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Nachie
17th July 2006, 00:29
First Report : ARA campaign against the pro-life assault in Jackson, Mississippi

hello everyone!

Anti-Racist Action is in Jackson, Mississippi for the next three weeks, fighting to keep the last abortion clinic in the state from being shut down by militant pro-lifers.

This issue couldn't be more relevant or important. If these pro-life wingnuts are allowed to win, abortion will be essentially illegal in Mississippi. Also, a pro-life victory here will embolden these groups and harden their resolve, leading to many, many more right-wing assaults on clinics across the country. A failure to stop them here could well snowball out of control.

We are currently fighting Operation Save America, a confrontational anti-choice group made up of families and hotheaded, super masculine men. The Minutemen are rumored to be in town, with reinforcements on the way. At the end of the month, a notoriously militant group known as Oh, Saratoga will be arriving for a week of actions. These are our identified enemies at this point, not counting lone wolf wingnuts and various white supremacist and fascist groups who may make an appearance at any time.

After driving for two days and 17 hours, we arrived on the morning of Friday, the 14th. We immediately dove into preparation, securing places for everyone to stay and working out logistical, intelligence, and security matters. Our plate was especially full when one considers that four of the five initial advance vehicles broke down on the way, two of them breaking down twice. Bad luck? Who knows...

After working out the infrastructure we needed to operate here, we rolled on Saturday the 15th with about 20 people to help protect a NOW (National Organization of Women) rally from the pro-lifers. Although the area was crawling with uniformed and plainclothes police and two school buses of riot cops were sitting right at the edge of the event, the OSA fascists came right in and were met with an effective ARA blockade. We were able to hold their initial scout team, who were carrying signs displaying aborted fetuses and bible scripture, for about 30 minutes. At that point, OSA members came into two other sides of the park carrying massive, six foot high pictures of dead fetuses. Although we were stretched very thin at this point, we were still able to go person-to-person and hinder their movement towards the stage. Things escalated when the fascists began shoving and hitting ARA members with their signs. Seeing this, the police broke out their beating sticks and riot shields and began to try to intervene.

After a few more minutes of this, and repeated warnings and threats from the police, NOW members began adopting our harassment tactics, pushing OSA members back, blocking them with their pro-choice signs, and even linking arms and surrounding individual members! It was an exciting time; OSA was being blocked on all sides, the pro-choice rally was protected, and we were winning. At this point, the police declared that there was a "bomb threat" and began pushing EVERYONE out of the park, whacking some of us with their shields as they herded us onto the sidewalk. With half of the crowd on one side of the street and the other half on the other, chaos began to creep into the equation. The police began to lose their cool, and there were several heated shouting matches. Shortly thereafter, the permit ended and everyone was ejected from the area. Apparently the ATF bomb robot was brought out and blew up a "suspicious package" but many of us are somewhat skeptical. Whether it was a legitimate bomb threat or the police fabricated one, it sure seemed like they were on OSA's side.

I am about to run out of time on this public computer, but I will be writing a report on today's actions sometime tonight or tomorrow. We are acting effectively, but we desperately need more people. Contact us and get down here! There's the widest range of tactics imaginable being employed here at this point and it's only day three of the three week campaign.

Come down South and help us put these fundamentalist bigots in their place. Let's give 'em the boot and keep abortion safe and legal in Mississippi!

For Unrestricted Reproductive Freedom for All.
No Pasaran! Pasaremos
Asheville Anti-Racist Action.
[email protected]
828-335-7329

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Report and Call to Action from Reproductive Freedom Summer in Jackson, Miss.

by Road, Central Texas Anti-Racist Action

In the past 20 years, the religious right has declared war on reproductive freedom and women’s rights. The latest battle in this war is taking place this week in Jackson Mississippi, where the right-wing group Operation Save America (OSA) is waging a campaign to shut down the last abortion clinic in the state of Mississippi.

The battle started the morning of Saturday, July 15 with about 40 members and allies of OSA picketing in front of the Jackson Women’s Health Organization clinic, but at the same time, women’s rights groups were planning their opposition. The National Organization of Women (NOW) held a rally in a public park in downtown Jackson at noon, with Radical Women, World Can’t Wait, Anti-Racist Action (ARA), and Common Ground activists participating.

The rally began with music and speakers from the various groups while OSA activists began to wander in with their 3’x5’ foot signs of aborted fetuses. Activists affiliated with ARA moved to confront and halt the advancement of OSA, despite the urges of NOW organizers to ignore OSA and not turn attention from the rally. NOW had been assured by the police that they would be providing security. However, the police soon made it clear that they would not restrict the movement of OSA in a public park, and OSA made it clear that their intentions were to proceed to the stage and end the rally. On ARA and an increasing number of NOW and Radical Women activists kept the OSA activists at bay and the NOW rally going.

By 1:00pm, it was no longer and issue of keeping OSA off the stage or out of the crowd, because the police began pushing everybody out of the park because of a bomb threat that had been received. Police pushed about 200 women’s rights activists across the street to a narrow sidewalk against a wall, but stopped before they had pushed the OSA activists out of the park. The police had effectively turned the park used by NOW and allied groups over to OSA.

Furious at the police betrayal, (or for others, un-amused by typical police behavior), the people from the NOW rally defiantly crossed the street back to park, despite police orders, to confront OSA by covering their signs with pink and black banners and shouting down their mindless preaching with every insult imaginable. The afternoon was filled with the dark underbelly of the radical right and their police protection. Women’s rights activists would be hit with signs by OSA and then threatened with arrest by the police for “pushing”. A young man with a t-shirt proclaiming, “Homosexuality is a sin. Islam is a lie. Abortion is Murder,” blamed queers for everything from murder and crime to the dissolution of families and told one young man, “If you are a homosexual, somebody should put a gun to your head and blow it off.” Police denied women’s rights activists access to their buckets of water bottles, which were still in the evacuated part of the park, but could be seen drinking it themselves.

