I may add). If you can not see any difference between the Jews and Israel, at least t (http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/)h (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/)e (http://www.nkusa.org/)s (http://www.nimn.org/)e (http://oznik.com/words/040712.html) people do.

[theraven]

No, I would be ignorant to say that the Palestinians have lived there forever, just as I would be ignorant to say the English have allways lived in England or the Russians in Russia, or the Brazillians in Brazil, and so on. They are all a mizture of all the peoples that have lived there and married with their neighbours. They can logically only have one language, and usually change it (or perhaps develope a new language). Therefore we see modern English coming as a combination of Anglo-Saxon, old Norse, and French primarily, or the Brazillians keeping the language of the Portuguese imperialists, although they are for the most part a mixture of the indigenous peoples who lived there before, the Portuguese, and African slaves, and though they kept the portuguese language, this makes them no more portuguese than the Jamaicans are British. It is the same with the Palestinians, however Arabic is a unique language in that it is remarkably unchanged by time or culture. The arabic that is spoken today is virtually the same as the arabic that was spoken in Muhammads time, and the Arabic spoken in Iraq is very similar to the Arabic spoken in Algeria (although the latter has a definate French influence). This is due to religion more than anything, as the Quran can not be translated, therefore it has become a base for the Arabic language. So just because they speak the same language and have the same religion as their neighbours does not make the Palestinians the same as the Egyptians or the Iraqi's or any other Arabic speaking people. Iraqi's have different ancestries than the Palestinians do, and so do the Egyptians, or do you really think the Ancient Mesopotamians and Eqyptians just up and dissapeared? Its all about intermarrying, that is the cradle of every culture, even Jewish.

msot of that was about language, i am takling about culutre. and i did not comapre the arabs in palestine to egypt, but to jordan with whom they have a great deal in common. anda gain i challegne you to tell me about the history of the palestinain people.


How do you mean? Religiously? Ethnically? Linguistically? Culturally?

Religiously, they will be what they will be, if a Jew and a Muslim marry and have a child, that child will logically be exposed to both faiths and will decide to be a Jew or a Muslim or both or neither for her/himself. Would you (I am assuming you are Jewish, appologies if I am wrong) love your child any less if he decided not to be a Jew? Ethnically and culturally, they would be both Israeli Jewish and Palestinian Arabic, and being as both of those are mixtures of scores of different cultures, a mixed people in that area would have elements of Ashkenazi, Arabic, Sephardic, Armenian, Druze, Cypriot, Greek, and so forth cultures. This would be a good thing. As to whether they will be Jews? Who cares? If you want cultural preservationism, you should have picked an island somewhere, because with the way the world is today, all cultures are begining to mix in such small places. Get used to it. Whether they speak Hebrew or Arabic is more or less irrelevant, as both languages would begin to be stronly influenced by one another until they are mutually intelligible, and eventually the same language. This is the way these things work. And this is a much better solution then Segregationism, which is horribly unsustainable, or anihilation of one group (or both) which is conversely horribly permenant.

1) religousness is a bit mroe thne the childs choice . its how he/she is raised.

2) not all culutres nessacily assimliate equally.



No No a thousand times NO. I didnt even say "Israeli", I said Israel. Israel is a nation, a government. Israel is not the same thing as "the Jews" by a long shot. Associating a people with a government and its policies so ferverently is a very very bad thing. Although nations and governments do bad things, one should never never never hold its citizens responsible, even if they go along with it. For a Hyperbolic comparison, consider if you will the Nazi state in Germany which commited countless unimaginable crimes, most Germans at the time supported Hitler until the end of the war, and had there been an election, Hitler would have most certainly beaten any opponent with ease. Does this make all the Germans responsible for the crimes of war and the Holocaust? Does it justify people having racist hatred of all Germans? NO! it most certainly does not. Now Israel is not nearly as bad as Nazi Germany (and hopefully will never achieve such evil, though it is possible, given the Israeli Arsenal and increasing tension between them and their neighbours), but even if they slaughtered every single Arab in the region, it would not justify the killing of innocent Jews. It would certainly call for the immediate dismantling of the Israeli state, but the Israeli state and Jewish people are absolutely different, just as I should not be made to pay for the crimes of my government (which I ferverently oppose I may add). If you can not see any difference between the Jews and Israel, at least these people do.

many jews do not see it that way.

[EwokUtopia]

Language is a huge part of culture, and the defining point of nationality. It is actually one of the few things I like about Israel that they made Hebrew the official language. Palestinian culture? well, I am not a Palestinian, and I can only answer that question so far without having to talk to some of my Palestinian friends, but I will try to tackle this as best I can. Palestinian culture is a Levantine Arab culture (though as I have said before, Palestinians are by no means solely Levantine Arabs, but the admixture of all those other cultures I have said numerous times) and as such, it has many commonalities with other Levantine Arabic culutres, but this does not make it the same. Palestinians have their own cuisine, music, and dance, the Palestinian Dabkeh is significantly different than the Lebanese dabkeh, Palestinian Mansaf tastes different than Jordanian mansaf, and Palestinians have their own poets and musicians, you wanted ones that date back before al-nakbah, and I unfortunately forget most of them (I do not speak arabic [yet] therefore cannot read arabic poetry, and most of my knowledge of Palestine at the time focuses around the injustices done to the people, but I am really begining to learn more about the people themself, and could name you tonnes of current poets and mucisians like DAM for instance or Sabreen Group) you will have to give me some time to ask my friends (who I am out of regular contact with due to the summer and the fact that they are at other schools or in Palestine) about the more advanced points of Palestinian culture, because frankly, I am still ignorant of alot of things about Palestine, but I highly doubt you know Palestinians as well as I do, and I most likely do not know Israeli culture as well as you. I have had long discussions about Palestinian poetry from the medeaval era, but unfortunately the names of the poets largely escape me.

