Talked With A Venezuelan About Chavez

[R_P_A_S]

When it comes to Venezuela and Chavez Im very interested. I personally think he is great. But at the same time I know is not all happy down there. And who to talk to about it better than some Venezuelans.

I met a guy from Venezuela yesterday. and He said that the situation in his country is worst than when Chavez was there. He just got back from a 4 month visit. He said that Socialism is just an other way to stay poor. Obviously this is not true but he says it for a reason right?

He told me people are still poor and that all that shit Chavez talks about is not really happening. People have no work, hight crime and he said "none of us see the money from the Oil"

I'm yet to meet someone from Venezuela who loves Chavez. Well I've only talked to 4 actually about him. and no one approves. OK. and this people are rich or anything. they are avg. middle class venezuelans.

I want to believe that Chavez methods are the right ones and that they are working and that he is making things better for his people. But at the same time I don't really know if this is true. Venezuela ain't no Socialist paradise for sure. But I wonder if he really is taking it to the route. and is he doing the right things.?

[which doctor]

What is the material background of this person you spoke too?

Was he wealthy?

[More Fire for the People]

The problem with Chavez is he represents a semi-militant branch of social democracy. He is simotaneously waging a war with his own government and instituting minimal reform while accomplishing nearly zip for his proletarian base. However, Chavez has created a 'mood for socialism' and his Bolivarian movement will probably move out reformists hands into revolutionary ones.

[R_P_A_S]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 9 2006, 06:41 PM
What is the material background of this person you spoke too?

Was he wealthy?
i said it on my first post. but i guess it wasn't clear. nah he is not wealthy. he is married and he is and avg. middle class guy. he is 29 lived in venezuela all his life up until 2003 when he moved to the states. he says he goes back twice a year

[godisdead]

i know a few venezuelanos.....


some from middle class and some from poorer backgrounds.


the middle class is generally closely tied to the upper classes, oweing much to the economic diasters of the 70s that saw many in the middle class join the poor after oil prices collapsed. the middle class in venezuela resembles the upper middle class in the US in manners (large homes, maids) and in politics (economically con. and aganinst reforms to aid the poor).

it depends on who u ask and what source u use, and how one defines poor, but newhere from 60% to 80% of the pop. lives in poverty.


the venezuelanos i know from poorer backgrounds r also all afro-venezulanos...the fact that chavez is part african roots and part indig. roots to them is a HUGE deal. they all support chavez and his "reforms".

as far as what chavez is doing....its too hard to say from the outside. at the very least he has risen the expectations of the poor ppl and showed them that their voices and demands matter. not a small feat in latin american nation where most poor ppl have resigned themselves to seeking escape from poverty and misery in the afterlife.

:ph34r:

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I met a guy from Venezuela yesterday. and He said that the situation in his country is worst than when Chavez was there. He just got back from a 4 month visit. He said that Socialism is just an other way to stay poor. Obviously this is not true but he says it for a reason right?

He told me people are still poor and that all that shit Chavez talks about is not really happening. People have no work, hight crime and he said "none of us see the money from the Oil"

I think it is pretty safe to say that crime has increased under Chavez (has anyone actually claimed oterhwise...?). And apparently, Caracas has become one of the most unsafe cities in South America.

I don't think it is black and white, though. Most likely both good and bad things has happened since 1998.

And any rumours you might hear, should be taken with a pinch of salt.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 08:49 PM

I met a guy from Venezuela yesterday. and He said that the situation in his country is worst than when Chavez was there. He just got back from a 4 month visit. He said that Socialism is just an other way to stay poor. Obviously this is not true but he says it for a reason right?

He told me people are still poor and that all that shit Chavez talks about is not really happening. People have no work, hight crime and he said "none of us see the money from the Oil"

I think it is pretty safe to say that crime has increased under Chavez (has anyone actually claimed oterhwise...?). And apparently, Caracas has become one of the most unsafe cities in South America.

I don't think it is black and white, though. Most likely both good and bad things has happened since 1998.

