Why Do You Hate God And Religion?

[Anti-Red]

I am just wondering why you guys hate God and religion? I mean really, why? Also, what is the point of life if there is no afterlife? Really, why help people. The only thing that keeps me from going out and ravaging the masses is my fear of hell. If I were rich and atheist I would just go out and destroy everything in ultra-capitalism that you guys all hate. I am not rich and I am not an atheist, but were I to become rich and remain a Christian, then I would not do that. Really, religion stops me from doing wrong. If I did not believe in God, I would be an awful person. The reason most of you guys don't believe in God is probably because you are immoral yourselves. Is it that you want to live off welfare with no work? Is that it?

[More Fire for the People]

Wow. You must be a really sad person if it takes the threat of hell for you to be nice to everyone else.

[Eleutherios]

I am just wondering why you guys hate God and religion?
I do not hate any gods; it is impossible to hate fictional characters. As for religion, why should we not oppose belief systems based on authority and faith and attempt to replace them with logic, science and rationality? Not that people shouldn't have the right to believe in whatever crazy things they want to, but we shouldn't let their claims go unchallenged, especially when they hurt people (read up on Scientology or Christian Science sometime).

Also, what is the point of life if there is no afterlife? Really, why help people.
Because we have evolved this little thing called empathy. Being the social creatures that we are, we need to care about others or we would have gone extinct long ago. It's wired into our brains.

The only thing that keeps me from going out and ravaging the masses is my fear of hell.
Really? Well, isn't it odd that there isn't one shred of evidence that atheists act less morally than theists? We do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, not because we think some magical sky wizard has the masochistic kink of torturing people for all eternity in response to a finite amount of evil deeds. I don't do good out of some selfish desire to live in Happy Fun Land for all eternity instead of Evil Scary Fire Land. I do good because I actually care about people.

The reason most of you guys don't believe in God is probably because you are immoral yourselves.
No. There is nothing to suggest that atheists are more likely to go out and kill, rape, steal, etc. The reason we don't believe in any gods is simple: there is as much evidence for gods as there is for leprechauns.

Is it that you want to live off welfare with no work? Is that it?
What is the point of this comment? Why do you think we don't want to work? Just because we think there is a better way to structure the economy? Because we don't believe in ancient fairy tales?

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 10 2006, 07:27 PM
I am just wondering why you guys hate God and religion? I mean really, why?
There's an abundance of reasons. Firsly from a scientific point of view, the hypothesis that a magical sky wizard created everything, and using nothing but the (il)logic of faith 'clearley exists' despite absolutely no proof (and much reason to doubt) leads one to believe God does not exit. In fact the Judeo-Christian god is a paradox, it's impossible and cannot exist, as are many other sky wisards. The ones that can't be disproved using logic, have absolutely no basis anyway, and so I need only point to the teapot analogy. Or ask you simply why you don't believe in father chirstmas or the tooth faity anymore.

Also, we see religion as a tool of the opressors. Used to 'dope' people into a state of non thinking called faith. For centuaries people believed witches existed, that the world was flat, that the earth was the center of teh universe and that they must obey their divine leaders, if they questioned these things they would go to hell. Or literally be killed or punished.


Also, what is the point of life if there is no afterlife?

Who said there was a point?


Really, religion stops me from doing wrong. If I did not believe in God, I would be an awful person. The reason most of you guys don't believe in God is probably because you are immoral yourselves. Is it that you want to live off welfare with no work? Is that it?

"Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have"

-Penn Jillette

[razboz]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 10 2006, 07:27 PM
I am just wondering why you guys hate God and religion? I mean really, why? Also, what is the point of life if there is no afterlife? Really, why help people. The only thing that keeps me from going out and ravaging the masses is my fear of hell. If I were rich and atheist I would just go out and destroy everything in ultra-capitalism that you guys all hate. I am not rich and I am not an atheist, but were I to become rich and remain a Christian, then I would not do that. Really, religion stops me from doing wrong. If I did not believe in God, I would be an awful person. The reason most of you guys don't believe in God is probably because you are immoral yourselves. Is it that you want to live off welfare with no work? Is that it?
Im sorry mate but you make a shit christian. I mean did God not say somewhere in the books that somone wrote int the 3rd century that you really had to mean it for you to be saved? You hypocritical, two faced sinner you!

FOrtunately you can always go buy your salvation in Rome... :lol:

[Shadowlegion]

I don't care about religion. Sure, I could oppress it and totally secularize society, but people like rebellion so I think we'd probably be seeing record numbers angstsy teens as christians. I think the best solution is just to let it fade away into time, it's slowly doing so now.

In short, I don't subscribe to religion but I don't care who does. I think it's a system of control much like anything else, I would rather be controlled by something benevolent that I know exists rather than something I cannot even fathom exists. I might actually sympathize with someone optimistic enough to believe all their efforts and labor mean they'll be in heaven or some equally delusional dream. I really think it's up to a person to choose what they believe.

I think most religions have benevolent properties that make them nice, but they are ultimately overshadowed by the innate exclusion and discrimination of people for rather aesthetic and pointless reasons.

[LSD]

I am just wondering why you guys hate God and religion? I mean really, why?

Because it obfuscates the truth, limits social progress, and stultifies societal values. Religion, as an inherently regressive social force, is a fundamentally harmful institution and therefore must be opposed.


Also, what is the point of life if there is no afterlife?

I have a better question: what is the point of life if there is an afterlife?

I mean, think about it. If there really is an "eternal paradise" out there and all one needs to do to get in is die, why not get yourself there now? Why not kill yourself or martyr yourself or do whatever is required to get out of this very hard, very temporal world and into "heaven"?

You see, I don't think that anyone actually buys into this "heaven" bullshit. Not really.

Oh sure, it's a nice little psychological game people play -- "mommy's in heaven now", "I'll see you on the other side", etc... -- but when it comes right down to it, they know that there's no magical "afterlife" where all are reunited and none suffer.

That kind of mystical utopianism just doesn't jive with modern sophisticated worldviews and while many self-declared "religious" individuals will try and graft "heaven" onto their conception of the world, it never really trully fits into place.

You may "believe" in an "afterlife" in the sense that you have some vague fear of "punishment" and some equally vague hope for "reward", but you don't really believe that after you die, you'll "ascend" to some mystical "kingdom" of "love and peace".

'Cause if you did, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we? ;)


Really, why help people.

Why not?


The only thing that keeps me from going out and ravaging the masses is my fear of hell.

Then you are a monster.

I suppose it isn't wholly surprising that a committed capitalist is a psychopath, but it's still always upsetting to see.


Really, religion stops me from doing wrong. If I did not believe in God, I would be an awful person.

OK, so you're pomoting "religion as social control". Well, fine; that's been done before and, yeah, religious "values" tend to enforce themselves.

But so what?

Religion may be a means of controlling society, but it's by no means the only one. On the contrary, there are numerous mechanisms by which benneficial acts can be encouraged and detrimental ones detered, most of them far more effective and utilitarian than religion.

The issue isn't whether or not religion can stop people from doing "bad things"; it's is it the best way of stopping them, and the answer to that is clearly no. "Utilizing" religion as "law enforcement" has time and time again been demonstrated to be an ultimately destructive approach.


The reason most of you guys don't believe in God is probably because you are immoral yourselves.

Actually, I'd say that if anything, the opposite is probably true. Those who, like yourself, need the threat of "hell" to keep them in line are fundamentally immoral, whereas those who do not are fundamentally moral.

That is, if one acts decently even though they are well aware that there's no "supreme being" judging them, it demonstrates that their decency is genuineb. On the other hand, those who only act "good" because they're afraid of "punishment" if do otherwise, are, despite any "good works", acting entirely selfishly.

Atheists are "better people".

[TC]

I hate reactionary religious beliefs not because they're religious but because they're reactionary, in terms of god and non-reactionary political beliefs, i feel about them the same way i feel about father christmas/santa claus/easter bunny etc and people who believe in them...silly and a sign of extreme immatureity but not inherently worthy of 'hate', more like pity.

[overthrowthebeast726]

Religion breeds hate, intolerance, and ignorance. And come on, an "afterlife"? Is it that you're so scared that after you die, the only thing that will happen is that you'll be eaten by worms, and not go to "heaven"?

[tambourine_man]

why you guys hate God and religion?

boring, stupid, antithetical to the development and expression of authentic personality, life?