Palestinians speak Arabic in their own way, and as you said they have alot in common with Jordanians. What you do not know is that 75% of Jordanians are actually Palestinians who have moved to escape al nakbah. Jordan is a beautiful land in its own measure, but far too arid and resource poor to support many people, and although Palestine is smaller, it is infinately more capable of supporting millions of people through its resources and land. Palestine was quite well populated before al nakbah, but Jordan was very sparse (as most desert regions are) and now it is very heavily populated.



So I can give you a bunch of info on old Palestinian culture, but youll have to give me a while until I talk to my friends and remember to ask them about that (this debate we have going is by no means the first and foremost thing on my mind when i am talking to them, especially the ones in Palestine whose wellbeing I am worried about).

in the meantime, here is some Palestinian music (http://www.barghouti.com/folklore/voice/)for you, alot of it predates the nakbah (although it is done with modern instruments and recordings) so keep an open mind and enjoy. If you have some Jewish folk music to send me in return, I would be much abliged.

[theraven]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 02:09 AM
Language is a huge part of culture, and the defining point of nationality. It is actually one of the few things I like about Israel that they made Hebrew the official language. Palestinian culture? well, I am not a Palestinian, and I can only answer that question so far without having to talk to some of my Palestinian friends, but I will try to tackle this as best I can. Palestinian culture is a Levantine Arab culture (though as I have said before, Palestinians are by no means solely Levantine Arabs, but the admixture of all those other cultures I have said numerous times) and as such, it has many commonalities with other Levantine Arabic culutres, but this does not make it the same. Palestinians have their own cuisine, music, and dance, the Palestinian Dabkeh is significantly different than the Lebanese dabkeh, Palestinian Mansaf tastes different than Jordanian mansaf, and Palestinians have their own poets and musicians, you wanted ones that date back before al-nakbah, and I unfortunately forget most of them (I do not speak arabic [yet] therefore cannot read arabic poetry, and most of my knowledge of Palestine at the time focuses around the injustices done to the people, but I am really begining to learn more about the people themself, and could name you tonnes of current poets and mucisians like DAM for instance or Sabreen Group) you will have to give me some time to ask my friends (who I am out of regular contact with due to the summer and the fact that they are at other schools or in Palestine) about the more advanced points of Palestinian culture, because frankly, I am still ignorant of alot of things about Palestine, but I highly doubt you know Palestinians as well as I do, and I most likely do not know Israeli culture as well as you. I have had long discussions about Palestinian poetry from the medeaval era, but unfortunately the names of the poets largely escape me.

Palestinians speak Arabic in their own way, and as you said they have alot in common with Jordanians. What you do not know is that 75% of Jordanians are actually Palestinians who have moved to escape al nakbah. Jordan is a beautiful land in its own measure, but far too arid and resource poor to support many people, and although Palestine is smaller, it is infinately more capable of supporting millions of people through its resources and land. Palestine was quite well populated before al nakbah, but Jordan was very sparse (as most desert regions are) and now it is very heavily populated.



So I can give you a bunch of info on old Palestinian culture, but youll have to give me a while until I talk to my friends and remember to ask them about that (this debate we have going is by no means the first and foremost thing on my mind when i am talking to them, especially the ones in Palestine whose wellbeing I am worried about).

in the meantime, here is some Palestinian music (http://www.barghouti.com/folklore/voice/)for you, alot of it predates the nakbah (although it is done with modern instruments and recordings) so keep an open mind and enjoy. If you have some Jewish folk music to send me in return, I would be much abliged.
quick question what is the al-nakbah

[EwokUtopia]

Al-Nakbah translates to "the catastrophe" and it reffers to the 1948 war which saw 90% of Palestinians forced from their homes.

[tecumseh]

israel is committing war crimes and as usual bush is allowing this :angry:

[theraven]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 04:26 PM
Al-Nakbah translates to "the catastrophe" and it reffers to the 1948 war which saw 90% of Palestinians forced from their homes.
if by "forced" you mean "left mostly of their own violaitn" sure..

and btw how do you expect me to take as a reasonabel person someone who referes to the birth of israel as a catastorphe?

[Janus]

if by "forced" you mean "left mostly of their own violaitn" sure..
:lol: Yes, they became refugees on their own accord.

[EwokUtopia]

and btw how do you expect me to take as a reasonabel person someone who referes to the birth of israel as a catastorphe?

Because when thousands are killed and millions are displaced, that is what we call a catastrophe. The births of many nations are catastrophe's. America, for instance, was born out of many catastrophe's commited against the Indeginous population, especially in the west. Often times the births of nations come about with the deaths of many innocents, and in the end is the birth of a nation worth such catastrophes that create it?