Around 2:45 pm, police completely pushed every one out of the park after which it is reported they detonated the suspected bomb. In a way, the victory went to OSA for successfully disrupting and ending the NOW rally, but there was a victory for the reproductive freedom movement. NOW organizers lost faith in the words of the police, after they made it abundantly clear whose side they were on. Also, many people realized the utility and empowerment of more confrontational and militant tactics in dealing with Christo-fascists. Both of these led to more collaboration and solidarity between the variety of groups fighting for reproductive freedom in Jackson.

The action picked up again the next morning at the local Unitarian Universalist church, which has been providing housing and other support for out of town women’s rights activists. OSA was planning to protest at the church during their Sunday services, and the church requested the presence of ARA, NOW, and the other groups in countering the OSA and defending the church. About an hour before the service, OSA began arriving across the street from the church, with the women’s rights groups at the church waiting. An automobile barricade had been formed around the parking lot, leaving only the entrance and exit open. OSA members had to move their cars from the parking lots across the street at the demand of the police because they were on private property.

Soon, one OSA member attempted to drive in to the church parking lot. Militant women’s rights activists positioned themselves in front of the car, stopping it only feet into the parking lot, but them the OSA man kept moving forward into the activists. People climbed on top of the hood, windows were shattered, and panels smashed in. The man, who was scared to death, and his broken car were escorted out of the parking lot by police, under threat of arrest if he didn’t leave. Later, another OSA man was threatened with arrest when he tried to walk onto church property and was physically blocked by militant women’s rights activists. The police sympathy was a pleasant surprise compared to the previous day’s clear police antagonism, which is expected to return as the week wears on.

The rest of the morning, OSA was held to the other side of the street and their preaching on the sound system was drowned out by shouting and noisemakers.

The weekend’s events have been both stressful and exciting, but have generally succeeding in frustrating OSA’s efforts and demonstrating our “no compromise” stance towards defending reproductive freedom and women’s rights. We are asking all concerned people to come to Jackson and stand with us in solidarity for women’s rights. Events are continuing all week and even into August, because as OSA leaves, Oh Saratoga is arriving to continue their war against women’s lives and freedom.

For more information, email Asheville ARA at [email protected] or call 828-335-7329

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Clinic Defense in Jackson, Mississippi

Today (Sunday) was an ultimate win for Anti-Racist Action. We were asked by the Unitarian Universalist Church to provide protection during their Sunday service from Operation Save America (previously known as Operation Rescue) who came bearing 10 foot signs of an aborted fetus, set up a speaker on a tripod, and began yelling (from across the street) about how we're all going to burn in hell because we allow 50 million unborn children to die in the U.S. alone. Many read from the bible at length, told us they wanted to save us from the depths of hell (by turning to Jesus, of course) and called us cowards and shameful when we wore our bandanas as face masks (even though almost all of them had either a digital camcorder or a camera)

The Jackson Police, upon viewing the arrival of the Pro-Lifers, warned them that they had parked their cars on private property (an auto-body shop parking lot) and that they had to leave. After about 10 minutes of the Christians ignoring the police requests, the police stopped making them, and allowed them to stay.

The real treat of the day, however, came when a "Pro-lifer" tried to enter the church parking lot. Even though we had reiterated that they were not welcome, and not allowed on private property, one man, wearing a "Jesus is the standard" shirt, tried to drive his car into the lot. Affinity groups assembled, locked arms, and stopped his progress. He tried to open up his car door only to be met by a member of the congregation standing directly in front of it, and holding a "Protect Women's Rights" sign up to his window. During the chaos and yelling, the car's hood was dented, the windshield was badly cracked, and the passenger door was caved in. Despite several cameras being present (from both sides) there is no footage showing who was responsible for the damage.

After that, no other car attempted to enter the church area.

Several individuals, however, did try to cross the street to preach to us about the Bible. Again, groups assembled and prevented him from stepping foot onto the grass parking lot. A police officer slowly sauntered over, and said "Excuse me, Sir, but you're going to have to go back to your side." The man tried to say that it was public property, and which point we clarified that it was private, and harassed him back to the other side of the street.

The fun dwindled around 12 pm (Many of them were severely overweight, and needed a break to get a meal from McDonald's) after having started around 9 a.m.

(I just want to make clear that I think that last jab at "overweight" people is totally random and unnecessary. Nevertheless this is an extremely important issue as should be apparent from the above reports. Support ARA! - Nachie)

which doctor
17th July 2006, 00:42
oh nachie! you are so anti-worker and primitivist!

good story btw

Nachie
17th July 2006, 00:46
somebody stop me before I do it again!

More Fire for the People
17th July 2006, 01:04
Top-notch work. My hat's off to the ARA. It's good to see people stick up for human rights.

bcbm
17th July 2006, 02:45
Awesome work, keep it up!

violencia.Proletariat
17th July 2006, 05:34
Defending a church against christian fascists :huh:

Zero
17th July 2006, 08:31
Woo! I loved the story Nachie! If I had any way to get down there I would. Solidarity from Oregon, and like I said dude! You gotta get up here sometime!

Nachie
17th July 2006, 08:55
I'm not sure if it's entirely clear, but I'm not in Jackson. Unfortunately I have some prior events to attend.

But there are comrades down there, and I wish them the best.

Nachie
17th July 2006, 23:18
URGENT URGENT URGENT

The news I'm getting is that a lot of people have to leave within the next few days and cannot stay for the whole three weeks. This means ARA ranks are going to be depleted and they badly need people who can come down to Jackson, even for just a day, to do so!

Mujer Libre
18th July 2006, 02:19
Great story. I hope more people turn up to fill in the gaps.

