Something In Common?

[Anti-Red]

You guys all hate fascists, and so do I, but let me point some things out. Fascists for one, are collectivists and anti-individualists and so are you. Fascists are anti-capitalist and so are you. Fascists want to force their ideology down people's throats and so do you, yet you deny imperialism but the Soviet Union was a red empire if I ever saw one. Fascists are militant, and so are you. I challenge one of you to point out the difference between you and fascists. Racism does not count because there are many fascists (including American Fascist Party) that are non-racist and Nazis are not fascists.

P.S. Why do you call us cappies fascist because we are the dead opposite of fascism?

[Comrade Marcel]

Someone please move this post to OI.

In the meantime, anyone who actually doesn't understand this can start here:

http://individual.utoronto.ca/mrodden/study/fascism.htm

http://marxists.org/glossary/terms/f/a.htm#fascism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[Shadowlegion]

the ultimate showing of irony. fascism on an anti-fascism forum... although I do not agree with all of his points, I've seen plenty of people pretty much get shunned for believing different from the popular belief here.. being one of them. long time ago though.

also, fascism isn't limited to capitalist governments, it's just a matter of what you want to believe though.

fascism
n : a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical
government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)

thought that was generally accepted. in a more complex definition you might find something like "allowing no political opposition or dissent."

[Si Pinto]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 10 2006, 02:39 AM
P.S. Why do you call us cappies fascist because we are the dead opposite of fascism?
Here's hoping :rolleyes:

[Global_Justice]

fascism favours corporatism and the left doesn't. fascism is usually extreme-nationalism and the left isn't. fascism is totalitarian and most people on the left are anti-totalitarian. fascism is anti-rationalism and the left isn't. fascism is patriarchal and the left is not (or at least shouldn't be) fascism is also often racist and homosexual and the left is not.

so, in short, they are idealogical opposites....

........................................Fascism... ..........Socialism

Nationalism..........................Yes.......... .........No
Totalitarian..........................Yes......... ..........No
Rationalism............................No......... ...........Yes
Patriarchal............................Yes........ ...........No
Racism/Homosexual...............Yes..................No
Democratic............................No.......... ..........Yes(well hopefully, although some views of some people on here scare me)

[Comrade Marcel]

Global, I think you meant homophobic, not homosexual.. :lol: thought the nazis where roumored to be full of homoeroticism.

[Shadowlegion]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 03:13 PM
fascism favours corporatism and the left doesn't. fascism is usually extreme-nationalism and the left isn't. fascism is totalitarian and most people on the left are anti-totalitarian. fascism is anti-rationalism and the left isn't. fascism is patriarchal and the left is not (or at least shouldn't be) fascism is also often racist and homosexual and the left is not.

so, in short, they are idealogical opposites....
that sounds great and all up until the point you see the far left implementing fascism in order to get their points accross as if they are infallible. Simply arguing and being slightly moderate or different on one issue or another will and has gotten people pretty much restricted from even doing anything except opposing ideologies, if that. Benevolent ideals and policy don't always make benevolent reality.. the fact that you won't let so called "fascists" even voice themselves without being shoveled off to a corner of the forum is general oppression and fascist in nature. I am a leftist, but I don't feel that shouting down someone trying to speak on a college campus to try and stop them from speaking or generally killing any sort of debate besides internal and superficial debate really helps any causes of mine or anyone on the left. It's fairly hard to win hearts and minds when you won't let anyone else really speak if they go outside the general syntax.

[Comrade Marcel]

Limiting fascists in not fascistic; it's called common-sense. This is a board for leftists, and if we wanted to listen to fascist puke we would go to fascist boards. those of us who want to debate people in OI can go there. It's pretty simple.

Shadowlegion, you make no sense or point, what kind of "leftist" are you?

[Rollo]

Not that I have any problem with people sexual preferences but has anybody else noticed that the neo nazis show a lot of homosexual tendencies for people who apparently hate " gay scum ".

[The Resistor]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 10 2006, 02:39 AM
You guys all hate fascists, and so do I, but let me point some things out. Fascists for one, are collectivists and anti-individualists and so are you. Fascists are anti-capitalist and so are you. Fascists want to force their ideology down people's throats and so do you, yet you deny imperialism but the Soviet Union was a red empire if I ever saw one. Fascists are militant, and so are you. I challenge one of you to point out the difference between you and fascists. Racism does not count because there are many fascists (including American Fascist Party) that are non-racist and Nazis are not fascists.