[hassan monwar al-moudjahid]

israeli tolerance?

jewish fundamentalist (http://thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/JewishFundimentalismIsrael.html)

[hassan monwar al-moudjahid]

how can you defend a nation that will invade another land where there is already a people living there, drive them out of their homes, murder them, and my them refugees (1948)

how can you defend a nation that regularly goes against international law (which is a right naturally preserved to the united states ;) )

how can you defend a nation that has murdered millions of people (in lebanon, as well as gaza and the west bank)

when you carry out these things you are just asking for retaliation, it would b pretty arrogant not to.

why did israel break the cease-fire? an excuse to expand their territory and kill more palestinians?

what about the family picnicing on a beach in gaza? did you think we would just let that slide? how many millions have you killed o great israel? when will you b satisfied? when all the arabs leave? or do you want them to stay living peacefully under your brutality, humiliation, and exploitation?

oh no...a couple israeli soldiers have been kidnapped...what about more than 9,000 palestinian prisoners? are a couple israeli soldiers worth the life of thousands of imprisoned palestinians?

and by the way, you must be in some kind of dream world to say israel is not a racist state......i doubt scum like sharon and peretz would want to live equally with arabs. what about all the "jews only" signs?

check this out (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8182204992793198984&q=noam+chomsky)

this also (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=101137397995970048&q=noam+chomsky)

[Xiao Banfa]

if by "forced" you mean "left mostly of their own violaitn" sure..
You're an ignorant motherfucker (who spelt "volition" wrong).

Have you never heard of the village of Deir Yassin? The inhabitants of this village were butchered in cold blood by israeli paramillitaries.

Moshe Dayan, israeli national hero, said (something along the lines of) "we deliberately used violence against civilians in order to encourage the arabs to flee"

You are a brainwashed fox news-watching speck of shit with no knowledge of historical facts.

[Martin Blank]

I guess "Youssef Ibrahim" is Arabic for "Uncle Tom".

Miles

[theraven]

how can you defend a nation that will invade another land where there is already a people living there, drive them out of their homes, murder them, and my them refugees (1948)\

what on earth are ou talking about? in the war for independence israel was attacked by 5 arab countires afer being granted state hood by the UN. the arab states grabbed up what was suppose dot be palestine and half of jeruslam (israel grabbing the other half). somehow israel won despite not having as good troops or guns. many arabs fled at the call of their leaders saying ot get ot f the way of their fellow arab armies


how can you defend a nation that regularly goes against international law (which is a right naturally preserved to the united states wink.gif )

what interantiaonl law?


how can you defend a nation that has murdered millions of people (in lebanon, as well as gaza and the west bank)

millions? maybe if you count ALL the troops killed in all the wars..but ceritanly not civilians and certianly nto on purpose..


when you carry out these things you are just asking for retaliation, it would b pretty arrogant not to.


excet israel is the one defenditself


why did israel break the cease-fire? an excuse to expand their territory and kill more palestinians?

israel invaded afer its troops were kidnapped...


what about the family picnicing on a beach in gaza? did you think we would just let that slide? how many millions have you killed o great israel? when will you b satisfied? when all the arabs leave? or do you want them to stay living peacefully under your brutality, humiliation, and exploitation?


if they stayed peaceful there'd be no chekcpoints or fences...


oh no...a couple israeli soldiers have been kidnapped...what about more than 9,000 palestinian prisoners? are a couple israeli soldiers worth the life of thousands of imprisoned palestinians?


the palsetianisn brook laws or were threatning israel, those troops were just doing gar dduty/


and by the way, you must be in some kind of dream world to say israel is not a racist state......i doubt scum like sharon and peretz would want to live equally with arabs. what about all the "jews only" signs?

what jew only signs?

[EwokUtopia]

what on earth are ou talking about? in the war for independence israel was attacked by 5 arab countires afer being granted state hood by the UN. the arab states grabbed up what was suppose dot be palestine and half of jeruslam (israel grabbing the other half). somehow israel won despite not having as good troops or guns. many arabs fled at the call of their leaders saying ot get ot f the way of their fellow arab armies

Who gave the UN the right to make statehood? Your political bodies have little to no meaning for anyone in the real world, and I'm sure many people at the UN are begining to rethink that decision now that Israel is bombing them as well. Besides, after the Nakbah, the Israeli's took twice as much land as the international body initially gave them, and after 1967, they took the rest and put it under military occupation. To say that the land wasnt stolen is completely ludacris, almost as if to say that we didnt steal the USA or Canada because the Natives didnt have internationally recognized governments at the time. Sheer Bullshit.


what interantiaonl law?

what laws have they obeyed? For starters, it is illegal to invade and annex another nations land (for the sake of arguement, we'll say Gaza was Egypt and West Bank was Jordanian, because you seem to only be able to recognise nation states and people have no real meaning to you) bulldose villages and establish settlements that only allow members of a distinct ethnicity to live there. Also, bombing UN observers isnt exactly the most kosher thing to do under international law. Nor is killing 400 innocent civillians, nor is bombing an apartment building and killing 50 civillians (37 of whom being children), Nor is flying planes at supersonic speeds low over foriegn nationals to create a deafening sonic boom that has been prooven to cause miscarriages, nor is shooting at 13 year old girls on their way home and not even charging the officer who did it, nor is having their spies use fake Canadian passports without consulting anybody in Canada, nor is pretty much everything else Israel has done in the last 50 years.


millions? maybe if you count ALL the troops killed in all the wars..but ceritanly not civilians and certianly nto on purpose..

yes, this number is a bit high, but it is definately hundreds of thousands of foriegn soldiers, and tens of thousands of civillians over the past quarter century. Also, if any big massacre is being commited, we arent likely to know about it until after the fact, history shows us this fact over and over again.


excet israel is the one defenditself
Of course it is! I mean, all those civillians could grow up and not be 100% in support of Israels hegemony over the region! you know, I and everyone else have responded and refuted this claim that Israel is defending itself on this forum so many times, that I really dont see a point in doing it again. If your head is still in the sand after all this, I really dont think youll ever take it out again.


israel invaded afer its troops were kidnapped...