Nothing satisfies me quite like pissing off anti-choicers and seeing them give up and leave.

violencia.Proletariat
18th July 2006, 02:23
So when did they actually defend the clinic? From what I read, they marched in a park and then defended a church. How exactly is the clinic under threat? Right wing extremists can't physically shut down the center permanently. Besides this is america, why aren't the clinic workers defending private property with their 2 amendment rights? ;)

bcbm
18th July 2006, 08:35
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 08:35 PM
Defending a church against christian fascists :huh:
Unitarian Universalists are basically the antithesis of Christian fascism. Their religious philosophy as I understand it is best described as "Whatever."

violencia.Proletariat
18th July 2006, 23:39
Originally posted by black banner black gun+Jul 18 2006, 01:36 AM--> (black banner black gun @ Jul 18 2006, 01:36 AM)
[email protected] 16 2006, 08:35 PM
Defending a church against christian fascists :huh:
Unitarian Universalists are basically the antithesis of Christian fascism. Their religious philosophy as I understand it is best described as "Whatever." [/b]
...they're still defending a church.

bcbm
19th July 2006, 00:20
Originally posted by violencia.Proletariat+Jul 18 2006, 02:40 PM--> (violencia.Proletariat @ Jul 18 2006, 02:40 PM)
Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 18 2006, 01:36 AM

[email protected] 16 2006, 08:35 PM
Defending a church against christian fascists :huh:
Unitarian Universalists are basically the antithesis of Christian fascism. Their religious philosophy as I understand it is best described as "Whatever."
...they're still defending a church. [/b]
Are you fucking serious? Yeah, you're right, maybe they should've been like "Fuck religion and churches!" and let the fascists come right in and start harassing and attacking all of people there to help protect the abortion clinic.

:rolleyes:

Get real.

violencia.Proletariat
19th July 2006, 00:45
Originally posted by black banner black gun+Jul 18 2006, 05:21 PM--> (black banner black gun @ Jul 18 2006, 05:21 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 18 2006, 01:36 AM

[email protected] 16 2006, 08:35 PM
Defending a church against christian fascists :huh:
Unitarian Universalists are basically the antithesis of Christian fascism. Their religious philosophy as I understand it is best described as "Whatever."
...they're still defending a church.
Are you fucking serious? Yeah, you're right, maybe they should've been like "Fuck religion and churches!" and let the fascists come right in and start harassing and attacking all of people there to help protect the abortion clinic.

:rolleyes:

Get real. [/b]
Who cares if the fascists attack a church. I thought you were trying to defend an abortion clinic not a fucking church. What I don't understand about this situation is, why is the abortion clinic in crisis of being shut down by christian fascists if it's being left unprotected while you guys are at a church, and they aren't attacking it?

bcbm
19th July 2006, 01:39
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 03:46 PM
Who cares if the fascists attack a church.
Yeah, who gives a shit when fascists attack churches!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1305000/images/_1307726_bombing.jpg

Or synagogues, too!

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/Holocaust/kn7.jpg

No, but seriously, ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS? "The action picked up again the next morning at the local Unitarian Universalist church, which has been providing housing and other support for out of town women’s rights activists. OSA was planning to protest at the church during their Sunday services." So, to answer your question, maybe the people there to defend a woman's right to choose and support the abortion clinic care? :rolleyes: Come on, you seriously can't be this dense and, as I already mentioned, the term "church" is used rarely loosely with the UU, since they really don't have any coherent platform or "religion," really.


I thought you were trying to defend an abortion clinic not a fucking church.

Are you able to make connections between simple ideas?

1. People from out of town are coming to help defend and support the clinic.

Do you follow me so far?

2. The church is offering shelter and support to activists from out of town, and is being threatened by the anti-choicers.

Can you make the connection between the church and the abortion clinic and see where defending them both MAKES SENSE?


What I don't understand about this situation is, why is the abortion clinic in crisis of being shut down by christian fascists if it's being left unprotected while you guys are at a church, and they aren't attacking it?

OSA has been protesting the clinic but that morning the chose to support the Unitarian Universalist church, where out of town people in support of the clinic were staying and receiving support.

Keyser
19th July 2006, 01:47
Sadly the anti-abortion movement is gaining strength in America.

I support any action to use militant tactics of defence against the Christian Fascists and their allies in their attempt to shut down the reproductive rights of women.

I only hope that the Christian Fascists lose this battle, but things seem to favour them at the moment.

Like with their attacks on LGBT communities, the Christian Fascists only get away with this in the absence of dissent and resistence to their plans.

It is up to all of us on the revolutionary left to stop them in their tracks.

violencia.Proletariat
19th July 2006, 03:06
Yeah, who gives a shit when fascists attack churches!

This arguements already been had.


which has been providing housing and other support for out of town women’s rights activists.

They should be staying at the abortion clinic if its under "constant attack" as the article makes it out to be.


since they really don't have any coherent platform or "religion," really.

...they're still theists. How do you activists wish to expand your "networks" if you dont even utilize networks for support, but instead rely on churches to take care of your needs?


Can you make the connection between the church and the abortion clinic and see where defending them both MAKES SENSE?

I understand the situation perfectly before your explanation. What I have a problem with is that they're using a church for support. Especially since these people are all diy types no? Most of the ARA people around here are.

Zero
19th July 2006, 07:40
violencia.Proletariat. I encourage you to find free lodging for (what sounds like) 100-200 people for free, for three weeks. Don't be overly-critical of minute details like where they stay, when he is expending quite a bit of effort fighting the good fight.

Armchair criticisms should be taken with a grain of salt. I hope you know that.

bcbm
19th July 2006, 09:18
This arguements already been had.


I was being hyperbolic, hence the "but seriously" after all the pretty pictures of things fascists attacked that were religious in nature.


They should be staying at the abortion clinic if its under "constant attack" as the article makes it out to be.

Just because the anti-choicers aren't skulking around at night preparing to attack it with bombs and pipes doesn't mean it isn't under threat. The clinic probably doesn't have the facilities to house that many people.