And any rumours you might hear, should be taken with a pinch of salt.
More bullshit thaty NWOG is spewing, fuck everyday you say shit that you can't back-up.

Funny thing was, just awhile ago you were praising the bourgeois-democratic process as a way to peacfully transist to socialism; and that it's "working" in Venezuela. Now you're bashing the place. Make up your fucking mind!

My comrades all went to Venezuela last year to the World Festival of Democratic Youth; came back enthusiatic about Chavez. They all walked around Caracus and felt safe.

[R_P_A_S]

well any big city is not safe. Rio, Buenos Aires, Lima, Mexico City, Los Angeles. whatever. theres always going to be crime and what not.

But it seems that the Venezolanos I've spoken too always say the same shit. "Caracas esta echa una mierda ahorita" basically Caracas is turned to a piece of shit" they all say that.

The guy i talked to also referred to Chavez as a Dictator. He says everyones signatures were and are being recorded into records and that some Venezolanos who supported the coup in 2002 of chavez are like third class citizens, they cant vote. they get no benefits, and no one will hire them. they are pretty much descriminated by chavez's goverment.

[Dean]

The middle class can be compared to the "Petty Bourgeoisie" of Marx's writing. They have stake in keeping their class society.

I don't know about the other 3 Venezuelans you met, but if this person can travel to and from the nation he is by no means poor. I am middle class but I do not have the funds to travel to and from Venezuela. I would expect that this man, and maybe the others, are making their own monetary losses appear to be an impoverishment of the Venezuelan people. His looking down on the poor is easy to translate into apparent poverty. And the crime? The new administration has made it acceptable (not legally, but with inaction) to ransack the houses of the upper middle class and the rich.

[R_P_A_S]

if you are middle class and make like 1500 to 2000 a month in dollars you can very well go visit your country once a year.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Originally posted by Comrade Marcel+Jul 9 2006, 08:55 PM--> (Comrade Marcel @ Jul 9 2006, 08:55 PM)
[email protected] 9 2006, 08:49 PM

I met a guy from Venezuela yesterday. and He said that the situation in his country is worst than when Chavez was there. He just got back from a 4 month visit. He said that Socialism is just an other way to stay poor. Obviously this is not true but he says it for a reason right?

He told me people are still poor and that all that shit Chavez talks about is not really happening. People have no work, hight crime and he said "none of us see the money from the Oil"

I think it is pretty safe to say that crime has increased under Chavez (has anyone actually claimed oterhwise...?). And apparently, Caracas has become one of the most unsafe cities in South America.

I don't think it is black and white, though. Most likely both good and bad things has happened since 1998.

And any rumours you might hear, should be taken with a pinch of salt.
More bullshit thaty NWOG is spewing, fuck everyday you say shit that you can't back-up.

Funny thing was, just awhile ago you were praising the bourgeois-democratic process as a way to peacfully transist to socialism; and that it's "working" in Venezuela. Now you're bashing the place. Make up your fucking mind!

My comrades all went to Venezuela last year to the World Festival of Democratic Youth; came back enthusiatic about Chavez. They all walked around Caracus and felt safe.[/b]
Okay. You need to calm down, and read. You need to calm down, and stop attacking people.

That crime is rising (or at least have been rising since 1998) in Venezuela is an observation, not "bashing the place".

If you can't stand people who think independently and who will point out that not everything is paradise, if you cannot deal with people observing things as they happen and say what they see happen out loud, if you cannot deal with people who comment on reality, even if that reality does not fit your view/ideology, then fine, but don't attack other people.

Unlike you "I can make up my mind" without having to see things in black and white. I can write things that will not always fit the world image of some dogmatists.

I don't really feel you are contributing. You have gone after me and talked shit about me. I do not like that. As you can see I am getting tired of this.

Understand?

[Morag]

if you are middle class and make like 1500 to 2000 a month in dollars you can very well go visit your country once a year.