(that is, as you said yourself),


The only thing that keeps me from going out and ravaging the masses is my fear of hell.

Really, religion stops me from doing wrong. If I did not believe in God, I would be an awful person.


-


The reason most of you guys don't believe in God is probably because you are immoral yourselves.

maybe i don't care that to someone (anyone) else my thoughts and dreams and actions are "morally wrong" and "reprehensible"? maybe that's because my morality really is mine, affected by wholly subjective perceptions and judgements?
an archaic set of divine instructions and code of behavior is just one particular example of a comprehensive external law that, in the scope of more modern systems of constraint and negation, is pretty irrelevent today, yet happens to be your personal fixation....


Also, what is the point of life if there is no afterlife?


to be happy while you're here? pleasure is both an end and a means...


Is it that you want to live off welfare with no work? Is that it?

this is pretty irrelevent to the discussion, but sure i don't want to work. who does? i don't want to be forced, directly or indirectly, to do anything that i don't want to do (and vice versa). welfare of course implies the existence of a state and an organized, authoritarian social body which is contradictory to communism. if you want me to explain more, i can, but since it's off topic i will stop.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 10 2006, 02:27 PM


I am just wondering why you guys hate God and religion?

I've never been a fan of hate, really. I find it to be a destructive emotion that creates little good. One Love, y'know?

As for the concept of god, I find it rather illogical. The idea of omniscient, omniverent, and omnipotent entity/group of entities crontrolling all that exists, physical and spiritual, along with my afterlife (which makes little sense in itself; everythjing dies, eventualy. The "eternal life concept is merely a masque to hide behind so that people could live their lives happily, which rarely happened), makes no sense to me. A coincidednce is just that: a coincidence, and nothing more. A miricle is a false concept, and I won't be blinded by it.


I mean really, why?

Why not? (read my previous passage)


Also, what is the point of life if there is no afterlife?

To die knowing that you fulfiled your goals imn life, did something important, touched the heats of many, hurt few, and spread love where you went. That's more than enough purpose for me. ;)


Really, why help people.

Excuse me? :huh:


The only thing that keeps me from going out and ravaging the masses is my fear of hell.

That's sad. :(


If I were rich and atheist I would just go out and destroy everything in ultra-capitalism that you guys all hate.

Well, there goes the trust factor. :rolleyes:


I am not rich and I am not an atheist, but were I to become rich and remain a Christian, then I would not do that.

So you do right because you're afraid that you will be punished to an eternity in hell if you don't?


Really, religion stops me from doing wrong.

And knowing I only have one life to live does the same thing for me. :)


If I did not believe in God, I would be an awful person.

That&#39;s a pretty unsturdy foundation you&#39;re building your house on, there. <_<


The reason most of you guys don&#39;t believe in God is probably because you are immoral yourselves.

Not true. I consider myslf moral, and I am a Proggressive, nay, a Revolutionary&#33; Their are plenty of wrong-hearted god-bleievers, believe me.


Is it that you want to live off welfare with no work? Is that it?

Nope. I want everybody to have clean food, a warm shelter, and healthcare, and a happy life. That&#39;s all I want.

[Goatse]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 10 2006, 07:27 PM
I am just wondering why you guys hate God and religion? I mean really, why? Also, what is the point of life if there is no afterlife? Really, why help people. The only thing that keeps me from going out and ravaging the masses is my fear of hell. If I were rich and atheist I would just go out and destroy everything in ultra-capitalism that you guys all hate. I am not rich and I am not an atheist, but were I to become rich and remain a Christian, then I would not do that. Really, religion stops me from doing wrong. If I did not believe in God, I would be an awful person. The reason most of you guys don&#39;t believe in God is probably because you are immoral yourselves. Is it that you want to live off welfare with no work? Is that it?

I am just wondering why you guys hate God and religion? I mean really, why?

Because it&#39;s silly and harmful to society.


Also, what is the point of life if there is no afterlife?

We&#39;re sorry you can&#39;t accept the facts, but there is no afterlife. Maybe life has no meaning?


Really, why help people.

Err... what has this got to do with fairytales of God and the afterlife?


The only thing that keeps me from going out and ravaging the masses is my fear of hell.

Then you&#39;re a fucked up illogical moron.


If I were rich and atheist I would just go out and destroy everything in ultra-capitalism that you guys all hate. I am not an atheist, but were I to become rich and remain a Christian, then I would not do that.

Good for you?


Really, religion stops me from doing wrong

Sane people don&#39;t need to be told ghost stories to stop us murdering people.


If I did not believe in God, I would be an awful person.

:)


The reason most of you guys don&#39;t believe in God is probably because you are immoral yourselves.

You cannot argue logically thus you have no testicles and live with your mother.


Is it that you want to live off welfare with no work? Is that it?

What the hell? Go fuck yourself.

[Anti-Red]

Seriously, you people do not get it, do you. I pray that you all come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ some time, because when you do not have that, you are only hurting yourselves. I am not some Christian conservative wacko who wants to make Christianity the state religion or anything, and I have no problem with you following other religions, or no religion at all for that matter, I am just saying, you are only hurting yourself. I do not suscribe to Sunday school theology, which means I do not hold to the strict belief that, "If you don&#39;t believe in Jesus, you automatically go to hell," instead I believe that there is no GUARANTEE of being saved unless you believe in Jesus. I think there is a good chance that good non-Christians like Gandhi are in heaven and bad Christians like the popes during the Inquisition or any politicians today that use Christianity to gain political power will be in hell, but there is no guarantee. For rejecting the ultra-simplistic Sunday school theology, most of Christian friends call me a liberal or a freethinker, which when it comes to social and religious things, I am, or at least I thought I was until I encountered the extremes of society, which is the people on this forum. I actually thought I was one of the least religious Christians out there, and most other Christians say I am a bad Christian for it. I live in a very conservative Christian community and I get that all the time. I hate to say it, but I think that despite your painting me as an intolerant reactionary bastard, I am more tolerant of others than you are. I know an agnostic, but I have never ripped him apart for disagreeing with my beliefs like some of the more conservative people I know have. I hate to say it, but you people do to religious people what the Christian Right does to non-religious people, you tear them down and call them names just for not adhering to your ultra-orthodox beliefs, or disbelief for that matter. Let me just say, that if you guys had Jesus in your life, maybe then you could start forgiving instead of preaching violence and hate against capitalists. You accuse the fascists, and rightfully so, but if your ideas ever want to gain momentum, then you need to look in the mirror and do some soul searching and realize that it does not matter who preaches what type of hate, because hate is hate, whether it is against people of other religions, or capitalists.

[More Fire for the People]

Seriously, you people do not get it, do you. I pray that you all come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ some time, because when you do not have that,
I am acutally an ex-Christian but I still carry the emotional scars.

[Anti-Red]

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 11 2006, 01:53 AM

Seriously, you people do not get it, do you. I pray that you all come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ some time, because when you do not have that,
I am acutally an ex-Christian but I still carry the emotional scars.
What Christians do does not neccessarily reflect on true Christianity and the teachings of Christ himself. The message of Christ does not change, the message of Christians does, which is unfortunate. I think instead of always listening to Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, or if you are Catholic, the Pope, we should just listen to Jesus.

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 11 2006, 01:53 AM

Seriously, you people do not get it, do you. I pray that you all come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ some time, because when you do not have that,
I am acutally an ex-Christian but I still carry the emotional scars.
Ditto. Everything about my personality I don&#39;t like seems to be related to my catholic upbringing-for example I am far too polite for my own good.

As for God and religion, I&#39;m pretty indifferent. I don&#39;t see any sufficient evidence to suggest there is some sort of "creator" but then I can&#39;t claim to KNOW there isn&#39;t, even though the logic that there is a God seems to be internally flawed-everything needs a creator, so there must be a God. But God doesn&#39;t need a creator, cos he&#39;s special. Sorry, I don&#39;t buy it.

Either way worshipping anything seems pretty pointless-why bother? Being taught to worship is a means of teaching people submissive values that makes them easier to rule, and I don&#39;t see the point in following a religion over forging your own individualistic mystical views, if you choose to think about mysticism at all. It seems to create pointless divisions in society.

Do you know what is a nicer feeling than taking the easy way out and surrenduring your humanity to a higher power? To embrace yourself as a human. Not to delude yourself. To be open and honest to yourself and others about everything. I find it a tremendously liberating feeling.

