The Disarmament Slogan - for all my pacifist comrades here

[Kez]

Proper easy article to read by comrade Lenin, add this to my arguments that the ruling class is holding the workers down

http://www.marxist.com/Theory/disarmament_slogan.html

(edited for link)


(Edited by mentalbunny at 11:34 am on May 26, 2003)

[James]

I read the first two sections; he's making a point and expanding upon it (meaning its too repetative for me to read it all now)


Thomas Paine on peace and the legitimacy of violence;


I am thus far a Quaker that i would gladly argee with all the world to lay aside the use of arms and settle matters by negotiation. But unless the whole world will, the matter ends and I take up my musket and thank heaven he has put it in my power

To offer some balance, here is a quote from Edmund Burke


make the revolution a parent of settlement, and not a nursery of future revolutions

From what i gather, both men agreed on the legitimacy and execution of the American revolution, but disagreed over the French revolution - which prompted Burke to write Reflections On The Revolution In France; a warning of the consequences the would follow the mismanagement change.

[mentalbunny]

Kamo, may I point out I am not a complete pacifist. If a violent revoltion took place, or I had to defend myself directly, i would, but I don't advocate violence.

[Organic Revolution]

i guess i could be a pacifist. not really though i support all revolutions. no more oil war!

[Vinny Rafarino]

You are either a pacifist or you are not. Being a pacifist with occasional violent episodes is impossible...self defense or otherwise.

[Kez]

what i was trying to show to you that pacifism or disarmanent is impossible in a capitalist country as arms are the tools of the bourgeoisie to suppress the workers, and only through revolution can there be global peace.

The reason i was against the war wasnt just for the number of deaths of iraqi civiliants, but also for the fact that this was a capitalist action, an imperialist show of brutal force, and only through revolution could we stop such wars, not through shitty calls of pacifism.

[mentalbunny]

Well I'm only 16, I can't possibly have sorted out my opinions on every subject in the world, because I don't know enough. But I would not use violence personally unless I was directly threatened and I thought it was worth living and fighting. I am totally for uprisings against dictators if led by the people themselves, and I am against imperialist violence. It all depends, I definitely don't think violence should be encouraged willy-nilly.

[Dan Majerle]

James careful when quoting Edmund Burke. He is one of the most discredited historians in history. His beliefs on the French Revolution are laughed upon today.

[James]

i'm aware. He's views have always been laughed upon, today and then.

I still think the quote makes a fair point though.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Kamo, how did you oppose the war? Did you spark a revolution or something? Or did you go on a peaceful protest?
The latter being what you accuse Mental bunny of being a supporter of..............

[Kez]

what did i do?
i showed how the war was connected to capitalism and only the fall of capitalism will bring permanent peace
while at the same time i continued my revolutionary struggle, yes. Although no i personally did not spark off the revolution as i am no Aurora.

i dont see how me going to a demonstration (which was bordering off peaceful).
Please read my posts more thoroughly i made this post specifically for mentalbunny's attention to show how capitalism is linked to these wars, and to expect peace or disarmament (sp) without the fall of capitalism is pointless. In the same way pacifism is pointless as without violent overthrow (it will be violent as the bourgeoisie wont just give up their means of production) there can be no peace.

comrade kamo

[James]

i showed how the war was connected to capitalism and only the fall of capitalism will bring permanent peace


You mean you handed out copies of the SA's long winded statement....
Many people saw the conections. Many people talked about them. Many people encouraged debate. I'm sure Mental Bunny didn't lock her self in her room and take a vow of silence.

while at the same time i continued my revolutionary struggle, yes. Although no i personally did not spark off the revolution as i am no Aurora.

Please define your "revolutionary struggle" for those who are like me, and are ignorant in your actions.

i dont see how me going to a demonstration (which was bordering off peaceful).


Please finish your sentences...

Please read my posts more thoroughly

Please make them clearer! See above for example.


i made this post specifically for mentalbunny's attention to show how capitalism is linked to these wars

Yes you are "showing" us the links that we all know...


and to expect peace or disarmament (sp) without the fall of capitalism is pointless

Please point me toward the thread in which mental bunny says this....
Stop making obvious "points" and pretending that they are a revolutionary way of thinking.

In the same way pacifism is pointless as without violent overthrow (it will be violent as the bourgeoisie wont just give up their means of production) there can be no peace.

Please see above.

So how would you have changed the Manchester demo that we both participated in?

[Kez]

rather petty...but...

"You mean you handed out copies of the SA's long winded statement....
Many people saw the conections. Many people talked about them. Many people encouraged debate. I'm sure Mental Bunny didn't lock her self in her room and take a vow of silence."

-if you didnt have patience to read it, then thats your problem. For your information, i got contact details of the people i sold the journal too and went on to meet them, and discusseed it with some success.