...they're still theists. How do you activists wish to expand your "networks" if you dont even utilize networks for support, but instead rely on churches to take care of your needs?

"You activists?" Nice touch. They do rely on networks, networks of people who support the right to choose, like the Unitarian Universalists.


I understand the situation perfectly before your explanation. What I have a problem with is that they're using a church for support. Especially since these people are all diy types no? Most of the ARA people around here are.

Uh, clearly you don't understand the situation. ARA aren't the only ones there, there are activists from other groups as well (like NOW). Why do you give a shit if they stay at a church?

--------------


Armchair criticisms should be taken with a grain of salt. I hope you know that.

He doesn't need to get out of the armchair, man, he has ALL the answers! Now if only people on the ground fighting would wise up and nitpick everything to the point of complete ineffectiveness!

violencia.Proletariat
19th July 2006, 19:10
Just because the anti-choicers aren't skulking around at night preparing to attack it with bombs and pipes doesn't mean it isn't under threat.

2nd ammendment dude. It's a lot easier than having lots of people stay for three weeks at a time.


Why do you give a shit if they stay at a church?

I don't care if NOW stays at a church but I'm wondering why "leftists" in ARA would stay in one. But you know why I give a shit. I don't think revolutionaries (if there are any in ARA) should rely or ask for help from a fucking church. If its an institution which you wish to destroy in the future, don't fucking collaborate with it. I thought this was a lesson we learned back in Spain.


he has ALL the answers!

Yes of course, thats what I always claim ;)


Now if only people on the ground fighting would wise up and nitpick everything to the point of complete ineffectiveness!

You never know, the christians might get tired of hearing them *****ing and complaining all day.

If you want to get creative next time they show up, tell them that a homosexual communist atheist was kiddnaping pregnant women and giving them abortions in some town on the other side of the state. That'll preoccupy them for a while. :lol:

More Fire for the People
19th July 2006, 19:34
2nd ammendment dude. It's a lot easier than having lots of people stay for three weeks at a time.
Yeah, because the government really respects all those other ammendments too. Look what happened to the Black Panthers.

violencia.Proletariat
19th July 2006, 19:59
Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 19 2006, 12:35 PM

2nd ammendment dude. It's a lot easier than having lots of people stay for three weeks at a time.
Yeah, because the government really respects all those other ammendments too. Look what happened to the Black Panthers.
The black panthers never went to the NRA for help :lol:

rebelworker
19th July 2006, 21:06
Serriously VP, the left is getting whiped out everywhere, we cannot affort to turn our backs on potentioal allies at this point.

I think I was housed in a church for the millions for mumia march in Phili years ago, the place was full of anarchists who would have had nowear else to sleep otherwise.

The relity in america is that the left dosnt have the infastructure needed to be independant right now, if churches are wulling to house us great, we cant just shame all religeous people into the arms of the facists, there were progressive rleigeaous elemetns in almost every revolutipnary cause in history, untill we live in an athiest society we need to work with them. We can express our differences and as comrades criticise contradictions in the church but we need to work with them.

I cant possibly make it down there but i hope other closer can.

bcbm
19th July 2006, 21:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 10:11 AM
2nd ammendment dude. It's a lot easier than having lots of people stay for three weeks at a time.
They would probably picket away from it enough to not be on the property. The anti-choicers know the law, too.


I don't care if NOW stays at a church but I'm wondering why "leftists" in ARA would stay in one.

Because they offered their space to all of the people coming to help? It wasn't clear if ARA even stayed there, they just helped defend it.


But you know why I give a shit. I don't think revolutionaries (if there are any in ARA) should rely or ask for help from a fucking church.

I think your anarcho-purism is a one-way ticket to irrelevance. We don't have enough allies to be this fucking picky.


If its an institution which you wish to destroy in the future, don't fucking collaborate with it. I thought this was a lesson we learned back in Spain.

Are you fucking insane? The UU is nowhere near comparable to the Catholic Church in Spain and to even suggest that is ludicrous.


Yes of course, thats what I always claim ;)


Join the autonomist stalinist movement. :P

violencia.Proletariat
20th July 2006, 02:00
the left is getting whiped out everywhere

I don't think the north american movement can get any shittier than it already is. If it could it would just leave the hardcore militants which isn't a bad thing to grow off of. We don't need the "unitarian unversialist godsucking church of fucksville" to make a movement of militants grow.


I think I was housed in a church for the millions for mumia march in Phili years ago, the place was full of anarchists who would have had nowear else to sleep otherwise.

Look I'm not gonna give shit to people who stay in a church no questions asked. But what I will not stand for is defending church property or making organizational relations with a church or religion.


we cant just shame all religeous people into the arms of the facists

People who run a church are not of my concern.


We can express our differences and as comrades criticise contradictions in the church but we need to work with them.

"Express our differences" :o As anarchists expressing our differences with a church would mean KNOCKING IT DOWN.


They would probably picket away from it enough to not be on the property. The anti-choicers know the law, too.

So? If they "came to shut it down" they'd get pwned. This seems like a much more efficient way to protect the center.


I think your anarcho-purism is a one-way ticket to irrelevance. We don't have enough allies to be this fucking picky.

Sure we do its called pitching a tent.


The UU is nowhere near comparable to the Catholic Church in Spain and to even suggest that is ludicrous.

I was reffering to the popular front not the catholic church. I mean did the popular front not seem somewhat progressive? Did they not want to destroy fascism? Sure they did. But they fucked us over.


Join the autonomist stalinist movement. :P

First chapter meeting is Friday, you there?

Comrade-Z
20th July 2006, 02:54
If its an institution which you wish to destroy in the future, don't fucking collaborate with it. I thought this was a lesson we learned back in Spain.