You live in a nice world, because where I come from, 2,000 times 12 is 24,000. Which makes 20,000 after taxes, which is below poverty here. And if you're taking four month vacations home, that means, if you make 2,000 a month, your losing 8,000 of 24,000, making your annual average only 16,000. I know I can't afford to take four months off work, and I make 2,000 a month (office job- eighteen years of education finally paid off, except for the "below poverty level thing) and have massive amounts of family in the Caribbean who I would like to see, but really really can't afford to. My conclusion would be that this guy isn't making 2,000 a month but much more, which plays into my thought that he's likely upper-middle class back in Venezuela, if he had the education and skills to remain in the middle-class after only three years in a new economy.

Moreover, when people talk of the unemployment in Venezuela, which seems incredibly high, they don't necessarily take into account that quite a large minority of Venezuelans do not work in the established workforce, but rather in casual employment, meaning that they could be working full-time, but are not listed as such by the government or by IMF/UN stats, who don't consider such things. They also forget that UN stats, which generally are what people base analysis off, do not count women working in the home as being employed (or at least did not very recently). Further, as many on these boards would know, many many adults are being trained- ei., learning to read, write, ect.- so that they can find jobs and so that the economy is broader.

I agree though that poverty isn't ending at rapid rates. However, there is fairly steady progress (if you discount the fall during the bosses lockout), and the levels are now at least on par with other South American nations. Further, the education and infastructural funding that are underway will pay off down the road more then hand-outs or just getting all the illiterate adults jobs building or farming or digging or whatever. So, while the standard-of-living stats are not astounding, there is steady progress and a strong foundation for the future. Which is progress nonetheless, which is more then can be said for many developing countries. There are levels of poverty after all- in most o the world, 2,000 a month would make me incredibly wealthy, while in Canada, I'm poor. More than 1.1 billion live on less then a dollar a day, or "abject" poverty. Last I heard, people had stopped straving to death in Venezuela, so that's progress.

As to the complaints of political repression, I've met a lot of Venezuelans here in Canada, and watch the news from many different sources, and from what I can piece together, in a way that I think is balanced, at least, is that things are getting better politically for the masses while those who used to have great sway politically are frustrated because they no longer do. But if anyone has proof, one way or another, I'd really appreciate seeing it. There are reports I've read from... can't recall, saying that the Venezuelan government interfered with the press nine or maybe nineteen times in 2004; however, the same report claimed the American government had done so over three hundred times, while the Canadian Prime Minister is in a row with the parliamentary press core as they accuse him of restricting their collective rights and the freedom of the press, so called democratic values. So it's hard to analyse the level of political freedom and whether things are better or worse- and those are things that need to be viewed from a long-term gaze anyway. Are things better politically, for the masses, then they were a political generation ago? Yes. Is that good enough? No.

Also, to point it out, crime rose in Thatcherite England, too. She simply said it was because people had more things to have stolen and poor people were lazy. The most radical rise in crime, however, was violent crime and violence against women, not property crime. When you say "crime is on the rise," you need to clarify what kind of crime. If a few posessions are stolen, that's one thing; if people are randomly targetted for violence, that's another.

[Shadowlegion]

I don't like chavez too much. He says exactly what his masses who are mainly in poverty want to hear. classic class warfare, you are apparently evil based upon your wealth, and not your actions. He has the greatest reason to keep people poor, so there will always be people pissed enough at anyone with wealth to vote for him. Just my opinion.

[Marion]

Well worth reading the following article on Chavez. Very very very long, but well written and raises a number of interesting points...

http://www.anarkismo.net/newswire.php?story_id=3378

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 08:19 PM
but newhere from 60% to 80% of the pop. lives in poverty.
I've generally seen statistics on the percentage of people living in poverty in venezuela to be around 37%... down about 13% since Chavez took power...

John Pilger seems to paint a rather positive image of Chavez's Venezuela, not exactly in the revolutionary sense, but it's fairly interesting nonetheless... in this article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1773908,00.html) there are quotes from some Venezuelans who are obviously down with Chavez. I've never actually spoken to any venezuelans about Chavez, although from pictures of pro-chavez demonstrations I've seen he seems to be quite popular, as well as stuff shown in the revolution will not be televised... It's obviously gonna be dependent on class though...

[Ian]

I'll get Genaro (Guardia Bolivarano) to post here

[Ol' Dirty]

I just recently watched a DVD called "Chavez, Venezuela, andthe new Latin America." It was a great film, made by Celida Guevera, daughter of Che.

It talked about the histor of Chavez' "Bolivarian Revolution" and how it was affecting people in Venezuela. One story was about how Cuban doctors were coming into Venezuela to set up health centers in Caracas. Another was a massive rally held by around a thousand or more Venezuelans (ask them about Chavez, and they wil most likely go for him") supporting him.

Overall, I support what he is doing over there, and I hope that he's re-elected.

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 03:09 PM
Overall, I support what he is doing over there, and I hope that he's re-elected.
by the new constitution can't one person only serve 3x six year terms in office?

correct me if I'm wrong but I thought this is chavez's third term?

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by Kevis+Jul 12 2006, 01:23 PM--> (Kevis @ Jul 12 2006, 01:23 PM)
[email protected] 12 2006, 03:09 PM
Overall, I support what he is doing over there, and I hope that he's re-elected.
by the new constitution can't one person only serve 3x six year terms in office?

correct me if I'm wrong but I thought this is chavez's third term? [/b]
Ah. I thaught that the law was different in Ven, but I guess I was wrong. Thank you for correcting me.

[Comrade-Z]

i said it on my first post. but i guess it wasn't clear. nah he is not wealthy. he is married and he is and avg. middle class guy. he is 29 lived in venezuela all his life up until 2003 when he moved to the states. he says he goes back twice a year

If he's middle class, then take everything he says about Chavez with a grain of salt. Especially if he is wealthy enough to move to the U.S. That should be a red flag right there.

What's really important is what this guy criticizes Chavez on (because there are legitimate issues on which one can criticize Chavez). Not enough grassroots democracy? Not enough aimed at reducing poverty? Too reformist? Is he co-opting and de-radicalizing rank-and-file initiatives? Or is this guy just trying to protect his class priviledge and parroting the typical middle class and ruling class lies about Chavez being a dictator? (As if all the earlier rulers in Venezuela were more democratic than Chavez. Ha! Regardless of whether Chavez is a dictator or not, Chavez is rather democratic when compared to most of the other regimes in Venezuela and Latin America over the years. Of course, someone from the middle class won't think this because, after all, someone like Jimenez did listen to the middle class and was democratic towards the middle class (and the ruling class and U.S. imperialism--to the exclusion of the lower classes).


He says everyones signatures were and are being recorded into records and that some Venezolanos who supported the coup in 2002 of chavez are like third class citizens, they cant vote. they get no benefits, and no one will hire them. they are pretty much descriminated by chavez's goverment.

And why would this be unusual? C'mon, that's extremely light treatment. If there was an attempted coup against the U.S. government, and the coup was foiled, you could be sure that all of those connected with the coup would be killed for treason.

[Dean]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 09:51 PM
if you are middle class and make like 1500 to 2000 a month in dollars you can very well go visit your country once a year.
i dont make that. i make very little, and im saving for a house. I could be makng what you claim, but I am in college right now.

[Tekun]

To say that Chavez has revived or injected socialism into Venezuela is ludicrous
The workers are not in control of the means of production, nor are they in control of the government nor the politics
Socialism is still a long ways...however, in a semi-industrialized nation such as Venezuela, socialism if ever implemented, could prove beneficial and successful

Chavez has appealed to the masses of poor and exploited ppl by creating this wave of nationalism and anti-US sentiment
Proof of which was seen when South America defeated the Free Trade Agreement that Bush tried to push
Most ppl in Central and South America have had a negative outlook on the US gov
To receive the support from these ppl, Chavez has promoted his anti-US and anti-imperialist stance
However, business is still business in Venezuela
Specifically, Chavez's oil partners are content with the current situation in Venezuela
This occurs while thousands if not millions of Venezuelan's have yet to see improvements to their economic or social conditions
The truth is...that there are still severe economic conditions in Venezuela
Like any other Central or South American country, Venezuela suffers from mass poverty, crime, and underdevelopment

According to the World Factbook (CIA):
Unemployment rate: 12.3
Population under poverty line: 47% (1998)
External debt: $39.79 billion
Literacy: 93.4
GDP per capita: $6100

According to the World Bank:
Population under poverty line: 88%
Infant mortality: 18/1000

According to Frontline/World (PBS):
Unemployment rate: 22%
Population under poverty line: 85%

According to INTERPOL data:
Murder rate: 33.2 per 100,000
Rape rate: 12.3 per 100,000
Aggravated assault: 105.32 per 100,000
Crime rate rose 43% from 1996-2000

So one of the things that Chavez has to do, is transfer power to the population, so that the population can focus on improving their own conditions

One thing that worries me is that Chavez has tried to push an amendment which would make him president for many years, I forget how many
From my vantage point, it seems that he's become power hungry and does not want to lose the presidency
Those are the first steps towards a dictatorship, Im not saying he is, but it seems he wants to head in that direction
In addition to this, he's begun to arm the military
Which is positive if its to defend Venezuela from the imperialists
But in case that there is an uprising against his rule, he could squash such an action with force

Instead of galvanizing a the workers councils and transferring more power to them, he's thinking of prolonging his presidency
Not the greatest move IMO

[R_P_A_S]

damn. I want to believe this guy is good. but fuck he just seems to be en-route to fuck shit up. im confused

[Morag]

I don't like quoting my own stuff, for obvious reasons (it's usually trash), but this essay was written comapring Venezuelan and Chilean development policies in recent years and my prof (who I respect even if he's a rightie) thought it was well researched; a lot of it refers to Chile, sorry. I don't feel like editing it that muc. It's edited for relevancy, and it's the rough draft that has some footnotes in it (though not the corresponding footnotes or bib).

...In marked contrast is Venezuelan performance. Poverty levels- if based solely on the cash-only economy, not taking subsidies and barter into account- are higher, with 48.6% of the population living in poverty in 2003 [subsidies in this case refer to welfare and the like; ECLAC decided to use pre-subsidy levels for poverty level. I cannot confirm that it was done this way for other countries in the survey, and I have my suspicions that it was not]; these numbers, while high, are still on average for the region of Latin America and the Caribbean (ECLAC, 119). Moreover, in 2003 when the statistic was taken, economic activity dropped by 9.4% due to the bosses lock-out of the petroleum industry, which lead to massive unemployment, increased informal employment and a decline in real wages (U.N. 203). This loss of economic activity and employment was offset by government programs that subsidize food and other goods in Venezuela. Growth for 2004 was estimated at 10% (203). Oil revenues account for one-half of the Venezuelan economy but:
"After growing nearly 18 percent last year [2004], the Venezuelan economy
has expanded 9.3 percent for the first half of this year - the fastest
economic growth in the hemisphere. Although the government's detractors
like to say this is just a result of high oil prices… [o]il prices were even
higher and rose much faster in the 1970s. But Venezuela's income per
person actually fell during the 1970s." (Weisbrot, online)

Now the Venezuelan government is able to invest money into social programs. These social programs, such as adult literacy programs, are having an immediate impact. Literacy campaigns have decreased the number of illiterate adults from 11% in 1990 to 6% in 2005, while the Chilean decrease is 2.5% from 1990 levels-6.0% to 3.5% (ECLAC, 99). Enrollment in first-level education was, in 2001 at 88.8% in Chile and at 92.4% in Venezuela (101). Current education funding levels for Venezuela are not available, however, it is accepted that funding has increased substantially, both as a percentage of GDP and of government expenditure (UN, 205), from its 1996 rate of 22.4% of government expenditure in 1996 (Kuczynski, 187 [After the Washington Consensus: Restarting Growth and Reform in Latin America]).
Those who contend that Venezuela is doing worse under Chavez then before his presidency do not take into account social capital. Unfortunately, 1.2 million adults learning to read in one year does not appear in GDP or employment or average income statistics. In fact, 1.2 million adults learning to read detract from such statistics by taking those adults away from their jobs; however, those adults will contribute more to the economy in future years than they could have otherwise. On the social side, there is little point to rolling in money if you can’t read a menu or count change. ...

Health care is another service that can be compared. 83.2% of Chileans, in 1998, did not receive health care when it was needed (IMF, 130). There are 786 residents in Chile for every doctor, while in Venezuela the ratio is 722 to one (ECLAC, 109). In 2003, there were 2.9 hospital beds for every thousand Venezuelans, compared to 2.5 in Chile in 2002 (110). There is no information for 2003 levels in Chile, but the ratio of hospital beds per thousand citizens has been rising every year since 1997. Healtch care, and the governments responsibilities regarding public health, garners its own article in the Venezuelan constitution (you can find the constitution online)....

I drone on for pages about this stuff, sorry; latifundia and expropriation takes up a few pages and I have good resources for those if any one is interested. None of it is really interesting. But I thought that it added to the discussion and it has some evidence that you guys can read on-line. You can find most of the ECLAC and UN stuff on line if you troll their sites, but the IMF report on Chile is I believe only available hardcopy (it was titled Chile's High Growth Economy, but wasn't very persuasive as a model for other countries.)

[Morpheus]

Back in the '70s the Venezuelan government did a similar thing as Chavez, using oil money to fund social programs. When oil prices dropped, the social programs ended. If oil prices drop again, we'll probably see a return to neoliberalism again.

[Morag]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 06:32 AM
Back in the '70s the Venezuelan government did a similar thing as Chavez, using oil money to fund social programs. When oil prices dropped, the social programs ended. If oil prices drop again, we'll probably see a return to neoliberalism again.
Why do you think that? Plus, why do you think oil prices are going to drop significantly? Do you think the Middle East is going to stabilise soon?

[Tekun]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 04:29 AM
damn. I want to believe this guy is good. but fuck he just seems to be en-route to fuck shit up. im confused
As am I, but I think its most wise to look at the social-political-and economic conditions in Venezuela rather than the rhetoric and revolutionary image that Chavez continues to craft around the world
Same goes for Evo Morales in Bolivia

Its easy to play the part, but its harder to implement true revolutionary reforms

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Hospitals lack essential things like medicine. People have to buy medicine, when it is supposed to be free.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6...=chavez&pl=true (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6040762455054819326&q=chavez&pl=true)

[Marion]

To what extent has the current government centralised power in itself and to what extent has it helped increase working class self-activity? Are the Bolivarian circles valid attempts at organisation or little more than an attempt to co-opt the working class into accepting the role of the state?

[Luís Henrique]

To what extent has the current government centralised power in itself and to what extent has it helped increase working class self-activity?

Apparently, the reactionary coup-d'etat in 2002 unleashed popular mobilisation beyond the control of the government. Since the government owes its restoration to such popular mobilisation, it depends a lot on it.

If they are comfortable with that situation, that is a different question. I would bet not, but based mostly in principles. The actual situation, hopefully, will prove me wrong.


Are the Bolivarian circles valid attempts at organisation or little more than an attempt to co-opt the working class into accepting the role of the state?

They certainly are not "an attempt" to co-opt the working class... but they might as well end doing exactly so.

The situation in Venezuela is highly paradoxal. First, the traditional Venozolan left seems to have practically vanished; a populist support for Chávez has replaced reasoned class struggle efforts. Second, something similar seems to have happened to the right: the bourgeoisie is no longer able to direct the State by itself - and seems increasingly unable to lead even the economy (so, like in the two crazy men joke, "so there must have been other two people").

I think that the peculiar evolution of Venezuela may be related to the increasing importance of oil in its economy.

Luís Henrique

[FatFreeMilk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 03:10 AM
I'll get Genaro (Guardia Bolivarano) to post here
What happened Ian? I haven't spoken to him in like a year now...I hope he's alright.

For those who don't know, he was straight outta V-town.