So, Israel responded to the kidnapping of legitimate targets by bombing civillians to create terror and a lack of morale until the other side was too afraid and weak to do anything but meet Israels demands unconditionally? And what precisely is your definition of the word terrorism anyways? By the way, your a fool if you think your soldiers will actually be freed without diplomacy, Israel is just putting the nooses around their necks with this terror campaign.


if they stayed peaceful there'd be no chekcpoints or fences...
you mean if they became submissive, not stayed peaceful. There will only be peace with justice and equality, and this fence does the exact opposite. You may have just built a wall around the last chance of peace.



the palsetianisn brook laws or were threatning israel, those troops were just doing gar dduty/

Do you just mash your fist against the keyboard? I guess you put forth bullshit regardless. fuck your troops and fuck their duty, they are the reason there is no peace in the region, oppressed people will resist, this is a fact of life, to end violence one must first end oppression, and the 'duties' of the IDF uphold the occupation that is the source of all arab anger and violence.


what jew only signs?
Im not a Jew, tell me, could I ever move onto a settlement in West Bank even if i was a ferverent supporter of Israel? Take madonnas case again, and dont say that Kaballah is a weird cult again if you want to keep maintaining a facade of tolerance and not expose yourself for the bigot we all know you are.

[theraven]

Who gave the UN the right to make statehood? Your political bodies have little to no meaning for anyone in the real world, and I'm sure many people at the UN are begining to rethink that decision now that Israel is bombing them as well. Besides, after the Nakbah, the Israeli's took twice as much land as the international body initially gave them, and after 1967, they took the rest and put it under military occupation. To say that the land wasnt stolen is completely ludacris, almost as if to say that we didnt steal the USA or Canada because the Natives didnt have internationally recognized governments at the time. Sheer Bullshit.

The Un could establish israel because it controlled the land at the time, having been given it by the brits. they also created a palestine btw.

Israel bombed the bunker because it was being used by hezbollah

israle took more land to make defnseive borders, it could have gotten far more.



what laws have they obeyed? For starters, it is illegal to invade and annex another nations land (for the sake of arguement, we'll say Gaza was Egypt and West Bank was Jordanian, because you seem to only be able to recognise nation states and people have no real meaning to you)

the land they took from egypt,jordan and syria was taken in a defenseve war and was taken not to grab resource but to take the defnsene position.


bulldose villages and establish settlements that only allow members of a distinct ethnicity to live there.

I wonder wht the rules of arabs in settelments is


Also, bombing UN observers isnt exactly the most kosher thing to do under international law. Nor is killing 400 innocent civillians, nor is bombing an apartment building and killing 50 civillians (37 of whom being children), Nor is flying planes at supersonic speeds low over foriegn nationals to create a deafening sonic boom that has been prooven to cause miscarriages, nor is shooting at 13 year old girls on their way home and not even charging the officer who did it, nor is having their spies use fake Canadian passports without consulting anybody in Canada, nor is pretty much everything else Israel has done in the last 50 years.


1) bombing of un obserivesr under cotnrol o fhezbollah is a differn story

2) how do we knwo these civilian sare innocnet?

3) why was this aparmetn building bombed

4) coudl they have just wanted to go somewhere fast?

5) iwhy should an officer be charged with something that was probably an accident

6) spies using foriegn passports..thats unuaul :lol:




yes, this number is a bit high, but it is definately hundreds of thousands of foriegn soldiers, and tens of thousands of civillians over the past quarter century. Also, if any big massacre is being commited, we arent likely to know about it until after the fact, history shows us this fact over and over again.

except since even fake massaces make it out im sure a real one would.



So, Israel responded to the kidnapping of legitimate targets by bombing civillians to create terror and a lack of morale until the other side was too afraid and weak to do anything but meet Israels demands unconditionally? And what precisely is your definition of the word terrorism anyways? By the way, your a fool if you think your soldiers will actually be freed without diplomacy, Israel is just putting the nooses around their necks with this terror campaign.

1) since when is kidnapping soliders from behind thie rnaitaonl boundies a legaitamt act?

2) israel responed by trying to rout out the enemy. its bombing campaign is not one cordianted to inficlit terror but to destroy the enemy.

3) do you really think hezbollah could be negoatied with?



you mean if they became submissive, not stayed peaceful. There will only be peace with justice and equality, and this fence does the exact opposite. You may have just built a wall around the last chance of peace.


well they aren't going to get what they want this way for certian. they'd have a lot better chance if they treid ghandis approach.




Do you just mash your fist against the keyboard? I guess you put forth bullshit regardless. fuck your troops and fuck their duty, they are the reason there is no peace in the region, oppressed people will resist, this is a fact of life, to end violence one must first end oppression, and the 'duties' of the IDF uphold the occupation that is the source of all arab anger and violence.


bullshit, bullshit and more bullshit.

1) the reason their is no end to viclien inth e region is that nutsos like hezbollah cant' stand there is a jewsih state where muslims once ruled

2) the reaosn thier is violicne is nutsos like hamas think its unfair that the west is greater than islam where they think islam should be the greatest

3) the sourc eof thier anger is not israels soliders, but israel itself, which they view as an offesn to them and their greatness.




Im not a Jew, tell me, could I ever move onto a settlement in West Bank even if i was a ferverent supporter of Israel? Take madonnas case again, and dont say that Kaballah is a weird cult again if you want to keep maintaining a facade of tolerance and not expose yourself for the bigot we all know you are.

