How Can Cuba Improve?

[R_P_A_S]

Obviously Cuba is not socialist paradise. I think we all agree here with some irregularities by the Fidel Castro regime if you wanna call it that. I for one would like those people to be more free. I would like for them to have a better life style and more opportunities. BUT at the same time I would like them to keep their soverignty and everything that makes Cuba unique and beautiful. I don't want the U.S.A in there saying they're gonna Free people and set up a democratic goverment. like they try to do everywhere they go. I think Cuba should deside what happens next.

My question to some of you here who support Cuba and Fidel and whatever it stands for. Do you honestly believe is ok that those people aren't entirely free? I mean Fidel is good to some point/ But he is not model President. I praise him for staying in control for this long despite the embargo and many other countless threaths coming from the U.S. in the last 50 so years. But at the same time I don't know if he is really doing everything possible for this so call freedom of his people.

I will stress again. I don't want to see the U.S. rolling up in there like they done to all of us and the middle east. But what's the better alternative and answer for this people?

[R_P_A_S]

No opinions?

[R_P_A_S]

seriously!?!?

[TC]

Cuba's system of government and economy is already the most democratic and efficent on earth...it can improve simply by expanding the economy and thereby improving the overall standard of living on the island.


Do you honestly believe is ok that those people aren't entirely free?

They are entirely free, there is utterly no political repression in Cuba. The tiny opposition meets openly and distruptes their tiny opposition newspapers without fear of political repression. Cuban police have never once attacked demonstrators and no one has been imprisoned on political charges, something that you can't say for any western country, not even any other socialist country.

The only "freedom" that Cubans don't have is the "freedom" to economically exploit people, which is the "freedom" that the west and capitalism values more than anything else.


But he is not model President.

I think he is, i can't think of anything i'd have done differently if i was in his position, and thats not something i think i could say of any other socialist leader including Hugo Chavez, Lenin, Khrushchev, etc.


But what's the better alternative and answer for this people?

There is no "better alternative" for Cuba, rather the Cuban system is the better alternative for the rest of the world!

[R_P_A_S]

well the their Per Capital Income ain't that high at all. you'd expect them to have a higher standard of living. so who's to blame for that?

[Janus]

you'd expect them to have a higher standard of living
Well, there has been a major embargo on them by the US. And the US has prevented ships that have docked in Cuba from entering US ports so...

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 08:01 PM

you'd expect them to have a higher standard of living
Well, there has been a major embargo on them by the US. And the US has prevented ships that have docked in Cuba from entering US ports so...
what does the embargo consist of?

[Janus]

Pretty much everything. It cuts off all trade with Cuba including medical supplies, etc.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 08:05 PM
Pretty much everything. It cuts off all trade with Cuba including medical supplies, etc.
just from the U.S. or from who? But Cuba has trading partners. does the U.S. punish those who trade with them? or how does it work?

[R_P_A_S]

what's with the "COMMUNIST STATES" references? everywhere I read they say this. Cuba turned into a communist state, like Vietnam, and the USSR. whats with this? I though Communism was a stateless society. why do information sources call it STATES? and how come no one corrects them.

By the way I just said this because I was reading about the Embargo

[Janus]

just from the U.S
Yeah, mainly the US.


does the U.S. punish those who trade with them? or how does it work?
Well, the US prevents any ships that have docked in Cuba from docking in US ports.


what's with the "COMMUNIST STATES" references?
Exactly. It's a paradox. Sadly, few people know what communism is and just calls them that either because they have an agenda(to discredit communism) or because they're ignorant.

Also, there is a difference between a Communist state (notice capitalization) and a communist state. The first one mainly means that the Communist Party dominates the country.

[R_P_A_S]

I was also reading that the United Nations votes every year on lifting the embargo. but that the U.S. Isreal, Panau and the Marshall Island always vote against it.

PANAU & THE MARSHALL ISLAND? WTF????????? who or what are they? and how does their 20 people population votes count against the other 170 some countries?

[Janus]

Well, the US has never really been one to pay attention to the UN.

[HinduKush]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 09:34 AM
Cuba's system of government and economy is already the most democratic and efficent on earth...it can improve simply by expanding the economy and thereby improving the overall standard of living on the island.


Do you honestly believe is ok that those people aren't entirely free?

They are entirely free, there is utterly no political repression in Cuba. The tiny opposition meets openly and distruptes their tiny opposition newspapers without fear of political repression. Cuban police have never once attacked demonstrators and no one has been imprisoned on political charges, something that you can't say for any western country, not even any other socialist country.

The only "freedom" that Cubans don't have is the "freedom" to economically exploit people, which is the "freedom" that the west and capitalism values more than anything else.


But he is not model President.

I think he is, i can't think of anything i'd have done differently if i was in his position, and thats not something i think i could say of any other socialist leader including Hugo Chavez, Lenin, Khrushchev, etc.


But what's the better alternative and answer for this people?