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;Red+Jul 10 2006, 08:08 PM--> (Anti&#045;Red &#064; Jul 10 2006, 08:08 PM)
Hopscotch [email protected] 11 2006, 01:53 AM

Seriously, you people do not get it, do you. I pray that you all come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ some time, because when you do not have that,
I am acutally an ex-Christian but I still carry the emotional scars.
What Christians do does not neccessarily reflect on true Christianity and the teachings of Christ himself. The message of Christ does not change, the message of Christians does, which is unfortunate. I think instead of always listening to Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, or if you are Catholic, the Pope, we should just listen to Jesus. [/b]
I did. I was a Christian existential humanist which focuses upon Christ in our lifes with minimal need for churches [though I went to church].

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 01:46 AM
I hate to say it, but you people do to religious people what the Christian Right does to non-religious people, you tear them down and call them names just for not adhering to your ultra-orthodox beliefs, or disbelief for that matter. Let me just say, that if you guys had Jesus in your life, maybe then you could start forgiving instead of preaching violence and hate against capitalists. You accuse the fascists, and rightfully so, but if your ideas ever want to gain momentum, then you need to look in the mirror and do some soul searching and realize that it does not matter who preaches what type of hate, because hate is hate, whether it is against people of other religions, or capitalists.
I don&#39;t hate anyone, because I believe the evil of someone comes down to material conditions or genetics so even though I get angry with people I can never truly hate them. For most commies, it is the same thing. There is a difference between hating someone for who they are and hating a material condition in society.

And I don&#39;t have any beliefs, I form opinions based on what I know and I alter my opinions if someone points out a logical fallacy or if some new evidence to disprove my opinions comes up.

You say we accuse fascists "and rightly so", but we aren&#39;t allowed to accuse cappies? If we are right in our accusations of capitalists, then surely it would be a good thing to encourage revolt against them? Would you say hating fascism is the same as hating people from other religions so we shouldn&#39;t fight it?

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 02:08 AM
What Christians do does not neccessarily reflect on true Christianity and the teachings of Christ himself. The message of Christ does not change, the message of Christians does, which is unfortunate. I think instead of always listening to Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, or if you are Catholic, the Pope, we should just listen to Jesus.
What&#39;s wrong with my own opinions, why do I need an instruction manual for moral judgements? As if something as abstract as morality existed anyway. Even if I believed Jesus was the son of God and believed everything in the New Testament I would still never call myself a Christian. I would only say I share their views.

[Anti-Red]

Actually, as to capitalism. My view of capitalism is more or less the Adam Smith, classical liberal view of small proprietorships and agrarianism, not of Wal-Mart and Halliburton. I have no problem with you criticizing Wal-Mart and Halliburton, but the basic ideals of Adam Smith, I do have a problem with you criticizing, because that is true freedom.

[Zero]

Originally posted by "Anti&#045;Red"+--> ("Anti&#045;Red")I am just wondering why you guys hate God and religion? I mean really, why?[/b]


"Wiki on Westboro Baptist Church"
The group carries out daily picketing in Topeka (purportedly six per day with fifteen on Sunday, "Lord willing", per the index page of its main website) and travels nationally to picket the funerals of gay and lesbian victims of murder, gay-bashing or death related to AIDS, as well as other events related or appearing to be related to gay people. They have been known to protest outside theaters in Topeka, under the premise that live theatre (Especially musical productions) is a haven of homosexuality.They have also shown interest in picketing productions of the play The Laramie Project. Recently, they have shifted their interest to picketing the funerals of soldiers killed in the Iraq War, believing this to be more of "God&#39;s judgment" on America. The FAQ section of the website states that, in their view, soldiers didn&#39;t join the military out of a sense of patriotism, but because they are "lazy, incompetent idiots" unable to find work elsewhere. Some states, including Kansas, have passed laws prohibiting picketing at funerals.

One of Westboro&#39;s followers estimated that the church spends &#036;250,000 a year travelling around the world to picket. In the 1990s the church won a series of lawsuits against the City of Topeka and Shawnee County for efforts taken to prevent or hinder WBC picketing. As a result, the church was awarded approximately &#036;200,000 in attorney&#39;s fees and costs associated with the litigation. Otherwise, all of the church&#39;s money comes from the combined income of its congregants and money won in lawsuits against their opponents.

Phelps Sr., his supporters and members of his church attend the aforementioned gatherings, as well as other gay-related events, with signs bearing anti-gay slogans. Phelps Sr. has characterized the AIDS Memorial Quilt as "100,000 living fags slobberin&#39; around 45,000 dead fags" and declared Elizabeth Taylor, a fundraiser for AIDS research, to be a "world-famous filthy Jew whore." Other regular anti-gay slogans of Westboro include "Homosexuality = Death," "Fags Die, God Laughs," "Matthew Shepard Rots in Hell," "AIDS: Kills Fags Dead" and "Ellen DeGeneres is a Lesbian Slut." (The latter was carried at an "Equality Rocks" rock concert and fundraiser; at the event DeGeneres commented that she wasn&#39;t offended so much by the slogan as the fact that they had drawn pock marks all over her face on the poster.)

Other slogans are:

* Fag Santa (carried at Christmas time)
* Thank God for 9-11
* Thank God for the Tsunami
* Thank God for Katrina
* God Hates You
* Menninger Therapy (complete with two stick figures mounting)
* Thank God for AIDS
* Fag Flag (with an American flag)
* Repent or Perish
* Dyke Nuns and Fag Priests (carried outside Catholic churches)
* Dyke Sows Wed Here (complete with pictures of pigs in wedding dresses covered with feces; carried at lesbian weddings)
* Brides of Satan (referring to lesbian weddings)
* Fags Doom Nations (Image)
* Fags Are Worthy of Death (Image)
* Fags Eat Feces = Scat
* Thank God for Dead Soldiers
* Don&#39;t Worship the Dead
* Thank God for IEDs [improvised explosive devices]
* Fag Troops
* God Hates Your Tears

When Kevin Oldham, a gay musician, died of AIDS in 1993, Phelps Sr. sent a photo of Kevin to his parents. The photo contained the caption: "Kevin Oldham: Dead Fag".

The group came into the national spotlight in 1998, when they were featured on CNN for picketing the funeral of Matthew Shepard, a young gay man from Wyoming who was beaten to death by two young males. Though Phelps Sr. claimed that Shepard&#39;s murder was unjust (and the Westboro&#39;s website states that Shepard&#39;s murderers face the same fate as Shepard - eternity in hell unless they repent), his overt activism against Shepard&#39;s sexual orientation, regardless of the mourning of Shepard&#39;s family and friends (he called Shepard&#39;s mother, Judy, a whore and a "mother from Hell" during the memorial service and told her she&#39;d "soon be joining Matthew"), to some had the appearance of a tacit endorsement for Shepard&#39;s murder.

On Westboro&#39;s website, Phelps Sr. maintains a "Perpetual Gospel Memorial" to Shepard. There is a similar memorial to lesbian dog-attack victim Diane Whipple. Some direct quotes/images from the Shepard page:

* A photograph of Matthew Shepard&#39;s face with animated flames dancing across it. When the cursor is moved across his face, viewers with a sound card will hear screams and a high-pitched voice shrieking "For God&#39;s sake, listen to Phelps&#33;"
* A counter which displays how many days Matthew Shepard has "Been in Hell".
* "WBC does not support the murder of Matthew Shepard: &#39;thou shalt not kill.&#39; Unless his killers repent, they will receive the same sentence that Matthew Shepard received -- eternal fire. However, the truth about Matthew Shepard needs to be known. He lived a Satanic lifestyle. He got himself killed trolling for anonymous homosexual sex in a bar at midnight".

On January 25, 2004, Phelps picketed five churches, three Catholic and two Episcopalian, and the Federal Courthouse for allegedly legalizing same sex marriages in Iowa. Two women married in Vermont had their marriage mistakenly annulled by a federal judge in Sioux City, Iowa. The ruling was quickly reversed. The community response was to hold several counter-protests and hold a large multi-faith service in the town&#39;s city auditorium.

The group has also picketed Billy Graham revivals, alleging that the conservative evangelist will burn in Hell for failing to propagate the "God Hates Fags" doctrine. In October 2004, the group protested Graham&#39;s mass meetings, calling the 85 year-old preacher a "Hell-bound false prophet".