I don't know madanos exact sitauaiton, however it could be related to kaballah itself, or the efect kaballah has on some orthodx people. I really don't know much about her case though.

[EwokUtopia]

I dont even know why I am going to bother to reply to these paranoid and utterly ignorant posts, but what the fuck, I have some spare time, so here I go, perhaps it will amuse me.


The Un could establish israel because it controlled the land at the time, having been given it by the brits. they also created a palestine btw.

"And the British said 'let there be Palestine' and there was Palestine, and it was jolly good"

Do you even have any fucking Idea how ignorant this sounds???? Firstly, the British stole Palestine (which was a part of the oppressive Ottoman Empire, which wasnt a good thing because it denied Arabs their rights for centuries, but this has hardly stopped) in a completely pointless and destructive war. Then, rather than allow the people who lived there to decide what to do with their land, which would have been the right thing to do (however you seem to have a might makes right stance on things, which is ludacris being as your a Jew [assumingly] and look what those attitudes have done to your people for the last 2000 years) they took it upon themselves to allow Europeans to settle there and establish a Western state in the heart of the Middle East. Secondly, have you ever seen an old map (http://www.telecomtally.com/blog/odds_and_ends/PalestineMap.jpg) of the middle east? That region was called Palestine for 2000 years, and the name itself comes from the word "philistine" which, as we well know, were a group of people who lived there until they were subjected to a brutal religiously led genocide, much like that of the Amalekites. But, you seem to only care for nations and national governments, as if the Nation was the highest possible form of human existance. I will not break Godwins Law by reminding you of who else thought that way, but just think about it a bit.



Israel bombed the bunker because it was being used by hezbollah

...and yet if hezbollah bombed the UN because it was hosting Israel, this would be an unforgivable terrorist act according to you. Proove to me that hezbollah was using the bunker. Even if they were, which I highly doubt, it is not a particularly wise decision to bomb the UN. Although they have commited far worse crimes in the past 2 weeks, this just blatantly shows Israels chauvanism and arrogance


israle took more land to make defnseive borders, it could have gotten far more.

Again, you present a might makes right arguement. What gave them the right to take that extra land to make defensive borders? Would it be right if North Korea took out the south because it is far more defensible to not have a western puppet at its doorstep? Do you even care about what is right and what is wrong, or do the rights of the Jewish state superceed the rights of the people who lived on the land it was built out of. Do you not see why we say this is racist? And good luck if it got more, it would have ten times as much resistance, and resistance means more money spent, and holding back money as profit is allways the first resort of any capitalist.


the land they took from egypt,jordan and syria was taken in a defenseve war and was taken not to grab resource but to take the defnsene position.

hmm....I didnt know that invasions and occupations followed by demolitions of villages and the construction of aparthied settlements are now considered defensive. Interesting theory.... <_<


I wonder wht the rules of arabs in settelments is

Ok.....WHAT FUCKING ARAB SETTLEMENTS??? are you reffering to the refugee camps in Gaza? or maybe the few unmolested Arab villages in West Bank? For the refugee camps, no Jews were forced from their land by Israel, so I have no idea why they would be there, it just makes no sense, does it? And as for the villages and towns in west bank, there are quite a few Jews in Ramallah and other towns, and there are instances of Jews who renounce zionism and accept being Palestinian while keeping their Jewish faith and culture. But the Arabs have no real control over who comes in and out of their land anymore, at least officially, which is why Arab "settlements" are repeatedly demolished by Israel to make way for Jews only settlements. Honestly, how many Arab Only settlements have been built outside Tel Aviv in the last while? They arent settlements, they are called Ghetto&#39;s. How many Christians lived in the Venetian Ghetto for instance? There is a difference between those and the Israeli settlements, and even you can appreciate that.



1) bombing of un obserivesr under cotnrol o fhezbollah is a differn story

Hezbollah controls the UN?? What the fuck are you smoking?


2) how do we knwo these civilian sare innocnet?

I guess the only real way to eliminate Hezbollah is to put all Arabs everywhere into special camps, who knows who&#39;s innocent and guilty, better bomb them all to be safe.

Does the term "innocent until prooven guilty" bear you any significance? You sound like an absolute madman and a complete imbicile, did you even think about how kids were burned alive when you wrote this trash?


3) why was this aparmetn building bombed

Good fucking question&#33;


4) coudl they have just wanted to go somewhere fast?

It is a deliberate tactic to decrease morale in West bank....How many sonic booms do you hear in America, where everyone is so speedy all the time? Do you even know about this form of terrorism? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1607450,00.html)


5) iwhy should an officer be charged with something that was probably an accident

Its not a fucking accident if he shoots her while she is running away in terror and walks up to her wounded body laying on the ground, sets his gun to fully automatic, and empties every single bullet in his clip into her fucking body&#33; Her name was Iman al-Hams (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3748054.stm) Thanks for insisting on prooving your ignorance on this conflict in so many ways, it really makes my job a whole lot easier&#33;


6) spies using foriegn passports..thats unuaul laugh.gif

Of their supposed Allies to spy on Canada, who helps pay their fucking bills with our tax dollars? Thats just sheer insolence.


except since even fake massaces make it out im sure a real one would.

Is it hard to say "La La La I Cant Hear You La La La&#33;" with your head burried in sand? or perhaps you forget that there are those who deny that there were massacres against Jews too. Your the same as them.


1) since when is kidnapping soliders from behind thie rnaitaonl boundies a legaitamt act?