Exactly. I will grant you all this: IF you are going to take up tactical alliances with less reactionary religious institutions in order to fight against the more reactionary ones, fine, but don't believe for a second that you'll be able to effectively or convincingly agitate for "No gods, no masters" at the same time. By granting Unitarian Univeralism, a religious institution, legitimacy through your collaborative actions, you have destroyed all credibility as advocating an anti-theist position, regardless of whatever rhetoric you spout. When you engage in pro-choice actions in this manner of collaborating with less reactionary elements, you are for the meantime no longer "anarchists," but "militant pro-choice advocates," at least in terms of outward perception. If you think that is an acceptable sacrifice to make in order to combat Christian Fascism, fine, but let's be honest about what the outcome is going to be. These actions will not significantly advance anarchism. You will garner support for the name "anarchism," although you will do almost nothing to garner support for the concepts behind the name. The UU people will think "Oh, how wonderful these anarchists are, helping us out and all," at least until you reveal your true colors as militant anti-theist class warfare revolutionaries, in which case the UU people will promptly say, "Oh my, I had no idea they were into that kind of stuff! These people are dangerous and need to be stopped!"


I think your anarcho-purism is a one-way ticket to irrelevance. We don't have enough allies to be this fucking picky.

I don't think it is being picky to refuse alliances with known enemies. Unless you don't see UU-type religion as being incompatible with whatever revolution you plan to participate in. :o But the way I see it, UU are generally pacifist, right? That means, when push comes to shove, they will reject class warfare and even actively and violently oppose those who prosecute class warfare, no? If you aren't sure, just look at what liberal "peace-police" do to class war radicals during various anti-globalization protests. The way I see it, you really don't have a choice of making UU your enemies or not, unless you want to renounce class warfare altogether. Sooner or later, they will make themselves your enemies. And using their aid now is only going to make them a stronger and a more apparently legitimate institution when the time comes to fight them as enemies. You are screwing yourself in the long run.

In addition, I think saying one thing ("No gods, no masters!") and doing another thing (conferring legitimacy to religious institutions) is a one-way ticket to irrelevancy. Just like saying "If elections could change anything, they should be make illegal" and then conferring legitimacy to bourgeois elections through actions or rhetoric.

bcbm
20th July 2006, 07:56
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 05:01 PM
So? If they "came to shut it down" they'd get pwned. This seems like a much more efficient way to protect the center.
Like I said, I am not sure of all the legal issues involved and as it stands, if they aren't attacking the church they can still be a pain in the arse and eventually get it shut down. They've done it all across the country; the fact that the clinic asked for help should be somewhat enlightening.


Sure we do its called pitching a tent.


I didn't mean just for logistics. Shunning allies on an issue like this seems silly to me.


I was reffering to the popular front not the catholic church. I mean did the popular front not seem somewhat progressive? Did they not want to destroy fascism? Sure they did. But they fucked us over.

Spain was complicated. It wasn't so much the PF fucking the anarchists over as it was the Stalinists in control of the PF daming all other resistance options. This isn't really what is happening here and this really isn't comparable to the Spanish Civil War. We're talking a single issue campaign that is an extreme uphill battle in the US at this point, we need to be unifying with all who support choice, not nitpicking and dividing up. That's the same kind of shit that has ground many traditional socialist groups into nothing.



First chapter meeting is Friday, you there?

You know it baby.

----------------------


I don't think it is being picky to refuse alliances with known enemies. Unless you don't see UU-type religion as being incompatible with whatever revolution you plan to participate in.

Uh, this is about an abortion clinic not class war, at this point.


And using their aid now is only going to make them a stronger and a more apparently legitimate institution when the time comes to fight them as enemies. You are screwing yourself in the long run.

UU is mostly liberal hippies who probably agree with us on a number of issues. They can be pricks, but the few I've encountered... nevermind, this discussion is entirely ridiculous at this juncture.

Lings
22nd July 2006, 02:21
If i remember correctly, one of the four points of unity that ara work by, is non secterian defence of all anti fascists, and at the church, NOW were staying. If you dont like it, due to some sort of secterian anti-religion crusade thats typical of pure-at-heart anarchists, thats fine by me, you wont be in a position of making change ever anyway.. but i got one question for you..
what would you have done, when you heard about the NOW people being attacked by the christian fascists?
Fucking watched?

Comrade-Z
22nd July 2006, 03:46
Hmm, I thought I had posted a reply, but...weird...oh well.


Uh, this is about an abortion clinic not class war, at this point.

Correct, and I'm willing to grant you that IF you think that defending this abortion clinic is worth collaborating with less reactionary elements, then fine, but this collaboration also entails that you sacrifice all class war and anti-theist agitation for the meantime or else having your message come across as hopelessly confused.


UU is mostly liberal hippies who probably agree with us on a number of issues. They can be pricks, but the few I've encountered... nevermind, this discussion is entirely ridiculous at this juncture.

But what about the issues that really matter--the ones that will split people into opposing camps come the time of revolution? I'm not optimistic that the UU people will support us. And any legitimacy that we lend them now will make them a stronger opponent when the moment of showdown comes.

And its not entirely ridiculous. It is re-evaluation of revolutionary praxis.


what would you have done, when you heard about the NOW people being attacked by the christian fascists?
Fucking watched?

I'm not necessarily against allying with the less reactionary elements against the more reactionary ones, as a principle. I'm just trying to remind everyone of the consequences of that strategy (for instance, you won't be making much progress as far as advancing anarchist ideas of class war and anti-religion. That may be okay for the time being. That's your judgment).

On the other hand, why should it bother us if two groups of reactionaries fight and destroy each other? I don't know much about this "NOW" group to say whether they are reactionary or not, but the UU definitely aren't our allies.

Zero
22nd July 2006, 05:24
Any updates Nachie?

bcbm
22nd July 2006, 11:14
Originally posted by Comrade-[email protected] 21 2006, 06:47 PM
Hmm, I thought I had posted a reply, but...weird...oh well.
You were wrong, suckah! ;)


Correct, and I'm willing to grant you that IF you think that defending this abortion clinic is worth collaborating with less reactionary elements, then fine, but this collaboration also entails that you sacrifice all class war and anti-theist agitation for the meantime or else having your message come across as hopelessly confused.