In a 1994 interview, WBC members Timothy and Jonathan Phelps (sons of Phelps Sr.) admitted to beating their wives and children as a means of discipline and "keeping them in line". (Phelps Sr. suggested this early in his ministry - see the Fred Phelps entry for details - and his estranged sons state that they and their mother were often victims of domestic violence). However, in press releases, WBC referred to Topeka mayor James McClinton as a "wife-beating tyrant". McClinton, who is black, was portrayed in the press release as a gorilla in a suit with a swastika armband.

In July 2005, the Westboro Baptist Church declared its intention to picket the memorial service of Cpl. Carrie French in Boise, Idaho. French, aged 19 years old, was killed on June 5 in the city of Kirkuk, Iraq, where she served as an ammunition specialist with the 116th Brigade Combat Team&#39;s 145th Support Battalion. Her death is seen by the church as divine punishment of the United States. Phelps Sr. was quoted as saying, "Our attitude toward what&#39;s happening with the war is [that] the Lord is punishing this evil nation for abandoning all moral imperatives that are worth a dime."

The Westboro Baptist Church declared its intention to picket the funerals of other soldiers as well and did so in August 2005. A group from the church protested at the funeral of Spc. Edward Myers, a soldier from St. Joseph, Missouri, who died in Iraq. Shirley Phelps-Roper (one of Phelps Sr.&#39;s daughters and main author of the WBC Epics and Hate Letters) told a television reporter, "Who would serve a nation that is Godless and has flipped off, defiantly defied, defiantly flipped off, the Lord their God?" She then reiterated her belief that Myers was burning in Hell.

In spite of the group&#39;s insistence that it always follows through on its announced pickets, there have been innumerable instances in which no member of the church has ever arrived at an announced picket. Instead, in many instances fake &#39;epics&#39; have been posted on the website. Those who write in to challenge WBC&#39;s claims that they were present at an event when they were not, are accused of blasphemy and told that they will go to Hell for daring to question WBC.

This is your brain...

this is your brain on religion. :rolleyes:

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 02:22 AM
Actually, as to capitalism. My view of capitalism is more or less the Adam Smith, classical liberal view of small proprietorships and agrarianism, not of Wal-Mart and Halliburton. I have no problem with you criticizing Wal-Mart and Halliburton, but the basic ideals of Adam Smith, I do have a problem with you criticizing, because that is true freedom.
actually, i dont think most communists would be "communist" if it was realistically possible for everyone to own a small buisness.

unfortunately that is impossible buddy.

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 02:22 AM
Actually, as to capitalism. My view of capitalism is more or less the Adam Smith, classical liberal view of small proprietorships and agrarianism, not of Wal-Mart and Halliburton. I have no problem with you criticizing Wal-Mart and Halliburton, but the basic ideals of Adam Smith, I do have a problem with you criticizing, because that is true freedom.
But it inevitably develops into what we have now; and no it&#39;s not true freedom, because there is a lot of compulsion.

It&#39;s akin to saying you&#39;re a Leninist because Leninism was good until it became an autocratic self-perpetuating dictatorship.

[Anti-Red]

That is such a stupid argument that it makes me wanna puke.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 02:58 AM
That is such a stupid argument that it makes me wanna puke.
libertarian populism the true ideology............

[Anti-Red]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 03:00 AM
libertarian populism the true ideology............
As of now I am the only person who reffered to himself as such that I know of, but I hope to expand it.

[Morag]

People responding to you calling them immoral and lazy makes you want to puke? Better buck up, then, cause if you start off every conversation with passive-aggressive insults, your gonna be sick a lot on this forum.

- Even if god exists, don&#39;t you think he&#39;s smart enough to see through the whole "I didn&#39;t do bad things because I didn&#39;t want to go to hell&#33;" Won&#39;t he see how wrong you really are and toss you down to hell? I mean, if we mere mortals can see how disturbing that is, I would assume an all-powerful God could too.

-It&#39;s nice that you like Adam Smith. Really. Unfortunately, the world has moved passed his ideas in the last 260 years. They are still relevant for criticism and analysis, but Smith&#39;s theories aren&#39;t coming back.

-What does not having a job and being immoral have in common? As far as I know, the bible says not to judge others, and that all people are equal. It also says that the community has the responsibility to ensure that children are fed and healthy. Oddly, nothing was mentioned about full-time employment.

-Why can&#39;t life be about living happily and being a good person? It&#39;s like camping- you don&#39;t leave a campsite just as you found it, you leave it cleaner and nicer so the next people can enjoy it more. Why&#39;s that bad?

-I&#39;m pleased that your liberal and don&#39;t take it all too literally. Hopefully, you&#39;ll read some lit from the Communist perspective, and either a) learn to look at things from a different POV and become a more interesting person for it or b) change your mind. Just don&#39;t judge people for thinking differently.

[encephalon]

JESUS ATE MY SANDWICH.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 02:58 AM
That is such a stupid argument that it makes me wanna puke.
You have failed to actually respond to any rational argument we have presented, instead doing the (un)itellectual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and humming, thus highlighting the irrationality of your baseless faith.

Feel free to reply to my original post. Until then I consider you as much of an intellectual opponent as someone claiming Unicorns exists.

[Goatse]

I thought the bible did mention unicorns? Along with dragons...

Seriously.

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 10 2006, 07:27 PM
I mean really, why? Also, what is the point of life if there is no afterlife? Really, why help people. The only thing that keeps me from going out and ravaging the masses is my fear of hell. If I were rich and atheist I would just go out and destroy everything in ultra-capitalism that you guys all hate. I am not rich and I am not an atheist, but were I to become rich and remain a Christian, then I would not do that. Really, religion stops me from doing wrong. If I did not believe in God, I would be an awful person. The reason most of you guys don&#39;t believe in God is probably because you are immoral yourselves. Is it that you want to live off welfare with no work? Is that it?

I am just wondering why you guys hate God and religion?

well, the fact that those things are non-sensical may have something to do with it. and the fact that people spend their entire lives wasting towards the non-sensical is even worse.

religion = social control.

it&#39;s also not very pretty to watch all of my bangladeshi and indian friends, scared shit-less by their oppressive parents and oppressive religion.

really, every time one of my friends is called a "whore" by her parents for having a boyfriend, is every time i want to stick a knife through her father&#39;s throat.

but, obviously, not everyone has a problem with that. some people would like to think that religion has nothing to do with society and society&#39;s progress, as if it has no consequences for people.


Really, why help people.

there is no reason to help people. i do just to do it.. some, on the other hand, do it because the bible tells &#39;em so. of course, that&#39;s not a reason either.. it&#39;s a prejudice, just like my prejudice.


The only thing that keeps me from going out and ravaging the masses is my fear of hell.

yeah? so you&#39;d rape your mother if it weren&#39;t for hell?

well, i wonder what that says about your character. and your religion.


If I did not believe in God, I would be an awful person.

lol, these are the kinds of quotes that anti-religion activists would use to defame christians. you may be an awful person "if it weren&#39;t for god," but let&#39;s compare your "awfulness" with another kind..

if it weren&#39;t for united states laws, for example, a person might become a rapist. he might spend all day dreaming about rape and torture and murder, yet doesn&#39;t do it because he&#39;s scared of the law. so.. is he a "good" person because he doesn&#39;t rape, or is he a coward because he doesn&#39;t rape?

with the way that YOU set up the argument, it seems as if "goodness" is not even the question.. cowardice is, at bottom, what you&#39;re referring to, and is the only thing you&#39;re interested in.

you are, then, defying your true maniacal, aggressive nature through cowardice, and not through goodness.

hmph&#33;

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 02:22 AM
Actually, as to capitalism. My view of capitalism is more or less the Adam Smith, classical liberal view of small proprietorships and agrarianism, not of Wal-Mart and Halliburton. I have no problem with you criticizing Wal-Mart and Halliburton, but the basic ideals of Adam Smith, I do have a problem with you criticizing, because that is true freedom.
show me an un-abridged (un-abridged&#33;) text of adam smith that suggests capitalism, and not something entirely different.

[Anti-Red]

It does not matter what Adam Smith thought, his ideology was about freedom, yours is about control. You say religion = social control, well so does all the social engineering you need to create your dream society.

[Si Pinto]

Really, why help people

and your a Christian???

Is this some strange usage of the word &#39;Christian&#39; that I haven&#39;t previously been aware of?

or are you just flaming again?


The only thing that keeps me from going out and ravaging the masses is my fear of hell.