Cause Israel has taken no prisoners of war within Lebanese borders.......yeahh... When I said a legitimate act, I meant that they targetted the military, not civillians, as Israel has done almost exclusivly in this conflict (they arent doing to well against Hezbollah :D )


3) do you really think hezbollah could be negoatied with?

Well they offered negotiation. Israel cant be negotiated with if they refuse to even talk while their civillians are being killed, as well as their blatant terrorist campaign against the Lebanese people. Nasrallah Seems like he is far more willing to talk that Olmert.


1) the reason their is no end to viclien inth e region is that nutsos like hezbollah cant&#39; stand there is a jewsih state where muslims once ruled

Which is why they are taking back Spain, Portugal, and the Balkans and Crimea as well&#33; You really believe that everyone hates Israel because they are Jewish, dont you? It must be sad to be so irrationally paranoid. They cant stand Israel because Israel very rudely came in and said that their land now belongs to them and them alone, fuck you if your not a Jew, cause this is our land now. Hezbollah cant stand Israel because Israel continues to steal land from Arabs and demolish their buildings, uproot their crops, and ruin their lives. Hezbollah can not stand Israel because they take thousands of Young Men who dare speak up against this oppression (very very very very few of whom actually kill innocent Israeli civillians) prisoner and ruin their lives. You have a very paranoid worldview. They hate the Jewish state because the Jewish state hates them, not because it isnt a Muslim state. Lebannon is not a Muslim state, it requires its 3 top officials to be comprised of a Sunni, a Shiite, and a Maronite Christian, because those are the 3 groups of people who largely inhabbit the country, if there was a significant Jewish population, they would be represented similarly. Tell me, when was the last time there has been a high ranking non-Jewish Israeli official?


2) the reaosn thier is violicne is nutsos like hamas think its unfair that the west is greater than islam where they think islam should be the greatest

...no, it is because the Unfair west exploits them and keeps them poor and kicks them from their land. Not all resistance in the Middle East is Islamic by a long shot, but you seem to fail to realise this. and not all Islamic resistance wants to make it a muslim only state, they, for the most part, want to stop being exploited and oppressed, just like you would if you were in a similar situation.


3) the sourc eof thier anger is not israels soliders, but israel itself, which they view as an offesn to them and their greatness.

You are unwittingly right on this one, but I dont think you understand how this statement is correct. Israel is a state, a nation, it is not a group of people, people do not need nationality, we have not needed it for thousands of years, and the two hundred years that we have had it has seen wars that have lead to the deaths of countless millions. All because of Borders and nationalistic pride. Why do you think World war 1 started? And, why do you think Israel exists? it is a consequence of the first world war, which was started by pointless nationalistic ambitions that led to the senseless deaths of millions of young men. Bullshit. Israel is an entity that basically came onto a new land, displaced the majority of the previous inhabitants and replaced them by a new group, told the new group that they are a seperate entity (though both are comprised of human beings) from the old group, and made them fearful of the Arabs. This is you, chum, and millions of other hoplesly brainwashed and paranoid Israelis and Americans who most of us want nothing more than to liberate you from your fear and hurtful pride, not destroy you. Israel should be obliterated, but this is as simple as erasing some fucking lines off a map, nothing more, no slaughter of its citizens, just the end of borders and flags. This would be the no-state solution which should be persued. but obviously this will take time, so the first step is to make Israel a state that allows peoples of all ethnicities to live in peace in it.

They hate Israel because Israel came over onto their land and kicked them out. Just like you wont find too many Souix or Cree who are terribly happy about the American Government that did the same to them a hundred and twenty years ago. Its the same thing, but the sting is closer to the arabs because it is an ongoing process, so expect resistance. Resistance does not mean "kill all the Jews", drive them to the sea, but rather it means "stop the oppression and occupation and let us come home and not be treated like second class scum."


I don&#39;t know madanos exact sitauaiton, however it could be related to kaballah itself, or the efect kaballah has on some orthodx people. I really don&#39;t know much about her case though.

No, you dont know too much about the whole situation either, so either come up with something intelligent to say (and try to spell it right this time, so stop hitting all the keys at once) or stop making these ridiculous posts. You strike me as someone who has been lied to all his life by various forces, mainstream american news most of all, and I really hope that one day you can see past your prejudices and realize that Jews and Arabs can have a future together, but only if the former takes its boot off the latters face and gives them the justice they deserve. Israel will either stop the oppression itself, peacefully, or it will be stopped for them, violently, the Israelis are the ones who have the choice, and I truly hope that they choose well, for the sake of us all.

[theraven]

"And the British said &#39;let there be Palestine&#39; and there was Palestine, and it was jolly good"


don&#39;t yopu mean the UN? and actualy it was never really created since egypt and jordan took it over.


Do you even have any fucking Idea how ignorant this sounds???? Firstly, the British stole Palestine (which was a part of the oppressive Ottoman Empire, which wasnt a good thing because it denied Arabs their rights for centuries, but this has hardly stopped) in a completely pointless and destructive war.


no actually the british got it after the war in a treaty because part of th treaty invovled the dismantlting of the ottaman and german empires. britian got the palestineain territoire, and iraq, france got lebanon and syria.