P.S. Why do you call us cappies fascist because we are the dead opposite of fascism?
+-Fascists for one, are collectivists and anti-individualists and so are you.-+

How so anti-idividualists?:

'The freedom of the individual is the precondition of the freedom for all' - Marx

+-Fascists are anti-capitalist and so are you.- +

nothing wrong with anti-capitalism, but you cannot blame people (jews) but you can blame the system. (maybe thats just nazi and then I say only : nothing wrong with anti-capitalism)

+-Fascists want to force their ideology down people's throats and so do you,-+

First of all, most of us just wanna teach, explain. Maybe people like stain did that but why do you think there are different kinds of communisme(marxism, stalinism and such)

+-yet you deny imperialism but the Soviet Union was a red empire if I ever saw one-+

Maybe true, but you can also say the freed other people, from there slave masters. But im not saying that everthing of the SU was good ;)

+- Fascists are militant, and so are you. -+

WE are not millitant, WE are revolutionairy, The SU might have been, but there was no choice: The nazis attacked and later on de USA threat.

+-I challenge one of you to point out the difference between you and fascists.-+

I just did.

+-Why do you call us cappies fascist because we are the dead opposite of fascism?-+

We are '''dead'' opposite of cappies, not facists... The are considerd extrem right wing.


I hope yóu'll read this, because if you don't I wrote this for nothing

[Fidel Follower]

OI please!!! :mellow:

[Global_Justice]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 10 2006, 03:43 PM
Global, I think you meant homophobic, not homosexual.. :lol: thought the nazis where roumored to be full of homoeroticism.
yeah i meant homophobic :o someone must have edited my post :P board fairies?? :unsure:

[Ander]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 11 2006, 07:14 AM
Limiting fascists in not fascistic; it's called common-sense.

Shadowlegion, you make no sense or point, what kind of "leftist" are you?
I'm guessing he's the same kind of leftist as I am.

Although I think it's a good idea to have the OI forum and not let fascists run rampant around the forum, in a real life society everyone should be able to express themselves without repression.

[Zero]

Originally posted by "Jello"
in a real life society everyone should be able to express themselves without repression.

EXACTLY!

Boy, I couldn't have said it any better. Your right, in every society it should be one of the most guarded virtues; the right to be different, and to express a different opinion.

The part I don't get is why your advocating the Fash's right to express their "opinion" of taking their non-metaphysical bat and smacking it into the heads of people who are trying to find a better life for them and their families.

I bet you'll just love their right of expressing their hate in your face at night when your house is firebombed, while they are yelling "Kyke! Jew! Nigger! Red! Commie!"

Theres a difference between hate speech and rational speech. Anybody who decides that they want to blindly discriminate on a group of people based on their race, gender, political affiliation, or what-have-you based not on their actions, but because they are should not be suprised when they are met with strong confrontation from the rational people of the country.

[Anti-Red]

Actually fascism is not about racism. See the American Fascist Party, it is not racist.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 12 2006, 07:42 AM
Actually fascism is not about racism. See the American Fascist Party, it is not racist.
You're right, fascism is not inherently racist. It is, however, inherently authoritarian, anti-rational, anti-communist and anti-democratic, among other things and every fascist regime to date has made a habit of putting it's enemies in mass graves. I'm not content to wait for history to repeat.

Furthermore, most fascists actively began attacking and murdering their enemies whenever they get the smallest foothold in an area.

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 10 2006, 02:39 AM
I challenge one of you to point out the difference between you and fascists.
You've been here how long and you still haven't twigged that the USSR is not communist?

Fascism-Centralised state with absolute power.
Communism-No state.

Fascism-Wealth in the hands of a small elite.
Communism-Wealth shared equally.

Fascism-No democracy.
Communism-Direct democracy with everyone taking part in all decisions relevant to them.

Fascism-Bourgoise syndicates are granted total legislative power in the workplace.
Communism-Everyone collectively makes decisions in the workplace.

Fascism-The individual is subordinate to a state or religion or race.
Communism-The individual is granted complete freedom.

Fascism-Trade Unions obsorbed by the state.
Communism-Independant non-hierarchal workers unions control the workplace.

Fascism-Nationalistic.
Communism-No nations.

Fascism-Industry both privately owned and subordinate to the state.
Communism-Industry publicly owned and independant.

Fascism-Centralisation to control economy in state's interests.
Communism-Directly democratic federations to run economy in public interest.

Fascism-Waged work.
Communism-Useful work.

By the way, fascism IS capitalist you donkey. The definition of capitalist is private ownership of the means of production which is an element of fascism.
Similarities between capitalism and fascism:

Capitalism+Fascism-Private ownership of means of production.

Capitalism+Fascism-Police forces defend the rich's interests and break up working class grassroots organisation.

Capitalism+Fascism-Military used to expand control of foreign markets.

Capitalism+Fascism-Uneven distribution of wealth.