I don't see why it negates Class War agitation and I've never bothered to "agitate" against theism in the first place, so nothing lost here. Its important to support struggles that are immediately neccessary for our comrades (like abortion, national liberation, etc) as well as long term revolutionary projects; I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.


But what about the issues that really matter--the ones that will split people into opposing camps come the time of revolution? I'm not optimistic that the UU people will support us. And any legitimacy that we lend them now will make them a stronger opponent when the moment of showdown comes.

If I recall, the UU at least professes a commitment to things like justice, equality, peace.. all of the usual left-wing theism stuff. So they could really go either way on "the issues that really matter," and at this point we're just talking about our wet dreams anyway. Any legitimacy we lend them now in support of tactical struggles to protect women's freedom won't make them "stronger."


On the other hand, why should it bother us if two groups of reactionaries fight and destroy each other? I don't know much about this "NOW" group to say whether they are reactionary or not, but the UU definitely aren't our allies.

Because it has serious consequences for the women of Mississippi, and in turn, the rest of the country?

Cheung Mo
22nd July 2006, 22:55
I'm fucking offended by all of the authoritarian Leninist pigs who decry an alliance with the Unitarian-Universalist Church. They've done a Hell of a lot of good for women, for refugees, and for groups that are being oppressed by the reactionary establishment.

To insist on ideological and theological purity (which is actually a non issue in this case, as a sizable majority of UU members don't actually believe in God) is to diminish the threat that this strand of the far-right and AmeriKKKristianity pose to virtually everyone in both the U.S. and Canada. The liberal left and the socialist left have more or less the same points of disagreement with the North American religious far-right and must work together if we wish to win this vital front of the People's War.

Just as the large number of anarcho-capitalists and libertarian conservatives in the cannabis legalisation movement (including prominent Canadian activist Marc Emery) will not turn me againist it, so will the number of left-liberal interests on the side of religious freedom, civil liberties, and gender and sexual equality not diminish the ferocity with which I and hopefully countless others fight for these most noble of causes.

Why don't all the Stalinist assholes in this topic honour the homophobia and misogyny that has characterised the regimes of their "comrades" and foirmer "comrades" in North Korea, the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, Albania, and Romania and join the motherfucking religious wackos: Stalinists and National Bolsheviks had no problem working with neo-Nazis, Islamists, Hasidics, and fundamentalists in stopping Moscow's Gay Pride parade.

Lings
22nd July 2006, 23:50
Read who is saying what in this thread before you lash out at an enemy that does not exist.

violencia.Proletariat
23rd July 2006, 09:47
Originally posted by Cheung Mo+Jul 22 2006, 03:56 PM--> (Cheung Mo @ Jul 22 2006, 03:56 PM)

[/b]

bbbg
If I recall, the UU at least professes a commitment to things like justice, equality, peace.. all of the usual left-wing theism stuff.

The united states government caims to be all of this too.


I'm fucking offended by all of the authoritarian Leninist pigs who decry an alliance with the Unitarian-Universalist Church.

I was the one who "decryed" an alliance with them. However I am not a leninist but an anarchist. I'm glad to see your practicing your sectarianism.


They've done a Hell of a lot of good for women, for refugees, and for groups that are being oppressed by the reactionary establishment.

Where? And what does any of this have to do with opposing an alliance with them? They are a religion.


The liberal left and the socialist left have more or less the same points of disagreement with the North American religious far-right and must work together if we wish to win this vital front of the People's War.

Actually the "liberal left" just don't want these people in office. The "socialist left" doesn't want these people, at all. :lol:


will not turn me againist it

A revolutionary organization must by deffinition not make alliances with groups that it's opposed to in its principles and theory.


Why don't all the Stalinist assholes in this topic honour the homophobia and misogyny that has characterised the regimes of their "comrades" and foirmer "comrades" in North Korea, the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, Albania, and Romania and join the motherfucking religious wackos: Stalinists and National Bolsheviks had no problem working with neo-Nazis, Islamists, Hasidics, and fundamentalists in stopping Moscow's Gay Pride parade.

Listen moron, you can kiss church ass all day long. But I will not allie myself with a bunch of fucking psuedo intellectual god suckers. If they want to work on an issue as the same side as the revolutionary left, fine. But we should never work in alliance with them.

bolshevik butcher
23rd July 2006, 11:28
Originally posted by Cheung [email protected] 22 2006, 07:56 PM
I'm fucking offended by all of the authoritarian Leninist pigs who decry an alliance with the Unitarian-Universalist Church.
:huh:

See it's typical of anarchists to stay 'pure' and criticise comrades doing good work and activley defending women's rights over a petty issue, that is the typical action of an ultra-leftist. I don't understand why you have then linked this with leninism, i haven't seen a single leninist crticise their work and i hope i dont.

bcbm
23rd July 2006, 12:06
If they want to work on an issue as the same side as the revolutionary left, fine. But we should never work in alliance with them.

Divide to win! :rolleyes:

violencia.Proletariat
23rd July 2006, 23:21
Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 23 2006, 05:07 AM

If they want to work on an issue as the same side as the revolutionary left, fine. But we should never work in alliance with them.

Divide to win! :rolleyes:
Hey lets work with the bourgeois liberal state in order to defeat fascism! That sounds like an effective way to defeat a common enemy, oh wait :rolleyes:

Hey lets work with a church to do this...this and this... :rolleyes:

Black Dagger
24th July 2006, 15:04
Originally posted by Clenched Fist+Jul 23 2006, 06:29 PM--> (Clenched Fist @ Jul 23 2006, 06:29 PM)
Cheung [email protected] 22 2006, 07:56 PM
I'm fucking offended by all of the authoritarian Leninist pigs who decry an alliance with the Unitarian-Universalist Church.
:huh:

See it's typical of anarchists to stay 'pure' and criticise comrades doing good work and activley defending women's rights over a petty issue, that is the typical action of an ultra-leftist. I don't understand why you have then linked this with leninism, i haven't seen a single leninist crticise their work and i hope i dont. [/b]
What are you talking about?