There is no "better alternative" for Cuba, rather the Cuban system is the better alternative for the rest of the world!
if there so free than why do so many cubans hate fidel

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by HinduKush+Jul 18 2006, 04:51 PM--> (HinduKush @ Jul 18 2006, 04:51 PM)
[email protected] 13 2006, 09:34 AM
Cuba's system of government and economy is already the most democratic and efficent on earth...it can improve simply by expanding the economy and thereby improving the overall standard of living on the island.


Do you honestly believe is ok that those people aren't entirely free?

They are entirely free, there is utterly no political repression in Cuba. The tiny opposition meets openly and distruptes their tiny opposition newspapers without fear of political repression. Cuban police have never once attacked demonstrators and no one has been imprisoned on political charges, something that you can't say for any western country, not even any other socialist country.

The only "freedom" that Cubans don't have is the "freedom" to economically exploit people, which is the "freedom" that the west and capitalism values more than anything else.


But he is not model President.

I think he is, i can't think of anything i'd have done differently if i was in his position, and thats not something i think i could say of any other socialist leader including Hugo Chavez, Lenin, Khrushchev, etc.


But what's the better alternative and answer for this people?

There is no "better alternative" for Cuba, rather the Cuban system is the better alternative for the rest of the world!
if there so free than why do so many cubans hate fidel [/b]


why so many americans hate BUSH?
why so many mexicans hate FOX?
why so many british hate BLAIR?

is not about being FREE. those 3 above claim that their countries are free. is a matter of opinion. trust me ONLY a few rich white cubans from Miami hate fidel. Im willing to bet that over 80% of his people in Cuba love him.

[Janus]

if there so free than why do so many cubans hate fidel
So many? Where are you getting those figures from?

[HinduKush]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2006, 08:35 PM

if there so free than why do so many cubans hate fidel
So many? Where are you getting those figures from?
My mom has a fiend who currentley lives in Miami but is a native Cuban, she also has a license that permits her to visit Cuba for buisness purposes, when i asked whats its like and whether or not the people are happy with fidel castro, she said no its not that people like him its that people fear him( Very Stalin like ). but i dont know how true this is being ive never been to Cuba, and i agree with R_P_A_S in a way its a very double standard , if theres a ghetto in the united states its because the people have made it that way, if theres a ghetto in Cuba its because of the communist society, when the U.S. talks about cuba they act like theres nothing wrong with themselves.

[Janus]

I'm sure some people are upset with him which is why they flee but it's definitely better than Batista's reign.


if theres a ghetto in Cuba its because of the communist society
Cuba is not communist though it could be considered socialist.

[Eleutherios]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 08:29 PM
I was also reading that the United Nations votes every year on lifting the embargo. but that the U.S. Isreal, Panau and the Marshall Island always vote against it.

PANAU & THE MARSHALL ISLAND? WTF????????? who or what are they? and how does their 20 people population votes count against the other 170 some countries?
Palau (with an L) and the Marshall Islands were formerly US territories until they became independent in 1994 and 1986, respectively. Were you really completely unaware that two countries broke off from the US in the past 20 years?

The reason why Palau and the Marshall Islands vote for US-backed policies is that they are essentially American colonies which have gained a certain degree of local autonomy on paper but are still dependent on the US economically and in international affairs.

[Samuel]

I've thought about this alot (fidel's getting up there on the birthday chart), and I think that a Communist Task Force of sorts, comprised of 20-30 well trained men, would execute the officials in the Cuban Government and immediaetly hold a hearing of any Cuban citizens who will put forth their opinions on future government. With all attendees having equal voice, each idea would have to attain, say, 1/5 of the votes to make it to the planning stage, were 15 people would work the idea into a working system. Each system would be published in a booklet, which would be distributed to each family in Cuba. After about a month, a referendum would be held, where whichever system that got 2/3 majority would become the selected system. If there is not a 2/3 majority, then a runoff of the top 5 ideas would be held, and if there was no agreement, the top 2. The Cubans would choose their government. That government would have to be worked into being by the Task Force, who would assist in running it in its early stages. The Task Force would phase out its involvement over, say 3 months, at which point the Cubans would have their

Q/C?

[CoexisT]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 09:34 AM
They are entirely free, there is utterly no political repression in Cuba. The tiny opposition meets openly and distruptes their tiny opposition newspapers without fear of political repression.
uhhhh.... hrmmm.. (http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=554)

[Karl Marx's Camel]

How Can Cuba Improve?

* Strip down the bureaucracy and lessen the power of heads of state owned companies

* Make sure transactions etc. does not go into uncontrolled hands

* Stop corruption among doctors

* Make healthcare free again

* Recall as many doctors and healthworkers as possible, until the cuban population has enough doctors

* Stop handing over resources that the cuban population badly need

* Work on improving the hospitals,

* Work on renovating houses, buildings in general and especially buildings with historical value, etc. etc.

* Increase the production of new houses


* Stop the harrasment of rastafarians, anarchists, dissidents etc.

* Give the media more room to criticize and ask questions not previously tolerated or allowed.

* Establish rule of law

* Establish elections that the people find valid, and give people increased power and control over the state

[Karl Marx's Camel]

It cuts off all trade with Cuba including medical supplies

Cuba can buy medical supplies and food from the United States with cash.


you'd expect them to have a higher standard of living

Special period.



if there so free than why do so many cubans hate fidel


I think most Cubans have a more balanced picture of the regime than people outside Cuba (that include both rightwingers and pro-regime communists).