-i dont c what ur trying to get at with bunny, i aint sed shit against her....just gave her an article which wud be of interest to her, maybe its too long for you, why dont u leave it and go to sleep and take teh strain off ur head

"Please define your "revolutionary struggle" for those who are like me, and are ignorant in your actions. "
-Not much really, building up a local cell of comrades, regularly discussing with them, and making a larger regional cell, as you know with the meeting you cant attend coz your working (like i was, until i put the meeting first..., now i have to organise a meeting of 20-40 people, on my own, thnx mate)

i dont see how me going to a demonstration (which was bordering off peaceful) has anything to do with pacifism.

"Yes you are "showing" us the links that we all know... "
-fux ur point?

"Please point me toward the thread in which mental bunny says this....
Stop making obvious "points" and pretending that they are a revolutionary way of thinking."
-no your pissing me off and wasting my time, my comment was towards comrade bunny, she unnderstood, its irrelevent whether u did or not

How wud i have changed the demo?
i wudda got the names and details of the best comrades there, and met with them in future to be better organied than the shambolics that was that demo in march. With these comrades i wud explain the ideas of genuine marxism and create a regional cell or grouping.

now, i wish not to sour our comradely ties, as there is no place for spite in politics, and forget the politics, theres a fuckin revolution to be had, so if ur quite finished with the petty arguments, then please cud we have some proper discussion?

[James]

-if you didnt have patience to read it, then thats your problem. For your information, i got contact details of the people i sold the journal too and went on to meet them, and discusseed it with some success.


You missed the point, the point was that you just did what everyone else was doing, but you helped the SA distribute their opinion. I'd argue that not a single person didn't discuss the war on iraq. Because you helped the SA, which you percieve to be the way, as you saw stalinism to be the way once, the SWP, sects lar die dar, untill someone tells you other wise.
I'm glad you made some friends out of it. Hey maybe the SA will give you a medal when Labour becomes leftwing
*rolls eyes*


-i dont c what ur trying to get at with bunny, i aint sed shit against her....just gave her an article which wud be of interest to her, maybe its too long for you, why dont u leave it and go to sleep and take teh strain off ur head


Let me show you... You said
"what i was trying to show to you that pacifism or disarmanent ...blah blah blah"
But whats YOUR point?
Bunny had said,
"I am not a complete pacifist... I don't advocate violence. "
Your "point" is irrelevent. Its just an article you saw on SA and thought you'd post it. MB gave a reason for you posting; and it thus took the form as an attack on MB. But because you were soo keen to show what a good Labour boy you are you didn't stop to think of the relevence. Which in case you still don't get it; IS NONE.

Who here advocates disarmament???

Not much really, building up a local cell of comrades, regularly discussing with them, and making a larger regional cell, as you know with the meeting you cant attend coz your working (like i was, until i put the meeting first..., now i have to organise a meeting of 20-40 people, on my own, thnx mate)


You mean, again, you do what most people are doing. Well well done! Labour will soon be a lefty party again eh!

Its not my fault that you are now organising on your own; maybe you should learn to STOP and THINK before you ACT. This can be seen in action here, where you attack MB, and in this meeting where yes you claim to put the meeting first, but in fact you put yourself first. Leaving your "mate" to run along.

-fux ur point?

The question i keep asking you! whats the point of this post? Its attacking the pacifists... who are???

no your pissing me off and wasting my time, my comment was towards comrade bunny, she unnderstood, its irrelevent whether u did or not

No you wanted to make it public. Maybe embaress her? If it was just for her then why not PM? As it is though, its public now. Please support your "argument" and provide a simple link.

i wudda got the names and details of the best comrades there, and met with them in future to be better organied than the shambolics that was that demo in march. With these comrades i wud explain the ideas of genuine marxism and create a regional cell or grouping.

now, i wish not to sour our comradely ties, as there is no place for spite in politics, and forget the politics, theres a fuckin revolution to be had, so if ur quite finished with the petty arguments, then please cud we have some proper discussion?

Ahem. You havn't said what you'd do different. You keep avoiding the question....

Okay, say you've got your little band of elite. Now what would you have done differently?

[Kez]

i was hoping we'd stop this petty petty argument....

Like i sed, the point of the post was to show comrade bunny, and pacifists, that peace can only be acheived by revolution...

i dont see why you are trying to taint my reputation my saying i was a stalinist, yes, i was, but i was 13-15 year old at the time, and hadnt read a single piece of marxist literature ever. Listen, if you want i can name the organisations which you flirt with and seem to be quite happy with, but i really dont care....

The fact that you think the sole point of our tactics are to make labour leftwing again shows your lack of understanding of the situation, i suggest you read up on what were doing, rather than what edmund burke wrote....

"Its attacking the pacifists... who are???"
its not attacking the pacifists, if it were it would name them, and try to smear there name, rather it brings about the opposing point of view.

