Greed

[Noah]

If humans aren't naturally greedy, then why do babies cry if babies see something and the guardian doesn't buy it for them? Or when they don't share with their brothers and sisters?

This is a question I got asked, I could answer it but I was wondering whether you guys could answer to my answer could improve because it's not too impressive.

[RedAnarchist]

I dunno, but up until very recntly, there was a big risk of childhood mortality, even in the West, due to lack of healthcare, food etc. You can see the effects of this in families in Victorian times, where it was not common to have families which included 10, 15 even 20 children in order to survive. It may just be a "survival tactic" used by children to ensure that they survive up until a point when they are more likely to live, even though childhood mortality rates are now very low in the West (and sadly way too high in the developing world).

[Ali.Cat]

Babies don't cry when they see something and their guardians don't buy it for them - babies cry for necessity ie. food, sleep, sanitary conditions, love, attention - all natural things that any person needs to have in order to live.

The ability to be greedy, or the ability to share all depend on how a person has been raised. When a person is that young it is their parents that define "the norm" until that person is old enough to even go outside alone - I'm talking babies and toddlers here.

[Whitten]

Babies arent developed human beings with intelligence and free thought and all. They're still relying on instinct, which is based on their animal ancestory of survival of the fittest.

[Janus]

There was a recent study on altruistic characteristics in babies/toddlers. The study showed that they could and did share toys and other stuffs with strangers.

[Noah]

This bring me onto the second question: Look at this quote, It's a post by one of my friends.

I say the reason people want more and more isn't natural and greed is a result of the comepetitivness that exists within society, it's because of the society we lived in ever since we were born.


“Greed” however, is when you invoke the instincts. Example, you could have a car that runs fine, but an ad of a new model with a discount might get you to want to replace your car. Same goes with cloths, food, sex and everything else in this world. The result is a mentality of always wanting more and this has NOTHING to do with competition.

The first sentence of the quote suggests greed is instinctive, I believe it is not can anyone back me up on this?

The second sentence, doesn't really suggest greed (maybe I'm wrong I just think that is a bad example). Maybe the car is a better investment? Maybe the person just always wanted that type of car and got it because it was on discount?

No comment on the fourth sentence.

The mentality mentioned in the fourth sentence, is the mentality of capitalism the society in which we live which means people are products of their environment, right?

Can someone help me reply to his post. Maybe he is correct. The reason I am struggling is because I'm confused because 'human nature' , 'greed' and so on is such a big topic can someone point me to a few internet articles which will help me with my debate?

Thanks

[Janus]

That doesn't really have as much to do with greed as it does with marketing practices and security. People are influenced by market techniques not because they are greedy but because they think that the product will look good or because they think that it may come in handy. Same goes for stocking up since things can be insecure in a capitalist system and even rich people think in the backs of their minds that they may go bankrupt some day.


The reason I am struggling is because I'm confused because 'human nature' , 'greed' and so on is such a big topic
The problem is that there has been no proof for human nature in the capitalist definition of it. The only "human nature" that can be scientifically quantified is, for example, that we see things in patterns.

[Delta]

I believe that people are inherently selfish and greedy. Social institutions and ideas need to be in place to redirect that selfishness to good purposes.

For example, if society values charity, then people will do charity in order to feel good about themselves.

If society values hard work, then people will work hard and feel good about themselves as a result.

If society condemns capitalism and lust for money, then the selfishness of individuals will prevent them from wanting to acquire it, since the gain in money would be vastly offset by the loss in self-respect.

[Janus]

If society values hard work, then people will work hard and feel good about themselves as a result.

If society condemns capitalism and lust for money, then the selfishness of individuals will prevent them from wanting to acquire it, since the gain in money would be vastly offset by the loss in self-respect.
But that would mean that people are not inherently greedy and selfish then.

[which doctor]

The fact is that, humans are inherently greedy.

They desire what brings them comfort.

Unfortunetly, what is is desired now for comfort is a fast car, hot wife, and a big house. These things to not make people happy, they only further alienate people from their true desires.

People should be free, free from the consumption that brings them down.

I will admit I am greedy. Greedy for happiness, true happiness, that can't come in the form of a concrete object.

[RebelDog]

I believe that people are inherently selfish and greedy. Social institutions and ideas need to be in place to redirect that selfishness to good purposes.

Yes they are, you are correct. But people are also inherently kind, sharing, gregarious. This is not a paradox. These are traits that humans have in order to survive and one of the reasons why you and I are here today is because our ancestors had the same traits.
People generaly are inclined to selfishness when they find themselves in a situation where there exists scarcity. If we had no scarcity we would have no greed.

[drain.you]

So we saying that some people are naturally selfish and others aren't? Thats dodgy ground because someone could come along and decide that all naturally selfish people should be exterminated in order for communism to be able to work.

[Delta]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 04:43 PM

If society values hard work, then people will work hard and feel good about themselves as a result.

If society condemns capitalism and lust for money, then the selfishness of individuals will prevent them from wanting to acquire it, since the gain in money would be vastly offset by the loss in self-respect.
But that would mean that people are not inherently greedy and selfish then.
If I personally value when someone else does something nice (because it could very well be me) then I don't see how that's not also selfish behavior. If I'm understanding your objection of course.



These are traits that humans have in order to survive and one of the reasons why you and I are here today is because our ancestors had the same traits

Are we talking about traits like those evolving from monkeys picking bugs out of each other's hair? Because of course they have many selfish reasons for wanting to do that.


If we had no scarcity we would have no greed

Yes, perhaps my initial response wasn't well put. I see no reason why greed should be an innate human attribute, but simply that all actions are taken in one's own self interest, whether that interest is something tangible or simply something that exists in the head.

[Noah]

the way a person is raised and the society they are brought up in definetly affects their abilitly to resist the greed, but the greed is still there nonetheless. disciplined children still desire and lust, its simply human nature...we are born with it and cannot help wanting more than the basic. how we are raised is simply our ability to control ourselves....so humans are born greedy, its a natural feeling

So a few of you agree with this quote?

[Noah]

Anyone?

[Dyst]

What most don't realize is that there is a remarkable difference between desire and greed.

People want things, obviously for pleasure or for the items' usefullness. That is desire.

Greed means wanting more than what you really have any use for whatsoever.

Notice that "desire" also means wanting pleasurable items or items for fun, or whatever. Everyone is born with this. Greed, I think, only affects some people in a few situations.

I don't think this will be any problem post-revolution.