The people participating in this thread, like the ones supporting the action are anarchist not leninists, the thread was started by nachie of RAAN for fuck's sake. Perhaps if you dropped your high-school dogmatic marxist act for a while, your posts might actually make sense, 'arrrghhhh! anarchists!' Grow up!

Wanted Man
24th July 2006, 15:39
I think we're getting to the point where Revleft can heave a collective sigh and say: "Cheung Mo, lol." As far as I know, I'm the first authoritarian Stalinist pig to post here.

Anyway, why even refer to them as "pro-lifers"? I hate that term. Still, great action.

bcbm
24th July 2006, 16:00
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2006, 02:22 PM
Hey lets work with the bourgeois liberal state in order to defeat fascism! That sounds like an effective way to defeat a common enemy, oh wait :rolleyes:
Uh, the UU isn't a part of the liberal state. And besides, historically it has been leftist infighting, not siding with the bourgeois state (or not), that has allowed fascist victories.


Hey lets work with a church to do this...this and this... :rolleyes:

Receiving help from less-than traditional allies isn't a negation of our belief in class struggle. In order to secure some smaller tactical victories now that protect millions of people (like abortion), we need to make some compromises. Boo hoo, that's life, deal with it.

And you don't have the basic knoweldge of what the UU even is or believes (clearly), you just hear "church" and start shitting all over yourself.

bolshevik butcher
24th July 2006, 16:39
Originally posted by Black Dagger+Jul 24 2006, 12:05 PM--> (Black Dagger @ Jul 24 2006, 12:05 PM)
Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 23 2006, 06:29 PM

Cheung [email protected] 22 2006, 07:56 PM
I'm fucking offended by all of the authoritarian Leninist pigs who decry an alliance with the Unitarian-Universalist Church.
:huh:

See it's typical of anarchists to stay 'pure' and criticise comrades doing good work and activley defending women's rights over a petty issue, that is the typical action of an ultra-leftist. I don't understand why you have then linked this with leninism, i haven't seen a single leninist crticise their work and i hope i dont.
What are you talking about?

The people participating in this thread, like the ones supporting the action are anarchist not leninists, the thread was started by nachie of RAAN for fuck's sake. Perhaps if you dropped your high-school dogmatic marxist act for a while, your posts might actually make sense, 'arrrghhhh! anarchists!' Grow up! [/b]
Emmm i was reffering to the poster who was criticising those violenca proletariat, who is an anarchist.......

And yes there certinaly are positive elements to the anarhcist movment and I am happy to work with them. However the things I sad above are things that I have ntoiced in anarhcists in the past.

violencia.Proletariat
24th July 2006, 17:23
Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 24 2006, 09:01 AM




Uh, the UU isn't a part of the liberal state.

:rolleyes: It was an example of the same thing I'm talking about.


And besides, historically it has been leftist infighting, not siding with the bourgeois state (or not), that has allowed fascist victories.

I'm not going to have a textbook arguement about the SCW here but alliance with the popular front was a major cause of the destruction of the revolution.


Receiving help from less-than traditional allies isn't a negation of our belief in class struggle.

A church is not an allie!


In order to secure some smaller tactical victories now that protect millions of people (like abortion), we need to make some compromises.

No we don't. Militant women don't need a church to defend their bodies. Besides, I rather doubt abortion over the entire country is at stake. Why do you think that this is happening in a backwards state? Because those moronic god suckers still have some influence there.


And you don't have the basic knoweldge of what the UU even is or believes (clearly), you just hear "church" and start shitting all over yourself.

Let us take a look,


Much biblical material is mythical or legendary. Not that it should be discarded for that reason! Rather, it should be treasured for what it is.

Yes let us treasure it :rolleyes:


We also respect the sacred literature of other religions.

So that means they respect peoples rights to worship religions that involve wife beating eh? What happens when one of the members claims their freedom is being violated when they're getting criticized for beating their wife? Your UUites will probably agree :lol:


Unitarian Universalists aspire to truth as wide as the world - we look to find truth anywhere, universally.

Yes they branch out as far as they can because less and less people are into religion.


I don't really see why your taking the time to defend this? This is like a cheap version of "liberation theology." These people are liberals at best and not to be depended upon. They show no commitment to the revolutionary overthrow of the state and the social revolution (which includes the destruction of religion as we know it, including them).

Black Dagger
24th July 2006, 17:35
Originally posted by Clenched Fist
Emmm i was reffering to the poster who was criticising those violenca proletariat, who is an anarchist.......

I don't get it, so what you're original post is saying that it's 'so typical' for anarchists to act like 'ultra-leftists' and criticise other anarchists? Well yes, anarchists criticise other anarchists, that's a good thing...

bolshevik butcher
24th July 2006, 18:00
Becuase I find such responses indignant of anarchists in general. Obviously not so in this example but I do find in anarchism a desire to remain 'pure'.

bcbm
24th July 2006, 18:06
:rolleyes: It was an example of the same thing I'm talking about.


No, not really. :rolleyes:


I'm not going to have a textbook arguement about the SCW here but alliance with the popular front was a major cause of the destruction of the revolution.

I'm not just talking about the SCW, though most of the infighting there wasn't the anarchist's fault (though they made plenty of mistakes too).



A church is not an allie!

They're willing to offer support on this particular struggle and help defend a woman's right to choose.. on this issue, yes, they are an ally.