"I read the first two sections; he's making a point and expanding upon it (meaning its too repetative for me to read it all now)"
I bet you havent even read it, which is ironic since ur telling me to stop and think, when ur just writing thses shitty postsis coz i organisedd a meeting on a day we were both working, now calm down....

i did say what id do differently, as the stuff i wrote on the last post were not done at the demo, therefore it wud be different....

now, back to the original post, how about we discuss on that? or you wanna continue making shit comments on the way im a communist or not?

[James]

Like i sed, the point of the post was to show comrade bunny, and pacifists, that peace can only be acheived by revolution...

"for all my pacifist comrades here (mentalbunny ;))"

Please provide the link to the famous thread where mental bunny, or anyone else, claims that change can be achieved by any other means?
(says he, the New Labour boy...)

i dont see why you are trying to taint my reputation my saying i was a stalinist, yes, i was, but i was 13-15 year old at the time, and hadnt read a single piece of marxist literature ever. Listen, if you want i can name the organisations which you flirt with and seem to be quite happy with, but i really dont care....

That wasn't what i was trying to do at all. Thats your mind set - not mine.
I was pointing out that you change between groups in such a manor. Each time, it is "the" way.

Group i got a little involved with?
Certainly - The Youth Liberal Democrats. This is a surprisingly left wing group (see their contributions to their latest conference) within mainstream british politics.

I however never claimed this to be "the way" or anything, and my intensions have always been clear.

I fail to see how me joining the youth LDP is "worse" or even equal to you joining, (thus giving consent and support) NEW LABOUR, however you choose to spin it.......

The fact that you think the sole point of our tactics are to make labour leftwing again shows your lack of understanding of the situation, i suggest you read up on what were doing, rather than what edmund burke wrote....

Nah i don't know what you guys are upto. I thought the main aim was to "reclaim" the party though - i may of course been mislead.
What relevence has Burke to this?

"Its attacking the pacifists... who are???"
its not attacking the pacifists, if it were it would name them, and try to smear there name,
"for all my pacifist comrades here (mentalbunny ;))"?

rather it brings about the opposing point of view.

Opposing to what?
Everyone agrees with what Lenin has wrote about.

"I read the first two sections; he's making a point and expanding upon it (meaning its too repetative for me to read it all now)"
I bet you havent even read it,

Erm... i stated in the bit that you copied - i read the first two sections.

which is ironic since ur telling me to stop and think, when ur just writing thses shitty postsis coz i organisedd a meeting on a day we were both working, now calm down....

I havn't jumped to any assumptions... I've just replied to your statements and nature.

i did say what id do differently, as the stuff i wrote on the last post were not done at the demo, therefore it wud be different....

No you said you'd organise it differently or something. And???
I want to know what you would have done instead of a simple march?

now, back to the original post, how about we discuss on that?

Which i think everyone is in agreement with...

or you wanna continue making shit comments on the way im a communist or not?

"shit comments" that you keep avoiding.

[Kez]

The post shows how the only way to fight against wars is to fight for socialism, and only through socialism will be peace

This goes against the SWP people who believe they cud actually have a perspecctive of being against war, yet not for revolution, which is what they stood for.

It also breifly shows that socialist change is only possible through revolution:
But whoever expects that socialism will be achieved without a social revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat is not a socialist. Dictatorship is state power based directly on violence. And in the twentieth century - as in the age of civilisation generally - violence means neither a fist nor a club, but troops. To put "disarmament" in the programme is tantamount to making the general declaration: We are opposed to the use of arms. There is as little Marxism in this as there would be if we were to say: We are opposed to violence!

further going into how it is a joke to think even "soft" bourgeoise govts can work for us, as is the kautskyist thought:
The Kautskyite advocacy of "disarmament", which is addressed to the present governments of the imperialist Great Powers, is the most vulgar opportunism, it is bourgeois pacifism, which actually- in spite of the "good intentions" of the sentimental Kautskyites- serves to distract the workers from the revolutionary struggle. For this advocacy seeks to instill in the workers the idea that the present bourgeois governments of the imperialist powers are not bound to each other by thousands of threads of finance capital and by scores or hundreds of corresponding secret treaties (i.e., predatory, plundering treaties, preparing the way for imperialist war).

And in face of this fact, revolutionary Social-Democrats are urged to "demand" "disarmament"! That is tantamount to complete abandonment of the class-struggle point of view, to renunciation of all thought of revolution. Our slogan must be: arming of the proletariat to defeat, expropriate and disarm the bourgeoisie. These are the only tactics possible for a revolutionary class, tactics that follow logically from, and are dictated by, the whole objective development of capitalist militarism.

again i must point out how ONLY through revolution will there be peace, no hope with the reformists, the call for disarmament is an impotent one.

Comrade Kamo

PS, james if u wish to continue the petty argument plz email me or use msn, cheers.