[CoexisT]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 03:59 PM
* Give the media more room to criticize and ask questions not previously tolerated or allowed.
QFT

[Janus]

Cuba can buy medical supplies and food from the United States with cash.
Cuba has declined that, seeing it as only a half-measure. However, I remember that agreements on food purchases are being made.

[Samuel]

regardless, Cuba was/is the best lasting communist state. Short term instances, such as Guatemala, may have accomplished the Communist ideal better, but they obviously did something wrong if they died out so quickly. Cuba's big misake was aligning with the USSR over China, and they pay for it daily. Their reliance on Soviet industry stunted their own growth, and the Soviet monetary aid fostered a poor economic system.

Still, Fidel's early government was sucussful; the people were happy. However, after the "honeymoon" ended, so did Cuba as a great communist state.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Cuba has declined that, seeing it as only a half-measure

Just to be a 100 percent sure we understand each other..

The regime refuse to buy medicine from the U.S.? :huh:


regardless, Cuba was/is the best lasting communist state.

Would you define "communist state"?

[Janus]

The regime refuse to buy medicine from the U.S.?
Don't quote me on that but I'm pretty sure that they declined the US's invitation although they have begun buying food.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I've read before that Cuba will have to buy medicine many times more expensive than if they do not buy it from the U.S.


Cuba is short of medical supplies...

Maybe accepting the deal would have solved the medical shortage in Cuba, seeing as the medicine would be much cheaper?


Would paying in cash be very hard?

[Janus]

Cuba is short of medical supplies...
Yes but they can get help from other places such as from UN agencies.

I was doing some research and I found this
http://www.cubasolidarity.net/Kirkpatrick-lancet.pdf

It seems that although technically medicine is exempt from the embargo, the US government tried to undermine these purchases as much as possible.

[Janus]

Also, I found this

Economic Sanctions and Agricultural Exports (http://www.cnie.org/nle/crsreports/briefingbooks/Agriculture/Economic%20Sanctions%20and%20Agricultural%20Export s.htm)

It seems that Cuba did reject most of the economic relaxations under Clinton except for the relaxation on food due to a hurricane there.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19, 2006 07:16 pm
Also, I found this

Economic Sanctions and Agricultural Exports (http://www.cnie.org/nle/crsreports/briefingbooks/Agriculture/Economic%20Sanctions%20and%20Agricultural%20Export s.htm)

It seems that Cuba did reject most of the economic relaxations under Clinton except for the relaxation on food due to a hurricane there.
ok so are they now just being capricious?
I made this thread last year. I still would like this Island to improve. with out capitalism. is there no hope?

[VukBZ2005]

Originally posted by R_P_A_S+March 16, 2007 04:24 am--> (R_P_A_S @ March 16, 2007 04:24 am)
[email protected] 19, 2006 07:16 pm
Also, I found this

Economic Sanctions and Agricultural Exports (http://www.cnie.org/nle/crsreports/briefingbooks/Agriculture/Economic%20Sanctions%20and%20Agricultural%20Export s.htm)

It seems that Cuba did reject most of the economic relaxations under Clinton except for the relaxation on food due to a hurricane there.
ok so are they now just being capricious?
I made this thread last year. I still would like this Island to improve. with out capitalism. is there no hope? [/b]
The only hope there is for Cuba to improve without full-blown Capitalism is to establish a new policy of outward-looking import-substitution industrialization, with raw materials and industrial machinery coming from willing Latin American and Asian trading partners and Cuba re-exporting those raw materials as manufactured products to other markets.

And also, Cuba's economy is growing, from the 5.5% level in 1995 to 9.5%/12.5% in 2006. The Cuban economic ministry is projecting a 10% growth in GDP, which translates to 8-9% of growth by non-Cuban GDP estimates.

[BobKKKindle$]

Cuba is currently witnessing a growth in income and wealth inequality, primarily due to the introduction of the tourist system and the legalisation of the dollar as a means of exchange.

Those working in the tourist industry and recieving remittances from Cubans working abroad have access to dollars and so are able to command greater purchasing power. In order to safeguard the Socialist project, the circulation of the dollar should be eliminated, and the country's economic resources should be used to provide goods and services that are required by Cuba.


import-substitution industrialization

This is a policy where the government introduces strong barriers to the movement of commodities in order to protect domestic enterprises from competition and encourage self-reliance. What you describe is reliance on imports from other countries, even if these countries are supportive of the Cuban model and regime.

[Raúl Duke]

Are the workplaces (all, none, some, many, etc) in Cuba runned democratically? (like Co-Ops, etc; Workplace Democracy)

[Djehuti]

They need to get rid of stalinism and beaurocracy, it does not fit well with socialism nor the cuban mentality. Cubans in general love socialism but they are a not a people that functions well with a stiff political system. I do not believe that a fall of the Castro-regime (hopefully not due to a bourgeoisie state-coup) will lead to the end of all those progressive reforms that have been made since Castro threw the oppressors in the sea, rather the opposite.