No we don't. Militant women don't need a church to defend their bodies. Besides, I rather doubt abortion over the entire country is at stake. Why do you think that this is happening in a backwards state? Because those moronic god suckers still have some influence there.

Maybe you haven't been paying attention to the political climate of the past few years, but abortion is being threatened across the country, at least in the places it isn't illegal for all technical purposes. The anti-choice bigots are winning right now and when we fight each other, we're doing their job for them.


Yes let us treasure it :rolleyes:

Oh noes, it isn't all true and rational, BURN IT! Can't have any mythical stories floating around, can we?! :rolleyes:


So that means they respect peoples rights to worship religions that involve wife beating eh? What happens when one of the members claims their freedom is being violated when they're getting criticized for beating their wife? Your UUites will probably agree :lol:

Oh come on, you know that isn't what they're saying. You're smarter than that (though pretending to be a dipshit about it could strengthen your argument... how, I'm not exactly sure).


I don't really see why your taking the time to defend this?

Because you're taking the time to try and shit on people for accepting aid from them.


These people are liberals at best and not to be depended upon.

I've never said we should rely on them 100% for all things ever in the future, merely that they offered assistance in this case and there is nothing wrong with accepting it.


which includes the destruction of religion as we know it, including them

Religion as we know it? You mean hierarchal institutions of oppression designed to keep the lower classes ignorant and complacent? Yes, the UU certainly fit the bill. :wacko:

Black Dagger
24th July 2006, 18:20
Originally posted by Clenched Fist+--> (Clenched Fist)Becuase I find such responses indignant of anarchists in general.[/b]

This sentence doesnt really make sense, do you mean indicative? If so, how much contact with anarchists have you actually had? (and im not talking about the internet).


Clinched Fist

Obviously not so in this example but I do find in anarchism a desire to remain 'pure'.

What do you mean?

Anarchism is probably one of the most co-opted labels around these days, the term 'anarchist' is about as 'pure' as the term 'communist' (although maybe not as bad as communist), but anarchists generally are not as strict about political self-definition as Marxist-Leninist-Trotsykist-Maoist-Stalinist-Juche Communists and adhering to dogmatic theoretical approaches, this is precisely why so many people transistion from marxist backgrounds to being anarchists (as i did, i was a marxist-leninist when i was 16 too!).

violencia.Proletariat
24th July 2006, 18:44
They're willing to offer support on this particular struggle and help defend a woman's right to choose.. on this issue, yes, they are an ally.

Back to the SCW, the republican government and stalinists were "allies" on the issue of anti-facism. I guess it was a good idea to go in alliance with them huh? :rolleyes:


The anti-choice bigots are winning right now and when we fight each other, we're doing their job for them.

Fighting each other? I have no interest in stopping the UU from doing their thing on the abortion issue. However I would not work in an alliance with them. If we happened to be doing the same thing/place/time whatever. But anarchists groups should not plan actions with these groups. I have no clue why we are even talking about this, ARA is not a revolutionary organization.


Can't have any mythical stories floating around, can we?! :rolleyes:

They value sexist, racist, class, homophobic texts. Whether or not they take it literally they still feel there is "value" to it, does that not worry you?


Yes, the UU certainly fit the bill.

The UU is organized religion. It has "places of worship", does it not? These will be "disassembled" :lol: after the revolution.

chicanoblues50
24th July 2006, 18:56
I say keep church church and politics politics... religion is fine but it has no place in a world where white assholes get elected and blow up innocent people

working_class_warrior
24th July 2006, 18:58
after the rightist burned the Quran and kicked out of the church they stayed in that was the begining of the end for them. I hear however the minute men are on there way.

bcbm
25th July 2006, 00:23
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 09:45 AM
Back to the SCW, the republican government and stalinists were "allies" on the issue of anti-facism. I guess it was a good idea to go in alliance with them huh? :rolleyes:
Apples and oranges.


I have no clue why we are even talking about this, ARA is not a revolutionary organization.

Then let's not, this clearly isn't going anywhere.


They value sexist, racist, class, homophobic texts. Whether or not they take it literally they still feel there is "value" to it, does that not worry you?

Not all parts of those texts are dripping with hate, there are other things to be found within. I doubt their interests are in the "Stone your wife" verse, but perhaps the "Love your neighbor ones." Religion has been an important part of human development whether we like it or not and recognizing that there may be some things of interest or value in religious texts doesn't worry me, no.

And let's not kid ourselves, plenty of texts and individuals we draw from were all of those things, too, does that mean we are? No, it means we can critically analyze them and take what is valuable while leaving the rest.


The UU is organized religion.

Barely.


It has "places of worship", does it not?

Meeting houses would probably be a better term. They're certainly not like a Christian church or mosque. You don't even need to believe in a god to be a UU, for christ's sakes (pun intended)!

violencia.Proletariat
25th July 2006, 06:55
Apples and oranges.

Really? Both situations are revolutionaries (or in this case ARA which has many revolutionaries in it) who are going into an alliance to fight a common enemy.


Religion has been an important part of human development

:o

The only good thing religion has done is turn people into atheists!


And let's not kid ourselves, plenty of texts and individuals we draw from were all of those things, too, does that mean we are?

I have never drawn from a text that advocates beating your wife in order to define my views, have you?


you don't even need to believe in a god to be a UU

Atheists have no place in a fucking psuedo intellectual christian discussion group. Unless of course they are turning them into atheists, which isn't happening in the UU.

bcbm
25th July 2006, 19:10
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 09:56 PM
Really? Both situations are revolutionaries (or in this case ARA which has many revolutionaries in it) who are going into an alliance to fight a common enemy.
I think war against an attempted coup that is a threat to your life and freedom is slightly different than protesting to protect a clinic.


:o

The only good thing religion has done is turn people into atheists!

Sure, champ. Sure.


I have never drawn from a text that advocates beating your wife in order to define my views, have you?

Nah, not a big fan of Proudhon myself.