Then, rather than allow the people who lived there to decide what to do with their land, which would have been the right thing to do (however you seem to have a might makes right stance on things, which is ludacris being as your a Jew [assumingly] and look what those attitudes have done to your people for the last 2000 years)

they tried to allow the peopel who lived there to settle tihngs, but they didn&#39;t want a war breaking out betwene th jews (who had actually been coming under the ottomans, the britsih were more restrivtce regaridng jewish immiragtin then the turks).


they took it upon themselves to allow Europeans to settle there and establish a Western state in the heart of the Middle East.

again jews had bene setteling there before britian took control


Secondly, have you ever seen an old map of the middle east? That region was called Palestine for 2000 years, and the name itself comes from the word "philistine" which, as we well know, were a group of people who lived there until they were subjected to a brutal religiously led genocide, much like that of the Amalekites. But, you seem to only care for nations and national governments, as if the Nation was the highest possible form of human existance. I will not break Godwins Law by reminding you of who else thought that way, but just think about it a bit.

the romans renamed the area called "judea" as "palestine "(a romanizoiant of philistine) as an insult to the conquered jews who had rebeled twice now. the Philistines were and invading people who appeared similtionsly throughtou egypt and israel as well as reports fo them in greece and italy. no ones quite sure where they come from, but they gave the natives a lot of trouble wherever they went. the only source that i know of that speiciflcy mentions the philistines is the bible, which doesnt&#39; paint them in a pretty light. you can factor some of this up to bias, but the fact remains the philistes were not exactly an innocnet bunch.




...and yet if hezbollah bombed the UN because it was hosting Israel, this would be an unforgivable terrorist act according to you.

if israel was hiding its rocket lauches in a UN builidng it would be a legit target for hezbollah.


Proove to me that hezbollah was using the bunker. Even if they were, which I highly doubt, it is not a particularly wise decision to bomb the UN. Although they have commited far worse crimes in the past 2 weeks, this just blatantly shows Israels chauvanism and arrogance


why is it not wise? will the un write an anrgy letter to israel?

as for proof-here is a group of 3 statemtns from the UN

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?en..._Every_Day&only (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21861_Hizballah_Firing_From_UN_Positions_Ev ery_Day&only)




Again, you present a might makes right arguement. What gave them the right to take that extra land to make defensive borders?

Israel took the land only after being attacked. it did not start a war for the land.


Would it be right if North Korea took out the south because it is far more defensible to not have a western puppet at its doorstep?

if south korea attacked them then yes north korea could take some land to make its border more defendbel.


Do you even care about what is right and what is wrong, or do the rights of the Jewish state superceed the rights of the people who lived on the land it was built out of. Do you not see why we say this is racist? And good luck if it got more, it would have ten times as much resistance, and resistance means more money spent, and holding back money as profit is allways the first resort of any capitalist.

you are right they would ahve more people to control, probably why they didnt take it.



hmm....I didnt know that invasions and occupations followed by demolitions of villages and the construction of aparthied settlements are now considered defensive. Interesting theory.... dry.gif


the invasion was predessesed by an attack by its nieghbors. it then invaded their teriroty, took posiotn thereof to control its borders more effectivly.



Ok.....WHAT FUCKING ARAB SETTLEMENTS???

read slowly:


I wonder wht the rules of arabs in settelments is


ie israeli arabs.


are you reffering to the refugee camps in Gaza? or maybe the few unmolested Arab villages in West Bank? For the refugee camps, no Jews were forced from their land by Israel, so I have no idea why they would be there, it just makes no sense, does it? And as for the villages and towns in west bank, there are quite a few Jews in Ramallah and other towns, and there are instances of Jews who renounce zionism and accept being Palestinian while keeping their Jewish faith and culture. But the Arabs have no real control over who comes in and out of their land anymore, at least officially, which is why Arab "settlements" are repeatedly demolished by Israel to make way for Jews only settlements. Honestly, how many Arab Only settlements have been built outside Tel Aviv in the last while? They arent settlements, they are called Ghetto&#39;s. How many Christians lived in the Venetian Ghetto for instance? There is a difference between those and the Israeli settlements, and even you can appreciate that.

1) there are no arab settlemenst because the arabs have conquere dno land.

2) what jews in rammallah denournce israel and accept being paltisenain? how manya re there?



Hezbollah controls the UN?? What the fuck are you smoking?

no but it does contorl un observitoies. ie little palces in lebanon where the un observers were hiding out, they took over them. so israel bombed.


guess the only real way to eliminate Hezbollah is to put all Arabs everywhere into special camps, who knows who&#39;s innocent and guilty, better bomb them all to be safe.

no, that woudl be far to bloody.


Does the term "innocent until prooven guilty" bear you any significance?

this is not a civilian trial in the united statse.


You sound like an absolute madman and a complete imbicile, did you even think about how kids were burned alive when you wrote this trash?

yes and thats why i want hezbollah stopped.



It is a deliberate tactic to decrease morale in West bank....How many sonic booms do you hear in America, where everyone is so speedy all the time? Do you even know about this form of terrorism?

it doesnt happen in the US because it is outlawed here. it cold be israel just wants to go places fast...



Its not a fucking accident if he shoots her while she is running away in terror and walks up to her wounded body laying on the ground, sets his gun to fully automatic, and empties every single bullet in his clip into her fucking body&#33; Her name was Iman al-Hams Thanks for insisting on prooving your ignorance on this conflict in so many ways, it really makes my job a whole lot easier&#33;

hmm that does sound a bit overthe top, not shooting her origiannly (he was far away and probably couldnt tell) but the emptying his magizne into her. however that is far from the norm.



Of their supposed Allies to spy on Canada, who helps pay their fucking bills with our tax dollars? Thats just sheer insolence.

I don&#39;t belive they were using it to spy on canada.