Meaning it is your faith in christianity which keeps you from being a rapist?

But your faith in christianity doesn&#39;t apply when it comes to helping people?

hmmm

Don&#39;t you think you&#39;ll go to hell for not helping people you could?

or are you just flaming again?


I am not rich

Compared to most of the people who need your help you are.

Ever heard the christian tale of Jesus dressing up as the poor beggar?

The rich men gave Jesus a few coins out of the millions they had, the poor person also gave Jesus a few coins, but they were the only ones the poor person possessed, and Jesus (and presumably his dad as well) were very happy with the poor person.

Jesus preached compassion, don&#39;t you as a christian follow the words of your lord?

Then you are most certainly going to hell.


The reason most of you guys don&#39;t believe in God is probably because you are immoral yourselves. Is it that you want to live off welfare with no work? Is that it?

No, I don&#39;t believe in God because he doesn&#39;t exist, I&#39;d be daft to believe in something that doesn&#39;t exist wouldn&#39;t I? I mean you&#39;d have to be fucking mental to believe in something that didn&#39;t exist wouldn&#39;t you?

You talk about morality?

You are a self confessed would-be rapist.
You don&#39;t believe in compassion (even though your God tells you to&#33;).

OR ARE YOU JUST FLAMING AGAIN?

TTFN

[Anti-Red]

I am still better than you kooks. I guarantee that if your retarded society ever came you would all just be fighting over power and killing everyone who disagrees.

[RevMARKSman]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 01:17 PM
I am still better than you kooks. I guarantee that if your retarded society ever came you would all just be fighting over power and killing everyone who disagrees.
Woohoo, ad hominem&#33;

[Janus]

his ideology was about freedom
That may have been his original intentions yet in capitalism, one man&#39;s freedom usually ends up ruining another man&#39;s.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 06:17 PM
I am still better than you kooks. I guarantee that if your retarded society ever came you would all just be fighting over power and killing everyone who disagrees.
Wow. I feel dwarfed in the prescence of this genius. Methinks he&#39;s lost the argument and is desperatley clinging to his tired old dogmatic lines. I&#39;ll try one:
"I am still better than you, you stupid arse candle. I can see that your backward, crtinious and expoloitative society is handing the power to the most corrupt and starving anyone who doesn&#39;t work for it."
Wow that was fun, and simplisitc.

[Si Pinto]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 07:52 PM
Wow. I feel dwarfed in the prescence of this genius. Methinks he&#39;s lost the argument and is desperatley clinging to his tired old dogmatic lines. I&#39;ll try one:
"I am still better than you, you stupid arse candle. I can see that your backward, crtinious and expoloitative society is handing the power to the most corrupt and starving anyone who doesn&#39;t work for it."
Wow that was fun, and simplisitc.
Methinks your right my dear Jazzratt&#33; ;)

I&#39;ll try one as well. :mellow:

ahem...(clears throat) :)

I&#39;m better than you, my pet dog is better than you, the fleas on my pet dog are better than you and the flies on the shit of my pet dog are better than you.

There are amoeba on Saturn that could formulate a discussion better than you.

You are a soon to be extinct species cappie&#33;&#33;

Spend your money while you can&#33;&#33; :ph34r:
-----------------

Your right Jazzy, that was fun&#33;&#33;&#33; ^_^

[Zingu]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 02:58 AM
That is such a stupid argument that it makes me wanna puke.
Read some economics, its the "small shop burgeoisie" that developed into what it is today.

You can&#39;t go "backwards", thats pure idealism.

[Zingu]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 03:45 PM
It does not matter what Adam Smith thought, his ideology was about freedom, yours is about control.

"Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is, in reality, instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have property against those who have none at all."

~ Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations


=D



You say religion = social control, well so does all the social engineering you need to create your dream society.

Nah, most of us are pretty pissed off proletarians who are fed up with the shit that is given to us. We have this crazy idea that we can run things for our own benefit and work for ourselves without some fucking boss at the top stealing our labor all the time. :)

[Goatse]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 06:17 PM
I am still better than you kooks. I guarantee that if your retarded society ever came you would all just be fighting over power and killing everyone who disagrees.
Your mother has hairy legs&#33;

Thus religion is wrong.

[Anti-Red]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 09:44 PM
Your mother has hairy legs&#33;

Thus religion is wrong.

Didn&#39;t get the point there, but I suppose you guys need to resort to such measures to defend the indefensible.

[ack]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 10 2006, 03:27 PM
I am just wondering why you guys hate God and religion? I mean really, why? Also, what is the point of life if there is no afterlife? Really, why help people. The only thing that keeps me from going out and ravaging the masses is my fear of hell. If I were rich and atheist I would just go out and destroy everything in ultra-capitalism that you guys all hate. I am not rich and I am not an atheist, but were I to become rich and remain a Christian, then I would not do that. Really, religion stops me from doing wrong. If I did not believe in God, I would be an awful person. The reason most of you guys don&#39;t believe in God is probably because you are immoral yourselves. Is it that you want to live off welfare with no work? Is that it?
If the only thing holding you back from murder is religion-imposed morals, then you&#39;re going to Hell, because God knows.

[Anti-Red]

Okay, so I used strong words. I suppose I believe atheists can be moral. I am just saying that it is harder if you have no faith.

[ack]

Wow. Look at how much those other guys wrote. Look at how much I wrote. Look who got this "Restricted member" to debunk his own argument. Me. One sentence is all it takes, comrades.
To the people of RevLeft:
Get to the point faster, please. I rarely read those essays you write.

[Anti-Red]

I have always believed it, I just chose the wrong words. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[ack]

I wasn&#39;t disagreeing with that. I was using it more as a statement about all the novelists on RevLeft.

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 03:45 PM
It does not matter what Adam Smith thought,

indeed? a subject of the discussion, invoked by name, is irrelevant to the discussion?


his ideology was about freedom, yours is about control. You say religion = social control, well so does all the social engineering you need to create your dream society.

the problem is as a "libertarian," your definition of freedom, ipso facto, purely theoretical. you are a metaphysician, period, and while metaphysics may be cute in literature or even in philosophy, it&#39;s no good in the real world.

it&#39;s nice the way free-market enthusiasts discuss "freedom" and such, since, if "libertarians" are serious about their stuff, and mean everything they say, they&#39;d bring their points to a very logical conclusion:

http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.ph...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1083547923&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

regarding social control: now, unless you believe people are "naturally" born reading ludwig von mises, every piece of reinforcement -- even if it&#39;s good, ethical reinforcement -- is "social engineering," to use your phrase.

so, maybe i should have been more clear on the point.. social conditioning, by itself, isn&#39;t bad at all. we are conditioned to refuse rape and murder, among other things. no problem with that (unless you&#39;re in the marines), i hope.

we are, however, interested in types, in consequences, and in motivations. and not every conditioning is positive.

as for adam smith.. great guy. would have been a socialist today, too. his constant preoccupation with class conflict, with special interests in relation to the public, with monopoly, among other classic marxist themes, is obvious.. problem was, communism wasn&#39;t around then, nor were the implications of "free market capitalism" obvious, either. adam smith wanted an equal society with "perfect liberty", where people would, whenever they thought appropriate, be able to float to whatever job, without any risks or complications or fears for their own survival/hunger -- where, in effect, different employments are "perfectly equal or tending to equality."

what smith argues is this: free-market capitalism is good, as long as it creates equality, as long as there are no special interests that undercut the public -- and, in contemporary times, this might also be extended to the third world.. that there are no, in effect, interests that undercut the third-world. after all, when he&#39;s discussing the negative effects of local mercantalism on ordinary people, it&#39;s hard to say that his sympathies are only with the very local people of, say, england.. isn&#39;t, for example, one of his most famous ethical principles (in "the theory of moral sentiments") that of an hypothetical earthquake in china, and people&#39;s cold and dispicable indifference to the suffering that it causes?

and so on.

[Goatse]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;Red+Jul 12 2006, 02:02 AM--> (Anti-Red @ Jul 12 2006, 02:02 AM)
[email protected] 11 2006, 09:44 PM
Your mother has hairy legs&#33;

Thus religion is wrong.

Didn&#39;t get the point there, but I suppose you guys need to resort to such measures to defend the indefensible. [/b]
I was imitating you, tool.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 11 2006, 06:17 PM
I am still better than you kooks. I guarantee that if your retarded society ever came you would all just be fighting over power and killing everyone who disagrees.
not really, but the more you post, the more you expose yourself to be nothing more that a pseudo-fascist with an infantile understanding of mechanics of Direct Democracy and anarchism.