Capitalism+Fascism-Strongest support from bourgoisie and petty bourgoisie.

Capitalism+Fascism-Strongest opposition from the working class.

[ack]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 11:13 AM
fascism favours corporatism and the left doesn't. fascism is usually extreme-nationalism and the left isn't. fascism is totalitarian and most people on the left are anti-totalitarian. fascism is anti-rationalism and the left isn't. fascism is patriarchal and the left is not (or at least shouldn't be) fascism is also often racist and homosexual and the left is not.

so, in short, they are idealogical opposites....

........................................Fascism... ..........Socialism

Nationalism..........................Yes.......... .........No
Totalitarian..........................Yes......... ..........No
Rationalism............................No......... ...........Yes
Patriarchal............................Yes........ ...........No
Racism/Homosexual...............Yes..................No
Democratic............................No.......... ..........Yes(well hopefully, although some views of some people on here scare me)
Wow. You nailed it. I was about to say that. Right on!

[Zero]

Yeah, sorry about not drawing the line between Fascism and Racism, but here in the USA all (or at least all the direct action on their side that I see) Fascist action is asociated with racism in some way. NSM, Neo-Nazi skins, White Seperatists, and the KKK to name a few.

[Tungsten]

Matty_UK

Fascism-Centralised state with absolute power.
Communism-No state.
You're defining communism by intended results instead of it's methodology. I posted comments a few weeks ago about how fallacious that is.

Fascism-Waged work.
Communism-Useful work.
Fascism = Forced work. And who defines "useful"?

By the way, fascism IS capitalist you donkey.
Except that the free market doesn't exist under fascism in any meaningful sense.

The definition of capitalist is private ownership of the means of production which is an element of fascism.
Fascism involves government ownership, not private ownership.

Similarities between capitalism and fascism:

Capitalism+Fascism-Private ownership of means of production.
Sure- Look at how Hitler allowed everyone to produce what they pleased without interference from the state! The rest of the similarities are ridiculous.

[Lord Testicles]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 09:43 PM
Fascism = Forced work. And who defines "useful"?
How can you force someone to do something if there isn't a state to enforce it?

[Tungsten]

Skinz

How can you force someone to do something if there isn't a state to enforce it?
We, the people, can democratically force you to do it. A direct democracy will only work until some groups realise it can be used as a weapon to force others to do their bidding. i.e. pork barreling.

[Matty_UK]

You're defining communism by intended results instead of it's methodology. I posted comments a few weeks ago about how fallacious that is.

Why make assumptions about the methodology? You don't know what I advocate, but I'm not a vanguardist.


Fascism = Forced work. And who defines "useful"?

Useful is maybe a vague word to use, but under communism as I understand it work will be done to achieve a specific objective, not just for the sake of a wage. And being forced work doesn't contradict that it's also waged work.


Except that the free market doesn't exist under fascism in any meaningful sense.

I wasn't aware free market and capitalism are the same thing, although they are related.
I am open to the idea of a free market, but not to the idea of capitalism. Some individualist anarchists believe that without a state a low-level small business capitalism would exist, as gross wealth can only be accumulated with a use of force to back it up. e.g. bankers need a force to ensure debts are repaid, landlords to make sure rents are paid, and entrepreneurs to control unruly workforces. Furthermore, police are required to protect the property of the rich and as your signature states man will plunder what he needs if it is denied to him; and there is nothing wrong with this, unlike accumulating wealth and thereby denying property to other people.

But I disagree with this because it is too difficult to attain, as removal of a state would mean the capitalists would simply buy their own security forces, and defeating the capitalists as well as the state would lead to anarcho-communism anyway.


Fascism involves government ownership, not private ownership.


Sure- Look at how Hitler allowed everyone to produce what they pleased without interference from the state! The rest of the similarities are ridiculous.

Same thing as far as I'm concerned...and no, fascism DOES have private ownership; the fact the government gives the bourgoisie orders does not remove the fact that the bourgoisie are given legal ownership of the means of production. And you say that under fascism that workis forced, true enough, but I understand that the bourgoise corporatist syndicates, not the state, were given the job of "forcing work," and the state merely defending their right to force work. The state was responsible for regulating and controlling what was produced, while the capitalists had complete control over the workforce.

[red team]

And who defines "useful"?

Listed in rank of importance:

1. Physical

2. Safety

3. Social

4. Esteem

5. Self-Actualization

[robo]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 10 2006, 02:39 AM
Racism does not count because there are many fascists (including American Fascist Party) that are non-racist and Nazis are not fascists.