Is it hard to say "La La La I Cant Hear You La La La&#33;" with your head burried in sand? or perhaps you forget that there are those who deny that there were massacres against Jews too. Your the same as them.

the difference is theres proof of the massacers against the jews.

ause Israel has taken no prisoners of war within Lebanese borders.......yeahh... When I said a legitimate act, I meant that they targetted the military, not civillians, as Israel has done almost exclusivly in this conflict (they arent doing to well against Hezbollah biggrin.gif )



Well they offered negotiation. Israel cant be negotiated with if they refuse to even talk while their civillians are being killed, as well as their blatant terrorist campaign against the Lebanese people. Nasrallah Seems like he is far more willing to talk that Olmert.


wow israels refusing to negoaite while hostilteis are still on going. that sounds...wait thats normal. who the hell negoaites while the enemy is still bombing them.



Which is why they are taking back Spain, Portugal, and the Balkans and Crimea as well&#33;

some of the nutsos do want to take it back


You really believe that everyone hates Israel because they are Jewish, dont you?

no, but to deny that many do is to deny logic.


It must be sad to be so irrationally paranoid.

it must be sad to be so deluded/


They cant stand Israel because Israel very rudely came in and said that their land now belongs to them and them alone, fuck you if your not a Jew, cause this is our land now.

except israel didnt say that.


Hezbollah cant stand Israel because Israel continues to steal land from Arabs and demolish their buildings, uproot their crops, and ruin their lives. Hezbollah can not stand Israel because they take thousands of Young Men who dare speak up against this oppression (very very very very few of whom actually kill innocent Israeli civillians) prisoner and ruin their lives.

no, hezbollah cannot stand israel because they view ti as an affordn tto arab honor. hezbollah is not a group of noble freedom fighters, its a group of sadistic pricks, a glorifed gang with RPGs, funded and trained by iran and syria. they terrorize the lebanse population turning what was once one of the most modern and free states in the middle east into a hell hole for nearly 20 years. to call hezbollah anytihng mroe then a bunch of scum sucking thugs is an insult to all who have suffered fromt hem.


You have a very paranoid worldview.

and your delusional.


They hate the Jewish state because the Jewish state hates them, not because it isnt a Muslim state.

really, which is hwy israel tries so hard to be peace with its nieghbors. they do everything short of commit suicide.



Lebannon is not a Muslim state, it requires its 3 top officials to be comprised of a Sunni, a Shiite, and a Maronite Christian, because those are the 3 groups of people who largely inhabbit the country, if there was a significant Jewish population, they would be represented similarly. Tell me, when was the last time there has been a high ranking non-Jewish Israeli official?



1) lebanons sytem is the only one in which christians are given a major role in the govnerment

2) chirstians where th emajortiy in lebanon until the civil war, during whihc many christians fled.

3) the present govenrmetn was a result of the french

4) israel is less then 20% non-jewish.thus a system like lebanosn woul dbe illogical (lebanon is fairly evenly split)

5) I don&#39;t ofllow israeli potlics closely enough to know the non-jewish high rankign ofifcals.


...no, it is because the Unfair west exploits them and keeps them poor and kicks them from their land. Not all resistance in the Middle East is Islamic by a long shot, but you seem to fail to realise this. and not all Islamic resistance wants to make it a muslim only state, they, for the most part, want to stop being exploited and oppressed, just like you would if you were in a similar situation.

the only place you can even attempt to make argument of people being kicked off their land is in israel. the rest of the middle east has probelms too, despite no israeli invaions.



You are unwittingly right on this one, but I dont think you understand how this statement is correct. Israel is a state, a nation, it is not a group of people, people do not need nationality, we have not needed it for thousands of years, and the two hundred years that we have had it has seen wars that have lead to the deaths of countless millions. All because of Borders and nationalistic pride. Why do you think World war 1 started?

wars have occured long before the modern nation state. in the punic wars the roman causlites in one major naval engangement was greater then the allied caulsitsie of WWI. the wars last for over 100 years. wars are not a modern inveiont.


And, why do you think Israel exists? it is a consequence of the first world war, which was started by pointless nationalistic ambitions that led to the senseless deaths of millions of young men. Bullshit. Israel is an entity that basically came onto a new land, displaced the majority of the previous inhabitants and replaced them by a new group, told the new group that they are a seperate entity (though both are comprised of human beings) from the old group, and made them fearful of the Arabs. This is you, chum, and millions of other hoplesly brainwashed and paranoid Israelis and Americans who most of us want nothing more than to liberate you from your fear and hurtful pride, not destroy you. Israel should be obliterated, but this is as simple as erasing some fucking lines off a map, nothing more, no slaughter of its citizens, just the end of borders and flags. This would be the no-state solution which should be persued. but obviously this will take time, so the first step is to make Israel a state that allows peoples of all ethnicities to live in peace in it.


i know you don&#39;t care much for nation states, but get over it, they exist, people care about them. *****in gabout why people shouldn&#39;t care isn&#39;t an argument.



No, you dont know too much about the whole situation either, so either come up with something intelligent to say (and try to spell it right this time, so stop hitting all the keys at once) or stop making these ridiculous posts. You strike me as someone who has been lied to all his life by various forces, mainstream american news most of all, and I really hope that one day you can see past your prejudices and realize that Jews and Arabs can have a future together, but only if the former takes its boot off the latters face and gives them the justice they deserve. Israel will either stop the oppression itself, peacefully, or it will be stopped for them, violently, the Israelis are the ones who have the choice, and I truly hope that they choose well, for the sake of us all.

what does this have to do with madona?