You really are a sad motherfucker. As far as I can tell the original replies blew your superstitions right out of the water, and instead of replying to them you just ignore them. Learn to engage in a proper debate you fucking idiot.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

is a fundamentally harmful institution and therefore must be opposed.

If it&#39;s so harmful, then why is it still around? Why do so many people belong to a church?

Are people just stupid and ignorant? But I thought you like people and that you care about them?

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 12 2006, 12:54 PM

is a fundamentally harmful institution and therefore must be opposed.

If it&#39;s so harmful, then why is it still around? Why do so many people belong to a church?

Capitalism is harmful, it&#39;s still around.


Are people just stupid and ignorant? But I thought you like people and that you care about them? Don&#39;t see why anyone being stupid or ignorant would stop me caring about them or liking them.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Don&#39;t see why anyone being stupid or ignorant would stop me caring about them or liking them.

When are you going to contribute to the Kenneth Lay Foundation? Are you going to go to a Pro-life rally and invite them all over for tea?


Capitalism is harmful, it&#39;s still around.

You&#39;re obviously in the minority there.

And if it is so harmful, then why do so many support it? Are people masochists? Indoctrinated? Stupid and ignorant?

Why do so many people buy into the crap that you communists deem "harmful"?

[Si Pinto]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 12 2006, 12:54 PM
Are people just stupid and ignorant?
Some names do spring-to-mind yes :rolleyes: .

Some of them also seem to think they&#39;re being funny and terribly clever in the way they phrase their questions when to everyone else they just appear sad. <_<

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 12 2006, 01:10 PM

Don&#39;t see why anyone being stupid or ignorant would stop me caring about them or liking them.

When are you going to contribute to the Kenneth Lay Foundation? Are you going to go to a Pro-life rally and invite them all over for tea?


What the fuck is the Kenneth Lay Foundation? I&#39;d certianly turn up to a pro-life rally (in a sort of counter-protest capacity.), as for inviting them over for tea; only if I knew them. Does this mean I don&#39;t care about them? No, it means I find their views backward and repulsive.



Capitalism is harmful, it&#39;s still around.

You&#39;re obviously in the minority there.

And if it is so harmful, then why do so many support it? Are people masochists? Indoctrinated? Stupid and ignorant?

Why do so many people buy into the crap that you communists deem "harmful"? I think I&#39;m taking a fairly majority position, considering how it&#39;s the majority that gets shat upon by capitalism. Most people would agree that putting profit above human wellbeing is by definition harmful to humans (not to profit margins.).

People support it because they&#39;re comfortably well off, rich or have been fed the lie that they could become one of those two things and swallowed it.

Because it is in the interest of the ruling class, thus from day one we are told that it is the right thing.Sometimes we&#39;re given the facsimilie of an alternative but we are never offered any substantial change and what is not offered to us we don&#39;t often think about.

[Hate Is Art]

And if it is so harmful, then why do so many support it? Are people masochists? Indoctrinated? Stupid and ignorant?

Manufacture of Consent, we are made to believe that their values are our own, that they represent our interests, what is good for them is good for us. I don&#39;t think you can really say that there isn&#39;t any harm in capitilism either, unless you are stupid and ignorant.

[Eleutherios]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 12 2006, 01:10 PM
You&#39;re obviously in the minority there.

And if it is so harmful, then why do so many support it? Are people masochists? Indoctrinated? Stupid and ignorant?

Why do so many people buy into the crap that you communists deem "harmful"?
Just because an opinion is held by a minority does not mean that opinion is wrong. In the past, there have been societies in which the majority of the populace regarded as just things like slavery, the divine right of kings, fascism and feudalism. Just because most people thought such systems were justified, harmless, and non-exploitative didn&#39;t make it so.

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 12 2006, 12:54 PM
If it&#39;s so harmful, then why is it still around? Why do so many people belong to a church?

If it&#39;s so harmful, then why is it still around?

if rape is so harmful, then why is it still around?


Why do so many people belong to a church?

why do so many people rape?

[LSD]

If it&#39;s so harmful, then why is it still around?

Why did chattle slavery persist for thousands of years? Because it bennefits those in power.

I trust that you&#39;re smart enough to recognize that the historical promulgation of an instutition does not justify that institution. It&#39;s kinda Historiography 101.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Because it bennefits those in power.

How does a church in some town where mostly old and young people congregate and go to sing hymns, benefit "those" in power?

Who&#39;s in power?



why do so many people rape?

Last time I checked, attending a church wasn&#39;t against the law.


I trust that you&#39;re smart enough to recognize that the historical promulgation of an instutition does not justify that institution.

How is going to a church to sing a few hymns and shake a few hands, harmful to anybody or anything?


Just because an opinion is held by a minority does not mean that opinion is wrong.

Except for any opinions that you don&#39;t approve of? Like Nazism or Stalinism. In my opinion, those are wrong opinions.


what is good for them is good for us.

I don&#39;t see a mass pile of bodies anywhere, or any mass uprisings, so maybe "they" are right?


People support it because they&#39;re comfortably well off, rich or have been fed the lie that they could become one of those two things and swallowed it.

So people are stupid and ignorant but you are the enlightened one?



I think I&#39;m taking a fairly majority position, considering how it&#39;s the majority that gets shat upon by capitalism. Most people would agree that putting profit above human wellbeing is by definition harmful to humans (not to profit margins.).

Without profits, there wouldn&#39;t be any jobs for people to work at.

[RevMARKSman]

How does a church in some town where mostly old and young people congregate and go to sing hymns, benefit "those" in power?

Who&#39;s in power?

Have you ever heard of the "donation box" or the "collection"?

Not only that, but churches continue to endorse politicians. Churches benefit politicians in this way, as most will recommend giving money to a certain cause or candidate based on that particular denomination&#39;s doctrine.


Last time I checked, attending a church wasn&#39;t against the law.

Last time I checked, that&#39;s irrelevant. People go to church even though it&#39;s inherently oppressive. People rape even though it&#39;s inherently oppressive. Legality is irrelevant here.


How is going to a church to sing a few hymns and shake a few hands, harmful to anybody or anything?

How is homophobia, abandonment of logic, hate, intolerance, failure to plan for the future because "the world is going to end soon", holy war, racism, sexism, regression, belief that all those different will go to hell, and then teaching your kids the same thing harmful to anybody or anything? :rolleyes:


I don&#39;t see a mass pile of bodies anywhere, or any mass uprisings, so maybe "they" are right?

Somehow, I do.

People executed for being gay
Spanish Inquisition
Crusades
witch hunts
holy wars
Islamic sectarian violence in the Middle East
Murder of doctors that perform abortions



So people are stupid and ignorant but you are the enlightened one?
When did anyone claim to know everything? We just claim that religion is false and oppressive, and we have evidence to support that claim, unlike you.

Without profits, there wouldn&#39;t be any jobs for people to work at.

Since when do little pieces of paper with no material value that represent debts have to do with actual needs or actual work?

[Eleutherios]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 13 2006, 03:54 PM

Because it bennefits those in power.

How does a church in some town where mostly old and young people congregate and go to sing hymns, benefit "those" in power?

Who&#39;s in power?
According to Christianity, God is. God, the invisible, undetectable, totalitarian dictator of the entire universe. The hymns are sung in praise of this thing, teaching children that they have to obey every one of his rules or they will be burnt in God&#39;s big underground gas chamber for all eternity. Once you teach children to accept this cosmic tyranny, it is a very simple matter to get them to accept earthly tyrannies. As Mikhail Bakunin so eloquently put it:


God being everything, the real world and man are nothing. God being truth, justice, goodness, beauty, power, and life, man is falsehood, iniquity, evil, ugliness, impotence, and death. God being master, man is the slave. Incapable of finding justice, truth, and eternal life by his own effort, he can attain them only through a divine revelation. But whoever says revelation says revealers, messiahs, prophets, priests, and legislators inspired by God himself; and these, once recognized as the representatives of divinity on earth, as the holy instructors of humanity, chosen by God himself to direct it in the path of salvation, necessarily exercise absolute power. All men owe them passive and unlimited obedience; for against the divine reason there is no human reason, and against the justice of God no terrestrial justice holds. Slaves of God, men must also be slaves of Church and State, in so far as the State is consecrated by the Church.



Just because an opinion is held by a minority does not mean that opinion is wrong.

Except for any opinions that you don&#39;t approve of? Like Nazism or Stalinism. In my opinion, those are wrong opinions.
Indeed those are wrong opinions, but not because of the number of people who hold them. They are wrong because they have big gaping logical holes. You were trying to say that capitalism is right because most people agree with it, and that communism is wrong because very few people do. You seem to be implying that the truthfulness of an idea is determined by the number of people that believe in it.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/bandwagn.html

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 13 2006, 03:54 PM

Because it bennefits those in power.

How does a church in some town where mostly old and young people congregate and go to sing hymns, benefit "those" in power?

Who&#39;s in power?
1) That church still perpetuates an essentially exploitative system. Aside from that it&#39;s cruel to dangle the benevolance of an invisible sky wizard in front of these people as it stops them realising their exploited postion.

2)Even you can&#39;t be ignorant enough not to know who&#39;s in power.




I trust that you&#39;re smart enough to recognize that the historical promulgation of an instutition does not justify that institution.

How is going to a church to sing a few hymns and shake a few hands, harmful to anybody or anything? In itself it isn&#39;t? But church isn&#39;t just a place where you sing songs and shake hands, it&#39;s an institution which is the perfect way of keeping workers from emancipating themselves because they have the promise of going to happy land when they die and therefore don&#39;t worry about their lives as much.



Just because an opinion is held by a minority does not mean that opinion is wrong.

Except for any opinions that you don&#39;t approve of? Like Nazism or Stalinism. In my opinion, those are wrong opinions. This proves nothing.



what is good for them is good for us.

I don&#39;t see a mass pile of bodies anywhere, or any mass uprisings, so maybe "they" are right? I think Monica has satisfactoraly owned you on this one, no real need for me to rub it in.



People support it because they&#39;re comfortably well off, rich or have been fed the lie that they could become one of those two things and swallowed it.

So people are stupid and ignorant but you are the enlightened one? Sorry when did I say I was the single enlightened one? Start again fucknut.



I think I&#39;m taking a fairly majority position, considering how it&#39;s the majority that gets shat upon by capitalism. Most people would agree that putting profit above human wellbeing is by definition harmful to humans (not to profit margins.).

Without profits, there wouldn&#39;t be any jobs for people to work at. Bollocks. Are you seriously suggesting that if none of our labour was stolen from us we&#39;d do nothing. Fuck off.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Have you ever heard of the "donation box" or the "collection"?

Are they being forced to donate to the collection box?

Do the churches use that money to burn witches?


Not only that, but churches continue to endorse politicians. Churches benefit politicians in this way, as most will recommend giving money to a certain cause or candidate based on that particular denomination&#39;s doctrine.

Teachers and labor unions endorse politicians as well. It&#39;s ok for them to engage in that sort of activity but but a minority of religious people and their churches can&#39;t?


According to Christianity, God is. God, the invisible, undetectable, totalitarian dictator of the entire universe. The hymns are sung in praise of this thing, teaching children that they have to obey every one of his rules or they will be burnt in God&#39;s big underground gas chamber for all eternity. Once you teach children to accept this cosmic tyranny, it is a very simple matter to get them to accept earthly tyrannies. As Mikhail Bakunin so eloquently put it:

According to certain sects of Christianity, particularly fundamentalism.


Somehow, I do.

You missed my point, by a long shot. I said if the system is so bad and people are being screwed by it, then there would be massive piles of dead bodies, starving people, and mass uprsiings.

You only see those in the past communist countries like China and the USSR. Oh yeah, those aren&#39;t communist countries...I have heard the excuse before.

Blame capitalism, I know.

Atleast the "market economy" knows how to feed and house people.


How is homophobia, abandonment of logic, hate, intolerance, failure to plan for the future because "the world is going to end soon", holy war, racism, sexism, regression, belief that all those different will go to hell, and then teaching your kids the same thing harmful to anybody or anything?


I&#39;m sure there are plenty of non-religious people who express those qualities as well; particualrly street gangs.

Your stereotype is based on ignorance.


We just claim that religion is false and oppressive, and we have evidence to support that claim, unlike you.

If it is "false and oppresive" then why do so many people belong to a church? Are they masochists? Are they stupid and ignorant? Why are you anti-religion and most people aren&#39;t? Are you just smarter and better than them? That&#39;s what it sounds like what you are saying?

Remember, nobody forces them to join it so don&#39;t bring up slavery or rape in this discussion.


Since when do little pieces of paper with no material value that represent debts have to do with actual needs or actual work?

Things cost money, to get money...one needs to work. It&#39;s really not that complicated.


re you seriously suggesting that if none of our labour was stolen from us we&#39;d do nothing. Fuck off

Nothing is stolen from you. You certainly own the wages that you have EARNED.

But I guess you could say that your "time has been stolen" from you, but what else are you going to do with it? You have 8 hours for sleep, 8 hours for work, 1 hour sitting in a traffic jam, so that leaves about 7 hours for yourself.

You can do whatever you want with that time, as long as it doesnt&#39; break the law.

Sounds like a good arrangement if you ask me.

[Eleutherios]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 13 2006, 05:52 PM

According to Christianity, God is. God, the invisible, undetectable, totalitarian dictator of the entire universe. The hymns are sung in praise of this thing, teaching children that they have to obey every one of his rules or they will be burnt in God&#39;s big underground gas chamber for all eternity. Once you teach children to accept this cosmic tyranny, it is a very simple matter to get them to accept earthly tyrannies. As Mikhail Bakunin so eloquently put it:

According to certain sects of Christianity, particularly fundamentalism.
In my experience, pretty much all sects of Christianity say that God is the one in power, and that his rules are unquestionable because they are the product of an intelligence far greater than any human&#39;s. Of course, in a God-driven universe, there is no democracy regarding things like what should be considered a sin, how the universe should be run, what should happen to us after we die, and so forth. There is only dictatorship. God, according to all Christians, is the ultimate law-giver, is he not?

[Capitalist Lawyer]

In my experience, pretty much all sects of Christianity say that God is the one in power, and that his rules are unquestionable because they are the product of an intelligence far greater than any human&#39;s. Of course, in a God-driven universe, there is no democracy regarding things like what should be considered a sin, how the universe should be run, what should happen to us after we die, and so forth. There is only dictatorship. God, according to all Christians, is the ultimate law-giver, is he not?

That&#39;s YOUR experience, but really, it&#39;s just a guide on how to live one&#39;s life...help your neighbor, express humility, pro-create....etc. But of course, there are some who concentrate only on the hell fire and damnation aspects of it and they are idiots.

If that&#39;s true about the Christian gospel, then who invented this myth? Who was the first human to sit down and say the word, "God"?

Because it worked pretty fucking well.

[Anti-Red]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 13 2006, 06:10 PM

In my experience, pretty much all sects of Christianity say that God is the one in power, and that his rules are unquestionable because they are the product of an intelligence far greater than any human&#39;s. Of course, in a God-driven universe, there is no democracy regarding things like what should be considered a sin, how the universe should be run, what should happen to us after we die, and so forth. There is only dictatorship. God, according to all Christians, is the ultimate law-giver, is he not?

That&#39;s YOUR experience, but really, it&#39;s just a guide on how to live one&#39;s life...help your neighbor, express humility, pro-create....etc. But of course, there are some who concentrate only on the hell fire and damnation aspects of it and they are idiots.

If that&#39;s true about the Christian gospel, then who invented this myth? Who was the first human to sit down and say the word, "God"?

Because it worked pretty fucking well.
If one is to say God is just a way of controlling people and that that is the only thing the Bible is about, then the same thing can be made about Karl Marx.

[Janus]

then the same thing can be made about Karl Marx.
No Marxists are ever that dogmatic. Some agree with his ideas but not with others.

However, religions force you to agree with their religious books; it is an inherent control.

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 13 2006, 05:52 PM

Not only that, but churches continue to endorse politicians. Churches benefit politicians in this way, as most will recommend giving money to a certain cause or candidate based on that particular denomination&#39;s doctrine.

Teachers and labor unions endorse politicians as well. It&#39;s ok for them to engage in that sort of activity but but a minority of religious people and their churches can&#39;t?
Teachers have far, FAR less sway than relegious organisations. A labour union is essenmtially a political organisation anyway and as such there is nothing wrong with their endorsment of politicians.