The majority of "fascists" in the USA (at least that i've encountered/heard about/read about) are nazi scum. Ultra-nationalism and racism seem to go hand in hand a lot, and yeah, when you hear about fascists in the US its usually groups like white power skinheads and nsm and shit.

so yeah, "anti-fascism" kind of goes hand in hand with anti-nazism for me and pretty much everyone i know active with antifa

[Si Pinto]

Anyone calling themselves Nazi (outside of german speaking countries anyway) is purely doing it for the uniform wearing, speech making, 45 degree saluting, goose stepping type of crap, trying to hide their racism under their brown shirts and swastikas.

Are these Americans who claim to be Nazi going to implement any 'socialist' elements if they get any power?

You know like nationalised industries and workers rights?

Doubt it.

[Tungsten]

Matty_UK
And being forced work doesn't contradict that it's also waged work.
??? Why bother paying you if they can force you to work for nothing?

I wasn't aware free market and capitalism are the same thing, although they are related.
How are they different? What did you think I'd been talking about to all this time?

Furthermore, police are required to protect the property of the rich and as your signature states man will plunder what he needs if it is denied to him; and there is nothing wrong with this,
There's something wrong with it alright- why bother to work when you can just let some other sucker do it and then plunder his wealth?

unlike accumulating wealth and thereby denying property to other people.
That's disingenuous. We're each entitled to the products of our individual labour, not each others. There's nothing immoral about denying your labour to others. It's not theirs to give or take.

Same thing as far as I'm concerned...and no, fascism DOES have private ownership; the fact the government gives the bourgoisie orders does not remove the fact that the bourgoisie are given legal ownership of the means of production.
...that can be overridden at any time at the whim of the government. That isn't legal private ownership, it's just defacto private ownership. Like saying you can own property, while maintaining that theft of it should be perfectly legal too.

red team

Listed in rank of importance:

1. Physical

2. Safety

3. Social

4. Esteem

5. Self-Actualization
Important to who? Me? Someone else?
My list might look like:

1. My Physical

2. My Safety

3. My Social

4. My Esteem

5. My Self-Actualization

6. Others' Physical

7. Others' Safety

8. Others' Social

9. Others' Esteem

10. Others' Self-Actualization

Not entirely accurate, but you see where your version goes wrong- it fails to include other people in the picture and assumes that other people view what's useful to you as being equal to what's useful to them.

[NoMoreBosses]

I'm against the bird cages.

[LittleMao]

Communism does not force its self down people's throats. Communism will be accepted by the entire country before an uprising takes place. Most countries are militant.
Nazis ARE fascists.

[BobKKKindle$]

yet you deny imperialism but the Soviet Union was a red empire if I ever saw one

I think you will find that most people on this forum accept that the Soviet Union imposed State Capitalism upon eastern Europe following the Second war, and tried to impose its dominance on many third world states during the course of the Cold War in order to counter balance the United States and Nato. It should be further noted that the USSR denied the right of secession to many of its constituent soviets, despite the fact that National determination was enshrined under the FIrst Constitution of 1921. So, yes, The Soviet Union was an imperialist power. I Personally believe that a Socialist Nation State is something of a contradiction in terms; as Workers all over the world hold the same position in the Capitalist Relations of production as someone who sells their labour power as a commodity regardless of their nationality. Please develop what you are trying to sya, I fail to see how this relates to Fascism/Socialism.


Fascists are anti-capitalist and so are you.

Fascists aim to maintain Class Distinctions within a nationalist mode of production known as Corporatism, in which representatives of Buisness, Government, and Workers collude to fulfill the national interest. Socialists aim to destroy all Class Distinctions (and by extension, Class Struggle) through the victory of the Working Class and the establishement of a new relations of production. So your point is invalid. Fascists support the private ownership of the means of production albeit with a nationalist relations of production - we do not. Simple as that


Fascists are militant, and so are you

This is a sweeping genrealisation that fails to take into account the differences within Socialist and Fascist movements. Many Fascists (and sadly, Socialists) have abandoned the seizure of power for the bourgeois political process, the BNP being a clear example. Similairly, many Socialists advocate non-violent resistance as a means of establishing working class victory. Militancy is a strategy that is used when Power cannot be achieved or views cannot be expressed through legal means - being a militant does not make you a fascist or a socialist.


It's not theirs to give or take.

So Why is it that Capitalists, through the private ownership of the means of production, are avaliable to own and therefore recieve the benefits of Commodities that they did not produce, simply because they own the means of production?!

[Sabocat]

Although I think it's a good idea to have the OI forum and not let fascists run rampant around the forum, in a real life society everyone should be able to express themselves without repression.

Liberal bourgeois nonsense.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 08:34 PM
Not that I have any problem with people sexual preferences but has anybody else noticed that the neo nazis show a lot of homosexual tendencies for people who apparently hate " gay scum ".
Like what? :huh: