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Samuel
13th July 2006, 03:12
I was reading TIME when I came across this. I don't agree with what it has to say, but it is an interesting point of view to analyze. Personally, I think that the point of a cycle of Israeli and Palestinian fighting, feeding the cycle is valid, but the phrasing of the Tag line is a pointer at the author's true beliefs.


SOURCE: http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0...1209965,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1209965,00.html)

TIME Essay

Charles Krauthammer
"Remember What Happened Here"
Gaza is freed, yet Gaza wages war. That reveals the Palestinians' true agenda"

Jul. 10, 2006
Israel Invades Gaza. That is in response to an attack from Gaza that killed two Israelis and wounded another, who was kidnapped and brought back to Gaza ...which, in turn, was in response to Israel's targeted killing of terrorist leaders in Gaza...which, in turn, was in response to the indiscriminate shelling of Israeli towns by rockets launched from Gaza.

Of all the conflicts in the world, the one that seems the most tediously and hopelessly endless is the Arab-Israeli dispute, which has been going on in much the same way, it seems, for 60 years. Just about every story you'll see will characterize Israel's invasion of Gaza as a continuation of the cycle of violence.

Cycles are circular. They have no end. They have no beginning. That is why, as tempting as that figure of speech is to use, in this case it is false. It is as false as calling American attacks on Taliban remnants in Afghanistan part of a cycle of violence between the U.S. and al-Qaeda or, as Osama bin Laden would have it, between Islam and the Crusaders going back to 1099. Every party has its grievances--even Hitler had his list when he invaded Poland in 1939--but every conflict has its origin.

What is so remarkable about the current wave of violence in Gaza is that the event at the origin of the "cycle" is not at all historical, but very contemporary. The event is not buried in the mists of history. It occurred less than one year ago. Before the eyes of the whole world, Israel left Gaza. Every Jew, every soldier, every military installation, every remnant of Israeli occupation was uprooted and taken away.

How do the Palestinians respond? What have they done with Gaza, the first Palestinian territory in history to be independent, something neither the Ottomans nor the British nor the Egyptians nor the Jordanians, all of whom ruled Palestinians before the Israelis, ever permitted? On the very day of Israel's final pullout, the Palestinians began firing rockets out of Gaza into Israeli towns on the other side of the border. And remember: those are attacks not on settlers but on civilians in Israel proper, the pre-1967 Israel that the international community recognizes as legitimately part of sovereign Israel, a member state of the U.N. A thousand rockets have fallen since.

For what possible reason? Before the withdrawal, attacks across the border could have been rationalized with the usual Palestinian mantra of occupation, settlements and so on. But what can one say after the withdrawal?

The logic for those continued attacks is to be found in the so-called phase plan adopted in 1974 by the Palestine National Council in Cairo. Realizing that they would never be able to destroy Israel in one fell swoop, the Palestinians adopted a graduated plan to wipe out Israel. First, accept any territory given to them in any part of historic Palestine. Then, use that sanctuary to wage war until Israel is destroyed.

So in 2005 the Palestinians are given Gaza, free of any Jews. Do they begin building the state they say they want, constructing schools and roads and hospitals? No. They launch rockets at civilians and dig a 300-yard tunnel under the border to attack Israeli soldiers and bring back a hostage.

And this time the terrorism is carried out not by some shadowy group that the Palestinian leader can disavow, however disingenuously. This is Hamas in action--the group that was recently elected to lead the Palestinians. At least there is now truth in advertising: a Palestinian government openly committed to terrorism and to the destruction of a member state of the U.N. openly uses terrorism to carry on its war.

That is no cycle. That is an arrow. That is action with a purpose. The action began 59 years ago when the U.N. voted to solve the Palestine conundrum then ruled by Britain by creating a Jewish state and a Palestinian state side by side. The Jews accepted the compromise; the Palestinians rejected it and joined five outside Arab countries in a war to destroy the Jewish state and take all the territory for themselves.

They failed, and Israel survived. That remains, in the Palestinian view, Israel's original sin, the foundational crime for the cycle: Israel's survival. That's the reason for the rockets, for the tunneling, for the kidnapping--and for Israel's current response.

If that history is too ancient, consider the history of the past 12 months. Gaza is free of occupation, yet Gaza wages war. Why? Because this war is not about occupation, but about Israel's very existence. The so-called cycle will continue until the arrow is abandoned and the Palestinians accept a compromise--or until the arrow finds its mark and Israel dies.

theraven
13th July 2006, 03:30
I have to say I, and the facts, agree with a lot of this article. I wonder How infatida et al will respond.

Samuel
13th July 2006, 03:39
but do you agree with the idea that all Palestinians have a "agenda"? because the article definitly points to that the Palestinians are more guilty than the Israelis.

theraven
13th July 2006, 07:26
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 12:40 AM
but do you agree with the idea that all Palestinians have a "agenda"? because the article definitly points to that the Palestinians are more guilty than the Israelis.
I am sure not all, but their leadership? of course.

Janus
13th July 2006, 09:43
Gaza is freed
Gaza won't be free as long as Israel keeps on invading. :angry:

theraven
13th July 2006, 19:16
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 06:44 AM

Gaza is freed
Gaza won't be free as long as Israel keeps on invading. :angry:
well if they hadn't kidnapped israeli soliders.....

bcbm
13th July 2006, 21:08
Originally posted by theraven+Jul 13 2006, 10:17 AM--> (theraven @ Jul 13 2006, 10:17 AM)
[email protected] 13 2006, 06:44 AM

Gaza is freed
Gaza won't be free as long as Israel keeps on invading. :angry:
well if they hadn't kidnapped israeli soliders..... [/b]
Did Israel release all prisoners who came from Gaza after it was "freed?" And of course, this article tries to make Gaza and the West Bank into seperate groups of Palestinians, or something, since it ignores the fact that the Gaza withdrawl was followed by an increasing invasion of settlers and land grabbing in the West Bank.

theraven
13th July 2006, 22:46
Originally posted by black banner black gun+Jul 13 2006, 06:09 PM--> (black banner black gun @ Jul 13 2006, 06:09 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 10:17 AM

[email protected] 13 2006, 06:44 AM

Gaza is freed
Gaza won't be free as long as Israel keeps on invading. :angry:
well if they hadn't kidnapped israeli soliders.....
Did Israel release all prisoners who came from Gaza after it was "freed?" And of course, this article tries to make Gaza and the West Bank into seperate groups of Palestinians, or something, since it ignores the fact that the Gaza withdrawl was followed by an increasing invasion of settlers and land grabbing in the West Bank. [/b]
no of course not, those prisonesr usuall y commited some crime and its not like gaza had the government to handle them

Janus
13th July 2006, 23:12
no of course not, those prisonesr usuall y commited some crime
A lot of the prisoners are political prisoners that Israel arrests in raids. So there main crime is being at the wrong place at the wrong time or belonging to an organization that Israel hates.

theraven
13th July 2006, 23:33
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 08:13 PM

no of course not, those prisonesr usuall y commited some crime
A lot of the prisoners are political prisoners that Israel arrests in raids. So there main crime is being at the wrong place at the wrong time or belonging to an organization that Israel hates.
or belonging to an orginzaion that wants to destroy israel

bcbm
14th July 2006, 00:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 01:47 PM
no of course not, those prisonesr usuall y commited some crime and its not like gaza had the government to handle them
And I would venture most IDF soldiers on the front lines have committed some crime. Nobody gets on Israel's case for kidnapping Palestinians, so I don't see what the big deal is when the Palestinians start taking prisoners of their own.


or belonging to an orginzaion that wants to destroy israel

:rolleyes: Israel should really start cracking down on its own right-wing, if this were criteria for getting jailed.

theraven
14th July 2006, 00:44
And I would venture most IDF soldiers on the front lines have committed some crime. Nobody gets on Israel's case for kidnapping Palestinians, so I don't see what the big deal is when the Palestinians start taking prisoners of their own.

exceptt their prisonesr are random rather then targeted....


Israel should really start cracking down on its own right-wing, if this were criteria for getting jailed.

the israeli right wing wnats to destory israel? :unsure:

bcbm
14th July 2006, 00:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 03:45 PM
exceptt their prisonesr are random rather then targeted....
Uh... right. :rolleyes: Israel probably has many more "random" prisoners than the Palestinians.


the israeli right wing wnats to destory israel? :unsure:

Yes. And remove all Arabs from Palestine, and much of the surrounding countries, in order to form a theocratic monarchy.

theraven
14th July 2006, 01:04
Yes. And remove all Arabs from Palestine, and much of the surrounding countries, in order to form a theocratic monarchy.

theocratic monarchy? that doesn't quite sound right to me....im kinda skeptical...

Samuel
14th July 2006, 01:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 05:05 PM

Yes. And remove all Arabs from Palestine, and much of the surrounding countries, in order to form a theocratic monarchy.

theocratic monarchy? that doesn't quite sound right to me....im kinda skeptical...
Well, its not a Monarchy, but its definitely a theocracy. I don't have a problem with Israel responding to attacks on its borders; any other nation would do the same. I have a problem with how it defines its borders and how it responds. Military action is acceptable, but the Israeli government does nothing to reduce impact on innocent civilians..

EDIT: Has anyone noticed that the Goodle Ads are all for Jewish dating services?

theraven
14th July 2006, 02:04
its got a lot of religous influence sure but it doesn't exclude other religoins..

and the ad's are about what your talking about..

bcbm
14th July 2006, 11:17
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 04:05 PM

Yes. And remove all Arabs from Palestine, and much of the surrounding countries, in order to form a theocratic monarchy.

theocratic monarchy? that doesn't quite sound right to me....im kinda skeptical...
There's a good PBS documentary called, I think, "The Enemy Within" or something like that. I could be way off on the title. Look up the Kahanists.


Has anyone noticed that the Goodle Ads are all for Jewish dating services?

Oh trust me, I noticed... :blush:

theraven
14th July 2006, 13:49
There's a good PBS documentary called, I think, "The Enemy Within" or something like that. I could be way off on the title. Look up the Kahanists.

1) khanists are an illegeal party in israel. their leader was exiled.

2) they are just nutjobs, i don't think the advocate monarchy though...