Somehow, I do.

You missed my point, by a long shot. I said if the system is so bad and people are being screwed by it, then there would be massive piles of dead bodies, starving people, and mass uprsiings.

You only see those in the past communist countries like China and the USSR. Oh yeah, those aren&#39;t communist countries...I have heard the excuse before.

Blame capitalism, I know.

Atleast the "market economy" knows how to feed and house people. The Market Economy can fuck off, it is the one that causes all the poverty and starvation especially in China and the USSR by strangling them and holding back rescources.



How is homophobia, abandonment of logic, hate, intolerance, failure to plan for the future because "the world is going to end soon", holy war, racism, sexism, regression, belief that all those different will go to hell, and then teaching your kids the same thing harmful to anybody or anything?


I&#39;m sure there are plenty of non-religious people who express those qualities as well; particualrly street gangs. Tu Quoque. You fail.




We just claim that religion is false and oppressive, and we have evidence to support that claim, unlike you.

If it is "false and oppresive" then why do so many people belong to a church? Are they masochists? Are they stupid and ignorant? Why are you anti-religion and most people aren&#39;t? Are you just smarter and better than them? That&#39;s what it sounds like what you are saying? Because people have always belonged to churches and so see no reason to abadon their devotion to the sky wizard. Some are stupid and ignoratn, some are just ignorant of the fact that their sky wzard is not there.



Since when do little pieces of paper with no material value that represent debts have to do with actual needs or actual work?

Things cost money, to get money...one needs to work. It&#39;s really not that complicated. Only under market economy, which I have stated can fuck off.



re you seriously suggesting that if none of our labour was stolen from us we&#39;d do nothing. Fuck off

Nothing is stolen from you. You certainly own the wages that you have EARNED.
. No dice for that one I&#39;m afraid - the wage is the capitalist giving back a little bit of what he has stolen.

[Ol' Dirty]

is a fundamentally harmful institution and therefore must be opposed.


If it&#39;s so harmful, then why is it still around? Why do so many people belong to a church?

Mostly out of fear that they won&#39;t be allowed into "heaven" if they don&#39;t. That&#39;s how the preists ann "prophets" getcha: fear&#33; That&#39;s what religion&#39;s based around, fear, lies and hate. Every once in a while, there will be one good-hearted person that is religious because they sincerely want to help people, and they sincerely believe. But most of them are just cowards and conformists just waiting for the next big thing.


Capitalism is harmful, it&#39;s still around.


You&#39;re obviously in the minority there.

Apparently not. :rolleyes:


And if it is so harmful, then why do so many support it?

To maintain the status quo, those in power will often do whatever it takes to keep it that way&#33; Slavery was an institution in the American South in up until 165, the Plebian-Patrician clace relationship in Roma, Italy, until the Germanic Invasions and the rise of the Eastern Empire, Hereditary Rule in "Great" Britain, which hasn&#39;t fully disipated, though the royal family is little more than a figurehead, and today in modern bourgoise society, Yet you still support that&#33; That makes you a masochist, to use your own terminology.


Why do so many people buy into the crap that you communists deem "harmful"?


Are people masochists?

In a societal sense, yes, world society is very masochistic, but not neccisarily all people.

Think about this: we engage each other in armed conflict allmost daily, kill each other often, starve each other to death, try to gain position over each other so we may enslave each other, begrudge each other to the point of war, belittle each other to gain merit from our peers, hate each other evily, spread lies (race, objective truths, steryotypes) to and of each other for our own gain, derive pleasure from each others pain for aour own comfort, prostitute and sell each other to support ourselves, and impose ourselve on eac other to "win" the game of life. Masochistic? The way our culture and socio-economic stru culture is geared, what the hell else would you excpect? :huh:


Indoctrinated?

Yes. Ever watch Fox News? It&#39;s saturated with Right-wing Propaganda&#33; That&#39;s why the United States Military uses is it as a news station for it&#39;s combatants.


Stupid and ignorant?

Some are stupd, but most are ignorant. Not that that neccisarily makes them bad people, they simply haven&#39;t learned any other way.

[encephalon]

Jesus told me to tell you guys that the tooth fairy is backed up on orders, what with all the bad health and all, so expect to have your teeth continue rotting underneath your pillow for at least four days.

[power... UNLIMITED POWER&#33;]

QUOTE


QUOTE
How is homophobia, abandonment of logic, hate, intolerance, failure to plan for the future because &#092;"the world is going to end soon&#092;", holy war, racism, sexism, regression, belief that all those different will go to hell, and then teaching your kids the same thing harmful to anybody or anything?




I&#092;&#39;m sure there are plenty of non-religious people who express those qualities as well; particualrly street gangs.

Tu Quoque. You fail.


Oh dear&#33; id communismum semper malum erat. et tu semper bullshittos magnos loqueris. sed quid expectabatis? :rolleyes:

Anyway this is an interesting issue. I would have to agree with anti here in that religion does indeed keep people honest. When the pope died crime in Poland disappeared for two weeks. Amazing that. Peronally I dont beleive in God and I dont need him to interfere in my life with his morality. As an atheits we are free to live as nature intended. Anti-red, you think you would rampage if it were not for religion? You are right. Most people definitely would. Atheists like us however do not have to listen to the moral law of a God which may or may not exist.

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 13 2006, 03:54 PM
Last time I checked, attending a church wasn&#39;t against the law.


this has no relevance to the form of your argument.

your question was silly, because it assumed that institutional longevity points to its "good."

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by Anti&#045;[email protected] 13 2006, 06:21 PM

If one is to say God is just a way of controlling people and that that is the only thing the Bible is about, then the same thing can be made about Karl Marx.
the bible is a book of mythologies. it can make no claim to scientific observation, or facticity.

karl marx was simply a man with some political and economic ideas. some of those ideas can make great claim to scientific observation, and facticity.

if people follow karl marx as a god, it indicates nothing about karl marx himself, nor does it indicate anything about his ideas. it only points to a choice someone&#39;s making.. a choice, in my opinion, that misses the point of communism.

so, you can use karl marx to better understand certain ideas.. or, in your example, you can use karl marx to justify anything, if you&#39;d go that far.. but, with the bible, you have no choice: you HAVE to use it to justify anything and everything, as it has no other function.

[yns_mr]

first of all i wanna say that all of the the communists arent atheist and dont need to be an athesit. Communism is a method of governing people, provides them with very good and equal living standarts. I think the reason of collapsing of soviet union is religion. They had attempted to interfere people&#39;s beliefs and forced muslim people toı be an atheist so the soviet union collapsed. But Cuba didnt do the same thing and although it has been 56 years since Fidel revolted Batista and started governing Cuba with socialist regime Cuba i still a strong country againist USA. Fidel hasnt forced the resident of Cuba to be an atheist although he is an atheist. He is respectful.

[Janus]

I would have to agree with anti here in that religion does indeed keep people honest. When the pope died crime in Poland disappeared for two weeks.
And crime also "dissappeared" when the Beatles came to the US and performed for the first time. What&#39;s your point?


Communism is a method of governing people
I&#39;m not sure about your word choice there but there will be no government in a communist society.


They had attempted to interfere people&#39;s beliefs and forced muslim people toı be an atheist so the soviet union collapsed
No, they left the Muslims alone. If they had interfered, there would&#39;ve been a lot more resistance to the Communist Party.

[yns_mr]

[/QUOTE]No, they left the Muslims alone. If they had interfered, there would&#39;ve been a lot more resistance to the Communist Party.[QUOTE]


are you sure that the stalinist regime didnt force muslim people to be an atheist???


What about camps in siberia which still exist and where muslim people were tortured during stalinist regime??????

[Comrade-Z]

are you sure that the stalinist regime didnt force muslim people to be an atheist???

There was a discussion (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=46943&view=findpost&p=1292028722) about this recently. Actually up until Stalin religion had been rather tolerated. Stalin was significantly harder on religion than his predecessors, at least until WWII came and Stalin felt he needed to support religion once again to conjure up patriotic sentiment.

There was also an independent volunteer organization in the USSR during the 1920s called the "Society of the Godless." They went around ridiculing and disparaging religious groups.

But I don&#39;t think there was ever any point at which all places of public worship were closed down in the USSR. By the 1930s the number had decreased down into the hundreds or even dozens, but by the 1950s the number of places was back again into the thousands. Consult wikipedia and its "religion in the USSR" article for that.